cbphoto
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Allegiant Air To Retire 757/end HNL

Wed Nov 18, 2015 1:21 am

In a youtube and company wide announcement, Allegiant air has announced it will retire the 757 and end HNL service.

HNL service will end early September, 2016 and the last 757 will leave the fleet in the beginning of 2017.

While not surprising, there were talks that the 757s may go through their heavy checks and be in service until 2022 or so, however that doesn't seem to be the case. 2 757s will be parked by the end of this year, with more being parked next year.
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usflyguy
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RE: Allegiant Air To Retire 757/end HNL

Wed Nov 18, 2015 1:27 am

That experiment didn't last long. When did the 757 service start? 2 years ago?
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FWAERJ
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RE: Allegiant Air To Retire 757/end HNL

Wed Nov 18, 2015 1:40 am

Not surprised. The G4 business model is built on hotel and car packages, and Hawaii is dominated by vacation condos/timeshares. You could say that Florida has a lot of condos, too, but most people going to SFB/PIE/PGD/FLL stay at a hotel - something that G4 makes money on.

Further complicating things is that most of the hotel operators in HNL didn't want to partner with G4, so they had far worse hotel offerings in HNL than they do in LAS, Florida, AZA, or even MYR or MSY. Without the popular HNL hotels at their side, G4 was missing out on revenue from hotel rooms.

On a related note: Will the longest of the LAS routes (IND, CVG) move to the A32x, and could we see more used A319s and A320s enter the fleet in 2016/17 than before to offset the 757 retirements? With NEO deliveries starting soon, G4 could start picking up gently used CEOs at dirt-cheap prices. And now that G4 doesn't need an ETOPS plane anymore but could still use an aircraft the size of the 757 from LAS and probably SFB/PIE as well, could we see the A321 entering the G4 fleet?
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cbphoto
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RE: Allegiant Air To Retire 757/end HNL

Wed Nov 18, 2015 1:57 am

Quoting FWAERJ (Reply 2):
On a related note: Will the longest of the LAS routes (IND, CVG) move to the A32x, and could we see more used A319s and A320s enter the fleet in 2016/17 than before to offset the 757 retirements? With NEO deliveries starting soon, G4 could start picking up gently used CEOs at dirt-cheap prices. And now that G4 doesn't need an ETOPS plane anymore but could still use an aircraft the size of the 757 from LAS and probably SFB/PIE as well, could we see the A321 entering the G4 fleet?

Yeah..good questions. Some fleet discussions that have been going around, is to expect mainly more A320s to come to Allegiant in the next few years (somewhere around 6-10 a year) Apparently Allegiant wants more A320s and are looking at modding some of the A320s to a 186 seat configuration.

On that note, starting next year 6-8 MD-80s will be retired every year with the fleet likely being phased out by 2020 or just a bit after. A321s are possible, only after the MD-80s have left the fleet.
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enilria
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RE: Allegiant Air To Retire 757/end HNL

Wed Nov 18, 2015 1:58 am

Boy, that cost a lot of money for nothing...
 
MIflyer12
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RE: Allegiant Air To Retire 757/end HNL

Wed Nov 18, 2015 2:03 am

Quoting FWAERJ (Reply 2):
Not surprised. The G4 business model is built on hotel and car packages, and Hawaii is dominated by vacation condos/timeshares.

No, Hawaii isn't dominated by condo/timeshare rentals. The State of Hawaii makes excellent visitor data available, with clear data sets on accommodations by type.

http://files.hawaii.gov/dbedt/visito...r-research/2014-annual-visitor.pdf

[Edited 2015-11-17 18:04:20]
 
PEK777
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RE: Allegiant Air To Retire 757/end HNL

Wed Nov 18, 2015 2:04 am

If only there was a 757NEO...
 
MaverickM11
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RE: Allegiant Air To Retire 757/end HNL

Wed Nov 18, 2015 2:06 am

Quoting enilria (Reply 4):
Boy, that cost a lot of money for nothing...

   It was poorly conceived from the beginning. I think it would have been far better to pour the money/time into connecting Canada to the US, and/or US to leisure Mexico.

Quoting MIflyer12 (Reply 5):
No, Hawaii isn't dominated by condo/timeshare rentals

   It's a bit like BDA--you can stimulate some demand with cheap airfare, but the destination is still pretty pricey no matter how little you pay for airfare.
E pur si muove -Galileo
 
 
FWAERJ
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RE: Allegiant Air To Retire 757/end HNL

Wed Nov 18, 2015 2:12 am

Quoting cbphoto (Reply 3):
Some fleet discussions that have been going around, is to expect mainly more A320s to come to Allegiant in the next few years (somewhere around 6-10 a year) Apparently Allegiant wants more A320s and are looking at modding some of the A320s to a 186 seat configuration.

Would this consist of more seats and the Airbus Space Flex lav module? Both would be a natural fit for G4.

Quoting cbphoto (Reply 3):
On that note, starting next year 6-8 MD-80s will be retired every year with the fleet likely being phased out by 2020 or just a bit after.

That's just three years after AA retires their last MD-80s. So basically, DL will be the last major MD-80 operator standing in the western hemisphere (after all, the old a.net joke is that after DL retires an A320, the crew will come home on an MD-88).
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cbphoto
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RE: Allegiant Air To Retire 757/end HNL

Wed Nov 18, 2015 2:16 am

Quoting FWAERJ (Reply 9):
Would this consist of more seats and the Airbus Space Flex lav module? Both would be a natural fit for G4

Correct, that's the plan and airbus will be doing the mods in Alabama.
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FWAERJ
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RE: Allegiant Air To Retire 757/end HNL

Wed Nov 18, 2015 2:17 am

Quoting MaverickM11 (Reply 7):
I think it would have been far better to pour the money/time into connecting Canada to the US, and/or US to leisure Mexico.

For the former, G4 does a huge business in US border cities. And border cities like BLI don't suffer from Canada's asinine airport taxation and use fees - I'd say that the highest-cost US airport in the G4 system is cheaper than the lowest-cost potential Canadian airport.

For the latter, until preclearance is added to Mexican leisure airports (which Mexico is, IIRC, dragging its feet on with the DHS), it isn't possible for most G4 airports. Some stations like SBN are adding an FIS, but most don't have one and don't have plans to add one - hence the need for preclearance.
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YVRLTN
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RE: Allegiant Air To Retire 757/end HNL

Wed Nov 18, 2015 2:36 am

At least one has already gone to the scrapman in SGT on 11/4 - N904NV 26967/522.
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nws2002
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RE: Allegiant Air To Retire 757/end HNL

Wed Nov 18, 2015 2:44 am

Can't say this is too surprising. It never really made sense to me, especially after service was cut back to LAX-HNL and LAS-HNL. No reason to keep the 757s around just for that.

I would imagine G4 learned a lot through the process of obtaining ETOPS and becoming a flag carrier. Unrelated to ETOPS, but the last rumor I heard was that Mexico was on the list of sunny destinations.
 
FARmd90
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RE: Allegiant Air To Retire 757/end HNL

Wed Nov 18, 2015 2:58 am

Is there a lot of useful life left in these birds? What are the chances we could see them end up at Iceland Air, either for parts or to add to the fleet? They seem to be on a good roll with new routes and adding more frequencies.
 
SpaceshipDC10
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RE: Allegiant Air To Retire 757/end HNL

Wed Nov 18, 2015 3:09 am

Quoting FARmd90 (Reply 14):
What are the chances we could see them end up at Iceland Air, either for parts or to add to the fleet? They seem to be on a good roll with new routes and adding more frequencies.

They'll receive shortly a couple of 763 for some routes, so this will free-up some 752.
 
FARmd90
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RE: Allegiant Air To Retire 757/end HNL

Wed Nov 18, 2015 3:22 am

Quoting SpaceshipDC10 (Reply 15):

Well really what are those 763 going to be used for? I was reading the other thread and it sounds like they will be placed on LHR, SFO? and JFK. (I could be wrong on those) so at tops how many 757s does that free for them? 2? Which those are going to placed on the other routes they just announced/increase service such as YYZ (or YOW, can't remember).
 
wjcandee
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RE: Allegiant Air To Retire 757/end HNL

Wed Nov 18, 2015 3:42 am

For all you "told you so" folks, I would just observe that a lot of what Allegiant has done was maverick at the time.

They saw an opportunity with the loss of ATA and their Pleasant Hawaiian charters and such in that market.

It didn't work. Big deal.

Some things didn't go their way that might in fact have gone their way. They came in with much fanfare but the model didn't produce enough service reliabilty to avoid harsh media treatment, and the incumbent players worked hard to compete and dry up their choices of hotel. They couldn't overcome it, and they pulled the plug rather than throw good money after bad. Actually, they hung in longer than they usually do.

If businesses don't try new stuff, they are doomed. This wasn't such a big investment that it will make much difference.
 
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lightsaber
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RE: Allegiant Air To Retire 757/end HNL

Wed Nov 18, 2015 4:06 am

Quoting cbphoto (Thread starter):
While not surprising, there were talks that the 757s may go through their heavy checks and be in service until 2022 or so, however that doesn't seem to be the case. 2 757s will be parked by the end of this year, with more being parked next year.

This couldn't be any less of a surprise.

Quoting wjcandee (Reply 17):
I would just observe that a lot of what Allegiant has done was maverick at the time.

They saw an opportunity with the loss of ATA and their Pleasant Hawaiian charters and such in that market.

It didn't work. Big deal.

I admit that I thought it would work. Cest la vie. Nothing ventured nothing gained.

In my opinion, they should wait until the aircraft that fly to HA could also fly in the rest of their network. This will require waiting until A319s with sharklets become available.

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Flighty
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RE: Allegiant Air To Retire 757/end HNL

Wed Nov 18, 2015 4:12 am

Aren't Hawaii fares high right now? Or are they collapsing due to all the adds?
 
luv2cattlecall
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RE: Allegiant Air To Retire 757/end HNL

Wed Nov 18, 2015 4:29 am

Is there a particular reason the Hotels didn't want to team up with G4?
.
 
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TWA772LR
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RE: Allegiant Air To Retire 757/end HNL

Wed Nov 18, 2015 4:29 am

Are these 757s gently used? I think they're RR powered, so I wonder if UA may be interested in them. Some cheap ETOPS 757s should be up their ally.

Quoting FWAERJ (Reply 9):
after all, the old a.net joke is that after DL retires an A320, the crew will come home on an MD-88).

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UA444
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RE: Allegiant Air To Retire 757/end HNL

Wed Nov 18, 2015 5:01 am

Quoting FWAERJ (Reply 9):
That's just three years after AA retires their last MD-80

Two years. And that's if it doesn't change which I hope it will.
 
wjcandee
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RE: Allegiant Air To Retire 757/end HNL

Wed Nov 18, 2015 5:05 am

Quoting luv2cattlecall (Reply 20):
Is there a particular reason the Hotels didn't want to team up with G4?

I'm guessing, but an EWAG would be: (1) horrible negative publicity early on about service reliability that didn't improve after the "give 'em a chance" period was long over; and (2) incumbent packagers that affirmatively pressed their long-time program participants to steer clear of Allegiant.
 
UA444
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RE: Allegiant Air To Retire 757/end HNL

Wed Nov 18, 2015 5:08 am

Quoting TWA772LR (Reply 21):

The G4 ones are RR powered -204s that are early to mid 90s built. I doubt they'd pick them up. I wish they'd stop retiring on the ones they have.
 
ha763
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RE: Allegiant Air To Retire 757/end HNL

Wed Nov 18, 2015 6:40 am

Quoting luv2cattlecall (Reply 20):
Is there a particular reason the Hotels didn't want to team up with G4?

The occupancy rate has been in the 80% range for the past few years, with Oahu experiencing occupancy rate close to 90%. There was no need for any Hawaii hotel to offer any special rates for Allegiant packages. Even the rates for other travel agencies are not always that much better than the best available rate from the hotel.
 
Chuska
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RE: Allegiant Air To Retire 757/end HNL

Wed Nov 18, 2015 11:27 am

We have to give credit to G4 for trying HNL-BOI/EUG/FAT/SMX/GEG/and SCK with the 757's. I thought they were crazy and maybe they were but at least they gave it a try.
 
SpaceshipDC10
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RE: Allegiant Air To Retire 757/end HNL

Wed Nov 18, 2015 11:38 am

Quoting FARmd90 (Reply 16):
Well really what are those 763 going to be used for? I was reading the other thread and it sounds like they will be placed on LHR, SFO? and JFK. (I could be wrong on those) so at tops how many 757s does that free for them? 2? Which those are going to placed on the other routes they just announced/increase service such as YYZ (or YOW, can't remember).

They'll be used to JFK, BOS, MSP, YYZ and LHR as well as AMS I believe.
 
MaverickM11
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RE: Allegiant Air To Retire 757/end HNL

Wed Nov 18, 2015 2:56 pm

Quoting FWAERJ (Reply 11):
For the former, G4 does a huge business in US border cities.
Quoting FWAERJ (Reply 11):
For the latter, until preclearance is added to Mexican leisure airports

Not quite the same...the big obstacle is handling foreign currency, but plenty of Canadian airports have preclearance and love to fly south for the winter. Mexico on the other hand has seen some success with point to point service on DL/AA/UA, and G4's cost structure would mean far more routes are viable. Throw in some really cheap hotel packages and you've got pretty much the same thing as MYR, but with higher fares.

Quoting ha763 (Reply 25):
There was no need for any Hawaii hotel to offer any special rates for Allegiant packages

  It's a tricky destination to stimulate with low fares since the destination remains expensive
E pur si muove -Galileo
 
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lightsaber
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RE: Allegiant Air To Retire 757/end HNL

Wed Nov 18, 2015 3:24 pm

Quoting UA444 (Reply 24):
The G4 ones are RR powered -204s that are early to mid 90s built.

Twenty year old 757s should find a market, but won't be worth much.

From our current thread
Aircraft Values, And Lease Pricing - Fall 2015 (by LAXintl Nov 10 2015 in Civil Aviation)
B757-200 – $2.9 – 14.8M, $60-220,000


This is for 1982 to 2004 757s. So a mid-age 757 should be about $8 or $9 million with adjustments for condition. Time to sell before NEOs and MAXs enter the fleet in numbers to depreciate them further.

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cschleic
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RE: Allegiant Air To Retire 757/end HNL

Wed Nov 18, 2015 3:29 pm

Quoting wjcandee (Reply 23):
Quoting luv2cattlecall (Reply 20):
Is there a particular reason the Hotels didn't want to team up with G4?

I'm guessing, but an EWAG would be: (1) horrible negative publicity early on about service reliability that didn't improve after the "give 'em a chance" period was long over; and (2) incumbent packagers that affirmatively pressed their long-time program participants to steer clear of Allegiant.

Were they at a disadvantage because they aren't a Hawaiian based company? But maybe that's not a disadvantage for others.
 
superjeff
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RE: Allegiant Air To Retire 757/end HNL

Wed Nov 18, 2015 4:00 pm

Quoting FWAERJ (Reply 2):
Not surprised. The G4 business model is built on hotel and car packages, and Hawaii is dominated by vacation condos/timeshares.

Not sure this is true, although there are a lot of condos and timeshares. probably 80-95% of tourist business to Hawaii is hotels.
 
txkf2010
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RE: Allegiant Air To Retire 757/end HNL

Wed Nov 18, 2015 4:42 pm

Quoting MaverickM11 (Reply 7):
It's a bit like BDA--you can stimulate some demand with cheap airfare, but the destination is still pretty pricey no matter how little you pay for airfare.

Now if only our government could understand that
 
neutronstar73
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RE: Allegiant Air To Retire 757/end HNL

Thu Nov 19, 2015 1:33 am

Quoting cschleic (Reply 30):
Were they at a disadvantage because they aren't a Hawaiian based company? But maybe that's not a disadvantage for others.

No way. We have a huge Hawaiian population contingent in Las Vegas so the fact that it wasn't Hawaii-based wouldn't make a difference at all.
 
rbavfan
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RE: Allegiant Air To Retire 757/end HNL

Thu Nov 19, 2015 2:10 am

Quoting nws2002 (Reply 13):
I would imagine G4 learned a lot through the process of obtaining ETOPS and becoming a flag carrier.

ETOPS does not make you a "flag Carrier"
 
rbavfan
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RE: Allegiant Air To Retire 757/end HNL

Thu Nov 19, 2015 2:15 am

Quoting luv2cattlecall (Reply 20):

G4 wants rock bottom hotel prices for their packages. The markets good enough in Hawaii to say no. So they wed left with mostly 3rd tier hotels.
 
flyDTW1992
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RE: Allegiant Air To Retire 757/end HNL

Thu Nov 19, 2015 2:35 am

Quoting rbavfan (Reply 34):
ETOPS does not make you a "flag Carrier"

Hawaii operations fall under the 121 Flag Operations category under FAA regs, if I'm not mistaken.
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F9Animal
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RE: Allegiant Air To Retire 757/end HNL

Thu Nov 19, 2015 2:36 am

I have not been much of a fan of G4 since all of their mx issues, and how the airline treats it's employees. However, I was very hopeful when G4 made the move to Hawaii. Even more excited to see the 757 with the G4 paint. I was planning a trip on them from BLI. Sadly, they announced the cut of service, so I had to change plans. I was also hopeful to see G4 expand the 757 fleet. Sorry, but I still love the 757.

As for slamming G4 for trying Hawaii? No........ G4 went in strong, and really did try to make it work. Let's face it, Hawaii is a hot destination. When ATA and Aloha closed, G4 likely thought there was plenty of potential. I miss Aloha and ATA now.
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FATFlyer
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RE: Allegiant Air To Retire 757/end HNL

Thu Nov 19, 2015 2:41 am

Quoting rbavfan (Reply 34):

ETOPS does not make you a "flag Carrier"

It doesn't. But you need to be a Flag Carrier to serve Hawaii.

From the FAA about Flag Carrier status:
Quote:
2)Locations:
a)Between any point within the State of Alaska or the State of Hawaii or any territory or possession of the United States and any point outside the state of Alaska or the state of Hawaii or any territory or possession of the United States, respectively; or
b)Between any point within the 48 contiguous states of the United States or the District of Columbia and any point outside the 48 contiguous states of the United States and the District of Columbia.
c)Between any point outside the United States and another point outside the United States.

http://fsims.faa.gov/WDocs/8900.1/V0...20Cert/Chapter%2002/02_002_001.htm

Allegiant obtained Flag Carrier status at the same time it received ETOPS in order to operate to Hawaii.

Quote:
"LAS VEGAS, June 12, 2012 (GLOBE NEWSWIRE) -- Allegiant (Nasdaq:ALGT) has obtained Extended-range Operations (ETOPS) certification and Flag Carrier Status from the Federal Aviation Administration (FAA)."
http://ir.allegiantair.com/phoenix.z...7578&p=irol-newsArticle&ID=1773794
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ha763
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RE: Allegiant Air To Retire 757/end HNL

Thu Nov 19, 2015 4:36 am

Quoting cschleic (Reply 30):
Were they at a disadvantage because they aren't a Hawaiian based company? But maybe that's not a disadvantage for others.

Has nothing to do with where the company is based. None of the large travel wholesalers/online travel agencies are based in Hawaii and they get access to discounted rates.

Quoting rbavfan (Reply 35):
G4 wants rock bottom hotel prices for their packages. The markets good enough in Hawaii to say no. So they wed left with mostly 3rd tier hotels.

They may have wanted a much lower rate for their packages, but Allegiant does sell packages with stays at the major Waikiki hotels including the Hilton Hawaiian Village, Waikiki Beach Marriott, and Hyatt Regency Waikiki. They even have packages with the Royal Hawaiian Hotel and Moana Surfrider.
 
wjcandee
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RE: Allegiant Air To Retire 757/end HNL

Thu Nov 19, 2015 6:59 am

Quoting F9Animal (Reply 37):
I was also hopeful to see G4 expand the 757 fleet. Sorry, but I still love the 757.

I'm with ya Bra.

Quoting F9Animal (Reply 37):
When ATA and Aloha closed, G4 likely thought there was plenty of potential. I miss Aloha and ATA now.

I had a lot of affection for ATA. Then first Tague (spend like drunk sailor) and second the Hedgies (retrench retrench and then try to corner the market on AMC work) put George's airline out of business.
 
bjorn14
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RE: Allegiant Air To Retire 757/end HNL

Thu Nov 19, 2015 12:08 pm

Quoting neutronstar73 (Reply 33):

The joke in Hawai'i is that LAS is the 9th island.
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