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BN727227Ultra
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Same Flt#, But Equip. Change...

Wed Nov 18, 2015 8:50 pm

A locked thread mentioned AA61, equip change at DFW. This type of thing was somewhat more prevalent in pre-dereg days (or as I like to call it, 'paper timetable' days).

Does/did it ever fool anybody? What was the rationale behind it in the first place? Just seems like a small deceit.

I've always liked to 'go up and down' as much as possible, and check out strange airports, but back in the milk-run days, I can imagine some people took a dim view of having to go out into the terminal rather than stay aboard the plane.
 
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AC_B777
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RE: Same Flt#, But Equip. Change...

Wed Nov 18, 2015 9:15 pm

I remember this happened a couple of times at AC and if I remember correctly, there was a couple of reasons why they would change equipment but keep the same flight number.
An a/c would depart from my home base (YYT) and was going to either YUL or YYZ and then onto another destination as the same flight number, but that aircraft was scheduled for maintenance at one of these bases, so instead of the plane flying onward and then having to be routed back or ferried to either YUL or YYZ, they would just change aircraft there but keep the same flight number. It was a little more inconvenient for the pax, gate agents and ground crews, but it saved money and kept the a/c on schedule for it's maintenance.
Another reason I've heard of is due to aircraft restrictions, say like ETOPS. At AC we have two ETOPS equipped A319's and they generally fly overwater flights like YYT-LHR or YYZ-BDA. If one of those two aircraft goes tech, then the other one may be needed to fly an ETOPS flight, so the airline might do an aircraft swap with another one but keep the same flight number.
I'm sure there are other reasons, but these are two that I know of.
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SpaceshipDC10
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RE: Same Flt#, But Equip. Change...

Wed Nov 18, 2015 9:22 pm

Quoting BN727227Ultra (Thread starter):
This type of thing was somewhat more prevalent in pre-dereg days (or as I like to call it, 'paper timetable' days).

I remember going through paper timetables of PA, UA, AA and NW at the end '80s and during the '90s and seeing flights from Europe or Asia arriving at one of the airline's hub and continuing to a second city in the USA with a smaller aircraft or a domestic wide-body, just like AA61.
 
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tlecam
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RE: Same Flt#, But Equip. Change...

Wed Nov 18, 2015 9:25 pm

Delta still does this with some of its Asia flights for sure - there are some that are Asia-DTW-BOS all on the same flight number. The DTW-BOS leg is usually a narrow body (319 these days).
BOS-LGA-JFK | A:319/20/21, 332/3, 346 || B:717, 735, 737, 738, 739, 752, 753, 762, 763, 764, 787, 772, 744 || MD80, MD90
 
EIDL
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RE: Same Flt#, But Equip. Change...

Wed Nov 18, 2015 9:29 pm

UA now kick you off the plane to reboard on same number, same aircraft "direct" flights so you get the effect of this without any change of equipment!

PA did many change of gauge 727-widebody European destination -> FRA/LHR -> US flights in the old days.

[Edited 2015-11-18 13:29:47]
 
32andBelow
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RE: Same Flt#, But Equip. Change...

Wed Nov 18, 2015 9:35 pm

It's a ticketing issue. If you have a single flight number all the way through you can sell tickets for any of the possible city combinations on that route.
 
TomFoolery
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RE: Same Flt#, But Equip. Change...

Wed Nov 18, 2015 9:50 pm

I see this on DL 131 MUC-ATL 764, ATL-MEX 738 (1 stop). I think UA had a similar leg from MUC-IAD-DEN, with a change of planes in IAD.

On international flights in the US, it is necessary to clear passport and customs at the point of entry (except where preclearance is available), so you have to get off the plane anyway.

Tom
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KELPkid
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RE: Same Flt#, But Equip. Change...

Wed Nov 18, 2015 9:53 pm

HP used to do this to me lots...I had more than once where I had the same flight # all the way through from ELP to PDX, but they switched planes on me at PHX. Usually involved an equipment swap, too....seems the A319's were too good for ELP and they could only serve ELP with 737-300's  
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UltimateDelta
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RE: Same Flt#, But Equip. Change...

Wed Nov 18, 2015 11:15 pm

Quoting tlecam (Reply 3):
Delta still does this with some of its Asia flights for sure

Several European routes I've seen recently, as well:

DAL12- SLC-MSP-LHR (A320-->764)
DAL14- RSW-ATL-FRA (MD-88-->A333)
DAL86- MSP-DTW-FRA (A320-->764)
DAL89- LAS-SLC-CDG (738-->763)
DAL142- ANC-SEA-AMS (738-->A333)
Midwest Airlines- 1984-2010
 
Viscount724
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RE: Same Flt#, But Equip. Change...

Thu Nov 19, 2015 12:39 am

Quoting BN727227Ultra (Thread starter):
Does/did it ever fool anybody? What was the rationale behind it in the first place?

It has higher display priority in reservations systems and is much more likely to be booked than a connecting involving different flight numbers that probably won't appear on the first screen. It used to be much more common than it is now.

Another current DL example is DL131 MUC-ATL-MEX, A333 MUC-ATL and 737-700 ATL-MEX.
 
CitrusCritter
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RE: Same Flt#, But Equip. Change...

Thu Nov 19, 2015 12:39 am

Quoting tlecam (Reply 3):
Delta still does this with some of its Asia flights for sure - there are some that are Asia-DTW-BOS all on the same flight number. The DTW-BOS leg is usually a narrow body (319 these days).

Yes, I saw this recently on flights I took through Seattle to Asia. I forget if it was MSP-SEA-Asia or SLC-SEA-Asia, but there was an equipment change from a narrow-body (753 and 738 respectively) on that flight to a widebody.

[Edited 2015-11-18 16:41:52]
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UALWN
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RE: Same Flt#, But Equip. Change...

Thu Nov 19, 2015 8:47 am

What irks me is that you can still misconnect even with the same flight number That is, DL 131 MUC-ATL is late to ATL and you can easily miss DL 131 ATL-MEX, which won't wait for the MUC-ATL passengers. That I find borderline dishonest.
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washingtonflyer
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RE: Same Flt#, But Equip. Change...

Thu Nov 19, 2015 5:48 pm

Back in the early 1990s, airlines like US could and did place different flight numbers on the same flight.

LGW-PHL-ORD would be one flight number. LGW-PHL-CAK would be a second flight number. LGW-PHL-RDU would be a third flight number.

Even though LGW-PHL was the same flight....
 
Skisandy
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RE: Same Flt#, But Equip. Change...

Thu Nov 19, 2015 5:57 pm

It is pure fraud and deception - it's that simple.

They are selling a trip as a direct (flight with a stop) flight --- when it isn't.

Misleading the customer is illegal with most other businesses, the airlines
seem to be exempt from that.
 
ckfred
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RE: Same Flt#, But Equip. Change...

Thu Nov 19, 2015 6:02 pm

It seems to me that AA used to have flights 46 and 47 as SEA-ORD-LHR and LHR-ORD-SEA. That was back maybe 10 or 15 years ago. The idea was that it would show in the schedule and on reservation systems as a direct flight.

Currently, AA 90 departs DFW for ORD as an MD-80, connecting to AA 90. a 763, departing ORD for LHR. This is because ORD has a daytime flight to LHR, but DFW doesn't. This will show up in searches for a daylight flight on DFW-LHR, after the non-stops are listed.

It's the reverse with AA 91, showing LHR-ORD-DFW, with the change of aircraft at ORD. This will show as the last flight out of LHR for DFW, even though it's not a true direct flight.

I've heard people complain for years about UA. People will book a "direct" domestic flight that stops in a hub, only to find out that they have to change aircraft at the hub. Often, it's to the same aircraft type, such as an A319 to an A319.
 
KELPkid
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RE: Same Flt#, But Equip. Change...

Thu Nov 19, 2015 8:24 pm

Quoting Skisandy (Reply 13):
It is pure fraud and deception - it's that simple.

They are selling a trip as a direct (flight with a stop) flight --- when it isn't.

Misleading the customer is illegal with most other businesses, the airlines
seem to be exempt from that.

In HP's case, my beef with them is that you had ~35 minutes on the ground at PHX. If it was a connecting flight, you usually had at least an hour. You had to use that 35 minutes to book it to the next gate, often in an entirely different wing of the terminal (!).
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Viscount724
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RE: Same Flt#, But Equip. Change...

Thu Nov 26, 2015 2:33 am

Quoting Skisandy (Reply 13):
It is pure fraud and deception - it's that simple.

They are selling a trip as a direct (flight with a stop) flight --- when it isn't.

Misleading the customer is illegal with most other businesses, the airlines
seem to be exempt from that.

If that was the case it would have been outlawed many decades ago when the practice started. The airline industry has always defined a "direct" flight as a flight using the same flight number but not necessarily the same aircraft. I'm not aware that any regulatory authority has ever questioned that definition or that passengers have taken airlines to court over the issue and won.

Pan Am and other U.S. carriers used to have dozens of these change-of-gauge flights to Europe and Asia. It didn't make sense to operate a widebody or even a 707 on shorthaul tag-on sectors within Europe, but the flights had to be operated as 5th freedom services which forced the use of the same flight number as the longhaul international flight. Had they changed the flight number on the tag-on sector, the flight wouldn't have been permitted.
 
Mir
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RE: Same Flt#, But Equip. Change...

Thu Nov 26, 2015 2:41 am

Quoting UALWN (Reply 11):
What irks me is that you can still misconnect even with the same flight number That is, DL 131 MUC-ATL is late to ATL and you can easily miss DL 131 ATL-MEX, which won't wait for the MUC-ATL passengers. That I find borderline dishonest.

No, it's just straight-up dishonest. And should be banned.

Quoting Viscount724 (Reply 16):
Pan Am and other U.S. carriers used to have dozens of these change-of-gauge flights to Europe and Asia. It didn't make sense to operate a widebody or even a 707 on shorthaul tag-on sectors within Europe, but the flights had to be operated as 5th freedom services which forced the use of the same flight number as the longhaul international flight. Had they changed the flight number on the tag-on sector, the flight wouldn't have been permitted.

I can see a carve-out for when one has to use the same flight number for 5th freedom reasons, but there's no reason why SLC-MSP-LHR should be able to use the same flight number when there is literally no difference between that and a connecting flight despite it being marketed differently. It's misleading and deceptive.

-Mir
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nikeherc
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RE: Same Flt#, But Equip. Change...

Thu Nov 26, 2015 3:00 am

Back in the 1970s many people were traveling to GFK for the SAFEGUARD ABM site. NW had direct flights with a single flight number from ORD to GFK with an equipment change in MSP. There was a gauge change from a DC-10 to a 727. This made sense in order to avoid double connections. NW had the decency to use adjoining gates to reduce the chance of missed connections and mishandled baggage.
DC6 to 777 and most things in between
 
Viscount724
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RE: Same Flt#, But Equip. Change...

Thu Nov 26, 2015 3:11 am

Quoting Mir (Reply 17):
Quoting Viscount724 (Reply 16):
Pan Am and other U.S. carriers used to have dozens of these change-of-gauge flights to Europe and Asia. It didn't make sense to operate a widebody or even a 707 on shorthaul tag-on sectors within Europe, but the flights had to be operated as 5th freedom services which forced the use of the same flight number as the longhaul international flight. Had they changed the flight number on the tag-on sector, the flight wouldn't have been permitted.

I can see a carve-out for when one has to use the same flight number for 5th freedom reasons, but there's no reason why SLC-MSP-LHR should be able to use the same flight number when there is literally no difference between that and a connecting flight despite it being marketed differently. It's misleading and deceptive.

I would be fairly certain that when you book that flight SLC-LHR there's something that mentions the aircraft change at MSP. Without that I would agree it's misleading.

Even if it was the same aircraft all the way with a stop at MSP is it really that different from a connection, as you would probably have to deplane at MSP for aircraft cleaning and servicing anyway? And your baggage is checked through in both cases.

Airlines wouldn't do it if it didn't have some revenue benefits which it probably does since that flight will appear near the top of the screen and is much more likely to be booked than if it appeared as an actual connection.
 
Mir
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RE: Same Flt#, But Equip. Change...

Thu Nov 26, 2015 3:54 am

Quoting Viscount724 (Reply 19):
I would be fairly certain that when you book that flight SLC-LHR there's something that mentions the aircraft change at MSP. Without that I would agree it's misleading.

Here's what you see:

http://i.imgur.com/WEykhOj.jpg

The first two choices are the same flight number. However, the one through PHL is actually scheduled to be the same aircraft while the one through MSP is not. You wouldn't know this from looking at the screen. The second option is fundamentally no different from the third because it involves a change of aircraft, yet again you wouldn't know this from looking at the screen, because the second option only shows one flight number while the third option shows two. Based on that, it's not unreasonable to assume that the flight through MSP is the same aircraft (after all, it's presented in exactly the same as the flight through PHL).

Sure, you could click on "details" and find all this out, but you shouldn't have to do that. Those who don't know better likely won't, and may end up buying something they think they aren't. If they'd put "change aircraft in MSP" under the "1 Stop" in the second listing, it would be fine. To be fair, it's more transparent now than it used to be, but still not transparent enough as far as I'm concerned.

Quoting Viscount724 (Reply 19):
Even if it was the same aircraft all the way with a stop at MSP is it really that different from a connection, as you would probably have to deplane at MSP for aircraft cleaning and servicing anyway? And your baggage is checked through in both cases.

Yes, it's very different. You don't necessarily have to deplane during a stop, and even if you did you are guaranteed not to miss your onward flight because it's the same aircraft. If it's a different aircraft, if your SLC-MSP flight is delayed, you may miss your connection despite not technically having a connection.

Quoting Viscount724 (Reply 19):
Airlines wouldn't do it if it didn't have some revenue benefits which it probably does since that flight will appear near the top of the screen and is much more likely to be booked than if it appeared as an actual connection.

Of course there's a benefit to the airlines. Misleading advertising is very rarely aimed at benefiting the consumer.

-Mir
7 billion, one nation, imagination...it's a beautiful day
 
Viscount724
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RE: Same Flt#, But Equip. Change...

Thu Nov 26, 2015 4:16 am

Quoting Mir (Reply 20):
Quoting Viscount724 (Reply 19):
Airlines wouldn't do it if it didn't have some revenue benefits which it probably does since that flight will appear near the top of the screen and is much more likely to be booked than if it appeared as an actual connection.

Of course there's a benefit to the airlines. Misleading advertising is very rarely aimed at benefiting the consumer.

But if it helps make the airlines more profitable they're likely to offer a wider selection of flights and possibly lower fares than would otherwise be the case, with resulting benefits for the consumer.

I don't think change-of-gauge flights using the same flight number are all that common these days. They certainly don't exist in Europe.
 
Mir
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RE: Same Flt#, But Equip. Change...

Thu Nov 26, 2015 4:52 am

Quoting Viscount724 (Reply 21):
But if it helps make the airlines more profitable they're likely to offer a wider selection of flights and possibly lower fares than would otherwise be the case, with resulting benefits for the consumer.

Say you went to a pharmacy and asked for a certain prescription to be filled, and the pharmacy filled it with cheap generic drugs instead of the ones you asked for, yet still charged you the price for the one you asked for. They'd make a lot of profit on that sale, which they could then use to offer lower prices on their other merchandise, which would benefit a lot of their customers. They've still screwed you over, and you'd be well within your rights to seek legal remedy.

You don't get to mislead people through dishonest advertising and claim that it's okay because it benefited other people.

-Mir
7 billion, one nation, imagination...it's a beautiful day
 
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DocLightning
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RE: Same Flt#, But Equip. Change...

Thu Nov 26, 2015 5:42 am

Quoting Mir (Reply 17):
No, it's just straight-up dishonest. And should be banned.

I agree with you on many issues, but not on this.

I have gotten on "NW123" from DEN to DTW and continuing to LHR" when NW123 was an A320. I wasn't going to LHR. Even if I were, they are different flights that happen to have the same flight number.

I don't understand why airlines do it because it doesn't strike me that it misleads most customers. Even most booking engines will show it as something like:

DL123 SFO->DTW B738
DL123 DTW->CDG A333

So it doesn't even look like a single flight.

While I don't understand why airlines do this, it doesn't seem as if duping customers is their goal, nor is it the typical effect.
-Doc Lightning-

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Mir
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RE: Same Flt#, But Equip. Change...

Thu Nov 26, 2015 8:48 am

Quoting DocLightning (Reply 23):
I have gotten on "NW123" from DEN to DTW and continuing to LHR" when NW123 was an A320. I wasn't going to LHR.

If you're not on both legs of the flight then it doesn't matter, but I'm talking about people who are booked on both legs.

Quoting DocLightning (Reply 23):
I don't understand why airlines do it because it doesn't strike me that it misleads most customers. Even most booking engines will show it as something like:

DL123 SFO->DTW B738
DL123 DTW->CDG A333

So it doesn't even look like a single flight.

Kayak shows it this way:

http://i.imgur.com/4vbmRWG.png

As you can see, it is marketed as the same plane (even screwing up the aircraft type on the second leg) when it is not.

Quoting DocLightning (Reply 23):
While I don't understand why airlines do this, it doesn't seem as if duping customers is their goal, nor is it the typical effect.

Duping search engines is the goal - they will list these flights first in a standard search order (assuming other things being equal) because the priority is non-stops, direct flights, and then connections. The problem is that customers are then misled by the search engines.

-Mir
7 billion, one nation, imagination...it's a beautiful day
 
phelpsie87
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RE: Same Flt#, But Equip. Change...

Thu Nov 26, 2015 12:55 pm

Quoting Skisandy (Reply 13):
It is pure fraud and deception - it's that simple.

They are selling a trip as a direct (flight with a stop) flight --- when it isn't.

Misleading the customer is illegal with most other businesses, the airlines
seem to be exempt from that.
Quoting Mir (Reply 22):
You don't get to mislead people through dishonest advertising and claim that it's okay because it benefited other people



Really quick...are you aware of the difference between a "direct" flight and a "nonstop" flight? I would imagine you are since you defined it in your statement, but I'm concerned that you think direct and nonstop are interchangeable.

It's hard to claim dishonesty or ("pure") fraud and deception when the airline clearly advises you that the trip has a layover/transit point.

DOT regulatory requirements state that airlines must disclose change of gauge (composite flights) to passengers before booking. Just like in your examples Mir...the screen clearly shows that you'd stop in MSP/PHL for X-amount of time.

Quoting Mir (Reply 20):
Yes, it's very different. You don't necessarily have to deplane during a stop, and even if you did you are guaranteed not to miss your onward flight because it's the same aircraft. If it's a different aircraft, if your SLC-MSP flight is delayed, you may miss your connection despite not technically having a connection.

I get what your trying to say Mir, but it really isn't that different. Even if you stay on the plane, you technically still have a connection. Also, I wouldn't say that you'd be "guaranteed not to miss your onward flight" if you were on a delayed flight with no planned change in equipment at the transit point. Likely, the airline would attempt to cover the delayed aircraft with a swap at the downline station.

I realize that a few examples exist out there (w/no equipment changes), where passengers could stay onboard the aircraft at the transit point (MSP-GFK-DVL-MSP, ATL-LAX-HNL, MSP-HIB-INL, MSP-RHI-DTW), but the one's I can think of either no longer operate or have a longer layover than I'd like sitting onboard.

Quoting DocLightning (Reply 23):
I agree with you on many issues, but not on this.

        

Quoting DocLightning (Reply 23):
I don't understand why airlines do it because it doesn't strike me that it misleads most customers.

Fare components, fare structuring, pricing, marketing, routing. But in my opinion, one of the biggest reasons: Not enough damn flight numbers! When an airline has 5,000+ flights per day...you can run out of numbers pretty quick. Keep in mind that certain number blocks are reserved for certain kinds of flying (1-2999 for Mainline. 3000-6500 for Regional's, 6501-8500 for Codeshares, 8501-9500 for Charters, 9501-9999 for Mx, tests, skd building, etc).


I guess I don't see the big deal here. If the airlines weren't advising, that would be one thing. But to claim they are lying to your face and surprising you with an unknown layover at MSP in the dead of winter...come on.

I love how folks seem to think (and would prefer) that they would be allowed to sit onboard an aircraft, with all of their belongings, as it prepares for an INTL flight. I guess you aren't considering the change in flight crew (which means no pax allowed onboard), an international security check (which again means no pax allowed), or the fact that the layover is going to be more than just a few minutes.

I also love how no one is complaining about WN or F9 selling "direct" flights are their website...oh wait, it has the same flight number (sometimes), so its totally fine!
 
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knope2001
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RE: Same Flt#, But Equip. Change...

Thu Nov 26, 2015 1:35 pm

Although I think it's somewhat shady to knowingly publish a thru flight which requires an aircraft change....

1. True "thru" flights are fairly often subject to aircraft swaps at a hub city for operational reasons.

2. It's not uncommon for passengers to have to deplane and reboard the same aircraft on thru flights, though this varies somewhat by airline. However it is especially true on US-to-international thru flights, and 100% true on an international-to-US flight due to customs. The "convenience" of a thru flight is lost.

3. True "thru" flights are broken if so decided operationally,meaning you essentially miss your connection even though you booked what was to be a thru flight. You may have booked flight 1000 BUR-PHX-STL but if BUR-PHX is running late enough the airline might well swap in a different aircraft to run PHX-STL as 1000P ontime even before you leave Burbank. It depends significantly on how many BUR-STL passengers there are and what protection there is to rebook thru passengers. The same sort of decision goes into preserving or breaking a change-of-gauge thru flight.

4. Selling a change-of-gauge thru flight helps with complex itineraries. If Des Moines-Chicago-London is sold as a thru flight then you can sell Des Moines-Stockholm via London as one connection instead of two. If you're actually flying to a smaller Swedish city on a small prop flight from Stockholm you're buying a two-connection flight instead of a three-connection one. Some platforms can't even offer you a three-connection itinerary, and in any case the fewer-connection trips are more likely to display more prominently.


Thru flights seem to be fewer and fewer, both US domestic and international. I think that's because they add constraints operationally without the level of advantage they once held. Southwest is a holdout (in part based on the nature of their system) but broken thru flights do happen.

[Edited 2015-11-26 05:38:45]
 
YYZFAN
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RE: Same Flt#, But Equip. Change...

Thu Nov 26, 2015 2:02 pm

Quoting Mir (Reply 20):
Sure, you could click on "details" and find all this out, but you shouldn't have to do that.

This is where I lose you. You should click on details if you want more information. The airline, as per your screenshot, is fairly presenting your options. "1 stop". The average traveller will think of this as a connection anyway, so it is coming down to semantics. Delta fairly presented the option there, and it isn't misleading. Do you also think people shouldn't have to read the contract of carriage? O course you should....most don't, but you should.

I can sense your passion for consumer rights, and I am with you. But this is not a consumer rights issue. They number it the same for many reasons listed above. If you asked a passenger during the connection if they were misled on what they booked, I'd be shocked if you found a "yes".

Quoting Mir (Reply 22):
Say you went to a pharmacy and asked for a certain prescription to be filled, and the pharmacy filled it with cheap generic drugs instead of the ones you asked for, yet still charged you the price for the one you asked for. They'd make a lot of profit on that sale, which they could then use to offer lower prices on their other merchandise, which would benefit a lot of their customers.

How are these two scenarios related at all? They sell it with a stop, and make it clear. No one that can use the internet is looking at that and thinking it is a single flight.
 
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knope2001
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RE: Same Flt#, But Equip. Change...

Thu Nov 26, 2015 4:48 pm

Quoting phelpsie87 (Reply 25):
But in my opinion, one of the biggest reasons: Not enough damn flight numbers! When an airline has 5,000 flights per day...you can run out of numbers pretty quick.

Very true. To be sure I don't use that as an excuse for something like SLC-MSP-LHR change-of-gauge...things like that are deliberate. But the shortage of flight numbers leads to some interesting situations:

Some airlines *avoid* thru flights by re-using flight numbers for out-and-back flights. Delta does this a lot, and in previous years they'd have scheduled something like this:

#605 ATL-GSO
#122 GSO-ATL-MSY
#712 MSY-ATL-RIC
#895 RIC-ATL-MCI

Now they'll do this instead
#605 ATL-GSO-ATL
#122 ATL-MSY-ATL
#712 ATL-RIC-ATL
#895 ATL-MCI

By doing this they have full flexibility in swapping around aircraft without breaking a thru flight. And they still conserve flight numbers, not a small issue with the size of airlines, code sharing and partnerships.

The other approach done you'll see in some cases with regionals. There are 1-stop thru flights in markets like Paducah-Muskegon and Midland-St George. There's about zero traffic in those markets, you'd need to deplane and probably board another aircraft to continue on, and (in some cases) your "stop" might be a few hours. But the airline schedules it as such to conserve flight numbers, yet it shows up as a "thru" flight in various places.
 
UALWN
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RE: Same Flt#, But Equip. Change...

Thu Nov 26, 2015 5:02 pm

I am firmly with Mir on this. If an average passenger buys a ticket on DL131 MUC-MEX with a stop somewhere, she should have the right to expect that it's a single-plane, direct itinerary, and that, even if she might have to leave the plane in the intermediate stop (ATL in this case), there is no chance in hell that she will miss DL131 ATL-MEX, since she will be aboard the same flight DL131 from MUC to ATL. The reality, however, is that those two DL131 flights are totally unrelated, that she has to connect in ATL (go through immigration, collect baggage, change terminal and what not), and that she can easily misconnect on what on paper looks like a single-plane, direct itinerary, while it is nothing more than a standard connecting itinerary with two independent legs. I find this deceptive.
AT7/111/146/Avro/CRJ/CR9/EMB/ERJ/E75/F50/100/L15/DC9/D10/M8X/717/727/737/747/757/767/777/787/AB6/310/32X/330/340/350/380
 
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FlyCaledonian
Posts: 1984
Joined: Mon Dec 29, 2003 6:18 am

RE: Same Flt#, But Equip. Change...

Thu Nov 26, 2015 10:19 pm

BA used to do it with a lot of flights through the EuroHub at BHX, where BHX-Europe flights had BHX-GLA or BHX-EDI legs attached with the same flight number. I suspect it was a convenient way of advertising direct GLA-Europe or EDI-Europe flights (albeit with a stop in BHX) to compete with AF, LH, SN and KL.

BA also had a couple of oddball flights routed through LGW like this in 1994: -

BA2473 AGP-LGW-CPH
BA2640 OSL-LGW-ATH
BA2641 ATH-LGW-OSL
BA2801 CPH-LGW-AGP
BA2824 SVG-LGW-CDG
BA2837 CDG-LGW-SVG
Let's Go British Caledonian!
 
Viscount724
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RE: Same Flt#, But Equip. Change...

Thu Nov 26, 2015 10:48 pm

Quoting phelpsie87 (Reply 25):
Quoting Mir (Reply 20):
Yes, it's very different. You don't necessarily have to deplane during a stop, and even if you did you are guaranteed not to miss your onward flight because it's the same aircraft. If it's a different aircraft, if your SLC-MSP flight is delayed, you may miss your connection despite not technically having a connection.

I get what your trying to say Mir, but it really isn't that different. Even if you stay on the plane, you technically still have a connection. Also, I wouldn't say that you'd be "guaranteed not to miss your onward flight" if you were on a delayed flight with no planned change in equipment at the transit point. Likely, the airline would attempt to cover the delayed aircraft with a swap at the downline station.

The fact that they're marketing SLC-MSP-LHR with a single flight number obviously means they're targeting SLC passengers. There are thus likely to be more SLC-LHR passengers on the SLC-MSP leg than if it had a different flight number. If SLC-MSP was late I expect they would delay MSP-LHR to wait for them. Otherwise DL would be stuck with a lot of unhappy passengers plus overnight hotel and meal expenses since there would be no later connections the same day.
 
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DocLightning
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RE: Same Flt#, But Equip. Change...

Fri Nov 27, 2015 7:32 am

Quoting Mir (Reply 24):
Duping search engines is the goal

It can't be. They've been doing this since the 1980s at least and probably since before that.
-Doc Lightning-

"The sky calls to us. If we do not destroy ourselves, we will one day venture to the stars."
-Carl Sagan
 
YLWbased
Posts: 905
Joined: Mon Jan 30, 2006 6:09 pm

RE: Same Flt#, But Equip. Change...

Fri Nov 27, 2015 8:38 am

It happens to my recent flight with TG routing HKT-BKK-HKG, the flight number is the same but we need to change planes in BKK.

YLWbased
Hong Kong is not China. Not better or worse, just different.
 
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knope2001
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RE: Same Flt#, But Equip. Change...

Fri Nov 27, 2015 12:47 pm

Quoting DocLightning (Reply 32):
Duping search engines is the goal It can't be. They've been doing this since the 1980s at least and probably since before that.

Before internet search engines there were computer reservations systems, and before that OAG's. (Actually both still exist.) Preferential listing for online (versus interline) connections in CRS led to code sharing. Preferential listing for thru flights over connections led to change-of-gauge thru flights, though far less common than code sharing.
 
timz
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Joined: Fri Sep 17, 1999 7:43 am

RE: Same Flt#, But Equip. Change...

Sat Nov 28, 2015 6:21 pm

Quoting BN727227Ultra (Thread starter):
This type of thing was somewhat more prevalent in pre-dereg days

I'm guessing it was far less prevalent before 1978.

Quoting Viscount724 (Reply 16):
The airline industry has always defined a "direct" flight as a flight using the same flight number but not necessarily the same aircraft.

Until sometime in the 1970s the OAG said specifically: "direct" means no aircraft change.
 
FlyASAGuy2005
Posts: 3965
Joined: Sun Sep 23, 2007 4:55 am

RE: Same Flt#, But Equip. Change...

Sun Nov 29, 2015 2:39 am

Quoting Mir (Reply 20):

Even with true thru flights (see US for example), you are never guaranteed the same a/c. Youll see broken thru flights for many operation reasons on the onward WILL leave without the original inbound.

LUS has tons of these. Most flight numbers displayed as thru flights are true thru flights. It's the same a/c doing all the trips.
What gets measured gets done.
 
Freshside3
Posts: 1591
Joined: Fri Nov 30, 2012 2:11 am

RE: Same Flt#, But Equip. Change...

Sun Nov 29, 2015 3:03 am

Quoting EIDL (Reply 4):
PA did many change of gauge 727-widebody European destination -> FRA/LHR -> US flights in the old days.

PA used to have JAX-ATH.......IIRC, a double C.O.G.............737 JAX-JFK, 747 JFK-FRA, 727 FRA-ATH......

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