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RemoFlyer
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Qantas Looking At MEL-DFW And SYD-ORD

Sun Nov 15, 2015 6:46 pm

As part of the new JV of AA and QF, AA CEO Doug Parker and QF CEO Alan Joyce had a couple of news conferences in Wellington (announcing LAX AKL) and Sydney (media lunch celebrating new SYD LAX service). The following comments came out of the latter media lunch.

http://australianaviation.com.au/201...kin-in-the-game-says-qantas-chief/

Quote:
But Joyce flagged more new routes and opportunities are yet to come. such as Qantas operating Melbourne-Dallas Fort Worth with its forthcoming Boeing 787-9s.

and

Quote:
“We also said today the aircraft can do Sydney to Chicago, again that’s a huge American hub in Chicago as well. So there’s lots of opportunities this partnership opens up potentially,” Joyce continued.

I also fully expect AA to add LAX MEL and DFW AKL when the appropriate aircrafts come onboard.
 
rta
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RE: Qantas Looking At MEL-DFW And SYD-ORD

Sun Nov 15, 2015 6:48 pm

SYD-ORD is ~9232 mi per GCM. That's going to be a long flight.
 
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thekorean
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RE: Qantas Looking At MEL-DFW And SYD-ORD

Sun Nov 15, 2015 6:48 pm

SYD-ORD gotta be at least 1000 mi longer than SIN-EWR.

Why the hell are they doing that? Just feed ORD passengers to DFW.
 
rta
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RE: Qantas Looking At MEL-DFW And SYD-ORD

Sun Nov 15, 2015 6:50 pm

Quoting thekorean (Reply 2):
SYD-ORD gotta be at least 1000 mi longer than SIN-EWR.

SYD-ORD is a few hundred miles shorter than SIN-EWR.
 
RemoFlyer
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RE: Qantas Looking At MEL-DFW And SYD-ORD

Sun Nov 15, 2015 6:52 pm

Quoting rta (Reply 1):
SYD-ORD is ~9232 mi per GCM. That's going to be a long flight.

Yes - apparently QF has been told that the 789 will be able to handle that.

[Edited 2015-11-15 11:06:08]
 
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thekorean
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RE: Qantas Looking At MEL-DFW And SYD-ORD

Sun Nov 15, 2015 6:52 pm

Quoting rta (Reply 3):

Still makes no sense.
 
RemoFlyer
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RE: Qantas Looking At MEL-DFW And SYD-ORD

Sun Nov 15, 2015 6:56 pm

Quoting thekorean (Reply 5):
Still makes no sense.

Why would QA care about what makes sense to you ?

Arent you the poster that once said that US airlines were soon going to be online travel agencies selling tickets on foreign carriers for international travel ?
 
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Miami
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RE: Qantas Looking At MEL-DFW And SYD-ORD

Sun Nov 15, 2015 6:59 pm

SYD-ORD on a 787 is not possible. The 789 max range is 8,790 miles. SYD-ORD is 9,232 miles.

Quoting RemoFlyer (Reply 4):
QA

You mean QF?

Quoting thekorean (Reply 5):
Still makes no sense.

Exactly. If anything, why not just do SYD-LAX-ORD? And is there really a market for such a flight?

Quoting thekorean (Reply 2):
Why the hell are they doing that? Just feed ORD passengers to DFW.

  
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RemoFlyer
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RE: Qantas Looking At MEL-DFW And SYD-ORD

Sun Nov 15, 2015 7:09 pm

787-9 official range is approx 8300 nautical miles or approx 9500 miles - weight and wind restrictions can of course bring the number down.

Obviously QF is seriously considering these two, otherwise they would not announce these specific routes at a news conference !!

[Edited 2015-11-15 11:12:53]
 
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kngkyle
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RE: Qantas Looking At MEL-DFW And SYD-ORD

Sun Nov 15, 2015 7:10 pm

Qantas previously had announced MEL-LAX-ORD service, although it never actually started, it's clear they've had their eyes on Chicago for awhile.

[Edited 2015-11-15 11:13:32]
 
RemoFlyer
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RE: Qantas Looking At MEL-DFW And SYD-ORD

Sun Nov 15, 2015 7:11 pm

Quoting kngkyle (Reply 9):

Yes - that was in 2002/2003
 
RemoFlyer
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RE: Qantas Looking At MEL-DFW And SYD-ORD

Sun Nov 15, 2015 7:12 pm

This one might turn out to be SYD ORD BNE SYD service depending on range issues
 
zkncj
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RE: Qantas Looking At MEL-DFW And SYD-ORD

Sun Nov 15, 2015 7:19 pm

If QF goes for SYD-ORD, its almost certain NZ will go for LAX-ORD
 
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Miami
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RE: Qantas Looking At MEL-DFW And SYD-ORD

Sun Nov 15, 2015 7:22 pm

Quoting RemoFlyer (Reply 8):
787-9 official range is approx 8300 nautical miles or approx 9500 miles - weight and wind restrictions can of course bring the number down.

Exactly. A nonstop would not make more sense than a stop at LAX. I personally don't see it happening anytime soon but I'd like to be proven wrong.
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RE: Qantas Looking At MEL-DFW And SYD-ORD

Sun Nov 15, 2015 7:29 pm

Quoting thekorean (Reply 2):
Why the hell are they doing that? Just feed ORD passengers to DFW.

NZ looked at ORD and DEN from AKL, which is more far-fetched.

If QF starts SYD-ORD, I can see NZ doing AKL-ORD. And if MEL-DFW starts, I can see UA countering with SFO-MEL, or hopefully even IAH-SYD! The last part I just my wishful thinking.

AA/QF and UA/NZ seem to be doing some tit-for-tat lately.
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RemoFlyer
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RE: Qantas Looking At MEL-DFW And SYD-ORD

Sun Nov 15, 2015 7:29 pm

QF could also do ORD AKL SYD - ORD AKL is about 1000 miles shorter than SYD, ORD BNE is 8900 miles
 
RemoFlyer
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RE: Qantas Looking At MEL-DFW And SYD-ORD

Sun Nov 15, 2015 7:32 pm

Quoting TWA772LR (Reply 14):

AA/QF and UA/NZ seem to be doing some tit-for-tat lately.

It's all good for us flyers
 
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mariner
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RE: Qantas Looking At MEL-DFW And SYD-ORD

Sun Nov 15, 2015 7:36 pm

Quoting thekorean (Reply 2):
Why the hell are they doing that?

To stimulate more travel in an important, heavily populated market.

Quoting zkncj (Reply 12):
If QF goes for SYD-ORD, its almost certain NZ will go for LAX-ORD

Is it?

I don't see what that adds to anything. NZ pax can already fly LAX-ORD on United (or IAH-ORD in a month or so).

AKL-ORD would be a different and much more interesting story, but - I hope - Air NZ wouldn't do it just to kick Qantas in the nuts.

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Q
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RE: Qantas Looking At MEL-DFW And SYD-ORD

Sun Nov 15, 2015 7:40 pm

I hope Qantas Airbus 380 can make it longer take off runway only one is 13,000 ft. 10R/28L. It's gonna be long flight. I would love to go Australia one day but I hope Qantas fare is cheaper avergae $900-$800 RT ORD-SYD we will see. If oil price keeps lower rate. I'll go.

Q
 
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RE: Qantas Looking At MEL-DFW And SYD-ORD

Sun Nov 15, 2015 7:41 pm

Quoting RemoFlyer (Reply 4):
Yes - apparently QF has been told that the 789 will be able to handle that.

Then it could also handle SYD-LHR nonstop, and continental Europe even easier.
When are the going to do that ? The Kangaroo-route nonstop would be something   
 
RemoFlyer
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RE: Qantas Looking At MEL-DFW And SYD-ORD

Sun Nov 15, 2015 7:44 pm

Quoting lancelot07 (Reply 19):

I read somewhere either BA or QF were thinking of LHR PER with the 789

Yes - that would be something !

2017 and later when they start getting their 789s




[Edited 2015-11-15 11:45:43]

[Edited 2015-11-15 11:46:41]

[Edited 2015-11-15 11:49:17]
 
Q
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RE: Qantas Looking At MEL-DFW And SYD-ORD

Sun Nov 15, 2015 7:48 pm

Will Qantas using ORD-SYD Boeing 787-9? I don't know which one will use A380 or 789. I hope 787-9. It would be great!

Q
 
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RE: Qantas Looking At MEL-DFW And SYD-ORD

Sun Nov 15, 2015 7:50 pm

Hmmm...QF did announce flights to ORD a while back, I think the flight was to route MEL-LAX-ORD.

Quoting Miami (Reply 7):
And is there really a market for such a flight?

You have brought up the topic of QF coming to MIA multiple times, yet you question it when the topic of QF coming to ORD comes up, with ORD being a much larger city than MIA.
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RemoFlyer
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RE: Qantas Looking At MEL-DFW And SYD-ORD

Sun Nov 15, 2015 7:50 pm

Quoting Q (Reply 21):

That is what the CEO was implying - the 789
 
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thekorean
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RE: Qantas Looking At MEL-DFW And SYD-ORD

Sun Nov 15, 2015 7:52 pm

Quoting RemoFlyer (Reply 6):

Never said that, got me for someone else.

Quoting mariner (Reply 17):

Chicago is very important market and so is Sydney but that doesn't mean logistics can be overcome to make the flight profitable nontop. There is going to be a payload issues no? Maybe 777-8 or 359LR can do it nonstop without payload issues.

[Edited 2015-11-15 11:55:02]
 
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TWA772LR
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RE: Qantas Looking At MEL-DFW And SYD-ORD

Sun Nov 15, 2015 7:53 pm

Quoting Q (Reply 21):

ORD isnt A380 ready yet. Plus, the 789 is the least risky aircraft going into the route.
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Q
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RE: Qantas Looking At MEL-DFW And SYD-ORD

Sun Nov 15, 2015 7:54 pm

What is range 787-9 maximum?

Q
 
N1120A
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RE: Qantas Looking At MEL-DFW And SYD-ORD

Sun Nov 15, 2015 7:58 pm

Quoting RemoFlyer (Thread starter):
I also fully expect AA to add LAX MEL and DFW AKL when the appropriate aircrafts come onboard.

QF will keep the A380 on LAX-MEL for the foreseeable future. IDK if AA is going to want to match product on that and use another 77W. That fleet is starting to get stretched thin, especially if LAX-HKG materializes.

Quoting Miami (Reply 7):
The 789 max range is 8,790 miles. SYD-ORD is 9,232 miles.

You need to use NM, and those numbers are wrong. The 789's still air range is slightly longer than SYD-ORD, but payload would be a major issue.

Quoting Miami (Reply 13):
Exactly. A nonstop would not make more sense than a stop at LAX. I personally don't see it happening anytime soon but I'd like to be proven wrong.

Yeah - SYD-LAX-ORD is all of 1nm further than SYD-ORD. SYD-ORD would basically flight right over LAX on its way to ORD. There is zero reason to do that, given that LAX-ORD has basically hourly flights.
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thekorean
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RE: Qantas Looking At MEL-DFW And SYD-ORD

Sun Nov 15, 2015 8:00 pm

Quoting N1120A (Reply 27):

QF can't pickup passengers to ORD from LAX and vice versa anyway.
 
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Miami
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RE: Qantas Looking At MEL-DFW And SYD-ORD

Sun Nov 15, 2015 8:01 pm

Quoting N1120A (Reply 27):
and those numbers are wrong.

No they are not. With 290 passengers and cargo.

Quoting N1120A (Reply 27):
Yeah - SYD-LAX-ORD is all of 1nm further than SYD-ORD. SYD-ORD would basically flight right over LAX on its way to ORD. There is zero reason to do that, given that LAX-ORD has basically hourly flights.

Regardless a nonstop flight isn't necessary at this point.
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mariner
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RE: Qantas Looking At MEL-DFW And SYD-ORD

Sun Nov 15, 2015 8:02 pm

Quoting N1120A (Reply 27):
There is zero reason to do that, given that LAX-ORD has basically hourly flights.

DFW-LAX was not exactly under-serviced, yet still Qantas started SYD-DFW. One again, it's about new market stimulation.

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RemoFlyer
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RE: Qantas Looking At MEL-DFW And SYD-ORD

Sun Nov 15, 2015 8:12 pm

Quoting N1120A (Reply 27):
Yeah - SYD-LAX-ORD is all of 1nm further than SYD-ORD. SYD-ORD would basically flight right over LAX on its way to ORD. There is zero reason to do that, given that LAX-ORD has basically hourly flight

Hey - I'm just reporting what the QF CEO said in his joint events with the AA CEO on new future routes - Just reporting !!

Although given your logic, there is no reason for DFW MEL either, given that the flight would

a) Overfly SYD
b) There are enough SYD MEL connections
 
N1120A
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RE: Qantas Looking At MEL-DFW And SYD-ORD

Sun Nov 15, 2015 8:16 pm

Quoting Miami (Reply 29):
No they are not. With 290 passengers and cargo.

Except that 1) QF would likely carry at least 40-50 fewer passengers (even less if they offer F) and 2) I'll go with what Boeing says.

Quoting thekorean (Reply 28):
QF can't pickup passengers to ORD from LAX and vice versa anyway.

Well, they can carry people who are connecting to international flights to Australia. Still, it makes zero sense.

Quoting mariner (Reply 30):
DFW-LAX was not exactly under-serviced, yet still Qantas started SYD-DFW. One again, it's about new market stimulation.

SYD-LAX-DFW isn't directly on the Great Circle for SYD-DFW either. Also, SYD-DFW is nearly 600 nm shorter than SYD-ORD - that is a huge difference. Finally, DFW affords them a larger US domestic connecting market to pull passengers off of. ORD's domestic connections would be largely redundant.
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RemoFlyer
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RE: Qantas Looking At MEL-DFW And SYD-ORD

Sun Nov 15, 2015 8:26 pm

It always amuses me to no end how random airliners.net posters always seem to have (at least in their own minds) more and better information about aircraft range, traffic and estimated profitability between cities as well as market feasibility than aircraft manufacturers, airline route managers and traffic analysts !
 
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thekorean
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RE: Qantas Looking At MEL-DFW And SYD-ORD

Sun Nov 15, 2015 8:26 pm

Now that PHX is AA hub, how about SYD-PHX-ORD?
 
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mariner
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RE: Qantas Looking At MEL-DFW And SYD-ORD

Sun Nov 15, 2015 8:34 pm

Quoting N1120A (Reply 32):
ORD's domestic connections would be largely redundant.

I guess Qantas doesn't agree with you.

It's been shown, time and again, that non-stop service can stimulate the market. So sure, pax can fly ORD-DFW-SYD, or ORD-LAX-SYD, but t's likely they would prefer to avoid the connection on what is a very long flight.

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RE: Qantas Looking At MEL-DFW And SYD-ORD

Sun Nov 15, 2015 8:38 pm

Quoting lancelot07 (Reply 19):
The Kangaroo-route nonstop would be something

Wouldn't be the Kangaroo route anymore - wouldn't be any more hops....!

FWIW, my vote goes for MEL-DFW before SYD-ORD. But both of these are lower in priority than other potential routes (including upping frequency on existing ones).
 
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RE: Qantas Looking At MEL-DFW And SYD-ORD

Sun Nov 15, 2015 8:46 pm

Quoting RemoFlyer (Reply 33):
It always amuses me to no end how random airliners.net posters always seem to have (at least in their own minds) more and better information about aircraft range, traffic and estimated profitability between cities as well as market feasibility than aircraft manufacturers, airline route managers and traffic analysts !

Pffft, what do airline companies know about their own equipment and current or future routes!

I am really liking this new AA/QF JV! I live in Sydney and the company I work for has an office in Chicago and I still have family in Chicago. With AA coming into SYD next month, booking flights back to the US is now a lot easier, loving that I can now fly the same carrier all the way from SYD to ORD (via LAX). I am actually booked on AA next month to do SYD-LAX-MIA-LAX-SYD and then again in June to do SYD-LAX-ORD-LAX-SYD. I know that I can fly all the way from SYD to ORD with UA, but I prefer to fly AA as that is where all of my FF miles are.
An American expat from the ORD area living and working in SYD
 
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IrishAyes
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RE: Qantas Looking At MEL-DFW And SYD-ORD

Sun Nov 15, 2015 8:49 pm

I would imagine that QF may want to resume DFW-BNE by routing the westbound MEL service through BNE. I do recall that there were significant passengers deplaning at BNE when QF8 was a 744 via BNE to SYD.

I also am going to side with the group that doesn't see the business case for ORD, but given my loyalty and ties to Chicago, I wouldn't want to say no to it either  
 
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RE: Qantas Looking At MEL-DFW And SYD-ORD

Sun Nov 15, 2015 10:10 pm

Quoting N1120A (Reply 27):
QF will keep the A380 on LAX-MEL for the foreseeable future. IDK if AA is going to want to match product on that and use another 77W. That fleet is starting to get stretched thin, especially if LAX-HKG materializes

With the 787 arriving and the 777-200 getting new seats AA can send the 77W to Asia, those planes were never intended to fly only to LHR and Brazil. AA has enough 777-200 and 787 coming in to fly the current GRU 77W schedule. Strategically the 77W need to go where they can fill First Class and Business Class, Asia will do that and the current recession in Brazil will not.
 
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RE: Qantas Looking At MEL-DFW And SYD-ORD

Sun Nov 15, 2015 10:30 pm

I think I see an underlying pattern. By serving ever more US cities with mid-size wide bodies, and cozying up to AA to share loads/revenues, QF appear to be taking concrete steps toward eliminating the need for VLAs in its fleet. This jibes with the off-hand comments (from within QF) suggesting that QF may intend to swap out their A380s for 777-9s the next go around. -ir

[Edited 2015-11-15 14:59:50]
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RE: Qantas Looking At MEL-DFW And SYD-ORD

Sun Nov 15, 2015 10:46 pm

Quoting irishayes (Reply 38):
I would imagine that QF may want to resume DFW-BNE by routing the westbound MEL service through BNE. I do recall that there were significant passengers deplaning at BNE when QF8 was a 744 via BNE to SYD.

Yep - BNE offers all the same connecting possibilities as Syd for most of Australia/NZ. Yet, being further north it won't suffer the weight restriction. Melbourne being a bigger city has more corporate HQ that would obviously prefer the direct flight, however I suspect MEL may be that little too far south and weight restrictions may be an issue. It's the same reason we've seen Air Canada pick BNE over Melbourne. If you look at the existing range maps you can see MEL is right on the very edge of the 789's map on boeing website. Going signifincatly futher is going to have very siginficant restrictions. BNE is 700 n miles shorter than MEL from DFW too.
In short - although MEL will generate more business traffic in terms of O and D for technical reasons BNE may get it as that city also has the ability to connect the entire southern Continent.
 
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qf2220
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RE: Qantas Looking At MEL-DFW And SYD-ORD

Sun Nov 15, 2015 11:13 pm

Would ORD give better connectivity with AA through to eastern Canada?
 
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777Jet
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RE: Qantas Looking At MEL-DFW And SYD-ORD

Sun Nov 15, 2015 11:36 pm

Quoting Q (Reply 18):
I hope Qantas Airbus 380 can make it longer take off runway only one is 13,000 ft. 10R/28L. It's gonna be long flight. I would love to go Australia one day but I hope Qantas fare is cheaper avergae $900-$800 RT ORD-SYD we will see. If oil price keeps lower rate. I'll go.

Forget the A380 on that route. 789 was mentioned.

And, it was a few weeks ago actually that AJ first mentioned the routes SYD-ORD and MEL-DFW when talking up the 789 Dreamliners. There was a long discussion in one of the past Australian Aviation threads. If the range things is not an issue and gets sorted out, I can definitely see MEL-DFW happening, and I think SYD-ORD is very possible and has some strong points - I can see it happening within a few years of having received the 789s. Having said that, there are a lot of doubters on the SYD-ORD route.
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RE: Qantas Looking At MEL-DFW And SYD-ORD

Sun Nov 15, 2015 11:44 pm

Quoting Q (Reply 26):
What is range 787-9 maximum?
Quoting N1120A (Reply 27):
You need to use NM, and those numbers are wrong. The 789's still air range is slightly longer than SYD-ORD, but payload would be a major issue.

By the time QF ',s 789's EIS the 789 will probably be 2t lighter and 3% better SFC than at EIS. I believe it is possible that they will get sector times of better than 17.5hrs which should cover off DFW-MEL and ORD-SYD most days at max passenger load.

Quoting Miami (Reply 29):
No they are not. With 290 passengers and cargo.
Quoting N1120A (Reply 32):
Except that 1) QF would likely carry at least 40-50 fewer passengers (even less if they offer F) and 2) I'll go with what Boeing says.

I don't believe QF will configure a ULH 789 for more than ~ 250 passengers. They typically get very good yields so they need to offer superior accommodation to get these.
 
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RE: Qantas Looking At MEL-DFW And SYD-ORD

Sun Nov 15, 2015 11:50 pm

Quoting IslandRob (Reply 40):
I think I see an underlying pattern. By serving ever more US cities with mid-size wide bodies, and cozying up to AA to share loads/revenues, QF appear to be taking concrete steps toward eliminating the need for VLAs in its fleet.

Unfortunately you MIGHT be right, BUT those actions don't do anything for Europe/Asia. Could be the big twins will work there too, but we simply don't know. I really hope they don't work there (& NA) as I really, really don't like the B777 most especially in 10 abreast Y configuration, but I guess to be fair I have wait to see what 10 abreast is like on the B778/9, but I'm not optimistic!

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RE: Qantas Looking At MEL-DFW And SYD-ORD

Mon Nov 16, 2015 12:03 am

I'm liking both ideas. MEL-DFW because no one one in their right minds wants to connect in Sydney (separate terminals) - especially ahead of a long TPAC flight - and SYD-ORD because a) it should a healthy chunk if business traffic b) it gives OZ its first non-stop "East Coast" flight. I know, ORD is not on the East Coast but the way most people see it, they either have an East Coast or a West Coast holiday and ORD is part of the East Coast in that sense because you can easily combine it with NYC, WAS and BOS.
 
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RE: Qantas Looking At MEL-DFW And SYD-ORD

Mon Nov 16, 2015 12:04 am

Quoting zkncj (Reply 12):
If QF goes for SYD-ORD, its almost certain NZ will go for LAX-ORD

Why would NZ go for LAX-ORD when the B789 will be perfectly fine operating AKL-ORD if QF is planning a SYD-ORD service?

Quoting QF2220 (Reply 42):
Would ORD give better connectivity with AA through to eastern Canada?

Better include Westjet in that also
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RE: Qantas Looking At MEL-DFW And SYD-ORD

Mon Nov 16, 2015 12:08 am

Quoting Q (Reply 18):
I hope Qantas Airbus 380 can make it longer take off runway only one is 13,000 ft. 10R/28L.

That wouldn't be a problem.
QF does SYD-MEL off of LAX's rwy24L all the time, and it's 3000ft shorter.
I myself, suspect a more prosaic motive... ~Thranduil
 
Viscount724
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RE: Qantas Looking At MEL-DFW And SYD-ORD

Mon Nov 16, 2015 12:11 am

Quoting lancelot07 (Reply 19):
Quoting RemoFlyer (Reply 4):
Yes - apparently QF has been told that the 789 will be able to handle that.

Then it could also handle SYD-LHR nonstop, and continental Europe even easier.

SYD-LHR is almost 1,200 nm further than SYD-ORD.

SYD-ORD 8,022 nm
SYD-LHR 9,188 nm

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