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DariusBieber
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TSA Failed To Catch Man With Loaded Gun

Mon Nov 16, 2015 10:14 pm

Article here: http://wfla.com/2015/11/16/tsa-faile...h-man-with-loaded-gun-on-airplane/

Seems as if this is a pretty reoccurring issue. At least they never fail to catch me with a Shampoo bottle that's too big.
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scbriml
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RE: TSA Failed To Catch Man With Loaded Gun

Mon Nov 16, 2015 11:17 pm

Wow, talk about dumb and dumber.   

Dumb - passenger for 'forgetting' he had a loaded gun in his bag

Dumber - TSA for not finding it.
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SonomaFlyer
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RE: TSA Failed To Catch Man With Loaded Gun

Mon Nov 16, 2015 11:33 pm

I think we have to just accept the fact that traveling, like anything else in life has an element of risk. Should it? No but unfortunately it will be difficult if not impossible to eliminate risk from the travel equation.

The TSA show we see at U.S. airports is a show put on to make folks traveling feel safer. They do find dope and they do find illegal items but the tests done over the years since 9/11 show that its effectiveness is low. I wish that was not the case but the TSA folks are not well paid and lots of the stations are contracted out to companies who are the low bidder so what exactly should we expect?

[Edited 2015-11-16 15:44:07]
 
bennett123
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RE: TSA Failed To Catch Man With Loaded Gun

Mon Nov 16, 2015 11:42 pm

I do wonder how long the US will stay lucky.

This is not the first screw up by a long chalk.
 
Cubsrule
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RE: TSA Failed To Catch Man With Loaded Gun

Tue Nov 17, 2015 12:10 am

Quoting SonomaFlyer (Reply 2):
the tests done over the years since 9/11 show that its effectiveness is low.

Is there any evidence that they miss a lot of guns? They confiscate dozens if not hundreds every week . . .
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BestWestern
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RE: TSA Failed To Catch Man With Loaded Gun

Tue Nov 17, 2015 12:29 am

Perhaps a mandatory minimum of six months in jail for anyone who attempts to bring a gun through security would be a deterrent, with signs everywhere.
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JHwk
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RE: TSA Failed To Catch Man With Loaded Gun

Tue Nov 17, 2015 12:42 am

Quoting SonomaFlyer (Reply 2):
wish that was not the case but the TSA folks are not well paid and lots of the stations are contracted out to companies who are the low bidder so what exactly should we expect?

Has nothing to do with pay. A TSA screener likely has around a 1:10,000 chance of having someone go through with a gun or bomb on a given day. They also have a 100% chance that they will encounter someone with too large of a shampoo bottle or drink.

When you have a low probability of a real "positive," and a high probability of a false positive, you are unlikely to be able to maintain diligence throughout your shift. You make matters worse by having all these trivial "violations" that do happen all the time take attention away from real issues.

Statistically, there is no chance of making it better than security theater. The healthy middle-ground is to have qualified guards with guns and basic metal detectors and x-rays prevent people from entering the "sterile" area with much more than a handgun with a single magazine.
 
HPAEAA
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RE: TSA Failed To Catch Man With Loaded Gun

Tue Nov 17, 2015 12:43 am

Quoting BestWestern (Reply 5):
in jail for anyone who attempts to bring a gun through security would be a deterrent, with signs everywhere.

How would that solve the problem? Taking the guy at his word that it was a mistake, it's great that he came forward so that they can fix the system- if you put a penalty on it, you'd discourage that & never learn. Jut remember the pilot that dumped his bullets on the UA flight not to long ago when he was afraid of legal ramifications.
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jetblastdubai
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RE: TSA Failed To Catch Man With Loaded Gun

Tue Nov 17, 2015 12:44 am

I'm not taking TSA's side on this by any means but the shear volume of over-stuffed, carry-on luggage that they have to screen and/or sift through would make most screeners eyes glaze over after a few minutes. The monotony of staring at that video screen has to be fatiguing so of course humans will miss something.

I seriously wish the Dept of Homeland Security/TSA would simply put an end to the carry-on policies that have created such a log jam at airports. The cost to taxpayers has to be tremendous just to staff most airports and we've all seen how many TSA has standing around, seemingly doing nothing.

TSA could set and TSA could enforce the carry-on size instead of making the airlines the "baggage police" because that's going to reflect badly on the airline's customer service rankings and they will be reluctant to be the 'bad guy'. TSA has absolutely nothing to lose in that department.

The airlines that charge for the first check bag need to bite the bullet and drop the fee for the sake of shorter, more effective security screening, faster boarding and de-planing and less gate crowding when pax are jockeying for their place in line hoping to better their chances of finding overhead space. TSA could even charge per bag (on the spot) and make their service user-funded. Having a separate screening area for pax without monster bags would be a great incentive as well.

I understand that the airlines get to redeem the entire checked-bag fee as it is not taxed as it would be if the fee was tacked on to the ticket price. Airlines are in business to make money and everyone will find a way to get around paying more to the govt. and instead keep more of their earned money when given the opportunity.
 
skywaymanaz
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RE: TSA Failed To Catch Man With Loaded Gun

Tue Nov 17, 2015 8:02 am

Quoting JHwk (Reply 6):
A TSA screener likely has around a 1:10,000 chance of having someone go through with a gun or bomb on a given day. They also have a 100% chance that they will encounter someone with too large of a shampoo bottle or drink.

That's been my number one complaint about all their silly rules. The liquid rule is very troubling because that's all the screener ends up looking for. Anyone with TSA PreCheck needs to be allowed to take liquids. Essentially TSA is already telling them we trust you not to have a bomb in your shoe but we still can't trust you when it comes to toothpaste. Btw anyone remember that incident where a pipe bomb was allowed on a plane in Edmonton last year? I know it was Canada's version of the TSA and NOT TSA but it was the liquid rule mentality that allowed it on the plane. The screener allowed it through even though the passenger confessed he forgot that was in his bag because the passenger told him there was no liquid in it.

Quoting jetblastdubai (Reply 8):
TSA could even charge per bag (on the spot) and make their service user-funded.
TSA is supposed to be funded by the 9/11 security fee on every airline ticket. To make them charge passengers at security would bring the lines to a screeching halt. You think it's bad now? Wait until the checkpoint card readers go down. I don't disagree though that TSA or some agency needs to force the airlines to accept one free checked bag per customer. That would make TSA's job easier and take some hassle away from the public.

[Edited 2015-11-17 00:08:56]
 
jetblueguy22
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RE: TSA Failed To Catch Man With Loaded Gun

Tue Nov 17, 2015 8:06 am

I know a guy who, as part of his job, is to try and sneak guns past security at airports. He says he's successful about 90% of the time. He say's after he goes through he walks over to the police on duty just past the checkpoint, flashes his credentials, and tells them what he did. He said the look on their faces is always of shock.

The TSA needs a reworking. Something isn't working. When I go through with my dog I get swabbed and they even swab my dog. Yet guns get through. It's just insane.
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OMP777X
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RE: TSA Failed To Catch Man With Loaded Gun

Tue Nov 17, 2015 8:20 am

Quoting scbriml (Reply 1):
Wow, talk about dumb and dumber.   

Dumb - passenger for 'forgetting' he had a loaded gun in his bag

I'm way more afraid of the cops who keep on leaving their service weapons behind in public bathroom stalls after taking such a long dump they forget they came in wearing a belt fitted with a handgun and extra mags, and they leave it hanging on the back of the stall door for stranger danger to find at their leisure in EWR, at the U.S.Capitol, etc. That seems to be happening at quite an alarming rate as well. I could be way off here, but it seems as if there's nobody scanning the bathrooms in our public places to look for any weapons carelessly left behind by our authorities, and that nothing is being done to secure these places that those forgetful individuals happen to frequent most often. IMHO, they and many other locations could already have arms or explosives stashed in a dropped ceiling or behind a loose tile on a wall somewhere to be used at a later date. Stay safe out there, everyone.

Best,

OMP777X

[Edited 2015-11-17 00:27:59]
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scbriml
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RE: TSA Failed To Catch Man With Loaded Gun

Tue Nov 17, 2015 8:30 am

Quoting HPAEAA (Reply 7):
it's great that he came forward so that they can fix the system

But why hasn't the system been fixed all the previous times a gun has gotten through security? It's all well and good saying learn lessons, but it's clear the lesson is never learned.

Meanwhile, the TSA will proudly point out how many dangerous bottles of water or shampoo they've confiscated.   
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Aquila3
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RE: TSA Failed To Catch Man With Loaded Gun

Tue Nov 17, 2015 8:35 am

Wait a moment, does not the luggage go through a metal detector of sort?
I mean some sort of basic electro-magnetic field device, not even x-ray (that may come further or together, don't know).
Isn't the gun or at least surely the ammutions made of solid, heavy, metal?
Then the machine should ring a bell or set off an alarm, I always tought. That must be why they often want to inspect my electric razor, I always tought.
Did the operator purposely ignore the alarm? Is the environment where he works to noisy or distracting?
I admit that I am a little bit confused, not knowing at all how the security check machine is working.
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jetblastdubai
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RE: TSA Failed To Catch Man With Loaded Gun

Tue Nov 17, 2015 1:48 pm

Quoting skywaymanaz (Reply 9):
To make them charge passengers at security would bring the lines to a screeching halt.

Exactly my point. This would nudge passengers to check their bags at the ticket counter and carry only the items they need on board with them.

Quoting skywaymanaz (Reply 9):
TSA is supposed to be funded by the 9/11 security fee on every airline ticket.

Even though the government would never lower a tax/fee, this fee could be reduced or adjusted to reflect the amount of service TSA needs to provide to a traveler. Sort of like a TSA ancillary fee. The traveler that drags their worldly belongings through the TSA screening lines should pay more than the traveler that passes through with a briefcase, purse or a bag of trail mix and a book.
 
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jfklganyc
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RE: TSA Failed To Catch Man With Loaded Gun

Tue Nov 17, 2015 1:55 pm

Non story. Happens everyday. Just doesn't make the news.

Sad state of affairs.

The reason aviation is so safe in 2015 is the vigilant pax and crew that tackle anybody trying anything.

The TSA is there for show. And it is a bad show on reruns.
 
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zeke
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RE: TSA Failed To Catch Man With Loaded Gun

Tue Nov 17, 2015 2:03 pm

Can anyone tell me why the object detection with the scanner is not semi automated ? With the operators role being monitoring the automation ?

It would not take me long at all to whip up a object recognition neural network in matlab that could be trained with a range of objects that are not permitted. OpenCV would make that easy enough in any other high level language.

As well as improving accuracy, it should also improve speed.
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HPAEAA
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RE: TSA Failed To Catch Man With Loaded Gun

Tue Nov 17, 2015 2:56 pm

Quoting scbriml (Reply 12):
But why hasn't the system been fixed all the previous times a gun has gotten through security? It's all well and good saying learn lessons, but it's clear the lesson is never learned.

Meanwhile, the TSA will proudly point out how many dangerous bottles of water or shampoo they've confiscated.   

Great question for TSA... my point above was that the break here is not an individual but the system, why put in penalties that don't address the real issue.
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JHwk
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RE: TSA Failed To Catch Man With Loaded Gun

Tue Nov 17, 2015 3:08 pm

Quoting zeke (Reply 16):

I understand from looking at the screens the software hides or de-priortizes known safe items and escalates unknown/higher risk items. It is a projection from multiple angles though, and when you have a lot of metal or solid objects in the bag the software isn't as effective, which reduces the problem to human interpretation or re-running the bag.

The way ARN used to do their security lines was the best I have seen-- a Y arrangement where two "fast" X-ray machines in parallel screen for a potential threat, and at-risk bags are diverted to the center machine with a higher level of scrutiny. The lower throughput and higher likelihood of a problem make the center line more effective.

There are certain issues which are inexcusable to get through (particularly in the US due to risk): "assault" rifles, any large quantity of ammunition, multiple handguns by the same passenger, hand grenades, and hopefully explosives.

I'm not sure how realistic blocking explosives is though, which is a bit troubling.
 
BestWestern
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RE: TSA Failed To Catch Man With Loaded Gun

Tue Nov 17, 2015 3:19 pm

Quoting HPAEAA (Reply 7):
How would that solve the problem?

It would solve the problem by making people think before the bag goes on the scanning Belt.
Greetings from Hong Kong.... a subsidiary of China Inc.
 
frmrCapCadet
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RE: TSA Failed To Catch Man With Loaded Gun

Tue Nov 17, 2015 3:22 pm

Quoting JHwk (Reply 6):
When you have a low probability of a real "positive," and a high probability of a false positive, you are unlikely to be able to maintain diligence throughout your shift. You make matters worse by having all these trivial "violations" that do happen all the time take attention away from real issues.

Statistically, there is no chance of making it better than security theater.

This seems to be the consensus, but no politician would survive acting on it.

Quoting jetblastdubai (Reply 8):
The airlines that charge for the first check bag need to bite the bullet and drop the fee for the sake of shorter, more effective security screening, faster boarding and de-planing and less gate crowding when pax are jockeying for their place in line hoping to better their chances of finding overhead space

This is a secondary issue, but other reasons politicians will not address it.
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smokeybandit
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RE: TSA Failed To Catch Man With Loaded Gun

Tue Nov 17, 2015 3:34 pm

There are plenty of people who legally carry loaded guns and do so with great caution and responsibility. There are plenty of innocent reasons the gun would be in a bag. Big deal.
 
HPAEAA
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RE: TSA Failed To Catch Man With Loaded Gun

Tue Nov 17, 2015 3:52 pm

Quoting BestWestern (Reply 19):
It would solve the problem by making people think before the bag goes on the scanning Belt.

That's not the issue here, actually it's a benefit - when people don't think it either affirms that the system works (threat is caught) or exposes a gap which should be closed - the threat here isn't when someone forgets a weapon in their bag and passes through the checkpoint successfully but the bad actor that wants to pass through and is able to. from a design standpoint you should welcome feedback from any source to understand the integrity of the process.

Just to be clear not at all suggesting the public should start testing the framework (there are and should be penalties for attempting to carry a banned item through security) but simply pointing out that you should not deter individuals from owning up to a mistake on their part by introducing disproportionate penalties especially when the error is self disclosed.
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RDUDDJI
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RE: TSA Failed To Catch Man With Loaded Gun

Tue Nov 17, 2015 5:14 pm

I assume this pax was sent through AIT, since any magnetometer would have alarmed on this.

Unfortunately, the TSA wasted hundreds of millions on the "easily thwarted"* AIT technology when magnetometers (and ETD) are much more effective (and cheaper).

* "Easily Thwarted" was a direct quote from the U.S. Congressional report on the TSA's AIT. Sad thing is, reports like this come out occasionally, and yet no changes are made...
https://oversight.house.gov/wp-content/uploads/2012/03/2011-11-16-TSA_Reform_Report.pdf
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ckfred
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RE: TSA Failed To Catch Man With Loaded Gun

Tue Nov 17, 2015 5:20 pm

Quoting skywaymanaz (Reply 9):
That's been my number one complaint about all their silly rules. The liquid rule is very troubling because that's all the screener ends up looking for. Anyone with TSA PreCheck needs to be allowed to take liquids. Essentially TSA is already telling them we trust you not to have a bomb in your shoe but we still can't trust you when it comes to toothpaste. Btw anyone remember that incident where a pipe bomb was allowed on a plane in Edmonton last year? I know it was Canada's version of the TSA and NOT TSA but it was the liquid rule mentality that allowed it on the plane. The screener allowed it through even though the passenger confessed he forgot that was in his bag because the passenger told him there was no liquid in it.

About 5 years ago, there was a show on Discovery called Future Weapons. The host of the show was a former Navy SEAL. One device that they had was a baggage screening device. Besides having the standard x-ray capabilities, it was able to detect whether a liquid was harmful. It made no difference if the liquid was in a glass, plastic or metal container, or the size of the container, or whether was full or partially empty. It also made no difference if the liquid were thin, such as water, or thick, such as maple syrup.

It could even be set to determine if soda pop was regular or diet. The machine could see through both a suitcase and the container and scan the molecular make-up of the liquid.

According to a rep from the manufacturer, China had bought the devices to use as part of the screening process at venues during the 2008 Olympics. And TSA was buying the machines. The plan was that if TSA didn't have to police for the standard small bottles, it would improve screening.

So, where are the machines?
 
GolfBravoRomeo
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RE: TSA Failed To Catch Man With Loaded Gun

Tue Nov 17, 2015 5:41 pm

About two weeks ago the House Oversight and Government Reform Committee really let the TSA have it in a hearing held in part as a response to the DHS Inspector General's finding that auditors were able to smuggle prohibited items past check points 95% of the time.
 
bond007
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RE: TSA Failed To Catch Man With Loaded Gun

Tue Nov 17, 2015 6:08 pm

Quoting jetblastdubai (Reply 8):
I seriously wish the Dept of Homeland Security/TSA would simply put an end to the carry-on policies that have created such a log jam at airports.

I'm not sure it's really any worse now than it was at certain times pre-9/11, using private contractors.

There was a time before 9/11 where you actually had to take your laptop out and power it on, to prove it was really a working laptop...actually I understand this happen now at some international airports. But this is nothing new ... we had to do it 20 years ago.


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bennett123
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RE: TSA Failed To Catch Man With Loaded Gun

Tue Nov 17, 2015 6:26 pm

IMO, there should be no guns in hand luggage. Period.

I doubt this would go down in the US, but the last thing we need is Die Hard at 40,000 feet.
 
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B727skyguy
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RE: TSA Failed To Catch Man With Loaded Gun

Tue Nov 17, 2015 6:35 pm

Quoting Cubsrule (Reply 4):
Is there any evidence that they miss a lot of guns? They confiscate dozens if not hundreds every week . . .

Yes.

http://www.cnn.com/2015/06/01/politi...ndercover-airport-screening-tests/
 
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B727skyguy
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RE: TSA Failed To Catch Man With Loaded Gun

Tue Nov 17, 2015 6:53 pm

Quoting JHwk (Reply 6):
They also have a 100% chance that they will encounter someone with too large of a shampoo bottle or drink.

They don't always do anything, though. One time, the passenger in front of me at security had a very large bottle of water attached to the outside of his backpack. The TSA screeners saw it and said nothing. I mentioned it to the screener who was dealing with me and asked why she didn't confiscate an obviously too large bottle of liquid. She replied, "I suppose we should have caught it." The other passenger was still there. Even after I brought this to TSA's attention, they still refused to do anything. The passenger went on his way with his oversize, full bottle of liquid.
 
Cubsrule
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RE: TSA Failed To Catch Man With Loaded Gun

Tue Nov 17, 2015 7:13 pm

Quoting B727skyguy (Reply 28):
Yes.

I'm aware that they generally have a poor rate of finding prohibited items, but I was asking about guns specifically.
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scbriml
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RE: TSA Failed To Catch Man With Loaded Gun

Tue Nov 17, 2015 7:38 pm

Quoting smokeybandit (Reply 21):
There are plenty of people who legally carry loaded guns and do so with great caution and responsibility.


Aside from FAMs and a few pilots, who else carries loaded guns on a plane? Anyway, this idiot clearly wasn't one of those exercising great caution and responsibility.   

Quoting smokeybandit (Reply 21):
There are plenty of innocent reasons the gun would be in a bag. Big deal.

A loaded gun on a plane is no big deal? Great attitude - you should apply for a job with the TSA!   
Time flies like an arrow. Fruit flies like a banana!
There are 10 types of people in the World - those that understand binary and those that don't.
 
RDUDDJI
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RE: TSA Failed To Catch Man With Loaded Gun

Tue Nov 17, 2015 10:37 pm

Quoting bennett123 (Reply 27):
IMO, there should be no guns in hand luggage. Period.

I doubt this would go down in the US, but the last thing we need is Die Hard at 40,000 feet.

Agreed. This was my position when they announced the FFDO program. We don't need pilots (or anyone else for that matter) having shootouts at FL350.

AFAIK, the FFDO program has never stopped any "attack", it's only led to situations where pilots left guns in places they weren't supposed to be, like airport bathrooms... So instead of making people safer, it's accomplished the opposite.
Sometimes we don't realize the good times when we're in them
 
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seabosdca
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RE: TSA Failed To Catch Man With Loaded Gun

Tue Nov 17, 2015 10:42 pm

Quoting zeke (Reply 16):
It would not take me long at all to whip up a object recognition neural network in matlab that could be trained with a range of objects that are not permitted.

This sounds to me kind of like I think the following would sound to you:

"Flying planes really isn't that hard. Stick back and forth to change pitch, stick side to side to roll, pedals to yaw, throttles to add or subtract thrust, and there are the gear and flaps controls."

There are many very wealthy contractors working on equipment specifically for TSA. A friend of mine is an engineer at one of them, If it were that easy to take a much larger part of that business by offering automated object recognition, it would have been done a long time ago.
 
lat41
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RE: TSA Failed To Catch Man With Loaded Gun

Tue Nov 17, 2015 11:59 pm

The pendulum has swung back. For a while we had left the TSA alone and we're concentrating on FAs beating up grandmas and gate agents cussing out little children travelling alone. Now that's dried up for now, so we move back to the foibles of the TSA real or perceived, who on the whole to a competent job and do detect and remove threats. These posts are often started by someone huffy about something or with their personal axe to grind. Civil aviation please.
 
BestWestern
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RE: TSA Failed To Catch Man With Loaded Gun

Wed Nov 18, 2015 12:27 am

[quote=smokeybandit,reply=21]There are plenty of people who legally carry loaded guns and do so with great caution and responsibility. There are plenty of innocent reasons the gun would be in a bag. Big deal. [/quote

There are plenty of people who illegally carry guns into an aircraft. Just like drink driving - the way to stop this is with strict and severe punishment.

Oh, and proper airport security - a 95% failure rate is a disaster from a security perspective and makes a total mockery of the double standards of additional security the US demands overseas.
Greetings from Hong Kong.... a subsidiary of China Inc.
 
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B727skyguy
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RE: TSA Failed To Catch Man With Loaded Gun

Wed Nov 18, 2015 2:50 am

Quoting Cubsrule (Reply 30):
I'm aware that they generally have a poor rate of finding prohibited items, but I was asking about guns specifically.

According to this more detailed article from Forbes, guns and fake bombs are specifically what the TSA missed.

http://www.forbes.com/sites/danielre...anding-that-congress-do-something/
 
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fr8mech
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RE: TSA Failed To Catch Man With Loaded Gun

Wed Nov 18, 2015 4:02 am

Quoting bennett123 (Reply 27):
IMO, there should be no guns in hand luggage. Period.

There are no guns allowed in carry-on luggage.

Quoting smokeybandit (Reply 21):
There are plenty of people who legally carry loaded guns and do so with great caution and responsibility. There are plenty of innocent reasons the gun would be in a bag. Big deal.

If the guy forgot his firearm was in the bag, he loses points for "great caution and responsibility".

Quoting scbriml (Reply 31):
A loaded gun on a plane is no big deal?

A loaded gun on a plane is not a big deal. A loaded gun in the hands of someone willing to do evil is a big deal, whether on an aircraft or not.

My gun/range bag never travels with me as carry-on. Never.
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