Dash9
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Short Lived Type At Airlines

Mon Nov 16, 2015 3:58 pm

Hello. I noticed some airlines removes an aircraft type not very long after commiting to it. Can you indicates such examples and the primary reason?

An example I can think is AC that kept his A345 for only 3 years, replaced with B77W. It appears to be a very drastic change considering the cost of introducing a new type on long haul.

-Dash9
 
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gatibosgru
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RE: Short Lived Type At Airlines

Mon Nov 16, 2015 4:05 pm

JJ didn't keep their MD-11s/A345 for very long (but I believe that was intended).
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Revelation
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RE: Short Lived Type At Airlines

Mon Nov 16, 2015 4:33 pm

In our Fokker thread it was pointed out that AA got TW's 717s when they acquired TW yet they were rejected shortly thereafter.
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RE: Short Lived Type At Airlines

Mon Nov 16, 2015 4:37 pm

UA flew the L-1011-500 for just a couple of years after the PA Pacific route acquisition.
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BoeingGuy
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RE: Short Lived Type At Airlines

Mon Nov 16, 2015 4:37 pm

1) QX and the Dornier 328 had a short association.

2) NW and the DC-8

3) DL and the DC-10 back around 1972

4) Air California and the DC-9-10

This is a cool thread topic.
 
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OzarkD9S
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RE: Short Lived Type At Airlines

Mon Nov 16, 2015 4:49 pm

Some airlines rationalized their fleets after mergers/acquisitions:

Pan Am DC-10's from National were swapped to AA for some 747's and some cash.

Pan Am's L15's went to UA with the PA Pacific Division and were quickly unloaded, to DL IIRC.

AirCal's 146's were quickly gone after AA bought OC.

Western's DC-10's were gone from the DL fleet not long after the merger.

And some equipment didn't work out as planned:

Ozark's Twin Otter experiment (SPI-CGX) lasted less than two years. Their 2 727-200's were sold to Pan Am to raise cash after a mechanic's strike...they never entered service with OZ.

PSA and the L-1011.

DL and the original 747's and DC-10's. The 10's were a hedge order in case the Tri-Star program went kaput.

Allegheny bought some 727-100's in the late 60's/early 70's and they were disposed of within a few years. They also toyed with the DC-9-50 for awhile then sent them on their way.

Aloha had a short-lived Aloha Pacific operation with DC-10's.

Many other instances I'm sure.
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330lover
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RE: Short Lived Type At Airlines

Mon Nov 16, 2015 4:51 pm

I remember AR operated A320 only for a very short period (months or even weeks only).
No idea of the reason why...
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intotheair
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RE: Short Lived Type At Airlines

Mon Nov 16, 2015 4:52 pm

First one that came to my mind was SQ and their short-lived A343 fleet that Boeing bought outright and gave them a can't-beat deal for some 772s. The A345 fleet didn't last too much longer either.

Some others I can think of

F9 and the A318 (launch customer even, though a lot of A318 customers switched away at some point)

WN and the 727

LH and the 767 (not counting Condor)

The A342 and...almost...anyone who had one...
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diverted
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RE: Short Lived Type At Airlines

Mon Nov 16, 2015 4:54 pm

AC inherited some 737-200's after the CP merger. They flew along as "Zip" for a while.

AA and the MD-11 and 747

DL flew the L382 (Herc for something like 7-8 years IIRC)

7F had 2 ATR72's for 4-5 years before selling them and going back to just ATR42s and 737s.

I'm sure there's TONS of examples out there; heck Transaero took their first A321 in July and their 2nd in August factory fresh from Airbus. 4 months is a pretty short time to have a fleet type.
 
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RE: Short Lived Type At Airlines

Mon Nov 16, 2015 5:02 pm

Virgin Blue (Australia) bought the E170 but got rid of them very quickly in favour of the ART 72-500
 
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RE: Short Lived Type At Airlines

Mon Nov 16, 2015 5:03 pm

Quoting OzarkD9S (Reply 5):
PSA and the L-1011.

Ah, yes. How could I have missed that one??? That is the most obvious one for this thread.

Air West and the 727-100 was also a short-timer.
 
SJCMSP
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RE: Short Lived Type At Airlines

Mon Nov 16, 2015 5:09 pm

It seems can be put into a couple different categories:
1. Types inherited in a merger/acquisition and phased out.
2. Types purchased and quickly discontinued.

The first one that comes to mind for me is America West's 747. Another that comes to mind was when American acquired AirCal's 737s.
 
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RE: Short Lived Type At Airlines

Mon Nov 16, 2015 5:14 pm

EI operated the Vickers Viking for about a year, I believe. In more recent history they operated 767s for two periods totally a year (not counting last summers wet lease).

Their Saab 340s, Fokker 27s and some other types didn't hang around too long, but they weren't as short by any means.
 
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RE: Short Lived Type At Airlines

Mon Nov 16, 2015 5:15 pm

You can go further back, to AA, BN, CO, DL, NA, NW, PA, AND UA in the US and any number of European airlines and the DC7, as well as AF, LH, and TW with theLockheed L-1649 Starliner.
 
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RE: Short Lived Type At Airlines

Mon Nov 16, 2015 5:16 pm

Quoting OzarkD9S (Reply 5):
PSA and the L-1011

Also, PSA operated a few DC-9-30's as an interim measure until additional MD-80's were delivered.
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Polot
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RE: Short Lived Type At Airlines

Mon Nov 16, 2015 5:20 pm

Braniff and AA both only operated the BAC-111 for about 7-8 years from '65 to '72/73.
 
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RE: Short Lived Type At Airlines

Mon Nov 16, 2015 5:25 pm

Quoting BoeingGuy (Reply 4):
3) DL and the DC-10 back around 1972

That was a short term lease while they waited for the delayed L1011. 100% planned out.
 
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RE: Short Lived Type At Airlines

Mon Nov 16, 2015 5:42 pm

Quoting Polot (Reply 15):
Braniff and AA both only operated the BAC-111 for about 7-8 years from '65 to '72/73.

I don't think 7-8 years is short lived. We could add the AA Convair 990 too, or PSA 737-200s then. I think we are talking very short.

Quoting Mainliner (Reply 14):
Quoting OzarkD9S (Reply 5):
PSA and the L-1011

Also, PSA operated a few DC-9-30's as an interim measure until additional MD-80's were delivered.

I believe they were four ex-AC DC-9-30s. I thought they lasted until the US takeover.

How long did the MD-80s last at Air Cal? That wasn't terrible long either, was it?
 
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speedbird707
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RE: Short Lived Type At Airlines

Mon Nov 16, 2015 5:53 pm

I recall British Airways using DC10/MD11 (?) briefly after acquiring British Caledonia...odd ball to the fleet
 
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LAX772LR
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RE: Short Lived Type At Airlines

Mon Nov 16, 2015 5:54 pm

WN with the 727

AA with the MD11

DL with the DC10 and 741

SU with the 772ER

AF with the 767

CX with the A346
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shuttle9juliet
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RE: Short Lived Type At Airlines

Mon Nov 16, 2015 5:57 pm

Quoting speedbird707 (Reply 18):

DC 10s were operated from 1988 to 1998.
 
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RE: Short Lived Type At Airlines

Mon Nov 16, 2015 5:57 pm

AirTran and the lone wet-leased A320.
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jmchevallier
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RE: Short Lived Type At Airlines

Mon Nov 16, 2015 5:59 pm

SQ used to be quite a frequent type changer :

- beginning of the 70s, B727 were purchased, then disposed in 1979 and replaced by A300
- end of the 70s, they purchased 7 DC10, which were put on sale after a few months only. BG bough most of these and they happened to become the last DC10 flying passengers.
- in the 80s, A310 and B757 purchased as an early replacement of the A300 did last long
- beginning of the 90s, an order for 20 MD11 was cancelled shortly before delivery (MD never had a goof fit with SQ !) , replaced by 17 enhanced A343, themselves substituted before full delivery by plenty of B777
- the A345 in comparizon stayed about 8 years !
 
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RE: Short Lived Type At Airlines

Mon Nov 16, 2015 6:02 pm

SU Tu144, only 7 months / 55 passenger flights, although a bit longer counting test cargo flights too.
 
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Polot
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RE: Short Lived Type At Airlines

Mon Nov 16, 2015 6:04 pm

Quoting BoeingGuy (Reply 17):
I don't think 7-8 years is short lived. We could add the AA Convair 990 too, or PSA 737-200s then. I think we are talking very short.

It depends on how short we are talking about. Here is how long some of the common "shortlived" examples listed in this thread and others like it lasted:

AA BAe 146s- 7 years (1987-1994)
AA 747s 14 years (1970-1984)
DL 747s 7 years (1970-1977)
SQ A343s 7 years (1996-2003)
AA MD-11 11 years (1991-2002)
DL MD-11 14 years (1991-2005)
DL Hercs 7 years (1966-1973)
 
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RE: Short Lived Type At Airlines

Mon Nov 16, 2015 7:03 pm

Air India and Aer Lingus Tristars....never could get used to the idea of a L1011 in either colours
Gulf Air 747
MEA 747s too for that matter before they were leased out to GF etc
Laker Skytrain A300s
 
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RE: Short Lived Type At Airlines

Mon Nov 16, 2015 7:05 pm

I know RAM used to have a few A321 for a short time before going 100% Boeing.
Some of them lasted 3 years at the airline (MSN3070 and 2726 for example) and then went to S7
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reffado
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RE: Short Lived Type At Airlines

Mon Nov 16, 2015 7:06 pm

Quoting gatibosgru (Reply 1):
JJ didn't keep their MD-11s/A345 for very long (but I believe that was intended).

And you're absolutely right. The MD-11s from RG and the A345s were just a temporary measure until TAM started receiving their 77W's.
 
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UltimateDelta
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RE: Short Lived Type At Airlines

Mon Nov 16, 2015 7:19 pm

DL didn't keep their A310s very long, either, though I'm not sure of all the details surrounding them. I think they were only operated from 1991-95 or '96, despite taking a number of new aircraft well after the Pan Am deal.

[Edited 2015-11-16 11:25:32]
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RE: Short Lived Type At Airlines

Mon Nov 16, 2015 7:20 pm

XJ (Mesaba / NW Airlink) ARJ-85's (1997-2006)
 
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gdg9
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RE: Short Lived Type At Airlines

Mon Nov 16, 2015 7:22 pm

Didn't AA operate some of Reno Air's MD-90s for a short while? I know they had a few 737-3 or -4 after the AirCal acquisition for a spell.
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RE: Short Lived Type At Airlines

Mon Nov 16, 2015 7:24 pm

The original Frontier Airlines had 727-100 and -200s in the 1967 to 1969 time period.

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RE: Short Lived Type At Airlines

Mon Nov 16, 2015 7:24 pm

My first thought was NZ's DC-10-30's but in comparison to some of the fleets here they actually lasted a while. They had 8 delivered from 1973 - 1977 and were all retired by 1982 meaning the youngest only served around 5 years.
 
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RE: Short Lived Type At Airlines

Mon Nov 16, 2015 7:29 pm

Quoting Dash9 (Thread starter):
An example I can think is AC that kept his A345 for only 3 years, replaced with B77W. It appears to be a very drastic change considering the cost of introducing a new type on long haul

The A340-500 wasn't as expensive as one would think. The crews were already trained (on the -300, and it was just a home study "differences" course to fly the -500), and maintenance was already familiar with the engine. The intent though, was that the -500s were just the beginning, with the -600s to follow shortly. The B777 and B787 order, of course, ended that.

Quoting diverted (Reply 8):
AC inherited some 737-200's after the CP merger. They flew along as "Zip" for a while.

The B737s remained in the flying in the fleet for 6 years after the 1999 purchase/merger announcement.

It was decided that the B737-200 was a more capable aircraft than the DC-9-30, so the -9s were retired and replaced with the B737s. They flew both as mainline and as Tango (mainline crews and F/As). They also flew for Zip with dedicated crews and F/As.

They were also the original Jetz aircraft, before being replaced with A320/A319s.

The last B737 operations were in the Spring of 2005 with 4 aircraft on "stand by". IIRC, the last operation was March 2005. All in all, AC got a lot of good use out of the old bird!
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Dash9
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RE: Short Lived Type At Airlines

Mon Nov 16, 2015 7:30 pm

Quoting SJCMSP (Reply 11):
It seems can be put into a couple different categories:
1. Types inherited in a merger/acquisition and phased out.
2. Types purchased and quickly discontinued.

Indeed I was refering to case #2, that is a type that the execs voluntary commited to, only to change their mind later on

-Dash9
 
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RE: Short Lived Type At Airlines

Mon Nov 16, 2015 7:31 pm

TWA and the 747SP

Singapore Airlines and the 757

British Airways and the L1011-500

Qantas and the A300

Delta and the A310

American Airlines and the MD-87 and MD-90

Air France and the L-1011 and DC-10-30

Pan Am and the L-1011-500

Lufthansa and the 767-300
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RE: Short Lived Type At Airlines

Mon Nov 16, 2015 7:33 pm

Would like to see some photos of UA DC-10 and Southwest 727!
 
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RE: Short Lived Type At Airlines

Mon Nov 16, 2015 7:34 pm

How about Continental and the A300. How long did they fly those for?
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RE: Short Lived Type At Airlines

Mon Nov 16, 2015 7:34 pm

Eastern DC10-30
British Caledonian A310-200
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RE: Short Lived Type At Airlines

Mon Nov 16, 2015 7:35 pm

Eastern:

DC-6
DC-8-61/63
747
DC-10

All in service less than five years ~
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bohica
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RE: Short Lived Type At Airlines

Mon Nov 16, 2015 7:44 pm

Emirates 737 1985 to 1987 2 years

Several mentioned DL DC-10. DL operated the DC-10 on two separate occasions. The first time in the 70's were leased on a short term basis due to the delay of the L-1011. The second time was when they merged with WA. Some of those DC-10's were swapped with UA for their L-1011's.
 
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winterlight
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RE: Short Lived Type At Airlines

Mon Nov 16, 2015 7:48 pm

Ryanair and the EMB-110, HS748 & ATR-42.
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sparky35805
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RE: Short Lived Type At Airlines

Mon Nov 16, 2015 7:53 pm

United and the B-377,1949-1955.PSA had two DC-9-30s in the early 70s for a short time long before they picked up the -30s from Altair/Air Canada.Going way back,United operated four Lcokheed Lodestars on their west coast routes 1941-1942.Northwest operated Super G Constellations 1955-1957.
 
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UltimateDelta
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RE: Short Lived Type At Airlines

Mon Nov 16, 2015 7:53 pm

Another case that just occurred to me (though it doesn't fit squarely into the spirit of the thread) was Delta's go-around with 737-300s...I believe they ordered up to 50 in the early '90s in addition to the Western aircraft they already owned, but ended up not taking delivery of any of the 5 or 6 that had been built. Then, of course, they took a bunch of used ones around 1998, and those lasted for a while.
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RE: Short Lived Type At Airlines

Mon Nov 16, 2015 7:57 pm

AA's 2 747SPs (1986-1993) stop-gap to fly DFW-NRT until the MD-11s entered the fleet.
 
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RE: Short Lived Type At Airlines

Mon Nov 16, 2015 7:59 pm

HP / America West 747-200s
 
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jetjack74
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RE: Short Lived Type At Airlines

Mon Nov 16, 2015 8:00 pm

Quoting OzarkD9S (Reply 5):
Allegheny bought some 727-100's in the late 60's/early 70's and they were disposed of within a few years. They also toyed with the DC-9-50 for awhile then sent them on their way.

Allegheny(AL) operated the 727-200 for a short time(70-71)

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AL/US operated the 727-100 from 77-80, purchased from UA until US bought the 722's again in 1980-81.





[Edited 2015-11-16 12:16:45]
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RE: Short Lived Type At Airlines

Mon Nov 16, 2015 8:03 pm

Skymark A330-300 can be an example as well
 
Vulindlela
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RE: Short Lived Type At Airlines

Mon Nov 16, 2015 8:04 pm

Did anyone mention America West and the 747? Sorry if it has been mentioned and I missed it.



It looks like PSU.DTW.SCE beat me to it by a few minutes!

[Edited 2015-11-16 12:07:20]

[Edited 2015-11-16 12:07:45]
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RE: Short Lived Type At Airlines

Mon Nov 16, 2015 8:10 pm

Quoting speedbird707 (Reply 18):
I recall British Airways using DC10/MD11 (?) briefly after acquiring British Caledonia...odd ball to the fleet

They were quite happy with the DC-10s in the end although they were first seen as odd ball.

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