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aryonoco
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RE: Qantas Looking At MEL-DFW And SYD-ORD

Mon Nov 16, 2015 1:10 am

MEL-DFW makes a lot of sense to me. Changing at LAX or SYD is both a pain, and MEL pax would love to avoid that. If you're going anywhere east of the Mississippi, AA's network at LAX leaves a lot to be desired. I travel MEL-MSY for example rather regularly and most of the time I have to go MEL-LAX-DFW-MSY which is two stops, and arrival into US at LAX is far from perfect. MEL-DFW would be a great option for people like me, and would solidify QF's position in the AUS-US market.

I have a lot more problems with SYD-ORD. First of all, O&D from ORD to Australia is rather minimal, so O&D is not going to carry this flight by itself, it needs connections. AA's connections at ORD are no better than DFW, everything they offer at ORD they also offer at DFW. And the SYD-ORD flight directly flies over DFW, which makes you wonder what the point of it is. As a passenger I'd love to see it happen, the more choice the better. I just am not sure it makes a lot of sense for the airline. We shall see.
 
RemoFlyer
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RE: Qantas Looking At MEL-DFW And SYD-ORD

Mon Nov 16, 2015 1:14 am

Quoting N1120A (Reply 27):
SYD-ORD would basically flight right over LAX on its way to ORD
Quoting aryonoco (Reply 50):
And the SYD-ORD flight directly flies over DFW, which makes you wonder what the point of it is

Something tells me both of these can't be true at the same time
 
qf15
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RE: Qantas Looking At MEL-DFW And SYD-ORD

Mon Nov 16, 2015 1:49 am

Quoting RemoFlyer (Reply 51):

Quoting N1120A (Reply 27):
SYD-ORD would basically flight right over LAX on its way to ORD
Quoting aryonoco (Reply 50):
And the SYD-ORD flight directly flies over DFW, which makes you wonder what the point of it is

Something tells me both of these can't be true at the same time



LAX is correct, so easy connections onto AA and no backtracking, and a SFO stopover will soon be an option. Joyce seems to talk about ULH expansion a lot but QF haven't even ordered any planes to do so yet. Seems to be quite a pissing contest between QF/AA and NZ/UA across the pacific over the last year or so.

MEL-DFW is really pushing it and SYD-ORD and PER-LHR are no chance unless they have a small sub fleet of premium only cabin 787's.
 
qf002
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RE: Qantas Looking At MEL-DFW And SYD-ORD

Mon Nov 16, 2015 1:58 am

I'm sure QF are "looking" at many different things. I'm not holding my breath personally.
 
jetblue1965
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RE: Qantas Looking At MEL-DFW And SYD-ORD

Mon Nov 16, 2015 2:00 am

Quoting QF15 (Reply 52):

I wouldn't really characterize it as a pissing contest, seeing that all routes launched are rather logical adds, even if it means a short term over capacity across the southwest pacific.
 
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mariner
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RE: Qantas Looking At MEL-DFW And SYD-ORD

Mon Nov 16, 2015 2:15 am

Quoting qf002 (Reply 53):
I'm sure QF are "looking" at many different things. I'm not holding my breath personally.

Nor should you hold your breath.

This whole thread a is a bit of a beat-up, as is the article on which it is based. Sure, they talk about MEL-DFW but it is hedged with "if's" and "buts":

"But Joyce flagged more new routes and opportunities are yet to come. such as Qantas operating Melbourne-Dallas Fort Worth with its forthcoming Boeing 787-9s.

“That’s a few years away, 2017 is when the first [787-9] is coming. And if Dallas keeps on growing and the partnership keeps on enhancing we’ll be looking at those opportunities."


AJ doesn't say that they intend to fly SYD-ORD, but rather that the aircraft is capable of it:

"“We also said today the aircraft can do Sydney to Chicago, again that’s a huge American hub in Chicago as well. So there’s lots of opportunities this partnership opens up potentially,” Joyce continued."

He also urges caution in such thinking:

"As Doug said to me, let’s walk before we run, we have to bed down what we have and there is a lot of growth going into what we have but we can build from there.”

It was two CEO's batting the breeze about the virtues of their JV.

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aryonoco
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RE: Qantas Looking At MEL-DFW And SYD-ORD

Mon Nov 16, 2015 2:20 am

Quoting RemoFlyer (Reply 51):
Something tells me both of these can't be true at the same time

SYD-ORD is 8022 nm
SYD-LAX-ORD is 8023 nm
SYD-DFW-ORD is 8140 nm

So it overflies LAX directly, but LAX is not a strong AA hub and doesn't offer anywhere near the number of East Coast connections that DFW and ORD do.

However going to DFW is only 100nm longer, which in case of such a ULH route, is about 1.5% of the overall distance. For all intents and purposes, SYD-ORD basically overflies DFW as well. And when it comes to AA's hubs, DFW is at least as strong as ORD, if not stronger. Hence in my opinion there is little reason to overfly DFW and go to ORD.
 
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RE: Qantas Looking At MEL-DFW And SYD-ORD

Mon Nov 16, 2015 2:31 am

Quoting mariner (Reply 55):
It was two CEO's batting the breeze about the virtues of their JV.

Exactly and I would say both of them have learnt a few things from the Likes of O'leary, Bakar and Branson in that if you make grand statements the media often pick it up and run with it, even if its not economically viable with the current and foreseeable technology the company has at its disposal. He could have well meant a technical stop at BNE or AKL on the way too and not mentioned a word, knowing it would get media attention. At the end of the day airlines don't want to weight restrict aircraft heavily - you've got to generate massive premiums to make up for that, and you completely loose the ability to carry cargo which is revenue, meaning the seats have to cost even more on average. The 787 right now doesn't appear to be designed for that role. This is 77L/778/A359LR kind of stuff - and 2 of those aircraft aren't even flying.
 
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RE: Qantas Looking At MEL-DFW And SYD-ORD

Mon Nov 16, 2015 2:35 am

Quoting Lufthansa (Reply 57):
He could have well meant a technical stop at BNE or AKL on the way too and not mentioned a word, knowing it would get media attention.

If AA/QF wanted to be Machiavellian, they could open SYD-AKL-ORD and effectively prevent NZ from taking that route up - it's one that has been signalled as a possibility for NZ in the future.
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N867DA
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RE: Qantas Looking At MEL-DFW And SYD-ORD

Mon Nov 16, 2015 2:44 am

These long flights must be torture in Y. I bet in a few years nonstops will be cheaper than a connecting option, especially for seats in the back. SYD-HNL-ORD, you say? With a 3 day halt? Why, yes please!  
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VAM8789
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RE: Qantas Looking At MEL-DFW And SYD-ORD

Mon Nov 16, 2015 2:50 am

How much new service can New Zealand handle? You've got NZ AKL-IAH, UA SFO-AKL and AA LAX-SKL coming online in addition the the existing service by NZ.


With a full load of passengers, how much would they have the skimp on cargo to make SYD-ORD with a 789?
 
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IrishAyes
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RE: Qantas Looking At MEL-DFW And SYD-ORD

Mon Nov 16, 2015 3:25 am

Quoting jfk777 (Reply 39):
With the 787 arriving and the 777-200 getting new seats AA can send the 77W to Asia, those planes were never intended to fly only to LHR and Brazil. AA has enough 777-200 and 787 coming in to fly the current GRU 77W schedule. Strategically the 77W need to go where they can fill First Class and Business Class, Asia will do that and the current recession in Brazil will not.

No.

There IS plenty of F demand for routes such as LHR and GRU.

If AA didn't think there was a necessity for F class on its 77W, it wouldn't have installed it, especially as so many carriers are doing away with it.
 
kaitak
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RE: Qantas Looking At MEL-DFW And SYD-ORD

Mon Nov 16, 2015 3:29 am

Quoting N1120A (Reply 32):
Quoting Miami (Reply 29):No they are not. With 290 passengers and cargo.Except that 1) QF would likely carry at least 40-50 fewer passengers (even less if they offer F) and 2) I'll go with what Boeing says
Quoting sunrisevalley (Reply 44):
I don't believe QF will configure a ULH 789 for more than ~ 250 passengers. They typically get very good yields so they need to offer superior accommodation to get these.

Wouldn't the ideal solution here be to configure their Y class with 8 abreast; after all, on a 16-18h flight, as it appears that QF intends the majority of its 789 flying to be (don't forget LHR-PER as well), 9 abreast is not going to be very attractive. Less weight, more appeal and perhaps, more range?
 
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RE: Qantas Looking At MEL-DFW And SYD-ORD

Mon Nov 16, 2015 3:35 am

Quoting kaitak (Reply 62):
Wouldn't the ideal solution here be to configure their Y class with 8 abreast; after all, on a 16-18h flight, as it appears that QF intends the majority of its 789 flying to be (don't forget LHR-PER as well), 9 abreast is not going to be very attractive. Less weight, more appeal and perhaps, more range?

The only thing Y class passengers want these days is the lowest fare. Removing seats doesn't help profitability under those circumstances. I doubt more than 1% of Y class passengers have any idea about seating differences between aircraft or airlines when booking their flights. For the few passengers willing to pay somewhat more for better seating, offer a premium economy product.
 
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RE: Qantas Looking At MEL-DFW And SYD-ORD

Mon Nov 16, 2015 4:29 am

Quoting VAM8789 (Reply 60):
How much new service can New Zealand handle? You've got NZ AKL-IAH, UA SFO-AKL and AA LAX-SKL coming online in addition the the existing service by NZ.

American's new LAX-AKL isn't so much about New Zealand. It's for those pax who want to visit NZ and Australia, getting the two countries for not much for than the price of one.

American's passenger base in the US will be vital to the route, obviously, but so will the Qantas passenger base in Australia.

From the article:

“The day is made possible due to our relationship with Qantas, we wouldn’t be flying on this route if we didn’t have the joint venture in place. We wouldn’t have announced the service that we announced earlier this week to Auckland if we didn’t have the joint venture in place.”

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747m8te
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RE: Qantas Looking At MEL-DFW And SYD-ORD

Mon Nov 16, 2015 7:14 am

Personally I have wondered if QF will do a same plane service MEL-BNE-DFW-BNE-MEL, it serves both markets in BNE and MEL, and sure whilst it is a connection in BNE, if its same plane service (as the old QF7 DFW-BNE-SYD was) it would be an easy transit in the international terminal in BNE as the pax wouldn't have to clear imm/customs there. Also if timed right, they could work it that the MEL-BNE leg could also have pax connecting onto the BNE-NRT service, which would mean another easy international transit for MEL pax in BNE.

MEL-DFW just seems too close to 789s range limits and is going to have to take too much of a payload hit.

I'd rather see QF do the following in North America with the 789s:
MEL-SFO
MEL-BNE-DFW-BNE-MEL

And maybe we see AA do a same plane service ORD-LAX-SYD-LAX-ORD, which would avoid the terminal change in LAX, plus make it easier to connect from other international flights in/out of LAX to ORD on that service.

All in all, all this talk of QF suggesting these long routes points to a lower density layout for their 789s than many competitors...heavy premium cabins and maybe generous 2-4-2 in economy???
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TWA772LR
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RE: Qantas Looking At MEL-DFW And SYD-ORD

Mon Nov 16, 2015 7:25 am

Is it too late for QF to make a small order of 5-10 77Ls to start augmenting the 747s and have the 747s return to the A380 routes and start phasing out the 380? QF seems to have ditched the VLA concept. I would be shocked to see them firm up the remaining orders.
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zkncj
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RE: Qantas Looking At MEL-DFW And SYD-ORD

Mon Nov 16, 2015 7:38 am

Quoting VAM8789 (Reply 60):
How much new service can New Zealand handle? You've got NZ AKL-IAH, UA SFO-AKL and AA LAX-SKL coming online in addition the the existing service by NZ.

NZ fills 7000 seats weekly on AKL-LAX, they have an pretty decent pull from the Australian market.

It's not about how much seats the local market can fill, but more about the amount of seats you can fill by using AKL as an hub.

Transiting via SYD requires an terminal change, and is not fun at the best of times.

For example if live in the Gold Coast and want to get to Vancouver, one of you best options is to fly OOL-AKL-YVR on NZ.
 
aryonoco
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RE: Qantas Looking At MEL-DFW And SYD-ORD

Mon Nov 16, 2015 8:02 am

Quoting TWA772LR (Reply 66):
Is it too late for QF to make a small order of 5-10 77Ls t

Yes.

Quoting TWA772LR (Reply 66):
have the 747s return to the A380 routes and start phasing out the 380?

LOL this was funny. Thank you, I needed the laugh today. I was almost taking you seriously at first!
 
ZK-NBT
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RE: Qantas Looking At MEL-DFW And SYD-ORD

Mon Nov 16, 2015 8:03 am

Quoting TWA772LR (Reply 66):
Is it too late for QF to make a small order of 5-10 77Ls to start augmenting the 747s and have the 747s return to the A380 routes and start phasing out the 380?

QF won't order the 77L, but the 778-779 is certainly possible, and I can't see them replacing the A380s before the 747s, QF have said they will operate the A380 till the end of their economic life weather thats 20 years or less I'm not sure.

The 789 is the long haul aircraft QF need though weather its right for routes like SYD-ORD and MEL-DFW i'm not sure but thats maybe where the 778-779 come in.

Quoting TWA772LR (Reply 66):
QF seems to have ditched the VLA concept. I would be shocked to see them firm up the remaining orders.

I'm not sure about either of those comments.
 
qf002
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RE: Qantas Looking At MEL-DFW And SYD-ORD

Mon Nov 16, 2015 8:23 am

Quoting kaitak (Reply 62):
Wouldn't the ideal solution here be to configure their Y class with 8 abreast; after all, on a 16-18h flight, as it appears that QF intends the majority of its 789 flying to be (don't forget LHR-PER as well), 9 abreast is not going to be very attractive. Less weight, more appeal and perhaps, more range?

They'd be better off using the space to provide more luxurious J and W products given that's where people will actually pay for extra comfort and amenity.

The reality though is that the majority of QF's 789 routes will be much less than 16-18 hours. They might have one or two that are that length but most will be routes into Asia, to LAX/SFO/YVR/SCL etc which are long but well within the range of a fully loaded 789.

Quoting 747m8te (Reply 65):
Personally I have wondered if QF will do a same plane service MEL-BNE-DFW-BNE-MEL

I doubt they would bother with a domestic tag in both directions but MEL-DFW-BNE-MEL would be worth considering (and might actually be what they have in mind anyway). A triangle routing would provide a nonstop link in one direction for passengers in both markets and would also bring freight into the equation on the return sector.

Quoting TWA772LR (Reply 66):
QF seems to have ditched the VLA concept.

What makes you say that? Routes like SFO, JFK, ORD and YVR are all about building out from the very strong A380 core, not replacing it.
 
Flyingsottsman
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RE: Qantas Looking At MEL-DFW And SYD-ORD

Mon Nov 16, 2015 9:57 am

Quoting TWA772LR (Reply 66):
Is it too late for QF to make a small order of 5-10 77Ls to start augmenting the 747s and have the 747s return to the A380 routes and start phasing out the 380? QF seems to have ditched the VLA concept. I would be shocked to see them firm up the remaining orders.

I don't think they would ever get rid of the A380, remember they had that aircraft planned to be in the fleet even while the aircraft was on the drawing board. The money they spent ordering the jet plus the time they had to wait for it to be delivered. They had to rejig their plans because of the late delivery of the 380.
To much water has gone under the bridge now for them to order the 77L.
 
Nouflyer
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RE: Qantas Looking At MEL-DFW And SYD-ORD

Mon Nov 16, 2015 10:31 am

Quoting RemoFlyer (Reply 6):
Arent you the poster that once said that US airlines were soon going to be online travel agencies selling tickets on foreign carriers for international travel ?

How absurd.

That's the Qantas model to Europe!
 
TruemanQLD
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RE: Qantas Looking At MEL-DFW And SYD-ORD

Mon Nov 16, 2015 11:24 am

Quoting Nouflyer (Reply 72):
How absurd.

That's the Qantas model to Europe!

Similarly, the NZ model to Europe and basically the entire VA International network. Not to mention every single major EU airline (except, barely, BA) model to the Pacific.

Nah, lets ignore those facts and repeat the same old negative comments we make every time QF is mentioned, no matter what the actual discussion is about  
 
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RE: Qantas Looking At MEL-DFW And SYD-ORD

Mon Nov 16, 2015 11:56 am

Quoting RemoFlyer (Thread starter):

As part of the new JV of AA and QF, AA CEO Doug Parker and QF CEO Alan Joyce had a couple of news conferences in Wellington (announcing LAX AKL) and Sydney (media lunch celebrating new SYD LAX service). The following comments came out of the latter media lunch.

http://australianaviation.com.au/201...hief/

“We also said today the aircraft can do Sydney to Chicago, again that’s a huge American hub in Chicago as well. So there’s lots of opportunities this partnership opens up potentially,” Joyce continued.

Sure a 789 can fly SYD-ORD, but can a 789 fly ORD-SYD with a meaningful payload? I'd think ORD departures would take a big weight penalty. I would imagine this flight (in either direction) would be able to carry much cargo. Australian Export / Import will still be mainly at LAX.

Quoting RemoFlyer (Thread starter):
I also fully expect AA to add LAX MEL and DFW AKL when the appropriate aircrafts come onboard

I do not know if AA adding a flight MEL-LAX would be too much. I know UA has been serving MEL non-stop vs a tag with SYD for a while now, It's going to go from one carrier all the way up to three in just a short few years.

Quoting DavidByrne (Reply 58):
If AA/QF wanted to be Machiavellian, they could open SYD-AKL-ORD and effectively prevent NZ from taking that route up - it's one that has been signalled as a possibility for NZ in the future.

You beat me to it, but I was questioning what role AKL may play for AA/QF in the future. There sure are a lot more US cities in range of AKL than SYD on a non-stop basis.

Quoting N867DA (Reply 59):
These long flights must be torture in Y. I bet in a few years nonstops will be cheaper than a connecting option, especially for seats in the back. SYD-HNL-ORD, you say? With a 3 day halt? Why, yes please!

Exactly, I really wonder why HA hasn't gone after these markets & used HNL as the well located hub or stopover point for a few days of personal days used up, for some rounds of golf, or whatever floats your boat.

Quoting VAM8789 (Reply 60):
With a full load of passengers, how much would they have the skimp on cargo to make SYD-ORD with a 789?

I personally expected that these kind of flights would have to make themselves profitable with 95% of the revenue coming from passengers only. AA/QF can route cargo via LAX which has multiple 380's or 744's to / from the US.

Quoting mariner (Reply 64):
American's new LAX-AKL isn't so much about New Zealand. It's for those pax who want to visit NZ and Australia, getting the two countries for not much for than the price of one

This has been a huge hole in the QF network & Yes, exactly as you are indicating. Most vacationing people flying this far, will want to include both destinations.

Quoting sunrisevalley (Reply 44):
I don't believe QF will configure a ULH 789 for more than ~ 250 passengers. They typically get very good yields so they need to offer superior accommodation to get these.

If they plan on flying routes like MEL-DFW or SYD-ORD, they should consider some sort of mercy rule

Quoting TWA772LR (Reply 66):
QF seems to have ditched the VLA concept.

What makes you think that? I see QF using their VLA's for their trunk routes SYD-DFW/LAX MEL-LAX & SYD-DXB-LHR to name a few. I believe Alan Joyce is on record about the disposition of the remaining few 744's & their long term plans for their A-380's.
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IndianicWorld
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RE: Qantas Looking At MEL-DFW And SYD-ORD

Mon Nov 16, 2015 12:11 pm

If AA started MEL-LAX with a 789 it would likely be to take over from the extra 74E frequencies QF operates on the route (in addition to the daily a380 flight).

Can't see the point though. Would make far more sense having QF start MEL-SFO with 789 and/or MEL-DFW if it could fly it with a viable payload. LAX is too heavily focused upon at this point and another destination would provide a competitive advantage from MEL into North America.

MEL-SFO would benefit from the growing tech industry, with companies like GoPro, Zendesk, Eventbrite, Square and Stripe now having their Australian or even regional HQ in Melbourne. Add in the significant start-up sector, this will all likely give a very compelling case for such a route from either UA or QF in the not too distant future.

For the longer route, MEL-DFW-BNE-MEL would be a good compromise though if the westbound sector was beyond the reach of the 789.
 
jayunited
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RE: Qantas Looking At MEL-DFW And SYD-ORD

Mon Nov 16, 2015 2:20 pm

Quoting Q (Reply 21):
Will Qantas using ORD-SYD Boeing 787-9? I don't know which one will use A380 or 789. I hope 787-9. It would be great!

An A380 would be to much capacity on a SYD-ORD-SYD route, a 789 makes more sense but I think the payload would take a hit. There probably would be no freight on the aircraft and QF probably would have to block seats as well just to make it work.

I think MEL-DFW is going to happen I'm not so sure about SYD-ORD I think that is more grandstanding than anything.

But its great to see AA taking a bullish approach here they are not wasting anytime this JV will pay dividends it will be interesting to see how UA/NZ responds if UA will perhaps launch IAH-SYD using a 789 and what other opportunities UA/NZ can take advantage of from either SFO, LAX, or IAH.
 
MKIAZ
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RE: Qantas Looking At MEL-DFW And SYD-ORD

Mon Nov 16, 2015 2:22 pm

Quoting RemoFlyer (Reply 31):

DFW-LAX was not exactly under-serviced, yet still Qantas started SYD-DFW. One again, it's about new market stimulation.

mariner

I think it was mainly because DFW is AA's main connecting hub. So there are many cities without a LAX nonstop where people can fly XXX-DFW-SYD, where before they would have had to fly XXX-DFW-LAX-SYD.
 
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mariner
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RE: Qantas Looking At MEL-DFW And SYD-ORD

Mon Nov 16, 2015 6:14 pm

Quoting jayunited (Reply 76):
But its great to see AA taking a bullish approach here they are not wasting anytime this JV will pay dividends it will be interesting to see how UA/NZ responds if UA will perhaps launch IAH-SYD using a 789 and what other opportunities UA/NZ can take advantage of from either SFO, LAX, or IAH.

Remembering that Qantas dropped AKL-LAX in 2012, United in 2003 and other airlines before that.

People find all sorts of excuses for this - the price of fuel, the aircraft type, Qantas finances at the time, the over-availability of award tickets - but it didn't work, even with feed from Australia.

AKL may be nearer to the US than any Australian city - and may look like a natural hub - but it does mean that "Australia" becomes at least a one-stop from the US and vice versa from Oz. It will be largely used by the leisure market (seeing both countries) and a limited number of business people who have dealings in both countries.

Not to ignore the extraordinary position that Air NZ has created in sucking up much of that two country traffic, but non-stops US/OZ will continue to be favoured by a great number of people, they will continue to be the premium routes.

Doug Parker acknowledged the failure of other airlines on the route, but said that "things are different this time." Fingers crossed.

mariner

[Edited 2015-11-16 10:31:29]
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jetblue1965
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RE: Qantas Looking At MEL-DFW And SYD-ORD

Mon Nov 16, 2015 6:47 pm

SYD-ORD is a wee bit aggressive thinking if you ask me. They'll need either 350ULR or 778 plus a very high premium low seat-count configuration to make it work both directions. Even a SYD-ORD-BNE-SYD triangle would be challenging with any equipment, today or the future.

The 789, as it is today, certainly isn't the right solution for SYD-ORD.
 
Flyingsottsman
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RE: Qantas Looking At MEL-DFW And SYD-ORD

Tue Nov 17, 2015 11:17 am

Quoting jetblue1965 (Reply 79):
The 789, as it is today, certainly isn't the right solution for SYD-ORD.

I think if QF go to ORD it will be like the JFK service via LAX. before 9/11 QF has MEL/ORD via LAX planed and ready to go but 9/11 put an end to that.
 
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RE: Qantas Looking At MEL-DFW And SYD-ORD

Tue Nov 17, 2015 11:38 am

Quoting mariner (Reply 35):

I guess Qantas doesn't agree with you.

It's been shown, time and again, that non-stop service can stimulate the market. So sure, pax can fly ORD-DFW-SYD, or ORD-LAX-SYD, but t's likely they would prefer to avoid the connection on what is a very long flight.

Moving into DFW was in order to access more connections to AA's domestic network, and during a time when AA was smaller at LAX. ORD would be mostly connection redundant, with the very few markets that don't have DFW or LAX service on AA being insignificant contributors to an Australia flight. Further, there are major issues with the range that flight requires. Chicago-based traffic isn't likely to be stimulated to the point that it makes it worth a non-stop.

After all, what percentage of the DFW flight is O&D anyway?

Quoting jfk777 (Reply 39):

With the 787 arriving and the 777-200 getting new seats AA can send the 77W to Asia

AA will send the 77W to where they have 1) F demand and 2) capacity demand. What on earth makes you think they won't continue to send it to LHR? Because you're wrong.

Quoting aryonoco (Reply 56):

So it overflies LAX directly, but LAX is not a strong AA hub and doesn't offer anywhere near the number of East Coast connections that DFW and ORD do.

And DFW exists for that, but ORD is an even longer, more expensive to operate flight that you can't make up for with the massive capacity of an A380 or 747. And the O&D really is better served from LAX.

Quoting RWA380 (Reply 74):

I do not know if AA adding a flight MEL-LAX would be too much. I know UA has been serving MEL non-stop vs a tag with SYD for a while now, It's going to go from one carrier all the way up to three in just a short few years.

UA has historical strength in Australia that dates back to Pan Am. If AA were to do it, it would certainly be a 787.

Quoting IndianicWorld (Reply 75):

The market forces all lean toward LAX, which dwarfs any other market to Australia from North America.

Quoting mariner (Reply 78):
Remembering that Qantas dropped AKL-LAX in 2012, United in 2003 and other airlines before that.

Qantas couldn't compete with NZ's capacity, and had seen much of its AKL traffic gutted with the BNE non-stop. United dropped the route because they couldn't fill a 747 and couldn't do enough with a 648,000 pound 77E to make their rather huge station at AKL work with just one flight.

As for "other" airlines, which ones?

The 787 makes a lot of sense for this market.
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RE: Qantas Looking At MEL-DFW And SYD-ORD

Tue Nov 17, 2015 5:56 pm

Quoting N1120A (Reply 81):
Qantas couldn't compete with NZ's capacity, and had seen much of its AKL traffic gutted with the BNE non-stop. United dropped the route because they couldn't fill a 747 and couldn't do enough with a 648,000 pound 77E to make their rather huge station at AKL work with just one flight.

As I said, people find all sorts of excuses.

Quoting mariner (Reply 78):
People find all sorts of excuses for this - the price of fuel, the aircraft type, Qantas finances at the time, the over-availability of award tickets - but it didn't work, even with feed from Australia.

For whatever reasons, the route didn't work for them.

Quoting N1120A (Reply 81):
As for "other" airlines, which ones?

Any of the airlines Mr. Parker meant when he said it:

http://www.stuff.co.nz/travel/news/7...-Airlines-to-fly-Auckland-LA-route

"Parker acknowledged other American airlines had struggled to make similar services work commercially in the past. "

But start with American:

http://airwaysnews.com/blog/2015/11/...ealand-routes-with-qantas-jetstar/

"Of course, as airline history buffs will know, these won’t be American’s first flights to New Zealand. The airline operated a short-lived Boeing 707 service starting in 1970, and a DC-10-30 that commenced in 1990 from LAX to Honolulu and on to Auckland."

Mr. Parker has said that times have changed and "the market has grown", but also that the route is only possible because of the joint venture with Qantas.

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RE: Qantas Looking At MEL-DFW And SYD-ORD

Tue Nov 17, 2015 6:15 pm

Quoting Flyingsottsman (Reply 80):

I think if QF go to ORD it will be like the JFK service via LAX. before 9/11 QF has MEL/ORD via LAX planed and ready to go but 9/11 put an end to that.

The thing is QF no longer flies the 332 to the continental US, so your hypothetical LAX-ORD would be either 744 or 388. Assume their "300 pax to JFK" statement is accurate, they can at most have what, 200 to ORD a day? (and that's probably a bit sugar-coated already).

200 pax on a 744 would require (1) high premium-cabin skew, and (2) lots of lots of cargo to make it work. Even the 778 might be a bit large for such a mission.

Not saying it's impossible, but given their fleet, their options are somewhat limited here. NZ is in a much better position here, since AKL-ORD is very doable with a later build 789, no special LR needed.

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