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northwestEWR
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Delta Comfort+ Moving Towards True Y+ Product

Tue Nov 17, 2015 4:23 am

Surprised nobody posted this already. This has been in the works for a while now and come May, Delta Comfort+ will start being sold as a W fare class. http://news.delta.com/delta-comfort-...ow-available-fare-domestic-flights

This is the first step towards a true Premium Economy product at Delta. The little birdies are saying it will be officially launched with an entirely new A350 cabin and immediately retrofitted onto the 767-400ER and 777-200ER/LRs with the A330 to follow. It's going to be a BIG deal.
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HPAEAA
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RE: Delta Comfort+ Moving Towards True Y+ Product

Tue Nov 17, 2015 4:31 am

Quoting northwestEWR (Thread starter):
Surprised nobody posted this already. This has been in the works for a while now and come May, Delta Comfort+ will start being sold as a W fare class. http://news.delta.com/delta-comfort-...ow-available-fare-domestic-flights

This is the first step towards a true Premium Economy product at Delta. The little birdies are saying it will be officially launched with an entirely new A350 cabin and immediately retrofitted onto the 767-400ER and 777-200ER/LRs with the A330 to follow. It's going to be a BIG deal.

Nice - glad to see one of the US3 getting on the bandwagon, don't know the results behind the curtin but most INTL carriers have been selling this for a while at quite a ~50% premium (based on my looks at BA, CX, JL) - how does this affect the Elites? do upgrades now get priced higher for Y passengers that want to move in to J?
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TW870
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RE: Delta Comfort+ Moving Towards True Y+ Product

Tue Nov 17, 2015 4:47 am

So what is the scoop on this from a business perspective? The product stays the same from what I can tell from the link. What is the difference between buying on the first screen versus clicking on the up-sell later on in the purchase process? Obviously they think they can mark it up further up front in the buying process.

This is a domestic only initiative now. Any rumors about how medallions fit in? Can diamonds still chose W for no extra charge at booking? Will golds still be able to upgrade at no extra charge 3-days out? Or, conversely, is there going to be an upgrade list for it?

Inquiring minds want to know.
 
PSU.DTW.SCE
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RE: Delta Comfort+ Moving Towards True Y+ Product

Tue Nov 17, 2015 4:58 am

E+ in its current form, is a waste of money for anyone to actually pay to sit in those seats. 2" more leg room, 1 free drink and a pass through the snack basket is not a good value, especially when its $59-$89 on 2-3 hour flights.

At least there is some better value on flights with A/G first class fares at reasonable prices, particularly on flghts over 2+ hours.

We'll see if E+ actually becomes a better value prop that its current form, at least other than for elites who can get there for free. The stupid part is the middle seats in E+, where most would rather have an aisle or window in regular coach seat.

I don't know, there is a tipping point somewhere.
 
ericm2031
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RE: Delta Comfort+ Moving Towards True Y+ Product

Tue Nov 17, 2015 5:03 am

AA and UA need to come up with more than just some leg room. They are way behind DL on this
 
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DocLightning
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RE: Delta Comfort+ Moving Towards True Y+ Product

Tue Nov 17, 2015 5:20 am

A fare change does not a major upgrade make.
-Doc Lightning-

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FlyMKG
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RE: Delta Comfort+ Moving Towards True Y+ Product

Tue Nov 17, 2015 5:21 am

Quoting PSU.DTW.SCE (Reply 3):
E+ in its current form, is a waste of money for anyone to actually pay to sit in those seats. 2" more leg room, 1 free drink and a pass through the snack basket is not a good value, especially when its $59-$89 on 2-3 hour flights.

It is absolutely worth the extra cost. I'm 6'4" and it's significantly more comfortable that regular economy. Also, it's unlimited free drinks for the entire flight. The catch is you need to keep ringing the FAs. They won't keep offering them to you.

FlyMKG
 
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northwestEWR
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RE: Delta Comfort+ Moving Towards True Y+ Product

Tue Nov 17, 2015 5:45 am

Quoting HPAEAA (Reply 1):
how does this affect the Elites?

No change at this time.

Quoting TW870 (Reply 2):
This is a domestic only initiative now. Any rumors about how medallions fit in? Can diamonds still chose W for no extra charge at booking? Will golds still be able to upgrade at no extra charge 3-days out? Or, conversely, is there going to be an upgrade list for it?

No changes for Medallions.

Quoting DocLightning (Reply 5):
A fare change does not a major upgrade make.

Of course, but this is the major backend change that makes a true Y+ possible. This is only the first step.

Quoting PSU.DTW.SCE (Reply 3):
E+ in its current form, is a waste of money for anyone to actually pay to sit in those seats. 2" more leg room, 1 free drink and a pass through the snack basket is not a good value, especially when its $59-$89 on 2-3 hour flights.

Key word: Current form. BIG changes are coming to Comfort+, this being the first step.
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tortugamon
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RE: Delta Comfort+ Moving Towards True Y+ Product

Tue Nov 17, 2015 6:45 am

Quoting ericm2031 (Reply 4):
AA and UA need to come up with more than just some leg room. They are way behind DL on this

Sure doesn't sound like the DL concept involves much more than leg room. Drinks, a premium snack basket, first to board? As soon as we see the number of seats change per row then I think we will just stick with calling this economy plus.

Quoting DocLightning (Reply 5):
A fare change does not a major upgrade make.

Agreed.

tortugamon
 
ericm2031
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RE: Delta Comfort+ Moving Towards True Y+ Product

Tue Nov 17, 2015 7:59 am

Quoting tortugamon (Reply 8):
Sure doesn't sound like the DL concept involves much more than leg room. Drinks, a premium snack basket, first to board? As soon as we see the number of seats change per row then I think we will just stick with calling this economy plus.

Early boarding/dedicated bin space, drinks, snacks, free entertainment. Sure seems like a lot more than just legroom. I'm not saying it's enough to call it premium economy, but neither are the airlines. I was just saying they are definitely ahead of UA and AA on the issue.
 
jacobin777
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RE: Delta Comfort+ Moving Towards True Y+ Product

Tue Nov 17, 2015 8:07 am

Quoting PSU.DTW.SCE (Reply 3):
2" more leg room,

Sure in 'ell does make a difference.   

Quoting tortugamon (Reply 8):
Sure doesn't sound like the DL concept involves much more than leg room. Drinks, a premium snack basket, first to board? As soon as we see the number of seats change per row then I think we will just stick with calling this economy plus.

You did go over this (see below) part, no?

Quoting northwestEWR (Reply 7):
Of course, but this is the major backend change that makes a true Y+ possible. This is only the first step.
"Up the Irons!"
 
MAH4546
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RE: Delta Comfort+ Moving Towards True Y+ Product

Tue Nov 17, 2015 8:12 am

Quoting northwestEWR (Reply 7):
Quoting HPAEAA (Reply 1):
how does this affect the Elites?

No change at this time.

There are major changes, including only allowing one companion to select a + seat, upgrade lists for the + cabin and being able to use upgrade instruments into the cabin. A huge devaluation.
a.
 
r2rho
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RE: Delta Comfort+ Moving Towards True Y+ Product

Tue Nov 17, 2015 9:27 am

I disagree with the "True Y+" evaluation of the thread title. True Y+ is what DL already has. The other thing, premium economy, is an euphemism for J minus, simply worded in a politically correct way for corporate booking agencies.

I for one actually like true Y+ products like on DL or KL - pay a bit more to get a bit more - and that kind of model regularly gets my business. J minus products like on LH - pay twice to get somewhat more - will not see business from people traveling on their own money but willing to pay a bit more for comfort.

So, it depends on where DL wants to go with its product. True Y+ does not cannibalize J bookings. Premium Economy / J minus does, and puts off those Y passengers willing to pay a bit more for comfort.
 
Alitalia744
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RE: Delta Comfort+ Moving Towards True Y+ Product

Tue Nov 17, 2015 11:07 am

Quoting northwestEWR (Reply 7):
No changes for Medallions.

There are significant changes for Medallions - beginning May 2016 you can no longer auto select these seats without paying in advance and Delta is treating them as WU/WO inventory meaning you may be complimentary upgraded into a Econ+ seat (including middle seats...)
Some see lines, others see between the lines.
 
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enilria
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RE: Delta Comfort+ Moving Towards True Y+ Product

Tue Nov 17, 2015 12:19 pm

Quoting PSU.DTW.SCE (Reply 3):
E+ in its current form, is a waste of money for anyone to actually pay to sit in those seats. 2" more leg room, 1 free drink and a pass through the snack basket is not a good value, especially when its $59-$89 on 2-3 hour flights.

At least there is some better value on flights with A/G first class fares at reasonable prices, particularly on flghts over 2+ hours.

We'll see if E+ actually becomes a better value prop that its current form, at least other than for elites who can get there for free. The stupid part is the middle seats in E+, where most would rather have an aisle or window in regular coach seat.

I don't know, there is a tipping point somewhere.

It's both brilliant and horrible to worsen coach to the point that people are willing to pay extra to return it to the level it was at a few years ago.

Quoting Alitalia744 (Reply 13):
Quoting northwestEWR (Reply 7):
No changes for Medallions.

There are significant changes for Medallions - beginning May 2016 you can no longer auto select these seats without paying in advance and Delta is treating them as WU/WO inventory meaning you may be complimentary upgraded into a Econ+ seat (including middle seats...)

So, regardless of your elite level you will no longer be able to pre-select Comfort+ seats at the time of booking? Wow, another huge downgrade to the Medallion program. This is domestic and int'l or just int'l?
 
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cathay747
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RE: Delta Comfort+ Moving Towards True Y+ Product

Tue Nov 17, 2015 12:42 pm

Quoting TW870 (Reply 2):
What is the difference between buying on the first screen versus clicking on the up-sell later on in the purchase process?

The difference is that by making it an actual bookable
fare bucket/inventory, like foreign flags do, they can
increase the uptake of the product because travel
management companies (TMC's, i.e. American Express
Global Business Travel, Carlson, BCD, etc.) could
book and ticket it for corp. travelers. And for those
corporations, it makes it more transparent (and easier
from an accounting standpoint) because they don't
have their travelers going on airline websites after
ticket issuance (on the corp. card) and upgrading
& paying for E+ with their own personal cards and
then trying to submit for reimbursement.
Try a Little VC-10derness
 
AABB777
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RE: Delta Comfort+ Moving Towards True Y+ Product

Tue Nov 17, 2015 12:43 pm

Cranky Flier has a posting about this and breaks down by who wins and who loses. There are certainly many changes that affect elites.

http://crankyflier.com/2015/11/16/wi...n-selling-comfort-as-its-own-fare/
 
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PITingres
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RE: Delta Comfort+ Moving Towards True Y+ Product

Tue Nov 17, 2015 1:38 pm

Quoting PSU.DTW.SCE (Reply 3):
E+ in its current form, is a waste of money for anyone to actually pay to sit in those seats.

I disagree 100%. I will usually pay E+ on flights over a couple hours, even if I have to do it out of my own pocket. Just the extra couple inches is worth it, so that I can work without having the laptop jammed nearly in my face because the guy in front of me reclined.

In my case at least, there's zero chance that I will fly a more expensive Y+/J- product, because I'm not going to pay a 50% premium and there's zero chance that the company will pay. I'm willing to bet that that will be true for a very large portion of corporate worker-bee type travelers like myself. (I have often wondered who is paying for those seats up front, because it sure as hell isn't any company I ever worked for -- no matter what your position.)

Edited to add: The main downside of the new fare scheme for me is the inability to pick and choose. I'd often upgrade one leg, eg a TATL return which is a daytime flight. I don't want to pay for comfort+ on all legs of a trip and it looks like now I have to, which may end up pricing it out of my price range. (Meaning, beyond what I can get reimbursed for.)

[Edited 2015-11-17 05:44:08]
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roseflyer
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RE: Delta Comfort+ Moving Towards True Y+ Product

Tue Nov 17, 2015 1:58 pm

Unless the seat is wider and has enough extra legroom to have a leg rest, I'd never pay for it. Some premium economy seats are actually more comfortable for sleeping. A few extra inches of legroom isn't much. United has been giving it away for its elites for over 10 years. For a new fare class, they need to put in a seat that actually is more comfortable for long haul.
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airzim
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RE: Delta Comfort+ Moving Towards True Y+ Product

Tue Nov 17, 2015 2:01 pm

Quoting Alitalia744 (Reply 13):
There are significant changes for Medallions - beginning May 2016 you can no longer auto select these seats without paying in advance and Delta is treating them as WU/WO inventory meaning you may be complimentary upgraded into a Econ+ seat (including middle seats...)

Agreed, this is a major step backwards for any Elite level, even Diamond. Having only a guaranteed Econ minus seat and hope for a better seat will be available close to departure is a massive devaluation in benefits from today.

I do wonder if there are going to have a flexible curtain like concept. Do they oversell Economy minus and spill 'upgrades' into Comfort + at departure. Or will DL keep cabin integrity limit the flow between cabins?

DL is taking a huge risk, not only pissing off Elites, but potentially chocking off demand (if someone is looking for a Econ seat and migrates to another carrier if only E+ is available and they won't pay the high premium).

I really hope UA doesn't go down this path. International long haul is one thing, but doing this on the domestic network is potentially devastating.
 
cgnnrw
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RE: Delta Comfort+ Moving Towards True Y+ Product

Tue Nov 17, 2015 2:23 pm

Quoting PSU.DTW.SCE (Reply 3):
E+ in its current form, is a waste of money for anyone to actually pay to sit in those seats. 2" more leg room, 1 free drink and a pass through the snack basket is not a good value, especially when its $59-$89 on 2-3 hour flights.

I've done E+ twice to/from Europe to the US and it was a better experience. We were allowed to board right after the Biz cabin but before the families with children, etc. Much nicer being able to get right to your seat without have to wait for a bunch smoes store their luggage, playing musical seats, etc. Also the extra legroom does make a difference on a TATL fight. Each time I was in E+ the seat next to me was empty which is an extra bonus. My last flight CDG-PHL on the 757 "my half" of the row was empty, which allowed me to enjoy the middle seat and spread my stuff out the seats next to me. The meal service was the same, booze is free anyway on TATL.

The price was reasonalbe....around EUR 75-80. Not a bad deal on a EUR 650,- ticket
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jetblue1965
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RE: Delta Comfort+ Moving Towards True Y+ Product

Tue Nov 17, 2015 2:48 pm

Quoting airzim (Reply 19):

Agreed, this is a major step backwards for any Elite level, even Diamond. Having only a guaranteed Econ minus seat and hope for a better seat will be available close to departure is a massive devaluation in benefits from today.

I do wonder if there are going to have a flexible curtain like concept. Do they oversell Economy minus and spill 'upgrades' into Comfort at departure. Or will DL keep cabin integrity limit the flow between cabins?

DL is taking a huge risk, not only pissing off Elites, but potentially chocking off demand (if someone is looking for a Econ seat and migrates to another carrier if only E is available and they won't pay the high premium).

I really hope UA doesn't go down this path. International long haul is one thing, but doing this on the domestic network is potentially devastating.

The risk is real. With AA and UA, if the elite fails to clear the upgrade, the chance to sit in MCE/E+ is still decent. With DL's new attempts to monetize C+, the chance of elites having to sit in E- is much higher.

My understanding from what I'm reading is that the Golds and Silvers are placed onto some sort of "C+ upgrade list" instead of just directly clicking on a seat at their designated window.
 
VgnAtl747
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RE: Delta Comfort+ Moving Towards True Y+ Product

Tue Nov 17, 2015 2:50 pm

Quoting cgnnrw (Reply 20):
"my half" of the row was empty, which allowed me to enjoy the middle seat and spread my stuff out the seats next to me

"Enjoy the middle seat"... there's a phrase you don't hear too much. Though we all know that's code for "I sat in the middle seat so someone else didn't seize the opportunity for an aisle with an empty middle".  
Work Hard. Fly Right. Continental Airlines
 
cgnnrw
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RE: Delta Comfort+ Moving Towards True Y+ Product

Tue Nov 17, 2015 2:57 pm

Quoting VgnAtl747 (Reply 22):
"Enjoy the middle seat"... there's a phrase you don't hear too much. Though we all know that's code for "I sat in the middle seat so someone else didn't seize the opportunity for an aisle with an empty middle".

LOL. Not possible in E+ unless you're already in E+. In fact on the CDG-PHL flight a guy actually tried to do this but FA came and asked him where his original seat was when he said row XXX she told him these seats are reserved for E+ customers. When he said "yeah but nobody is seating here" she was firm but polite and told him E+ are for purchase only and if he wished to sit there she would be more than happy to charge a credit card of his choice EUR 150! It goes without saying he quickly returned to his original seat.
A330 man.
 
FSDan
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RE: Delta Comfort+ Moving Towards True Y+ Product

Tue Nov 17, 2015 3:01 pm

As a Silver Medallion member on DL, I can't say I'm a fan of this. I almost never get upgraded to F when I'm flying out of MSN because there are tons of other DL elites in the area, but I was commonly able to upgrade to an Economy Comfort seat 24 hours before departure, and I definitely wouldn't choose the upgrade if it wasn't a window seat. Soon we will be at the point where I can get all the benefits of being a Silver Medallion member just by holding a DL credit card, at which point I will strongly consider moving my flying to AA. If AA upped their service standards and did simple things like offering snacks to economy passengers on domestic flights, I would probably already be over there.

There have been many changes to SkyMiles lately, but none that make me exited to be a SkyMiles member. I hope DL figures this out.
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GSPSPOT
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RE: Delta Comfort+ Moving Towards True Y+ Product

Tue Nov 17, 2015 3:09 pm

Quoting ericm2031 (Reply 9):
I was just saying they are definitely ahead of UA and AA on the issue.

...and I sincerely hope they are paying attention!
Great Lakes, great life.
 
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b727fa
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RE: Delta Comfort+ Moving Towards True Y+ Product

Tue Nov 17, 2015 3:12 pm

Quoting PSU.DTW.SCE (Reply 3):
2" more leg room, 1 free drink

As other folks have said, it's up to 4" of room, more recline, drinks are not restricted...

On longer flights the value goes up even more.
My comments/opinions are my own and are not to be construed as the opinion(s) of my employer.
 
Osubuckeyes
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RE: Delta Comfort+ Moving Towards True Y+ Product

Tue Nov 17, 2015 3:12 pm

I think this is another intermediary step towards DL removing comp upgrades to F for Silver and Gold for sure, possibly Platinums.

From a domestic perspective, Y+ value varies widely. It really isn't a great benefit on anything under 2 hours. 2+ hours depending how it is priced it could be, but even still the product is marginally better than normal Y.

From an international perspective, for DL to be charging it as premium economy the product should improve. My guess is that they will put in new recliner style seats similar to domestic F. I also would guess that this will be their opportunity to take the 777s to 10 across and just leave "Y+" as 9 across.

The interesting thing will be how upgrades are handled for medallions. If I'm a Silver or Gold I sure as hell don't want to be bumped into a Y+ middle seat from an aisle in the back. I also think that DL is making it challenging for customers to actually purchase what they want by making things so complicated and somewhat confusing.
 
TW870
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RE: Delta Comfort+ Moving Towards True Y+ Product

Tue Nov 17, 2015 4:07 pm

It seems like the big pushback is going to be on the silver/gold upgrade list for C+. People (I) am going to hate that, for as other posters have said you risk losing your aisle seat in exchange for a C+ middle. It would make the medallions much happier to just leave it the same as now. If a gold sees a C+ aisle 72 hours out, they just take it. For those in the know, is the idea that they are going to use the upgrade list because they want to hold back the inventory in that 72 hour window before departure, so C+ fares continue to be for sale? I assume this is the reason - and that they will just run the upgrade list at the gate.
 
PRAirbus
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RE: Delta Comfort+ Moving Towards True Y+ Product

Tue Nov 17, 2015 4:35 pm

DELTA truly is or trying really good to be the best US Major carrier...always investing and innovating.
 
VgnAtl747
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RE: Delta Comfort+ Moving Towards True Y+ Product

Tue Nov 17, 2015 4:39 pm

Quoting FSDan (Reply 24):
Soon we will be at the point where I can get all the benefits of being a Silver Medallion member just by holding a DL credit card, at which point I will strongly consider moving my flying to AA.

*Soon*? I think we're pretty much there already, and not just with DL. I'm Gold, about to be Plat on UA, and I'll say that even as a Gold on a W fare I rarely get a CPU... yes Silvers are entitled to the seat if it's available, but let's be honest that it's pretty rare that a Silver on any carrier is getting a CPU these days. I'm not sure for DL, but at UA, CC holders are put in the same boarding group as Silver/Gold anyway, so they basically are getting the same perks as someone who has schlepped out 50k in BIS flying if you consider the upgrade "perk" a wash.

Quoting b727fa (Reply 26):
On longer flights the value goes up even more.

Absolutely. I rarely shelled out for 2-3 hour domestic hops, but on a 6+ hour TATL, especially overnights, that few extra inches of leg room does make a big difference. This will likely change the way elites are able to pre-select, but at least for me at UA, being Gold so I could preselect Y+ at time of booking was the second-best perk to maintaining the status. As silver, I found myself shelling out for Y+ in advance to ensure I got it on long routes, so letting elites pre-select that was a huge plus. I fear that a real Y+ booked as W class is likely going to mean only people who buy W are listed for CPUs to First, and people who buy Y- would only be upgraded to Y+. It makes sense, but it would be a blow to elite benefits.

Quoting Osubuckeyes (Reply 27):
From a domestic perspective, Y+ value varies widely. It really isn't a great benefit on anything under 2 hours. 2+ hours depending how it is priced it could be, but even still the product is marginally better than normal Y.

While I tend to agree, don't paint everyone with the same brush. If you were 6' 5" you'd probably have a different opinion and pretty much see that extra few inches as a necessity to make any flight of any duration bearable.

Quoting Osubuckeyes (Reply 27):
From an international perspective, for DL to be charging it as premium economy the product should improve. My guess is that they will put in new recliner style seats similar to domestic F. I also would guess that this will be their opportunity to take the 777s to 10 across and just leave "Y+" as 9 across.

I hope that this is the start of that, and that UA follows suit. It would be a big perk to Economy Comfort and Economy Plus to have Y be one less seat across with more shoulder room than Y-. I'm curious if the new information sharing between DL and VS has shown them some data to back up that a true W class with the right hard product, marketed and priced competitively is good for the business. I never flew VS J, but flew W a number of times NYC-LON and for the price always saw great value there. If DL is taking a page out of their playbook then it's a win-win and hopefully will light a fire under other US carriers to do the same and remain competitive.
Work Hard. Fly Right. Continental Airlines
 
INFINITI329
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RE: Delta Comfort+ Moving Towards True Y+ Product

Tue Nov 17, 2015 4:41 pm

Quoting FlyMKG (Reply 6):
unlimited free drinks for the entire flight

the good stuff? or the regular coke stuff?
 
deltairlines
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RE: Delta Comfort+ Moving Towards True Y+ Product

Tue Nov 17, 2015 4:45 pm

Quoting infiniti329 (Reply 31):
the good stuff? or the regular coke stuff?

Comfort+ is free alcohol all the time.
 
jetblue1965
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RE: Delta Comfort+ Moving Towards True Y+ Product

Tue Nov 17, 2015 4:48 pm

Quoting VgnAtl747 (Reply 30):
I fear that a real Y+ booked as W class is likely going to mean only people who buy W are listed for CPUs to First, and people who buy Y- would only be upgraded to Y+. It makes sense, but it would be a blow to elite benefits.

This is very plausible what DL eventually wants. Great for monetization, bad for lower level elites.

The biggest risk is if DL over-improves C+ and causes more frugal corporate clients to switch long-haul travel from J to C+.

Quoting PRAirbus (Reply 29):
DELTA truly is or trying really good to be the best US Major carrier...always investing and innovating.

More than 20 airlines globally have a form of true PY. How exactly is that "innovation" ? Even the fare code "W" is considered the standard of many airlines for PY.
 
global1
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RE: Delta Comfort+ Moving Towards True Y+ Product

Tue Nov 17, 2015 4:58 pm

Exactly.

We must continue to innovate, improve, and further widen the distance with the rest of the pack.
If you don't , you'll soon become irrelevant .

If the concept is successful, you'll see others adapting.

And yes, it is my understanding that a soft cabin divider will be featured in domestic Y.

Can't speak to what the plans are for international, but 2017 is shaping up to be a transformational year at Delta.
By then you'll have a truly consistent product across the board.
An advantage from being a first mover in the consolidation wave.
 
EMB170
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RE: Delta Comfort+ Moving Towards True Y+ Product

Tue Nov 17, 2015 5:00 pm

It doesn't sound like DL is materially going to change regular Y to something less than it already is on longhaul. Rather, it sounds like they will put in a new W seat that's fewer across, more akin to how VS, AF, and AZ have their W cabins now, and that such a product will only be installed on longhaul aircraft (think 359, 764, 77E/L, 332/333, and maybe? 75S).

I am guessing that the 747-400 and 767-300 fleets will not see this W product as they are beginning to be retired from the fleet. Can someone at DL confirm? How will the TATL 75S fleet be handled? Will DL go with a product similar to what OpenSkies has?
IND ORD ATL MCO PIT EWR BUF CVG DEN RNO JFK DTW BOS BDL BWI IAD RDU CLT MYR CHS TPA CID MSP STL MSY DFW IAH AUS SLC LAS
 
jetblue1965
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RE: Delta Comfort+ Moving Towards True Y+ Product

Tue Nov 17, 2015 5:22 pm

One un-mentioned issue about a separate cabin is that by UK APD rules, anything other than the lowest cabin level will be subject to the higher "standard" APD.

In the old system where C+ is just a legroom buy-up, the APD stays the same at £71. When C+ becomes its own cabin (aligning with VS's PE), it'll double to £142 for any transatlantic segment. This is on top of the additional fares and excise tax that comes with a "W" fare class.
 
tortugamon
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RE: Delta Comfort+ Moving Towards True Y+ Product

Tue Nov 17, 2015 5:23 pm

Quoting ericm2031 (Reply 9):
Early boarding/dedicated bin space, drinks, snacks, free entertainment. Sure seems like a lot more than just legroom. I'm not saying it's enough to call it premium economy, but neither are the airlines. I was just saying they are definitely ahead of UA and AA on the issue.

Fair enough. Not sure UA/AA need to respond though. This isn't a major change in my opinion. Its still Y+, maybe Y++ but still not premium economy. Its another data point to see if the economy fair can be fragmented.

Quoting jacobin777 (Reply 10):
You did go over this (see below) part, no?

Quoting northwestEWR (Reply 7):
Of course, but this is the major backend change that makes a true Y+ possible. This is only the first step.

Sure I did. My comment was responding to him. I agree with this take.

Quoting r2rho (Reply 12):
I disagree with the "True Y+" evaluation of the thread title. True Y+ is what DL already has. The other thing, premium economy, is an euphemism for J minus, simply worded in a politically correct way for corporate booking agencies.

Agreed.


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Osubuckeyes
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RE: Delta Comfort+ Moving Towards True Y+ Product

Tue Nov 17, 2015 5:37 pm

Quoting VgnAtl747 (Reply 30):
While I tend to agree, don't paint everyone with the same brush. If you were 6' 5" you'd probably have a different opinion and pretty much see that extra few inches as a necessity to make any flight of any duration bearable.

I'm sure some have a different opinion, but I am 6'4" so I feel fairly confident in saying that my upper bound in Y in terms of flight length is about 2 hours. Others obviously have different value propositions, but on shorter flights really don't warrant the extra cash, price and scheduled are king DL or otherwise.

Quoting VgnAtl747 (Reply 30):
It would be a big perk to Economy Comfort and Economy Plus to have Y be one less seat across with more shoulder room than Y-.

Right I don't disagree, but it really isn't an improvement if they go 10 across in Y and 9 in Y+ on the 777s as that what it currently is for both Y & Y+. It is a devaluation for everyone involved. Now if they went to 8 across DL has my attention.
 
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OA412
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RE: Delta Comfort+ Moving Towards True Y+ Product

Tue Nov 17, 2015 5:52 pm

I did a dummy booking, and interestingly enough, comfort+ is, at least as of now, only offered as a separate class on domestic flight. International flights only sell Y and J, and still allow you to purchase a comfort+ seat with a Y ticket. However, I did notice there's a separate column for "Premium Economy" that's now been added to international reservations, but those fares just showed as "unavailable."
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MSPNWA
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RE: Delta Comfort+ Moving Towards True Y+ Product

Tue Nov 17, 2015 5:59 pm

Domestically this is only a downgrade for everyone and a major devaluation for elites. International remains to be seen, but I wouldn't have my hopes up. For DL, it's never about the customer. It's always about the bottom line.
 
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RE: Delta Comfort+ Moving Towards True Y+ Product

Tue Nov 17, 2015 6:03 pm

Quoting MSPNWA (Reply 40):
For DL, it's never about the customer. It's always about the bottom line.

Yeah that's true about each of the legacies in this country. You really think AA and UA care about the customer? You really think NW cared about the customer? It's always about the bottom line.
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RE: Delta Comfort+ Moving Towards True Y+ Product

Tue Nov 17, 2015 6:04 pm

Quoting OA412 (Reply 41):
Yeah that's true about each of the legacies in this country. You really think AA and UA care about the customer? You really think NW cared about the customer? It's always about the bottom line.

For the most part, yes. But I find more loopholes with them where I can take the advantage. And DL is more aggressive at disguising downgrades as an enhancement. And none of the legacies can compare to WN.

[Edited 2015-11-17 10:05:37]
 
PlanesNTrains
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RE: Delta Comfort+ Moving Towards True Y+ Product

Tue Nov 17, 2015 6:16 pm

Quoting MSPNWA (Reply 40):
For DL, it's never about the customer. It's always about the bottom line.

With all due respect, duh. That's just the kind of spin someone puts on it when they aren't happy. The fact is ALL airlines make decisions for the bottom line, even if they are directly beneficial to the customer.

I'm not a Delta apologist by any stretch, and don't/won't fly them, but they are doing many things right and customers overall seem quite happy. It seems to me as someone who doesn't do the ff program thing (you'd have to be a frequent flyer to do that!) that they are trying to monetize their product in a way that reflects the value while at the same time offers their most elite flyers better options/perks. I'd think that's a good thing.

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jetblue1965
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RE: Delta Comfort+ Moving Towards True Y+ Product

Tue Nov 17, 2015 6:30 pm

Quoting OA412 (Reply 41):

Yeah that's true about each of the legacies in this country. You really think AA and UA care about the customer? You really think NW cared about the customer? It's always about the bottom line.

For starters, AA and UA still publish award charts (even though their online pricing engine occasionally mis-prices things).

DL hides the award charts, so to the unsuspecting eye, a mis-priced itinerary is no different than the lack of inventory at the low levels, which reduces the incentive for DL IT to even fix bugs whenever the mispricing is in DL's favor.
 
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RE: Delta Comfort+ Moving Towards True Y+ Product

Tue Nov 17, 2015 6:51 pm

Quoting MSPNWA (Reply 42):
And DL is more aggressive at disguising downgrades as an enhancement.

Meh in a lot of ways they're just ahead of the pack. The others tend to follow a lot of what they do. But with consolidation, it doesn't matter. DL can degrade their FF program to nothing and people will still fly them because of how big they are. Same with UA and AA. The airlines are in the driver's seat, and they know it. All 3 of the legacies have their plusses and minues with respect to customer benefits, but those loopholes aren't there because they're trying to be more customer-friendly, they're there because they positively impact the bottom line.

Quoting MSPNWA (Reply 42):
And none of the legacies can compare to WN.

I agree, which is why almost all of my business goes to them. As long as they don't implement change fees, that won't change. Choosing between the legacies is choosing between the lesser of evils.

Quoting PlanesNTrains (Reply 43):
With all due respect, duh. That's just the kind of spin someone puts on it when they aren't happy. The fact is ALL airlines make decisions for the bottom line, even if they are directly beneficial to the customer.

  

Quoting jetblue1965 (Reply 44):

If the others could hide them, they would too. As I said, they each have their strengths and weaknesses. DL is better at one thing, UA at another, and AA at still another. But at the end of the day, they're all in it to positively impact the bottom line.
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AAlaxfan
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RE: Delta Comfort+ Moving Towards True Y+ Product

Tue Nov 17, 2015 7:02 pm

Quoting MSPNWA (Reply 42):
And none of the legacies can compare to WN.

Which is why I never fly WN for anything longer than 1 hour. No F, J or even Y+. Same crappy legroom throughout the cabin. Can't be guaranteed a seat even if purchased 6 months in advance. At least the big 3 give you options for seating. I'll take that vs a baggage fee.

As for DL and the new W fares. Just a way to get more money. Do you really think someone is going to drink enough alcohol or eat more snacks to justify the difference in a Y to W fare.

[Edited 2015-11-17 11:04:24]
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MSPNWA
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RE: Delta Comfort+ Moving Towards True Y+ Product

Tue Nov 17, 2015 7:22 pm

Quoting PlanesNTrains (Reply 43):
With all due respect, duh. That's just the kind of spin someone puts on it when they aren't happy. The fact is ALL airlines make decisions for the bottom line, even if they are directly beneficial to the customer.

Why is there no spin needed when WN does not follow the crowd on bag and change fees? Or when B6 maintains its superior legroom for all fares? Both are likely hurting their bottom line, but they've drawn a line in the sand and will take the hit instead of the customer.

Take a look at the press release. There's nothing positive for the customer with this change, yet with spin an airline can make it look that way.
 
PGNCS
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RE: Delta Comfort+ Moving Towards True Y+ Product

Tue Nov 17, 2015 7:23 pm

Quoting DTW.SCE" class="quote" target="_blank">PSU.DTW.SCE (Reply 3):
E+ in its current form, is a waste of money for anyone to actually pay to sit in those seats. 2" more leg room, 1 free drink and a pass through the snack basket is not a good value, especially when its $59-$89 on 2-3 hour flights.

Not an entirely accurate description, and your opinion. It may be YOUR opinion it's a waste of money, but it is not mine.

Quoting PITingres (Reply 17):
Quoting PSU.DTW.SCE (Reply 3):E+ in its current form, is a waste of money for anyone to actually pay to sit in those seats.
I disagree 100%. I will usually pay E+ on flights over a couple hours, even if I have to do it out of my own pocket. Just the extra couple inches is worth it, so that I can work without having the laptop jammed nearly in my face because the guy in front of me reclined.

I agree, PIT. I pay for it whenever I can and have no qualms doing so.

Quoting roseflyer (Reply 18):
Unless the seat is wider and has enough extra legroom to have a leg rest, I'd never pay for it.

Your choice; others choose to pay for it and are happy with their decision.

Quoting cgnnrw (Reply 20):
I've done E+ twice to/from Europe to the US and it was a better experience.

I have done it too, and couldn't agree more. Money very well spent.

Quoting b727fa (Reply 26):
Quoting PSU.DTW.SCE (Reply 3):2" more leg room, 1 free drink As other folks have said, it's up to 4" of room, more recline, drinks are not restricted...On longer flights the value goes up even more.

Correct. Good points all.

Quoting VgnAtl747 (Reply 30):
Quoting Osubuckeyes (Reply 27):From a domestic perspective, Y+ value varies widely. It really isn't a great benefit on anything under 2 hours. 2+ hours depending how it is priced it could be, but even still the product is marginally better than normal Y.While I tend to agree, don't paint everyone with the same brush.

Indeed VgnAtl747: for some people it IS worth it, for some it is not. I fail to see the problem.

Quoting tortugamon (Reply 37):
Fair enough. Not sure UA/AA need to respond though.

THAT is a GREAT point. There is no need for a competitive response until the marketplace sees how this development goes.

Quoting Osubuckeyes (Reply 38):
Quoting VgnAtl747 (Reply 30):While I tend to agree, don't paint everyone with the same brush. If you were 6' 5" you'd probably have a different opinion and pretty much see that extra few inches as a necessity to make any flight of any duration bearable.I'm sure some have a different opinion, but I am 6'4" so I feel fairly confident in saying that my upper bound in Y in terms of flight length is about 2 hours. Others obviously have different value propositions, but on shorter flights really don't warrant the extra cash, price and scheduled are king DL or otherwise.

IN YOUR OPINION. Other people including me (6'2") do not agree with your assessment.

Quoting MSPNWA (Reply 42):
You really think NW cared about the customer? It's always about the bottom line. For the most part, yes.

Really? You are going to try to convince us the NW cared about the customer more than DL? That's going to be a tough sell for many former NW FFs, including me. At the end of the day every single airline in the country is a for profit business; they make decisions based on the needs of their customers and what their customers are willing to pay. If you don't like the service one provides, you're free to choose another one.

Quoting OA412 (Reply 45):
Quoting MSPNWA (Reply 42):And none of the legacies can compare to WN.I agree, which is why almost all of my business goes to them. As long as they don't implement change fees, that won't change. Choosing between the legacies is choosing between the lesser of evils.

And I couldn't disagree with you more. I prefer all of the legacies to Southwest. I held stock in Southwest for about ten years and it was a good investment. There is no question they do a great job managing customer's expectations and millions adore them. I absolutely abhor being on their planes and do everything in my power to avoid them. I DO think they have great employees, but the entire noisy spectacle from the cattle car boarding to FAs (and occasionally pilots) who can't shut up on the PA and the guarantee of no upgrade make Southwest an absolute last resort for me.
 
Osubuckeyes
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RE: Delta Comfort+ Moving Towards True Y+ Product

Tue Nov 17, 2015 7:29 pm

Quoting PGNCS (Reply 48):
IN YOUR OPINION. Other people including me (6'2") do not agree with your assessment.

Of course it is my opinion, I was merely pointing out that I know what its like to be tall on a plane. Shorter flights schedule and price are a much bigger factor to ME than comfort. I know others that share my OPINION and others that don't.

Quoting PGNCS (Reply 48):
the cattle car boarding

IF you think that is still the truth about WN then you haven't flown them in a decade. They have by far the most organized logical boarding process out of any of the US carriers except for maybe DL's NRT operation.

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