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KarelXWB
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Flexjet Orders 20 Aerion AS2 Supersonic Jets

Wed Nov 18, 2015 12:19 pm

A big boost for this new supersonic program.

Quote:
Flexjet has placed a firm order valued at $2.4 billion for 20 Aerion AS2 supersonic jets, with delivery to begin in 2023. First flight is expected in 2021.

Flexjet CEO Kenn Ricci said the company will use the supersonic jet for overseas flights and also in China, which does not have restrictions on sonic booms.

Source
http://aviationweek.com/business-avi...r-20-supersonic-jets-boosts-aerion
http://www.flugrevue.de/zivilluftfah...eberschalljet-bestellung-an/656056

http://oi68.tinypic.com/2nb94dx.jpg
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WIederling
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Flexjet Orders 20 Aerion AS2 Supersonic Jets

Wed Nov 18, 2015 12:33 pm

Is FlexJet still a Bombardier Subsidy?
Murphy is an optimist
 
ap305
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RE: Flexjet Orders 20 Aerion AS2 Supersonic Jets

Wed Nov 18, 2015 12:47 pm

The coolest looking bird if she becomes reality. Aerion's aerodynamic expertise was apparently enough to get Airbus on board in return for access.
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VS4ever
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RE: Flexjet Orders 20 Aerion AS2 Supersonic Jets

Wed Nov 18, 2015 1:12 pm

cue all the posts about

What if UA/DL/AA/WN/BA/LH/AF/KL/AZ/EK/EY/QR/CZ/CA/CI/QF/NZ/HU/JL/AC/TP/IB/OZ/SK/DY? (I am sure i missed a few) were to buy these as their new F class birds.... following on with photoshop livery pics...

All i will say, is i hope this comes to fruition, with the demise of F in scheduled trips in many places, maybe this is the stepping stone between J and Private Jet. 6 years until first flight...

As for aesthetics, yes, they look cool, but they are no Concorde... oh and nice to see something new with more than 2 engines!!!!
That feeling when you sit at the end of a runway, brakes are released and the raw power takes over. Now that is a thing of beauty and it never gets old.
 
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Polot
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RE: Flexjet Orders 20 Aerion AS2 Supersonic Jets

Wed Nov 18, 2015 1:35 pm

Quoting WIederling (Reply 1):
Is FlexJet still a Bombardier Subsidy?

No, they sold it off 2 years ago.
 
Rbgso
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RE: Flexjet Orders 20 Aerion AS2 Supersonic Jets

Wed Nov 18, 2015 1:53 pm

Maybe it's the angle of the picture, but that thing looks like it would be very nose-heavy.
 
Amiga500
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RE: Flexjet Orders 20 Aerion AS2 Supersonic Jets

Wed Nov 18, 2015 2:05 pm

Quoting Rbgso (Reply 5):
Maybe it's the angle of the picture, but that thing looks like it would be very nose-heavy.

Its just a picture some artist has thrown together.

Obedience to the laws of physics are strictly optional!  
 
WIederling
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RE: Flexjet Orders 20 Aerion AS2 Supersonic Jets

Wed Nov 18, 2015 2:47 pm

Quoting Amiga500 (Reply 6):
Obedience to the laws of physics are strictly optional!

A less distorted view from above:
http://images.flugrevue.de/sixcms/me...bnails/Aerion-AS-2.jpg.7351896.jpg

Doesn't look so overnosed any more but three engines need some balancing, right?
The actual tailsurfaces are further back.
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BlueShamu330s
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RE: Flexjet Orders 20 Aerion AS2 Supersonic Jets

Wed Nov 18, 2015 2:49 pm

Quoting Rbgso (Reply 5):

Maybe it's the angle of the picture, but that thing looks like it would be very nose-heavy.

Does this help matters..?




Flying around India
 
Rbgso
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RE: Flexjet Orders 20 Aerion AS2 Supersonic Jets

Wed Nov 18, 2015 2:58 pm

Ah, yes, thanks. That looks better. That's one unique airframe.
 
stburke
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RE: Flexjet Orders 20 Aerion AS2 Supersonic Jets

Wed Nov 18, 2015 3:12 pm

Quoting Rbgso (Reply 9):
Ah, yes, thanks. That looks better. That's one unique airframe.

This will be one expensive, fuel-guzzling bird. Awesome.
 
RIX
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RE: Flexjet Orders 20 Aerion AS2 Supersonic Jets

Wed Nov 18, 2015 5:49 pm

Quoting vs4ever (Reply 3):
What if ... to buy these as their new F class birds...

Actually, it was R class  . May very well happen, as to fill a dozen seats on regular basis would be much easier than 100. Of course, if ticket price stays comparable... Would be nice to see BA001/002 supersonic again.
 
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LAX772LR
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RE: Flexjet Orders 20 Aerion AS2 Supersonic Jets

Wed Nov 18, 2015 5:58 pm

Quoting ap305 (Reply 2):
Aerion's aerodynamic expertise was apparently enough to get Airbus on board in return for access.

Was it though? Granted, it's been a few months since I've looked, but I could not find the slightest thing from Airbus (or really any source other than Aerion themselves) that Airbus was really doing much of anything.




Quoting RIX (Reply 11):
Would be nice to see BA001/002 supersonic again.

               ^This!
A thousand times THIS!
...the crap they have on it now is an embarrassment to an incomparable legacy.  
I myself, suspect a more prosaic motive... ~Thranduil
 
time2lyme
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RE: Flexjet Orders 20 Aerion AS2 Supersonic Jets

Wed Nov 18, 2015 6:20 pm

Look familiar?...

 
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scbriml
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RE: Flexjet Orders 20 Aerion AS2 Supersonic Jets

Wed Nov 18, 2015 6:27 pm

Quoting time2lyme (Reply 13):
Look familiar?...

Hopefully, it will crash a lot less frequently than an F-104.   

Looks cool, but I'm going to file it in the 'believe it when I see it' folder.
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masseybrown
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RE: Flexjet Orders 20 Aerion AS2 Supersonic Jets

Wed Nov 18, 2015 7:14 pm

Quoting WIederling (Reply 1):
Is FlexJet still a Bombardier Subsidy?

No, it's part of Kenn Ricci's privately-owned group of aviation-related companies, Directional Aviation, based in Cleveland.
 
bhill
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RE: Flexjet Orders 20 Aerion AS2 Supersonic Jets

Wed Nov 18, 2015 7:19 pm

Where you gonna put the gas??
Carpe Pices
 
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KarelXWB
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RE: Flexjet Orders 20 Aerion AS2 Supersonic Jets

Wed Nov 18, 2015 7:28 pm

Quoting bhill (Reply 16):
Where you gonna put the gas??

That's easy: let the passengers eat some burritos, enough gas guaranteed.
What we leave behind is not as important as how we've lived.
 
OMP777X
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RE: Flexjet Orders 20 Aerion AS2 Supersonic Jets

Wed Nov 18, 2015 7:44 pm

Quoting bhill (Reply 16):
Where you gonna put the gas??
Quoting KarelXWB (Reply 17):
That's easy: let the passengers eat some burritos, enough gas guaranteed.

Anything could be possible by then! I suppose that they could do it if they do enough R & D on the matter.

Honestly though, it seems like all the fuel is going to have to be stored in back behind the cabin.

Does anyone know what the proposed dimensions of this are? I'm a little confused by the part of the article where they say some airports won't allow it due to its length.

Best,

OMP777X
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bellancacf
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RE: Flexjet Orders 20 Aerion AS2 Supersonic Jets

Wed Nov 18, 2015 7:49 pm

It reminds me of the X-3, even more than of the F-104.
 
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LAX772LR
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RE: Flexjet Orders 20 Aerion AS2 Supersonic Jets

Wed Nov 18, 2015 8:00 pm

Quoting bhill (Reply 16):
Where you gonna put the gas??

The aircraft looks small, but it's really not.

From the last public specs I've seen, it's going to have an MTOW of 90K lbs and be capable of carrying 45,400lbs fuel.
By comparison, Concorde's MTOW was around 408,000lbs and carried approx 211,000lbs.

I'm sure there's a much more scientifically accurate comparison, but basically both have an approx 2:1 ratio of weight to fuel... and keep in mind that we're comparing a 1960s design to a 2020s one, even if Aerion goes with their older engine option.
I myself, suspect a more prosaic motive... ~Thranduil
 
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RE: Flexjet Orders 20 Aerion AS2 Supersonic Jets

Wed Nov 18, 2015 8:04 pm

The image in the opening post is of a different plane than replies 7 and 8. Which one is it?
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KELPkid
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RE: Flexjet Orders 20 Aerion AS2 Supersonic Jets

Wed Nov 18, 2015 8:44 pm

Quoting bhill (Reply 16):






Where you gonna put the gas??

Well, JET-A looks like it could be stored aft of the pressure vessel, which looks to end well before the wing...supersonic wings are usually pretty thin  
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william
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RE: Flexjet Orders 20 Aerion AS2 Supersonic Jets

Wed Nov 18, 2015 8:48 pm

Since post on this was deleted, I will repost this. Per news outlets Airbus and Aerion have green lighted this project. Its no longer vaporware.
 
Rbgso
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RE: Flexjet Orders 20 Aerion AS2 Supersonic Jets

Wed Nov 18, 2015 8:51 pm

The plane looks like someone grabbed a 727 by the nose and tail and stretched it 100%.
 
bomber996
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RE: Flexjet Orders 20 Aerion AS2 Supersonic Jets

Wed Nov 18, 2015 9:16 pm

Quoting OMP777X (Reply 18):
Does anyone know what the proposed dimensions of this are? I'm a little confused by the part of the article where they say some airports won't allow it due to its length.

Length: 170'
Wingspan: 61'
Height: 22'

http://www.aerionsupersonic.com/technical-specifications/

Peace   
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ssteve
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RE: Flexjet Orders 20 Aerion AS2 Supersonic Jets

Wed Nov 18, 2015 9:21 pm

With a range projected to be just 13nm longer than the great circle distance LAX-NRT, aren't they missing a crucial transpacific market here?
 
motif1
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RE: Flexjet Orders 20 Aerion AS2 Supersonic Jets

Wed Nov 18, 2015 9:30 pm

Quoting bomber996 (Reply 25):
http://www.aerionsupersonic.com/technical-specifications/

No mention of altitude or ceiling...
How high would it typically operate?

M1
Not only is this incomprehensible but the ink is ugly and the paper is from the wrong kind of tree
 
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RE: Flexjet Orders 20 Aerion AS2 Supersonic Jets

Wed Nov 18, 2015 9:47 pm

Quoting bomber996 (Reply 25):
Length: 170'
Wingspan: 61'
Height: 22'

That's a pretty damned big bizjet...it will have operational difficulties at many smaller fields just due to the fuselage length  
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KELPkid
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RE: Flexjet Orders 20 Aerion AS2 Supersonic Jets

Wed Nov 18, 2015 9:50 pm

Quoting BlueShamu330s (Reply 8):
Does this help matters..?

Dang, you can't see over that nose! And since the nose gear is way up there, you can't have a Concorde-style drooping nose....
Celebrating the birth of KELPkidJR on August 5, 2009 :-)
 
Ruscoe
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RE: Flexjet Orders 20 Aerion AS2 Supersonic Jets

Wed Nov 18, 2015 10:13 pm

What speed in knots is M1.2?

Will the savings in time be enough to compensate for the costs and restrictions of operating this type?

Ruscoe
 
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AA777223
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RE: Flexjet Orders 20 Aerion AS2 Supersonic Jets

Wed Nov 18, 2015 10:34 pm

Quoting Ruscoe (Reply 30):
Will the savings in time be enough to compensate for the costs and restrictions of operating this type?

Totally agreed. Many biz jets these days can travel in the M .9+ range. With this thing only operating ~33% faster, will the prestige of travelling at supersonic speed be enough to overcome the exorbitant acquisition and ongoging costs?

For $120MM, you can buy a few G600 (all max out at .925) series or a 500 (550 maxes out at .885 - what a drag, HA!), travel at M .925 a lot futher with a lot more people and things, and still be able to pay for your caviar and champagne. You'll even have a crew rest area, since ya know, you'll be able to fly far enough to need one.

[Edited 2015-11-18 14:37:11]
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RE: Flexjet Orders 20 Aerion AS2 Supersonic Jets

Wed Nov 18, 2015 10:43 pm

Quoting scbriml (Reply 14):
Hopefully, it will crash a lot less frequently than an F-104.   

The widow maker strikes again?

Quoting KarelXWB (Reply 17):
That's easy: let the passengers eat some burritos, enough gas guaranteed.

LOL, Its a big aircraft, I think they should go for a 30 to 40 pax aircraft and use the latest tech on engines ... maybe a Avanti piaggio look alike with supersonic wing and a mach 1.4 to 1.6 speed... to keep fuel and material costs down.

TRB
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KELPkid
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RE: Flexjet Orders 20 Aerion AS2 Supersonic Jets

Wed Nov 18, 2015 10:47 pm

Quoting Ruscoe (Reply 30):
What speed in knots is M1.2?

Depends on the altitude and temperature...  

So are they sticking with the original plans for a JT8D derived engine?
Celebrating the birth of KELPkidJR on August 5, 2009 :-)
 
WIederling
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RE: Flexjet Orders 20 Aerion AS2 Supersonic Jets

Wed Nov 18, 2015 10:47 pm

Quoting speedygonzales (Reply 21):
The image in the opening post is of a different plane than replies 7 and 8. Which one is it?

I see two different frames one with three sleek engines and one with 2 funelfront engines:
http://www.flugrevue.de/zivilluftfah...sonic-business-jet/521550?skip=1#1
go through the 7 items.
Murphy is an optimist
 
UA735WL
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RE: Flexjet Orders 20 Aerion AS2 Supersonic Jets

Wed Nov 18, 2015 10:49 pm

Wow... that is one *fugly* airplane. Reminds me of a carrot with wings. Best of luck to Aerion though...if this idea turns out to be viable they'll have a big lead over everyone else who might be looking to compete. Doubt it'll happen though...the same things that made Concorde uneconomical are working against this project too.


Jonas
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JAAlbert
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RE: Flexjet Orders 20 Aerion AS2 Supersonic Jets

Wed Nov 18, 2015 11:05 pm

Jeez, that's a sleek airplane, but I wonder whether the cost is worth the reduction in travel time.
The plane reduces travel time from LAX-SYD to 10 hrs down from 15.5hrs. I'm surprised, I would have expected a greater reduction.

Here is a website detailing the specifics - including the cabin! - of this supersonic transport:

http://www.techinsider.io/aerion-as2-supersonic-business-jet-2015-11

It seems like the cabin is rather short - only 8 - 12 passengers on this jet, with a good portion of the fuselage from the wings aft, is not used for cabin space. Perhaps lavatory and luggage. Huge cabin windows which seems odd for a supersonic craft - I assume this would fly as high as the concorde, and the fuselage is mainly carbon fiber. How does carbon fiber handle the heat generated by supersonic speeds?
 
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LAX772LR
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RE: Flexjet Orders 20 Aerion AS2 Supersonic Jets

Thu Nov 19, 2015 1:48 am

Quoting SSTeve (Reply 26):
With a range projected to be just 13nm longer than the great circle distance LAX-NRT, aren't they missing a crucial transpacific market here?

No doubt being conservative. I'm sure if they're that close, they'll figure out a way to get the extra needed for winds/diversions in order to make it viable.

Quoting KELPkid (Reply 28):
it will have operational difficulties at many smaller fields just due to the fuselage length

They've never really been coy about that.
Recommended runway for transoceanic flight is 9000ft-- that rules out a ton of regional fields right there.

Quoting Ruscoe (Reply 30):
What speed in knots is M1.2?

Assuming sea level/1atmosphere, it's just under 800kt
I myself, suspect a more prosaic motive... ~Thranduil
 
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LAX772LR
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RE: Flexjet Orders 20 Aerion AS2 Supersonic Jets

Thu Nov 19, 2015 1:50 am

Quoting TheRedBaron (Reply 32):
I think they should go for a 30 to 40 pax aircraft and use the latest tech on engines

They were actually looking for the oldest tech, not long ago. JT8D, or a derivative thereof.

Not sure that's still the case though.
I myself, suspect a more prosaic motive... ~Thranduil
 
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ER757
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RE: Flexjet Orders 20 Aerion AS2 Supersonic Jets

Thu Nov 19, 2015 1:54 am

Quoting Ruscoe (Reply 30):
Will the savings in time be enough to compensate for the costs and restrictions of operating this type?

I'd think M 1.5 would be the minimum it would take to make it worth the $$ over current biz jets that do better than M .9 but we shall see. The company buying 20 of 'em hints it's good enough, they might just know better than I what the market is  
 
KELPkid
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RE: Flexjet Orders 20 Aerion AS2 Supersonic Jets

Thu Nov 19, 2015 2:31 am

Quoting LAX772LR (Reply 38):
They were actually looking for the oldest tech, not long ago. JT8D, or a derivative thereof.

Not sure that's still the case though.

You can't use a high bypass engine to go supersonic. They are engineered to be quiet, and achieve a great deal of this quietness by keeping the bypass flow subsonic. To go supersonic requires a supersonic flow out the back of the engine, which is why Concorde was obnoxiously loud on takeoff. The JT8D is a fairly low bypass engine, and is much easier to obtain a supersonic flow from...IIRC, the SAAB Viggen is powered by a JT8D derivative. The later variants of the JT8D (the 217 series, as used on the MD-80) is a actually a fairly modern engine  
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lapa_saab340
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RE: Flexjet Orders 20 Aerion AS2 Supersonic Jets

Thu Nov 19, 2015 2:37 am

Quoting LAX772LR (Reply 37):
Assuming sea level/1atmosphere, it's just under 800kt

The speed of sound is approximately 660kts at standard sea level conditions. The main driver affecting speed of sound in air is temperature.

You can calculate the local speed of sound for a given condition with the following formula:

c=sqrt(γRT)

where c = speed of sound
γ = specific heat ratio (assume 1.4 for air)
R = universal gas constant (287 J/kg K)
T = local absolute air temperature (in Kelvin) Standard sea level temp is 15ºC or 288.15K

Using the above units will yield the local speed of sound c in m/s (multiply by 1.94 to convert to knots)

You'd need to know the air temperature, but for M=1.2 at altitude you're probably looking at something in the order of 570kts.

[Edited 2015-11-18 18:41:18]

[Edited 2015-11-18 18:41:47]
 
26point2
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RE: Flexjet Orders 20 Aerion AS2 Supersonic Jets

Thu Nov 19, 2015 3:39 am

Will never fly but FlexJet seems to have convinced some at the NBAA convention it will. A total boondoggle to be sure.

Didn't Airbus recently bail from this project?
 
blueflyer
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RE: Flexjet Orders 20 Aerion AS2 Supersonic Jets

Thu Nov 19, 2015 5:18 am

Quoting KELPkid (Reply 28):
it will have operational difficulties at many smaller fields just due to the fuselage length  

They're not targeting the smaller fields. FlexJet is going for the corporate and well-heeled London - New York market. Like their G650 fleet, FlexJet plans to operate the aircraft on a charter basis only, no fractional ownership option (yet), which gives them a measure of control on where their planes go.
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ap305
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RE: Flexjet Orders 20 Aerion AS2 Supersonic Jets

Thu Nov 19, 2015 5:53 am

Quoting 26point2 (Reply 42):
Will never fly but FlexJet seems to have convinced some at the NBAA convention it will. A total boondoggle to be sure.

Didn't Airbus recently bail from this project?

Far from it.... The companies are looking for a manufacturing site and Airbus has said it will supply the components for final assembly...

http://www.bloomberg.com/news/articl...advances-with-factory-plans-airbus

There have been many vaporware in the ssbj sector but this project will likely succeed at least technically.
Racing, competing, is in my blood. It's part of me, it's part of my life; I've been doing it all my life. And it stands up before anything else- Ayrton Senna
 
aviationaware
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RE: Flexjet Orders 20 Aerion AS2 Supersonic Jets

Thu Nov 19, 2015 7:05 am

I still don't get why anyone would want to do a Mach 1.2 plane. Terribly inefficient for very little speed gain... if you want to go faster you will have to eliminate the sonic boom. Sure there are some people who are rich enough for such a business jet, but how many are they? I don't see a very good business case for this, the entire concept looks half baked to me.
 
olle
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RE: Flexjet Orders 20 Aerion AS2 Supersonic Jets

Thu Nov 19, 2015 7:16 am

Quoting KELPkid (Reply 40):
, the SAAB Viggen is powered by a JT8D derivative. The later variants of the JT8D (the 217 series, as used on the MD-80) is a actually a fairly modern engine

I know people who worked with this while it still was produced by Volvo Flygmotor in the small town Trollhättan.

When the upgraded Viggen the JA version was created they rebuild this engine pretty much for higher thrust. Will this be reused?

By the way I grew up close to one of the biggest Swedish bases for Viggen and I can still remember the sound of the Viggen in my dreams  

The Gripen is nothing like it  
 
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Francoflier
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RE: Flexjet Orders 20 Aerion AS2 Supersonic Jets

Thu Nov 19, 2015 8:05 am

Quoting LAX772LR (Reply 38):
They were actually looking for the oldest tech, not long ago. JT8D, or a derivative thereof.

Not sure that's still the case though.

They dropped the JT8 when they changed the design from a 2-engined to a 3-engined one.

That was driven by noise requirements I believe: 3 smaller, quieter engines...
They are in the process of choosing a new engine, which will likely be an existing design, probably a business jet engine, modified for supersonic flight.
I'll do my own airline. With Blackjack. And hookers. In fact, forget the airline.
 
WIederling
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RE: Flexjet Orders 20 Aerion AS2 Supersonic Jets

Thu Nov 19, 2015 8:58 am

Quoting Rbgso (Reply 24):
The plane looks like someone grabbed a 727 by the nose and tail and stretched it 100%.

Same impression here. Though I assumed they took a Falcon 7X as base for rubber banding into a supersonic sleeker.
Murphy is an optimist
 
SKAirbus
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RE: Flexjet Orders 20 Aerion AS2 Supersonic Jets

Thu Nov 19, 2015 9:14 am

Something that most of us will never get to fly on.... It will be even more exclusive than Concorde. For the super-rich. Us minions will just have to watch from the end of the runway.
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