717atOGG
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How Can SNA Function With Such A Short Runway?

Thu Nov 19, 2015 11:38 pm

It has a 5,700 foot runway yet it gets so much service. Why don't they lengthen the runway or scale back service?
Long live the Boeing 757!
 
JHwk
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RE: How Can SNA Function With Such A Short Runway?

Thu Nov 19, 2015 11:42 pm

The existing airport has no place to expand. There have been proposals to move the airport over the years, but nobody wants an airport in their backyard. It has the service it does because there is a large tributary population which wants to use it.
 
SonomaFlyer
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RE: How Can SNA Function With Such A Short Runway?

Thu Nov 19, 2015 11:43 pm

Because existing aircraft can safely operate from that runway. There is zero room to expand as the community would not allow this to take place.

SNA occupies a nice niche in the aviation market for the LA area and serves Orange County well, no need to change anything.
 
rwsea
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RE: How Can SNA Function With Such A Short Runway?

Thu Nov 19, 2015 11:44 pm

They can't lengthen the runway because it's already hemmed in on all sides and the neighbors would sue for decades to prevent it. SNA is in a very wealthy area and there are already many more noise and other restrictions compared with other airports.

Why would they need to scale back service? Airlines want to add more service rather than less and despite the current restrictions, the airport isn't particularly congested or subject to ATC delays.
 
32andBelow
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RE: How Can SNA Function With Such A Short Runway?

Thu Nov 19, 2015 11:47 pm

If the planes can take off why does it matter how many of them do?
 
rlwynn
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RE: How Can SNA Function With Such A Short Runway?

Thu Nov 19, 2015 11:50 pm

Actually they could displace the threshold and get another 500 feet or so of takeoff room.

[Edited 2015-11-19 16:03:14]
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Braniff747SP
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RE: How Can SNA Function With Such A Short Runway?

Thu Nov 19, 2015 11:57 pm

Within 24 hours you've posted about two different airports and their runway size, as if it has some bearing on the levels of service it can sustain -- they'd love to expand SAN, but they can't. Why would they scale back service?
The 747 will always be the TRUE queen of the skies!
 
dc10lover
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RE: How Can SNA Function With Such A Short Runway?

Fri Nov 20, 2015 12:04 am

I love watching SNA videos as well as London City Airport. They have short runways and so they full throttle jet engines to take - off.
Why endure the nightmare and congestion of LAX when BUR, LGB, ONT & SNA is so much easier to fly in and out of. Same with OAK & SJC when it comes to SFO.
 
UA444
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RE: How Can SNA Function With Such A Short Runway?

Fri Nov 20, 2015 12:09 am

SNA is why planes like the 73G and 319 are still useful as new planes.
 
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TWA772LR
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RE: How Can SNA Function With Such A Short Runway?

Fri Nov 20, 2015 1:30 am

They should've moved SNA to the former MCAS El Toro. All the hard stuff to put in was there, like runways, taxiways, ramp space, tower, even hangars! Not to mention 3 or 4 8000+ ft runways, which would allow service to any part of the globe and enough space to build a great cargo facility. It would've stimulated the OC economy so much more than the current SNA does. And with it being about an hour from San Diego and an hour from LA, it couldve been a huge regional airport and an awesome alternative to LAX.

But if they would've done that, there wouldn't be any of the fun approaches and takeoffs which we enjoy today.
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av8orwalk
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RE: How Can SNA Function With Such A Short Runway?

Fri Nov 20, 2015 1:41 am

Question about SNA. I flew in last week to go to Disneyland. I was excited about the departure, fully expecting a full throttle rev up, followed by a release of the brakes and then rocketing over the Pacific. However, we departed normally to the north. Is the noise ordinance only for the houses to the south?

Thanks!
Drew MCO
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n562wn
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RE: How Can SNA Function With Such A Short Runway?

Fri Nov 20, 2015 1:53 am

Quoting av8orwalk (Reply 10):
Question about SNA. I flew in last week to go to Disneyland. I was excited about the departure, fully expecting a full throttle rev up, followed by a release of the brakes and then rocketing over the Pacific. However, we departed normally to the north. Is the noise ordinance only for the houses to the south?

Thanks!
Drew MCO

Cant speak for other airlines, but at WN, we perform a noise abatement climb every time regardless of the SID.

[Edited 2015-11-19 17:55:31]
My statements do not represent my former employer or my current employer and are my opinions only.
 
Q
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RE: How Can SNA Function With Such A Short Runway?

Fri Nov 20, 2015 2:05 am

Maybe next decade Boeing 797 or Airbus 390 can land within 4,500 ft and take off less than 5,500ft. SNA-SYD nonstop or SNA-FRA. Who knows? LOL!  

Q
 
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TWA772LR
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RE: How Can SNA Function With Such A Short Runway?

Fri Nov 20, 2015 2:19 am

Quoting av8orwalk (Reply 10):

That happens his time of year. It's the Santa Ana winds. I've even flown in on runway 1L. It was pretty weird.
When wasn't America great?


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Q
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RE: How Can SNA Function With Such A Short Runway?

Fri Nov 20, 2015 4:34 am

FYI,

SNA had been changed runway numbers almost a year ago. No longer 1L/R & 19R/L now changes to 2L/R & 20L/R.


http://airnav.com/airport/KSNA

Q
 
seven3seven
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RE: How Can SNA Function With Such A Short Runway?

Fri Nov 20, 2015 4:38 am

Quoting n562wn (Reply 11):
Cant speak for other airlines, but at WN, we perform a noise abatement climb every time regardless of the SID.

This is not true. We do not have noise abatement departing to the north
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calpsafltskeds
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RE: How Can SNA Function With Such A Short Runway?

Fri Nov 20, 2015 4:49 am

Quoting rlwynn (Reply 5):
Actually they could displace the threshold and get another 500 feet or so of takeoff room.

More like almost 1,000 feet of extra space is available to the north. Leave the displaced threshold for landings and add 950 feet for takeoffs. Takeoffs would mean less noise on most flights as they would lift off nearly 1,000 feet earlier. The longer haul flights would still have to comply with climb and power cutback.
I'm sure this is a Nimby thing, but I don't see any real downside to a runway extension for Newport Beach.
 
32andBelow
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RE: How Can SNA Function With Such A Short Runway?

Fri Nov 20, 2015 4:53 am

Quoting CALPSAFltSkeds (Reply 16):
More like almost 1,000 feet of extra space is available to the north. Leave the displaced threshold for landings and add 950 feet for takeoffs. Takeoffs would mean less noise on most flights as they would lift off nearly 1,000 feet earlier. The longer haul flights would still have to comply with climb and power cutback.
I'm sure this is a Nimby thing, but I don't see any real downside to a runway extension for Newport Beach.

Won't extensive work on your soul runway require at least a certain amount of full closure.
 
rwsea
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RE: How Can SNA Function With Such A Short Runway?

Fri Nov 20, 2015 5:26 am

Quoting CALPSAFltSkeds (Reply 16):
I'm sure this is a Nimby thing, but I don't see any real downside to a runway extension for Newport Beach.

But what's the upside? It works just fine today. And the airport is slot constrained, so it's not like it would add much capacity.
 
PlanesNTrains
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RE: How Can SNA Function With Such A Short Runway?

Fri Nov 20, 2015 5:47 am

Quoting rwsea (Reply 18):
And the airport is slot constrained, so it's not like it would add much capacity.

Well, and isn't it "people" constrained as well? If they cannot carry more actual bodies (IINM) then it doesn't really do any good to bring in larger aircraft because they'd have to reduce the overall number of flights.

Am I wrong on the SNA guidelines?

(And I'll be doing SEA-SNA-SEA next month. Hope WN makes a nice powerful takeoff for us)

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RE: How Can SNA Function With Such A Short Runway?

Fri Nov 20, 2015 5:51 am

Quoting 32andBelow (Reply 17):
Won't extensive work on your soul runway require at least a certain amount of full closure.

No, the Soul plane can still land on it     
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n562wn
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RE: How Can SNA Function With Such A Short Runway?

Fri Nov 20, 2015 12:56 pm

Quoting seven3seven (Reply 15):
This is not true. We do not have noise abatement departing to the north

Ahh yes, you sir are correct. Through the many times i've been there, I've never actually departed north so it never crossed my mind the OP might have witnessed a runway 2L departure.  
My statements do not represent my former employer or my current employer and are my opinions only.
 
ScottB
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RE: How Can SNA Function With Such A Short Runway?

Fri Nov 20, 2015 1:16 pm

Quoting 32andBelow (Reply 17):
Won't extensive work on your soul runway require at least a certain amount of full closure.

If you're talking about just extending the runway, probably not. Plus the airport is essentially closed every night for several hours due to the curfew.

Quoting TWA772LR (Reply 9):
They should've moved SNA to the former MCAS El Toro. All the hard stuff to put in was there, like runways, taxiways, ramp space, tower, even hangars! Not to mention 3 or 4 8000+ ft runways, which would allow service to any part of the globe and enough space to build a great cargo facility.

Well, in reality only two of the runways would have been usable for commercial operations given the extremely close spacing of both pairs of runways -- and those runways would be crossing. And 8000' would have been a bit short for long-haul operations, so investment in extending one or both runways would have been necessary. In reality, the investment needed to improve the infrastructure over what's available at SNA would have run in the billions, and Southern California is probably better off with a primary gateway for intercontinental traffic to avoid fragmentation.
 
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RE: How Can SNA Function With Such A Short Runway?

Fri Nov 20, 2015 1:24 pm

Quoting 717atOGG (Thread starter):

The reason they don't extend the runway is to ensure that service is limited. I don't understand what you mean by "scale back". That's what the runway does and there is nothing wrong with its length for the service they desire to sustain.
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NickLAX
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RE: How Can SNA Function With Such A Short Runway?

Fri Nov 20, 2015 3:41 pm

SNA is a 24 hour airport for operations that fall under the noise abatement process (light aircraft, select GA jets). Commercial operations (and manned tower) are 7AM to 11PM (departures till 10PM, Sunday 8AM start) per Noise abatement. You DO have jet operations overnight every now and then and they apply to select GA aircaft, banned aircraft listed here http://www.ocair.com/generalaviation/ganoise_procedures. Specific aircraft like the Gulfstream IV CAN operate overnight with a specific process Gulfstream worked out with the airport: http://www.ocair.com/generalaviation/naprocedures_gulfstreamIV

I've flown into SNA 2AM before (light GA aircraft) and it's tower frequency is a standard CTAF/Common Traffic freq as tower is unattended, lighting is Pilot controlled. The night time noise levels are listed in the noise limits chart on the first link - they are signficantly lower Db SENEL.

Considering we have 5 airports in the LA Basin (LAX, SNA, BUR and LGB) + PSP + SBA further out - SNA services the needs of the community near it with routes that work for the size limitation of the runway. There is no need to lengthen the runway and no need to pull flights. It just works. We do have International flights to Canada and Mexico and no need to push for anything beyond that where larger aircraft or runway length would be approached. The County of Orange has a longer term play here to push for more slots and pax counts, with the latter the big push. Do take into account that a 737-300 or MD-80 that neighbors had to put up with when noise regs hit are quite a bit more noisy then a more recent 737-NG (or even the MAX) and same on the A319/A320's that come into SNA (with expectation of the A320 Neo being the same)

[Edited 2015-11-20 07:43:16]
 
rlwynn
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RE: How Can SNA Function With Such A Short Runway?

Fri Nov 20, 2015 4:44 pm

Quoting NickLAX (Reply 24):
Do take into account that a 737-300 or MD-80 that neighbors had to put up with when noise regs hit are quite a bit more noisy then a more recent 737-NG (or even the MAX) and same on the A319/A320's that come into SNA (with expectation of the A320 Neo being the same)

It was then the 737-200, DC-9 and early biz jets. I would like to see the reaction of people in the flight path if one of those took off now. But one thing with SNA is that a large percentage of the homes affected by noise were there before the jets. Hence the large power that the nimbys have.
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Sooner787
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RE: How Can SNA Function With Such A Short Runway?

Fri Nov 20, 2015 5:33 pm

Some of my favorite aviation memories are launching out of SNA in a 757,

That was always an adventure
  
 
Cubsrule
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RE: How Can SNA Function With Such A Short Runway?

Fri Nov 20, 2015 6:40 pm

Quoting n562wn (Reply 11):
Cant speak for other airlines, but at WN, we perform a noise abatement climb every time regardless of the SID.

I think part of the "issue" is that noise abatement procedures aren't that noticeable on the 73G and 738. I was in SNA a couple of months ago and left on a mostly-full 738 on a ~1,200 mile flight. The climb wasn't lazy, but it wasn't that much different from, for instance, departing MDW on a flight of similar length.
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MD80Nut
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RE: How Can SNA Function With Such A Short Runway?

Fri Nov 20, 2015 9:53 pm

Quoting Sooner787 (Reply 26):
Some of my favorite aviation memories are launching out of SNA in a 757,That was always an adventure

I hear 'ya. I've done 757 takeofs both times I've been there and they were great. Really got up and away with "great urgency."

Cheers, Ralph
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cschleic
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RE: How Can SNA Function With Such A Short Runway?

Fri Nov 20, 2015 10:42 pm

Quoting Braniff747SP (Reply 6):
Why would they scale back service?

Right. Why would any airport scale back service solely based on runway length? True, there are routes not flown that otherwise could be, but most airports (like SNA) are pretty full as it is. They're going to use them to the max they can given the conditions.

If every world runway were, say, 3,000 ft. longer, planes that can handle shorter runways might not exist.

At SNA, it's kind of fun to see all those 6:50 am scheduled departures taxi out, with one 757 lining up and waiting on the runway until the clock ticks 7:00am and, with a roar, off it goes.
 
greg3322
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RE: How Can SNA Function With Such A Short Runway?

Fri Nov 20, 2015 11:51 pm

Quoting Cubsrule (Reply 27):
I think part of the "issue" is that noise abatement procedures aren't that noticeable on the 73G and 738. I was in SNA a couple of months ago and left on a mostly-full 738 on a ~1,200 mile flight. The climb wasn't lazy, but it wasn't that much different from, for instance, departing MDW on a flight of similar length.

I was on a full AA 738 recently heading to ORD and they didn't bother to stop on the takeoff roll - just throttled up as we went around the corner.

Quoting cschleic (Reply 29):
At SNA, it's kind of fun to see all those 6:50 am scheduled departures taxi out, with one 757 lining up and waiting on the runway until the clock ticks 7:00am and, with a roar, off it goes.

One of my favorite things to witness. Aircraft are lined up on the west side taxiway and on runway 20L. LGB does the same thing, too.
 
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ATA L1011
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RE: How Can SNA Function With Such A Short Runway?

Fri Nov 20, 2015 11:58 pm

Quoting NickLAX (Reply 24):
Do take into account that a 737-300 or MD-80 that neighbors had to put up with when noise regs hit are quite a bit more noisy then a more recent 737-NG (or even the MAX) and same on the A319/A320's that come into SNA (with expectation of the A320 Neo being the same)

Well the MD80 was but the 737-300 is just about as quiet on takeoff and approach as the 737-700 and A319, 737-200 now I can see that back in the day as being an issue. When I'm at my sisters that lives sorta under the departure pattern at Burbank, the SW 733's are just as quiet as the 73G's and 738's.
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RE: How Can SNA Function With Such A Short Runway?

Sat Nov 21, 2015 12:06 am

Quoting MD80Nut (Reply 28):
I hear 'ya. I've done 757 takeofs both times I've been there and they were great. Really got up and away with "great urgency."

One of my most memorable takeoffs was on a pmUA 757 flying SNA-ORD. Our standing run-up lasted until the fuselage was shaking and all the newbie flyers were clutching their seats.
 
cschleic
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RE: How Can SNA Function With Such A Short Runway?

Sat Nov 21, 2015 6:17 pm

Quoting kgaiflyer (Reply 32):
Our standing run-up lasted until the fuselage was shaking and all the newbie flyers were clutching their seats.

I love the sound of airplane noise in the morning.
 
afcjets
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RE: How Can SNA Function With Such A Short Runway?

Sat Nov 21, 2015 6:43 pm

Quoting TWA772LR (Reply 13):
That happens his time of year. It's the Santa Ana winds.

The Santa Ana's can happen any time of year, although I can't recall any during the month of June before.

Quoting rlwynn (Reply 25):
It was then the 737-200, DC-9 and early biz jets. I would like to see the reaction of people in the flight path if one of those took off now.

I would love it!
 
717atOGG
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RE: How Can SNA Function With Such A Short Runway?

Sat Nov 21, 2015 8:25 pm

Was the airport made with 737 and DC-9 size airplanes in mind? Or was it made with only being a general aviation airport?
Long live the Boeing 757!
 
b747400erf
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RE: How Can SNA Function With Such A Short Runway?

Sat Nov 21, 2015 8:35 pm

The poors live north of the airport, the rich live south, that is why there is only noise abatement in one direction.
 
rlwynn
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RE: How Can SNA Function With Such A Short Runway?

Sat Nov 21, 2015 9:21 pm

Quoting 717atOGG (Reply 35):
Was the airport made with 737 and DC-9 size airplanes in mind? Or was it made with only being a general aviation airport?

There were no 737 DC-9 size planes when the runway was built to the current length. Just props. The jets came around 4 years later in 1967.
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bjorn14
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RE: How Can SNA Function With Such A Short Runway?

Sat Nov 21, 2015 10:00 pm

Quoting TWA772LR (Reply 9):

Yeah, it really is too bad about El Toro and even Miramar that they cannot have commercial flights. Lots of unused runway space in SoCal.
"I want to know the voice of God the rest is just details" --A. Einstein
 
barney captain
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RE: How Can SNA Function With Such A Short Runway?

Sat Nov 21, 2015 10:36 pm

Quoting Cubsrule (Reply 27):
I think part of the "issue" is that noise abatement procedures aren't that noticeable on the 73G and 738. I was in SNA a couple of months ago and left on a mostly-full 738 on a ~1,200 mile flight. The climb wasn't lazy, but it wasn't that much different from, for instance, departing MDW on a flight of similar length.

It's because you were on a heavy a/c that the cutback wasn't as noticeable. The cutback is weight dependant therefore = the lighter the a/c, the bigger the reduction.
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717atOGG
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RE: How Can SNA Function With Such A Short Runway?

Sun Nov 22, 2015 3:17 am

Quoting rlwynn (Reply 37):

Well then when the runway was extended to its current length, was there houses close to the runway at that time?
Long live the Boeing 757!
 
incitatus
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RE: How Can SNA Function With Such A Short Runway?

Sun Nov 22, 2015 3:27 am

Orange Co. people like to export the noise and pollution of their air travel to LA Co.. That is why SNA cannot be expanded and El Toro did not pan out.
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Beardown91737
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RE: How Can SNA Function With Such A Short Runway?

Sun Nov 22, 2015 4:05 am

Quoting B747400ERF (Reply 36):
The poors live north of the airport, the rich live south, that is why there is only noise abatement in one direction.

Kind of true, relatively speaking, but also the north has commercial/industrial, the south has residential and wetlands.
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Quoting incitatus (Reply 41):

Orange Co. people like to export the noise and pollution of their air travel to LA Co.. That is why SNA cannot be expanded and El Toro did not pan out

I think it is more that they want the airport for themselves for their own convenience, but don't want so many inbound travelers. Plus the rest of OC (the 1%-85%ers) does not care a lot about the Newport Beach NIMBYs (the 1%-3%ers).

For Orange County Great Park (formerly El Toro), they would not want the masses driving in from all over SoCal. Plus it would have a bigger noise map than SNA which is relatively near the coastline. You can see the former El Toro runways on the above map, to the east of SNA.
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RE: How Can SNA Function With Such A Short Runway?

Sun Nov 22, 2015 4:27 am

Quoting incitatus (Reply 41):

Precisely correct! LGB is becoming more and more and more the same way as gentrification takes over the airport area.
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NickLAX
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RE: How Can SNA Function With Such A Short Runway?

Sun Nov 22, 2015 5:39 pm

Quoting B747400ERF (Reply 36):
The poors live north of the airport, the rich live south, that is why there is only noise abatement in one direction.

Not true at all - Go into Yorba Linda and Anaheim Hills - all subject to arrival noise at SNA - NOT Poor by any stretch. Demographic wise, Anaheim and Santa Ana do NOT equate the entire North County, lots of other cities demographic wise.

Quoting incitatus (Reply 41):

Orange Co. people like to export the noise and pollution of their air travel to LA Co.. That is why SNA cannot be expanded and El Toro did not pan out.

SNA covers the regional travel fine, many people connect via SFO for Eastbound Intl and multitude of other hubs going Eastbound Intl. To say "we export" the noise pollution is a bit of drama. In traffic it can take 2 hours to get to LAX - hence why many will just bear with a connection (I'm at LAX anyway often enough that I just do nonstops out of there - I'm not the norm though)
 
717atOGG
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RE: How Can SNA Function With Such A Short Runway?

Sun Nov 22, 2015 5:46 pm

What airlines flew 757's into SNA besides DL with SNA-ATL?
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RE: How Can SNA Function With Such A Short Runway?

Sun Nov 22, 2015 5:49 pm

Quoting 717atOGG (Thread starter):

UA, AA, HP, US have all flown into SNA with 757s
In memory of my Dad, Robert "Bob" Fenrich, WAL 1964-1979, MSP ONT LAX
 
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RE: How Can SNA Function With Such A Short Runway?

Sun Nov 22, 2015 7:38 pm

Quoting NickLAX (Reply 44):
Not true at all - Go into Yorba Linda and Anaheim Hills - all subject to arrival noise at SNA - NOT Poor by any stretch. Demographic wise, Anaheim and Santa Ana do NOT equate the entire North County, lots of other cities demographic wise.

The only area near the airport on departure that is wealthy is south by the beach. That is why departure procedures are only for south departure. And for the wealthy northern neighborhoods a longer distance away from the airport there are arrival and departure procedures that helps with noise abatement
 
rlwynn
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RE: How Can SNA Function With Such A Short Runway?

Sun Nov 22, 2015 7:56 pm

So people that do not know can have a pic of the situation. From the end of the runway all the way to the ocean was almost all there already when jets started flying out of SNA. The neighborhoods to the right are from the 30s and 40s.

https://lissahk.files.wordpress.com/2010/08/john-wayne-airport-santa-ana-california.jpg
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LAXintl
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RE: How Can SNA Function With Such A Short Runway?

Sun Nov 22, 2015 8:10 pm

Quoting B747400ERF (Reply 47):
The only area near the airport on departure that is wealthy is south by the beach. That is why departure procedures are only for south departure. And for the wealthy northern neighborhoods a longer distance away from the airport there are arrival and departure procedures that helps with noise abatement

SNA special noise procedures have nothing to do with wealthy vs non wealthy.

It goes back into history and fact that the area to the north was largely open vacant lands and in more recent decades filled in with commerical developments.
Matter of fact the area off the northside of the airport is not even zoned for residential development.




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From the desert to the sea, to all of Southern California

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