Why Does OGG Get Such Big Planes?

717atOGG · Wed Nov 18, 2015 11:11 pm

It has a very short runway, yet it gets the 777 and A330 and its runway is shorter than SXM! Why does it get such big planes?

stratacruiser · Wed Nov 18, 2015 11:21 pm

Quoting 717atOGG (Thread starter):
It has a very short runway, yet it gets the 777 and A330 and its runway is shorter than SXM! Why does it get such big planes?

Because lots of people want to fly there?

PGNCS · Wed Nov 18, 2015 11:22 pm

Quoting 717atOGG (Thread starter):
Why does it get such big planes?

Because it's a popular destination and the airlines make money with those planes there?

nikeson13 · Wed Nov 18, 2015 11:25 pm

Quoting 717atOGG (Thread starter):
It has a very short runway, yet it gets the 777 and A330 and its runway is shorter than SXM! Why does it get such big planes?

For the same reason SXM gets jumbos. Theres the demand for that many people to visit Maui, plus the HI Islands are not that close off the mainland so the extra range is a plus for many operators (ORD-OGG, YEG/YYC-OGG, DFW-OGG are all too far for narrow bodies, and all HA-mainland flights are all wide bodies and occasionally LAX/SFO-OGG on UA). If you're asking how with such a short runway, most wide body flights are not near MTOW, thus a less takeoff distance needed + the runway is at sea level.

TS-IOR · Wed Nov 18, 2015 11:41 pm

Mediums would be weight restricted operating OGG-West Coast, but heavies would operate unrestricted and to points farther in the US and Canada.

IrishAyes · Thu Nov 19, 2015 12:49 am

I vote to keep the thread and recommend the nasty comment be deleted. I think this type of discussion generally segways into englightened discussions on a topic few know about.

Separately, cyber bullying is so petty.

dfwjim1 · Thu Nov 19, 2015 12:57 am

Another reason, I believe, is that the Maui airport serves as a jumping off point to other islands. Rather than flying through HNL
travelers can fly through OGG and then transfer to flights going to other islands.

Airnerd · Thu Nov 19, 2015 12:59 am

Yikes!
Don't like the thread, don't read it, right?

Lots of people going there, also, many originating cities are not all that far away (West Coast US in particular), meaning the short runway doesn't make much difference, because the planes don't need full fuel loads.

Whiteguy · Thu Nov 19, 2015 1:01 am

Quoting TS-IOR (Reply 4):

Mediums would be weight restricted operating OGG-West Coast, but heavies would operate unrestricted and to points farther in the US and Canada.

Many airlines operate B737/757 and even A320 family from the west coast to OGG, while some restrictions do happen I think they're few and far between.

LAX772LR · Thu Nov 19, 2015 1:03 am

Anyone know the longest scheduled westbound and/or eastbound at OGG?

I'm guessing ORD?

TS-IOR · Thu Nov 19, 2015 3:28 am

By mediums i was thinking of B737, namely Alaska and WestJet. A320 is new now with Virgin America right?! B757 is an upper medium i would say :-P

Am glad the discussion continued despite the smart guy above calling mods to delete it because he apparently knows everything about the question!

Yflyer · Thu Nov 19, 2015 4:08 am

Quoting 717atOGG (Thread starter):
It has a very short runway, yet it gets the 777 and A330

You could turn that around and ask why the airport has such a short runway for the traffic it gets. And the answer to that is many locals are opposed to expanding the airport. It's been 10 years since I was there, but I remember seeing a lot of anti airport expansion bumper stickers around the island, with slogans along the lines of "big city airport = big city problems".

Passedv1 · Thu Nov 19, 2015 4:45 am

The runway is short but it's at sea-level, it's not usually crazy hot, there is almost always a headwind credit you can take and the predominate runway takes off right over the ocean so there are no obstacles to contend with in the 3rd & 4th climb segments...also when going west bound you usually have a ripping tail wind blowing you east so your fuel requirements are consistently lower than you might think. 4 hour Enroute times to the west coast are not unheard of.

Pohakuloa · Thu Nov 19, 2015 5:22 am

West bound from OGG longest would be LIH. Eastbound I believe ORD asuming it can do a nonstop but as alluded to earlier, it will often go ORD-OGG-KOA-ORD.

Why so many big planes? basically because people want to fly nonstop from further than the range of the A32X/737/757 range. But shhh! dont tell some members that because to them those long flights to Hawaii further than from the west coast "make absolutely no sense at all."

Regards,
Pohakuloa

DocLightning · Thu Nov 19, 2015 5:36 am

Also, flights to OGG primarily carry leisure travelers. Leisure travelers want to get to Hawaii on Wednesday. They do not care all to much if they get there at 10AM or 3PM. They just want to get there Wednesday. So frequency is less of an issue. Most airlines operate OGG-mainland flights as single daily frequencies. If you can fly two 737s worth of people on a 777, you have just saved yourself two engines and two pilots.

DolphinAir747 · Thu Nov 19, 2015 6:00 am

Quoting DocLightning (Reply 14):
Also, flights to OGG primarily carry leisure travelers. Leisure travelers want to get to Hawaii on Wednesday. They do not care all to much if they get there at 10AM or 3PM. They just want to get there Wednesday.

Isn't this only valid for Thanksgiving? One day a year ?

rbavfan · Thu Nov 19, 2015 12:18 pm

Hawaiian (A330), ANA (788), Japan Airlines (788) could do OGG-HND or OGG-NRT. Japanese leasure travelers would probably fill it up.

There used to be Kona-HND/NRT flights but they were dropped years back as loads were not good. Maui is a much larger market than Kona for tourist.

airbazar · Thu Nov 19, 2015 1:01 pm

Quoting PassedV1 (Reply 12):
also when going west bound you usually have a ripping tail wind blowing you east so your fuel requirements are consistently lower than you might think

I think you meant Eastbound. That's when you have a tail wind. Having said that the tail wind in the tropics is not nearly as strong as the jetstream further north. On a route like HNL-ORD it will cut maybe 30mins of flying time. Compare that with JFK-FRA where the eastbound is 1hr+ shorter than the westbound.

Quoting Pohakuloa (Reply 13):

Why so many big planes? basically because people want to fly nonstop from further than the range of the A32X/737/757 range

Actually it's not. The big planes allow for passenger consolidation at the hubs, rather than offer non-stops. You're though right about the range from destinations further away.

Quoting DocLightning (Reply 14):
So frequency is less of an issue.

Gather as many passengers as you can at a hub and put them all in one big plane. Standard operating procedure. This is especially true as we move further from the West coast, as most cities don't have enough demand to justify a daily flight on their own, even if a smaller plane had the range.

IADCA · Thu Nov 19, 2015 1:40 pm

Quoting TS-IOR (Reply 10):
By mediums i was thinking of B737, namely Alaska and WestJet.

For the purposes of long flights off a runway right around 7000 feet, not all 737NGs are created equal. Someone with a payload-range chart handy can correct me if I'm wrong, but -800s should be able to handle that fine (can't do MTOW on the 174k HGW versions, but shouldn't need it), but -900s would probably be weight-restricted to a lower weight than an 800 would be able to take.

Quoting DocLightning (Reply 14):
Also, flights to OGG primarily carry leisure travelers. Leisure travelers want to get to Hawaii on Wednesday. They do not care all to much if they get there at 10AM or 3PM. They just want to get there Wednesday. So frequency is less of an issue. Most airlines operate OGG-mainland flights as single daily frequencies. If you can fly two 737s worth of people on a 777, you have just saved yourself two engines and two pilots.

And Hawaii tends to be a bit price-sensitive, so the lower CASM of the larger planes makes a difference if you've got the demand to fill them.

717atOGG · Thu Nov 19, 2015 2:25 pm

Quoting Yflyer (Reply 11):

Ok, mods, could you change the thread to why OGG has such a short runway for the traffic it gets? Thanks.

BoeingGuy · Thu Nov 19, 2015 4:49 pm

Quoting LAX772LR (Reply 9):
Anyone know the longest scheduled westbound and/or eastbound at OGG?

I'm guessing ORD?

It might be ORD now, but I believe ATL is the longest non-stop ever from OGG. DL flew ATL-OGG for awhile with a 763. All of their other Hawaii flights at the time were 764s, except ATL-OGG. Presumably the 763 flew it for better takeoff performance.

flyboy80 · Thu Nov 19, 2015 5:19 pm

Has American started their A321 there yet? I imagine that would be a 100 percent max power takeoff typically?

Did any carriers fly the 900er there scheduled?

ckfred · Thu Nov 19, 2015 5:22 pm

Back when AA had DC-10s going to Hawaii, you had 1 DC-10 leaving DFW and another leaving ORD, landing at HNL at about the same time. The plane from DFW would then continue to OGG, with connecting passengers from ORD. Then, the plane would depart OGG for HNL, putting off the passengers connecting for ORD.

I had a book about DL and how it operated the system back in the early 1990s. It used to fly L-1011s between HNL and OGG, with passengers connecting at HNL for the various destinations that DL served from HNL. I seem to recall that because of the short runway, gate agents were vigilant about counting children, because pilots were a bit cautious with weight and balance.

CV880 · Thu Nov 19, 2015 5:28 pm

Quoting BoeingGuy (Reply 20):
It might be ORD now, but I believe ATL is the longest non-stop ever from OGG. DL flew ATL-OGG for awhile with a 763. All of their other Hawaii flights at the time were 764s, except ATL-OGG. Presumably the 763 flew it for better takeoff performance.

That was way back at least 12-15yrs ago when DL used 763ER's on domestic runs.

BoeingGuy · Thu Nov 19, 2015 5:45 pm

Quoting CV880 (Reply 23):
Quoting BoeingGuy (Reply 20):
It might be ORD now, but I believe ATL is the longest non-stop ever from OGG. DL flew ATL-OGG for awhile with a 763. All of their other Hawaii flights at the time were 764s, except ATL-OGG. Presumably the 763 flew it for better takeoff performance.

That was way back at least 12-15yrs ago when DL used 763ER's on domestic runs.

No it wasn't that long ago, nor was it that long ago that DL used 763s on domestic routes. Let me see if I can figure out when it was.

727tiger · Thu Nov 19, 2015 5:52 pm

Quoting ckfred (Reply 22):
Back when AA had DC-10s going to Hawaii, you had 1 DC-10 leaving DFW and another leaving ORD, landing at HNL at about the same time. The plane from DFW would then continue to OGG, with connecting passengers from ORD. Then, the plane would depart OGG for HNL, putting off the passengers connecting for ORD.

On 12/31/90, my family flew AA MCI-DFW-HNL, the DFW-HNL leg on a DC-10. A couple of days later, we flew HNL-OGG on an AA DC-10 -- the shortest leg I ever flew on a DC-10. Loved those birds.

Our return was HA OGG-HNL on an MD-80 then HNL-DFW on a DC-10. The flights between DFW and MCI were on MD-80s.

dfwjim1 · Thu Nov 19, 2015 6:23 pm

[quote=ckfred,reply=22][/qu

Just curious as to why AA would fly a DC-10 to/from OGG/HNL? Would it not have been easier to put the passengers on
Haw

Tomassjc · Thu Nov 19, 2015 8:49 pm

Quoting dfwjim1 (Reply 26):

Just curious as to why AA would fly a DC-10 to/from OGG/HNL?

If I recall the aircraft was routed DFW-OGG-HNL-DFW for awhile. And I remember at one point HNL-OGG-HNL was a tag on of a Mainland-HNL service.

Tomas SJC

Beatyair · Thu Nov 19, 2015 9:07 pm

7000 feet is a bit small. It appears, on Google, that they can add 2,500 feet more with no issues. I am surprised by FAA has not demanded an extension.

c172akula · Thu Nov 19, 2015 9:09 pm

Is AC Rouge still doing YYZ-OGG? That would be longer than the ORD run.

jsnww81 · Thu Nov 19, 2015 9:37 pm

Quoting ckfred (Reply 22):
Back when AA had DC-10s going to Hawaii, you had 1 DC-10 leaving DFW and another leaving ORD, landing at HNL at about the same time. The plane from DFW would then continue to OGG, with connecting passengers from ORD. Then, the plane would depart OGG for HNL, putting off the passengers connecting for ORD.

I think it was the other way around - the ORD plane continued on to OGG. We used to fly from Dallas to Maui every summer on vacation, and I always remember a long layover at HNL while we waited for the OGG-bound plane to come in (it was probably only a few hours, but it felt like forever to a little kid who'd just gotten off an eight-hour flight.)

CV880 · Fri Nov 20, 2015 2:22 am

Quoting BoeingGuy (Reply 24):

Quoting CV880 (Reply 23):
Quoting BoeingGuy (Reply 20):
It might be ORD now, but I believe ATL is the longest non-stop ever from OGG. DL flew ATL-OGG for awhile with a 763. All of their other Hawaii flights at the time were 764s, except ATL-OGG. Presumably the 763 flew it for better takeoff performance.

That was way back at least 12-15yrs ago when DL used 763ER's on domestic runs.

No it wasn't that long ago, nor was it that long ago that DL used 763s on domestic routes. Let me see if I can figure out when it was.

My bad, it ended in Jan 2007 after one year...

Delta: ATL-OGG Suspended (by MAH4546 Dec 31 2006 in Civil Aviation)?threadid=3175163&searchid=3175163&s=delta+maui+atlanta#ID3175163

LAX772LR · Fri Nov 20, 2015 3:12 am

Quoting BoeingGuy (Reply 20):
It might be ORD now, but I believe ATL is the longest non-stop ever from OGG. DL flew ATL-OGG for awhile with a 763.

Quoting CV880 (Reply 23):
That was way back at least 12-15yrs ago when DL used 763ER's on domestic runs.

DL flew ATL-OGG but (IINM) never OGG-ATL, it always returned via DFW and/or California.

They've historically used the Tritanics, the 763ERs, and 764ERs on the route.

Boeing717200 · Fri Nov 20, 2015 3:14 am

6,995' is short? Only if you're trying to fly 8,000 miles.

Whiteguy · Fri Nov 20, 2015 3:45 am

Quoting C172Akula (Reply 29):

Is AC Rouge still doing YYZ-OGG? That would be longer than the ORD run.

Rouge did YYZ-HNL not OGG....

RWA380 · Fri Nov 20, 2015 4:01 am

Quoting dfwjim1 (Reply 26):
Just curious as to why AA would fly a DC-10 to/from OGG/HNL? Would it not have been easier to put the passengers on
Haw

Back in the early 90's when I lived in HNL AA & UA flew DC-10's HNL-OGG-HNL & DL HNL-OGG-HNL on L-1011's.

Quoting Tomassjc (Reply 27):
If I recall the aircraft was routed DFW-OGG-HNL-DFW for awhile. And I remember at one point HNL-OGG-HNL was a tag on of a Mainland-HNL service.

IIRC, the DFW-OGG-HNL-DFW would have been when AA replaced the DC-10's with 767's to Hawaii. The DC-10 was always routed ORD-HNL-OGG-HNL-ORD.

Quoting jsnww81 (Reply 30):
I think it was the other way around - the ORD plane continued on to OGG

It did, my mother in law would come in on it from ORD twice a year & there would be a huge crowd of people waiting from the DFW flight & few local flyers, great for last minute mileage runs.

CV880 · Fri Nov 20, 2015 4:02 am

Quoting LAX772LR (Reply 32):
DL flew ATL-OGG but (IINM) never OGG-ATL, it always returned via DFW and/or California.

The flight went Nonstop OGG-ATL on an old int'l configuration with J class (slightly above 200pax). With just bags and pax, should not have been an issue due to tailwinds. DL's DFW Hub was gone by then.

https://www.airliners.net/aviation-fo...ral_aviation/print.main?id=2318336

[Edited 2015-11-19 20:12:39]

usxguy · Fri Nov 20, 2015 6:35 am

Quoting Beatyair (Reply 28):
7000 feet is a bit small. It appears, on Google, that they can add 2,500 feet more with no issues. I am surprised by FAA has not demanded an extension.

You obviously know NOTHING about Hawaiians and their environmental impact studies

/sarcasm

it will take 30 years to extend the runway. Just like light rail.. i think we're going on year 8 of it in Honolulu, and all we have are some large pieces of bridge near Pearl City...

ha763 · Fri Nov 20, 2015 8:06 am

Quoting Beatyair (Reply 28):

7000 feet is a bit small. It appears, on Google, that they can add 2,500 feet more with no issues. I am surprised by FAA has not demanded an extension.

There is already plans to reconstruct runway 2/20 because of its age (it's over 50 years old). The plans also include around a 1000 ft extension to meet FAA safety standards.

Quoting usxguy (Reply 37):
it will take 30 years to extend the runway. Just like light rail.. i think we're going on year 8 of it in Honolulu, and all we have are some large pieces of bridge near Pearl City...

The State DOT is estimating to start the OGG runway work in 2019 and end in 2021. We are more like in year 30 of rail, but only 3 years into actual construction for the rail project. That's how long it took to finally get a plan approved. BTW, much more than the overpass in Pearl City has been built.

Passedv1 · Fri Nov 20, 2015 9:41 am

Quoting airbazar (Reply 17):
I think you meant Eastbound. That's when you have a tail wind. Having said that the tail wind in the tropics is not nearly as strong as the jetstream further north. On a route like HNL-ORD it will cut maybe 30mins of flying time. Compare that with JFK-FRA where the eastbound is 1hr+ shorter than the westbound.

You're right, I meant eastbound. I'm not sure how you are figuring that there is only a 30 minute difference to Chicago because of the winds since even flights to the west coast usually have a >30 min difference in flight time , but in any case, my point was (if I had gotten the directions right) was that if the short runway was on the other side of the route (10,000 foot runway at OGG and a 7,000 foot runway in ORD) or the prevailing wings blew in the opposite direction, you would not be able to do many of the flights that OGG does have.

Boeing717200 · Fri Nov 20, 2015 1:22 pm

Quoting ha763 (Reply 38):

There is already plans to reconstruct runway 2/20 because of its age (it's over 50 years old). The plans also include around a 1000 ft extension to meet FAA safety standards.

There is no runway extension that would be required for any "safety standard". They may require modifications to the unpaved and cleared 1,000' RSA, but there would be no requirement to extend the runway for safety because no such criteria exists.

BeachBoy · Fri Nov 20, 2015 3:27 pm

Would a 787-8/9 be able to fly nonstop to NRT/HND w/ no payload restrictions from OGG's 7000 ft runway?

c172akula · Fri Nov 20, 2015 4:28 pm

Quoting Whiteguy (Reply 34):
Rouge did YYZ-HNL not OGG....

Whoops my mistake! Thanks.

jsnww81 · Fri Nov 20, 2015 4:44 pm

Quoting usxguy (Reply 37):
You obviously know NOTHING about Hawaiians and their environmental impact studies

/sarcasm

it will take 30 years to extend the runway. Just like light rail.. i think we're going on year 8 of it in Honolulu, and all we have are some large pieces of bridge near Pearl City...

Truth.

The OGG runway extension has been around in various forms for more than 50 years. In the 1970s, my great-grandmother's house in Spreckelsville was condemned and demolished to make way for an eastward extension of runway 5-23 (the secondary runway) that never materialized. It would have become the primary takeoff runway in that scenario.

Focus then shifted to a southward extension of runway 2-20 after that. Around 1990 they cleared the extension area and rerouted the Haleakala Highway to make way for it, and even lopped about a hundred feet off of the smokestack at the Puunene sugar mill to get it out of the approach zone. That's the extension that's still being debated today.

There have even been proposals for a parallel 2-20 runway southeast of the existing strip, on the other side of the control tower and the helicopter pads.

OGG's big victory was the expanded terminal in the early 1990s - and even that took forever to come about; the place was an overcrowded nightmare for most of the 1980s. I'm not convinced we'll see the extended runway in our lifetimes.

airbazar · Fri Nov 20, 2015 4:55 pm

Quoting PassedV1 (Reply 39):
You're right, I meant eastbound. I'm not sure how you are figuring that there is only a 30 minute difference to Chicago

Easy. http://flightaware.com/
Plug in HNL-ORD and ORD-HNL and compare the 2

ha763 · Sat Nov 21, 2015 3:29 am

Quoting Boeing717200 (Reply 40):
There is no runway extension that would be required for any "safety standard". They may require modifications to the unpaved and cleared 1,000' RSA, but there would be no requirement to extend the runway for safety because no such criteria exists.

The exact words from the State DOT presentation was, "Extension to comply with FAA runway safety area standards." See pages 37-39 of the following presentation from the State of Hawaii DOT:

http://www.hawaiitourismauthority.or...s%20Airports_R%20Higashi%20Rev.pdf

The only thing I added was guesstimation of the 1000 ft extension based on the figure on page 39.

Passedv1 · Sat Nov 21, 2015 11:06 am

Quoting airbazar (Reply 44):
Easy. http://flightaware.com/
Plug in HNL-ORD and ORD-HNL and compare the 2

first off...one data point. 2nd, you're assuming similar fuel burn/hour which they are usually not. Generally, east bound flights are planned at a lower Cost Index to take advantage of the tailwinds so require a lighter fuel load then they would have if the ci's were the same on both legs. However, even if we assume that it is just 30 minutes, that is still probably 6,000lbs of fuel for a 767 which is 30 non-revs that get to go if you're in a weight-restricted situation.

N1120A · Sat Nov 21, 2015 12:30 pm

Quoting Whiteguy (Reply 8):
Many airlines operate B737/757 and even A320 family from the west coast to OGG, while some restrictions do happen I think they're few and far between.

757s are a completely different animal.

There have been issues with 739s and A321s.

cathay747 · Sat Nov 21, 2015 1:21 pm

Well, this thread is sure a flip/change from the usual
"why doesn't so-and-so fly a A380 to Hawaii" !!!

A pleasant change with a reasonable enquiry.

717atOGG · Sat Nov 21, 2015 4:02 pm

Quoting BeachBoy (Reply 41):

Most likely in theory, yes. But I thought I heard somewhere ffrom a source that Asia and Australia flights are not allowed in Maui County.

Who is online

Popular Searches On Airliners.net