bmacleod
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More Depressing News For C-Series

Fri Nov 20, 2015 2:26 pm

As if things weren't bad enough for Bombardier specifically the C-Series needing funding from the Quebec government; now Bombardier is asking for money from the Federal government....

Even then it may still be doomed ....

http://www.theprovince.com/business/...+wants+federal/11506951/story.html

[Edited 2015-11-20 06:32:58]
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vegas005
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RE: More Depressing News For C-Series

Fri Nov 20, 2015 6:31 pm

I got run off the board last time, but I'll say it again...the plane is a dog........
 
DTWPurserBoy
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RE: More Depressing News For C-Series

Fri Nov 20, 2015 6:42 pm

I say it was so delayed it missed its market.
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Quantos
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RE: More Depressing News For C-Series

Fri Nov 20, 2015 6:53 pm

So this is the second thread with a very negative and editorialized title in a day about a single piece of information concerning the C Series. Are some of you guys on a vendetta or something? We already have a bunch of existing threads where the government (and CDPQ) participation in the C Series program is being discussed. Can we keep it there instead of multiplying these "bad news guys" topics?
Quantos,

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Beatyair
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RE: More Depressing News For C-Series

Fri Nov 20, 2015 7:34 pm

Lets hope Thursdays meeting with United Airlines went well!
 
CXH
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RE: More Depressing News For C-Series

Fri Nov 20, 2015 8:37 pm

This is old news. The news article in the first post is dated November 11th - which is nine days ago.

As Quantos mentioned, this has been discussed in many other CSeries threads.

On Monday, Nov 16th, the CEO Alain Bellemare said they were in discussions with the federal government about taking an equity position in the CSeries or other programs, so again, it is out there in the news.

Quoting Beatyair (Reply 4):

Lets hope Thursdays meeting with United Airlines went well!

United is trying to get major scope clause changes in their union contracts with their pilots. Apparently they have told the union they would buy 100 CSeries or E2 jets or similar (100+ seat) planes if they agreed to lower wages for pilots flying those planes.
It will take many months or longer to see if such an offer is actually acceptable to the pilots.
I've seen the future, I can't afford it. - Martin Fry
 
DTWPurserBoy
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RE: More Depressing News For C-Series

Sat Nov 21, 2015 12:11 am

DL had expressed an early interest in the C series which appears to be a fine aircraft. But they settled on the B717 instead. They might still be interested in the 100 series but who knows. I would love to see the airplane go to UA.
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BoeingGuy
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RE: More Depressing News For C-Series

Sat Nov 21, 2015 12:13 am

Quoting vegas005 (Reply 1):
I got run off the board last time, but I'll say it again...the plane is a dog........

How so? Please explain your thoughts on this.
 
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RJ321
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RE: More Depressing News For C-Series

Sat Nov 21, 2015 4:55 am

IMO; delays as well as trying to compete with the already established and HIGHLY competitive market of short-medium haul is dooming this particular line in bombardier. I see that if the company survives (which I think -and hope- it will) it will do so without its C-Series line. Also, do not forget that Bombardier produces other products such as trains.
 
F9Animal
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RE: More Depressing News For C-Series

Sat Nov 21, 2015 5:29 am

The C-Series will be successful. It is a great airplane, and will do just fine. Canada will not let the manufacturer fail. This is old news by the way.
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UA444
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RE: More Depressing News For C-Series

Sat Nov 21, 2015 6:01 am

Quoting CXH (Reply 5):
ntracts with their pilots. Apparently they have told the union they would buy 100 CSeries or E2 jets or similar (100+ seat) planes if they agreed to lower wages for pilots flying those planes.
It will take many months or longer to see if such an offer is actually acceptable to the pilots.

No. They already have pay scales. Talks were for other things.
 
Grummancat
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RE: More Depressing News For C-Series

Sat Nov 21, 2015 6:42 am

Quoting DTWPurserBoy (Reply 2):
I say it was so delayed it missed its market.

Sounds like a certain 3-engined widebody that drove Lockheed out of the business...
 
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TWA772LR
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RE: More Depressing News For C-Series

Sat Nov 21, 2015 7:14 am

I really hope UA orders this plane. It is a beautiful aircraft and has tons of potential to even replace their entire narrow body fleet that's smaller than the 739 (granted BBD goes ahead with the CS500), and even a possibility for TATL performance.

Quoting F9Animal (Reply 9):

This is not the a.net truths thread.
When wasn't America great?


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starrymarkb
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RE: More Depressing News For C-Series

Sat Nov 21, 2015 7:24 am

Bombardier have just sold 30% of their rail division to CDPQ (and set up a new UK based holding company)
 
G500
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RE: More Depressing News For C-Series

Sat Nov 21, 2015 1:42 pm

Why in the hell is Bombardier giving priority to a regional jet???? Jeez

They make their monye on business jets. Focus on the Global 7000 and 8000. That's where the money is. Just ask Gulfstream how they're making out with their Gulfstream 650.

Bombardier should put their attention on the Challengers 350/650, Global 5000/6000/7000/8000

Enough of this "Cseries" non-sense
 
bobnwa
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RE: More Depressing News For C-Series

Sat Nov 21, 2015 2:17 pm

Quoting vegas005 (Reply 1):
I got run off the board last time, but I'll say it again...the plane is a dog........

Explain getting run off the board?
 
Gr8Circle
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RE: More Depressing News For C-Series

Sat Nov 21, 2015 3:03 pm

Quoting G500 (Reply 14):
Enough of this "Cseries" non-sense

If this troubles you so much, just stop reading threads about the CSeries......here we have a company that sunk billion of dollars into developing a new plane for the market......granted, things have not gone well for them......but do you seriously think they can drop the program and lose all they have invested just because it troubles a few armchair experts like you?
 
hz747300
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RE: More Depressing News For C-Series

Sat Nov 21, 2015 3:45 pm

Let's be honest, it is currently in the most competitive space in airplane manufacturing for passenger travel. With the Superjet gaining in "western" markets, the MRJ having its test flight, baby Airbus and baby Boeing, plus the next generation of Jungle Jets (having their own problems but coming online), the C-Series will have to be amazingly special.
Keep on truckin'...
 
catiii
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RE: More Depressing News For C-Series

Sat Nov 21, 2015 4:26 pm

Quoting Beatyair (Reply 4):

Lets hope Thursdays meeting with United Airlines went well!


UA has also been exploring a number of used narrowbody options. I think you'll see something publicly on that soon.

Quoting CXH (Reply 5):
United is trying to get major scope clause changes in their union contracts with their pilots. Apparently they have told the union they would buy 100 CSeries or E2 jets or similar (100+ seat) planes if they agreed to lower wages for pilots flying those planes.
It will take many months or longer to see if such an offer is actually acceptable to the pilots.

As noted pay scales are already negotiated and then announced a contract extension last evening: http://www.prnewswire.com/news-relea...tend-pilot-contract-300182865.html
 
aviationaware
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RE: More Depressing News For C-Series

Sat Nov 21, 2015 5:02 pm

Quoting DTWPurserBoy (Reply 2):
I say it was so delayed it missed its market.

Absolutely true. When it was conceived, it was a great idea. Not sure if the technology would have been there to make it a great execution, of which BBD is capable of, too.

When it was actually decided to move forward with it, the sweet spot in the market was already shifting. Management should have seen that & scrapped the program. Terrible decision to go ahead with it - even though the execution is to the highest standards and it is a great aircraft, there simply is no market for it anymore.
 
solarflyer22
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RE: More Depressing News For C-Series

Sat Nov 21, 2015 6:18 pm

It looks like a great aircraft and the interior cockpit looked as advanced as a 787 if not more so. If the engines and metrics hold up, it should be 15%-20 cheaper to fly than what is being used now which is not insignificant. What they need to do is sell more planes. They are just not selling that many if I were them I would instead try to lease some of these out. You need to build up an installed user base and the advantage of the leased planes is that the customer doesn't have to worry about resale value after the lease or the long term viability of the plane. They can get their 7-10 year lease, fly it around and make some profits and then dump it if the C Series goes out of production or something.

There is a lot of risk in buying a product with a 25 year life span. You need the vendor to support it for at least that long. I think some customers are scared off worried that it won't be a good investment over that period of time or that support and parts will become hard if its canceled down the road. Leasing to me solves a lot of these problems. I'd call every third world country out there and ask them if they want to lease them for 7-10 years. At the minimum, it postpones a write off for Bombardier for 10 years. I strongly suspect Iran is going with Sukhoi's Superjet and A320's but its a real shame Canada did not try to get 20-30 of these in Iran. It's perfect for smaller cities like Kish, Urmia, Kashan, Royan etc. I think it would be great for intra-Central Asian traffic too between the thin-medium routes.
 
planemaker
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RE: More Depressing News For C-Series

Sat Nov 21, 2015 8:14 pm

Quoting aviationaware (Reply 19):
When it was conceived, it was a great idea.

It was conceived as the BRJ-X and that was solely to try to win the Lufthansa and Crossair orders which initially went to FD. FD subsequently allowed EMB to backdoor them on the Crossair order... and then we know what happened.

Quoting aviationaware (Reply 19):
When it was actually decided to move forward with it, the sweet spot in the market was already shifting.

The "sweet spot" shift was not really a factor... it was that the business case was fundamentally not viable for the many reasons explained over the years.

Quoting aviationaware (Reply 19):
Management should have seen that & scrapped the program.

Paul Tellier tried once and the family showed him the door.

Quoting aviationaware (Reply 19):
there simply is no market for it anymore.

Now that is true.
Nationalism is an infantile disease. It is the measles of mankind. - A. Einstein
 
CXH
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RE: More Depressing News For C-Series

Sat Nov 21, 2015 8:32 pm

Quoting UA444 (Reply 10):
No. They already have pay scales. Talks were for other things.
Quoting catiii (Reply 18):

UA has also been exploring a number of used narrowbody options. I think you'll see something publicly on that soon.

Quoting CXH (Reply 5):
United is trying to get major scope clause changes in their union contracts with their pilots. Apparently they have told the union they would buy 100 CSeries or E2 jets or similar (100+ seat) planes if they agreed to lower wages for pilots flying those planes.
It will take many months or longer to see if such an offer is actually acceptable to the pilots.

As noted pay scales are already negotiated and then announced a contract extension last evening: http://www.prnewswire.com/news-relea....html

UA444, CATIII: Interesting. I don't follow UA issues much, so I didn't realize that.
I finally tracked down one of the source of those rumors:
Quote:
United Airlines, which was identified as a major prospect for Bombardier and its CS100. According to multiple news reports, UA is holding out an order for the CS100 as an inducement for some pilot contract revisions.

http://leehamnews.com/2015/11/17/emb...roadening-market-in-north-america/
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planemaker
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RE: More Depressing News For C-Series

Sat Nov 21, 2015 9:28 pm

Quoting solarflyer22 (Reply 20):
it should be 15%-20 cheaper to fly than what is being used now which is not insignificant.

It was at one point when oil was over $100 but those days are long gone. This past week oil breiefly entered the $30s range before ending the week at $40.39.

The GTF is offering ~15% efficiency gains. What is that in cash terms when oil was at $115 and now that it is pressuring the $30s level. OPEC provided the biggest cash "efficiency" gain to the A320 and 738 (which are being pitched against the CS300) and enable A & B to offer big revenue upside and scheduling efficiencies.
Nationalism is an infantile disease. It is the measles of mankind. - A. Einstein
 
F9Animal
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RE: More Depressing News For C-Series

Sat Nov 21, 2015 11:17 pm

Milestone passed on certifications! Not sure what it all entails, but caught wind of it. Can anyone confirm the details? I could have sworn I heard the aircraft passed flight testing? If so, strap on your seat belts......... This baby will sell like hotcakes.
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planemaker
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RE: More Depressing News For C-Series

Sat Nov 21, 2015 11:40 pm

Quoting F9Animal (Reply 24):
Milestone passed on certifications! Not sure what it all entails, but caught wind of it. Can anyone confirm the details? I could have sworn I heard the aircraft passed flight testing?

BBD has completed flight testing on the CS100 that is required for certification. Paperwork still has to be processed and reviewed by Transport Canada. However, CS100 certification is still targeted before the end of the year and delivery to Swiss in the second half of 2016.
Nationalism is an infantile disease. It is the measles of mankind. - A. Einstein
 
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jetblastdubai
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RE: More Depressing News For C-Series

Sun Nov 22, 2015 12:20 am

Quoting CXH (Reply 5):
Apparently they have told the union they would buy 100 CSeries or E2 jets or similar (100+ seat) planes if they agreed to lower wages for pilots flying those planes.

If this was the case, since there aren't many other announced CS100/300 buyers, any estimates on how many planes per month they could pump out for a customer that places a large order?
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B777LRF
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RE: More Depressing News For C-Series

Sun Nov 22, 2015 12:27 am

The problem facing the CS is, that Boeing or Airbus will sell a slightly more capable 73G/A319 for just about the same price as BBD are able to offer.

Which places a very compelling question: Why take the risk on a new product, when you can effectively get a known quantity cheaper?

And that, ladies and gentlemen, is the reason the CS will fail and, quite possibly, take BBD with it.
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StrandedAtMKG
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RE: More Depressing News For C-Series

Sun Nov 22, 2015 1:16 am

Quoting hz747300 (Reply 17):
Let's be honest, it is currently in the most competitive space in airplane manufacturing for passenger travel. With the Superjet gaining in "western" markets, the MRJ having its test flight, baby Airbus and baby Boeing, plus the next generation of Jungle Jets (having their own problems but coming online), the C-Series will have to be amazingly special.

This. I get that for a maker of small regional jets pushing up into the 100-130 seat market seems like a natural progression, but there are already a half-dozen aircraft of similar size on the market or coming soon. The 737 is already the best-selling airliner in the history of the world and the A320 series isn't far behind, so to try to push up into a saturated market seems like a really silly idea.
 
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jetblastdubai
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RE: More Depressing News For C-Series

Sun Nov 22, 2015 1:27 am

Quoting B777LRF (Reply 27):
The problem facing the CS is, that Boeing or Airbus will sell a slightly more capable 73G/A319 for just about the same price as BBD are able to offer.

The one big thing going for BBD is the SCOPE clause. If UA really needs/wants to get more passenger-friendly 76-seaters in the regional fleet and reduce the dependence on the 50-seaters, they need to acquire a mainline plane that is NOT in the 737/A320 family.

Whether the 73G or A319 is more capable or not, ALPA has tied the hands of the company when it comes to adding more comfortable 76-seaters. It's a CS100 or E190 family or nothing.
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DTWPurserBoy
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RE: More Depressing News For C-Series

Sun Nov 22, 2015 1:39 am

Quoting B777LRF (Reply 27):
And that, ladies and gentlemen, is the reason the CS will fail and, quite possibly, take BBD with it

I had not considered that but it could happen, especially with Japan, China and Russia offering similar products. BBD does well in the turboprop market and with the C900 but eventually that market will dry up. Most carriers have on hand or on order a sufficient number of frames with that range and capacity.

I am very surprised how well the Russian -95 is doing internationally. I am very much looking forward to flying on one. Now if they could just break into the US market.....
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planemaker
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RE: More Depressing News For C-Series

Sun Nov 22, 2015 1:53 am

Quoting B777LRF (Reply 27):
The problem facing the CS is, that Boeing or Airbus will sell a slightly more capable 73G/A319 for just about the same price as BBD are able to offer.

Actually, Airbus has offered the A320 at a lower price than the CS300. And lease rates for OEO and NGs are a third to a half the CS300 rate.

Quoting B777LRF (Reply 27):
Which places a very compelling question: Why take the risk on a new product, when you can effectively get a known quantity cheaper?

It is more than just being cheaper... there is the revenue upside with the larger A or B and scheduling/commonality benefits.

Quoting StrandedAtMKG (Reply 28):
This. I get that for a maker of small regional jets pushing up into the 100-130 seat market seems like a natural progression, but there are already a half-dozen aircraft of similar size on the market or coming soon. The 737 is already the best-selling airliner in the history of the world and the A320 series isn't far behind, so to try to push up into a saturated market seems like a really silly idea.

Originally BBD was trying to stay below the 73G and A319 but that market evaporated because it took so long to launch the CSeries. But underlying all that is that there was never a solid business case for the CSeries.
Nationalism is an infantile disease. It is the measles of mankind. - A. Einstein
 
AngMoh
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RE: More Depressing News For C-Series

Sun Nov 22, 2015 4:09 am

Quoting planemaker (Reply 23):
It was at one point when oil was over $100 but those days are long gone. This past week oil breiefly entered the $30s range before ending the week at $40.39.

The GTF is offering ~15% efficiency gains. What is that in cash terms when oil was at $115 and now that it is pressuring the $30s level. OPEC provided the biggest cash "efficiency" gain to the A320 and 738 (which are being pitched against the CS300) and enable A & B to offer big revenue upside and scheduling efficiencies.

You make an assumption that the C-series is doomed on a prediction that oil will stay at this level and go down. Nobody knows what the oil price is going to be, but what the industry agrees on is that you are wrong.

I was at a oil and gas conference this week and there was one session on oil prices. The session was by people who's job it is to make the financial analysis needed to justify billion dollar investments in oil and gas exploration. Some conclusions and forecasts:
1) Almost everyone is losing money because the cost of oil recovery is higher than the selling price. There are oil fields where the cost of getting the oil out of the ground is $100/barrel.
2) Even Saudi Arabia is bleeding financially but the have enough cash to continue this policy. Other countries (even in the middle east) are no so lucky.
3) One of the reasons for the dumping of oil by OPEC was to drive the US shale oil out of the business. That strategy does not work - US shale is much more resilient than expected.
4) Drilling for new oil has effectively come to a halt and all activity is on exploitation of existing reserves. The expected reduction in oil recovery has not happened at the rate expected, but it is happening.
5) There was a long period of low oil prices in the 80's. At that time supply was about 25% higher than demand. This time supply is only 1-2% higher than demand, therefore there are many factors which can change the whole scenario quickly.
6) Oil will stay low in 2016 with activities (e.g. exploration for new reserves) picking up in first half of 2017.
7) The consensus was that oil will settle to about $75 by 2020 which is the long term average oil price adjusted for inflation.

I know you hate the C-series for reasons I don't understand. But BBD had to come out with a new platform, otherwise they would have been out of the airliner business by 2020 and only selling business jets. This is really a "bet the company" project, but they were left with no other choice.

I hope BBD will make it but I am not 100% sure.

But if they had done nothing, they would be shutting down soon, and that is a guarantee. What is happening with BBD is similar to the last few years of Fokker, but hopefully with a better outcome.
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Sparrow787
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RE: More Depressing News For C-Series

Sun Nov 22, 2015 4:26 am

I know it is not the same situation, but have you guys forgotten about the 787? how delayed it was and how negative everyone was being about the future of the 787? I understand that boeing at least had the orders to fall back on, but who knows, maybe after a few enter service and the plane lives up to its promises, maybe then bombardier will see more orders come through.
I think we just have to wait and see what happens.
 
Beatyair
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RE: More Depressing News For C-Series

Sun Nov 22, 2015 7:14 am

Quoting CXH (Reply 5):
United is trying to get major scope clause changes in their union contracts with their pilots. Apparently they have told the union they would buy 100 CSeries or E2 jets or similar (100+ seat) planes if they agreed to lower wages for pilots flying those planes.
It will take many months or longer to see if such an offer is actually acceptable to the pilots.

The Union agreed to the deal on Thursday.
The board needs to sign off as well in the next few weeks. Lets hope that Bombardier can make a splash.
 
planemaker
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RE: More Depressing News For C-Series

Sun Nov 22, 2015 7:44 am

Quoting AngMoh (Reply 32):
You make an assumption that the C-series is doomed on a prediction that oil will stay at this level and go down.

Obviously you haven't followed my posts because oil price is just one factor of many that I have highlighted over the years.

Quoting AngMoh (Reply 32):
Nobody knows what the oil price is going to be, but what the industry agrees on is that you are wrong.

I was correct!   When everyone else was predicting oil going to $200, I was the only one on here that agreed with Adam Pilarski that oil would go down to $40.


Quoting AngMoh (Reply 32):
1) Almost everyone is losing money because the cost of oil recovery is higher than the selling price.

Not true. Many but not "almost everyone"... far from it!

Quoting AngMoh (Reply 32):
2) Even Saudi Arabia is bleeding financially but the have enough cash to continue this policy. Other countries (even in the middle east) are no so lucky.

Old news that has been posted before.

Quoting AngMoh (Reply 32):
3) One of the reasons for the dumping of oil by OPEC was to drive the US shale oil out of the business. That strategy does not work - US shale is much more resilient than expected.

Old news that has been posted before.

Quoting AngMoh (Reply 32):
4) Drilling for new oil has effectively come to a halt and all activity is on exploitation of existing reserves.

There is no need to explore for more reserves since at least 50% of existing reserves will never be extracted.

Quoting AngMoh (Reply 32):
5) There was a long period of low oil prices in the 80's. At that time supply was about 25% higher than demand. This time supply is only 1-2% higher than demand, therefore there are many factors which can change the whole scenario quickly.

That is what the oil producers and traders dream about... but this isn't the 80's.

Quoting AngMoh (Reply 32):
7) The consensus was that oil will settle to about $75 by 2020 which is the long term average oil price adjusted for inflation.

That is what they are praying for now... when just two years ago they were expecting $200.

Quoting AngMoh (Reply 32):
I know you hate the C-series for reasons I don't understand.

Again you are incorrect.
Nationalism is an infantile disease. It is the measles of mankind. - A. Einstein
 
PlanesNTrains
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RE: More Depressing News For C-Series

Sun Nov 22, 2015 5:43 pm

Quoting AngMoh (Reply 32):
But BBD had to come out with a new platform, otherwise they would have been out of the airliner business by 2020 and only selling business jets. This is really a "bet the company" project, but they were left with no other choice.

I would disagree. They had a choice and chose to bet the company. With their business jets and trains (and whatever else they do) they could have still remained in business and probably been successful. Instead they felt the need to "bet the company" because they likely didn't want to exit the commercial side for their own reasons.

I'm not anti-CSeries. I wish it'd gather steam in the orders arena. However, I firmly disagree that they had to do more. Now they are taking cash infusions (investments) from the government just to keep the program alive. Doesn't sound like they really even "bet the company" with their own money at this point.

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-Dave


MAX’d out on MAX threads. If you are starting a thread, and it’s about the MAX - stop. There’s already a thread that covers it.
 
planemaker
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RE: More Depressing News For C-Series

Sun Nov 22, 2015 6:16 pm

Quoting PlanesNTrains (Reply 36):
Doesn't sound like they really even "bet the company" with their own money at this point.

Moreover, the BBD family firewalled the rest of BBD from the CSeries by setting up a separate entity for the Quebec government's "investment". If the CSeries fails, the taxpayers are completely SOL... not only on the launch aid but also on the $1 billion bailout. As the opposition party in government stated, the "investment" should have been in BBD and not the separate entity.
Nationalism is an infantile disease. It is the measles of mankind. - A. Einstein
 
L-188
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RE: More Depressing News For C-Series

Sun Nov 22, 2015 9:37 pm

Quoting RJ321 (Reply 8):
IMO; delays as well as trying to compete with the already established and HIGHLY competitive market of short-medium haul is dooming this particular line in bombardier

Agreed. There is way too much competition in this size.

Just off the top of my head:
Sukhoi Superjet.

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Embrarer 195

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And a couple of Chinese types

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And the new Mitsubishi

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Plus all the used aircraft in that field, and I think you can safely say the C-liner missed it's timing for being a successful launch
OBAMA-WORST PRESIDENT EVER....Even SKOORB would be better.
 
queb
Posts: 1015
Joined: Tue Jun 01, 2010 3:10 am

RE: More Depressing News For C-Series

Mon Nov 23, 2015 4:14 am

Quoting L-188 (Reply 38):

all those aircraft have the size of the CS100 or smaller, except the C919 and E195 (which is almost the same size.) Nothing to compare to the CS300. The Cseries is not a regional jet.
 
UA444
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RE: More Depressing News For C-Series

Mon Nov 23, 2015 4:50 am

Quoting L-188 (Reply 38):

Only the Embarer and Mitsubishi will be competition in any 1st world country.
 
Flighty
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RE: More Depressing News For C-Series

Mon Nov 23, 2015 5:35 am

I think BBD and Pratt seem to have built a stellar airplane but the marketing people and product planning people didn't do their jobs. Kind of an A380 situation. All that money spent without studying how to make it back in real life. Yikes.
 
B777LRF
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Joined: Sun Nov 02, 2008 4:23 am

RE: More Depressing News For C-Series

Mon Nov 23, 2015 6:42 am

Quoting jetblastdubai (Reply 29):
The one big thing going for BBD is the SCOPE clause. If UA really needs/wants to get more passenger-friendly 76-seaters in the regional fleet and reduce the dependence on the 50-seaters, they need to acquire a mainline plane that is NOT in the 737/A320 family.

Whether the 73G or A319 is more capable or not, ALPA has tied the hands of the company when it comes to adding more comfortable 76-seaters. It's a CS100 or E190 family or nothing.

There's far more to global aviation than scope clauses at US based airlines. I'm not saying scope clauses have done anything good for the CS, but that's very far from being the core reason why it hasn't sold in e.g. Europe. No, the reason is cost and revenue potential, particularly compared to the 73G and A319.
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deltadawg
Posts: 1013
Joined: Sat May 13, 2006 2:56 am

RE: More Depressing News For C-Series

Mon Nov 23, 2015 7:01 am

All this talk of similar aircraft and timing affecting the sales of the CSeries makes me wonder if the CSeries would have ever even gotten off the ground had Fairchild Dornier had been able to stay in business and get their 728 in the air? They had some 50-60 orders just from LH (which may have ended up at Swiss) and I also remember KE and UX looking at it seriously. Had the 728 come forth along with the proposed 928 and perhaps even the 717-300 Boeing had considered either the CSeries would have never gotten off the drawing board or it would have never garnered as many orders as it has now. That being said, the marketplace at this time is crowded and it is a dog eat dog world. However, I personally hope the CSeries makes it and look forward to one of the American big four ordering it hopefully. Personally, i think DL will eventually order up to 100 of them to replace the 717's or at least one can hope.


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Andy33
Posts: 2474
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RE: More Depressing News For C-Series

Mon Nov 23, 2015 7:29 am

Quoting UA444 (Reply 40):
Only the Embarer and Mitsubishi will be competition in any 1st world country.

When did Ireland stop being in the 1st world then?
Cityjet have 15 SS100 on order for delivery next year and in 2017, plus 10 options.
 
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Siren
Posts: 774
Joined: Sun Aug 20, 2006 6:50 am

RE: More Depressing News For C-Series

Mon Nov 23, 2015 7:32 am

Quoting UA444 (Reply 40):
Only the Embarer and Mitsubishi will be competition in any 1st world country.

I guess that's why Cityjet is taking delivery of SSJs starting in March, to be certified for LCY.  

[Edited 2015-11-22 23:34:18]
 
tozairport
Posts: 467
Joined: Thu Oct 20, 2005 1:01 am

RE: More Depressing News For C-Series

Mon Nov 23, 2015 7:58 am

Quoting CXH (Reply 5):
United is trying to get major scope clause changes in their union contracts with their pilots. Apparently they have told the union they would buy 100 CSeries or E2 jets or similar (100+ seat) planes if they agreed to lower wages for pilots flying those planes.
It will take many months or longer to see if such an offer is actually acceptable to the pilots.

WTH are you talking about? That is exactly the opposite of what is being agreed upon. Please post accurate information. Scope IS NOT on the table for discussion.
Meet the new boss, same as the old boss.
 
Amiga500
Posts: 2340
Joined: Tue Mar 03, 2015 8:22 am

RE: More Depressing News For C-Series

Mon Nov 23, 2015 9:46 am

Quoting Andy33 (Reply 44):
When did Ireland stop being in the 1st world then?

Have you driven on the roads in the north?

Have you seen our corrupt f__kwit "politicans"?

Might not be 3rd world, but wouldn't call us 1st world either.
 
CRJ900
Posts: 2354
Joined: Wed Jun 02, 2004 2:48 am

RE: More Depressing News For C-Series

Mon Nov 23, 2015 2:17 pm

I think the CS300 will be attractive to airlines if they can have 141-150 seats with 2-3 classes (F/Y+/Y), that is full capacity with only three FAs.

Seat manufacturers Zodiac, Expliseat etc already have economy seats certified for 27 inch pitch. I don't think any airline will install seats at 27 inch pitch, but at 28-29 inches these seats will offer decent legroom equivalent of 30 inch pitch spacing, which means more seat rows can be added.

Quality carrier SWISS has reconfigured the Airbus fleet with 180 seats in the A320 and 217 seats in the A321, we're talking 28-29 inch pitch here. The SWISS CS100 will have 125 seats at 30 inch pitch, one inch more than A320/A321 seats. The SWISS CS300 will have 145-148 seats at 30 inch pitch, 7-10 seats more than the A319.

I think Lufthansa Group is the one to watch, they have ordered plenty of A320 and A321 lately, but no more A319. IIRC LH Group took options on a further 30 CSeries when they ordered 30 for SWISS, and I can see the CS300 as an excellent replacement for A319 and B733 across the LH Group.
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JHwk
Posts: 564
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RE: More Depressing News For C-Series

Mon Nov 23, 2015 2:39 pm

If the CSeries can survive fro another 7 years or so, it will be very successful long-term. Airbus is optimized at the 321, Boeing at the 738, leaving a competitive spot where BBD can excel. It might only get 10% of the market, but that is still a lot of planes.

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