Please continue posting your updates here.

Oregon Aviation Thread - Part 9 (by KarelXWB Sep 15 2015 in Civil Aviation)

From previous response, Empire did PDX-AST-HQM-SEA, AST-SEA(sat only) as well as OLM-PDX for a short time summer 1993 as a stand alone operation. I would assume that the local communities ponied up money for this, but have no idea.
Seems like odd additions for an at-risk operation. It didn't last long at all. Soon back to COE-LWS-BOI only.

Alaska for the past few years has always announced new PDX service around end of November, early December due to start with the summer schedule. If this trend continues we should expect an announcement fairly soon. What do you think AS might add from PDX come this announcement?

I could see PDX-DEN returning, maybe new PDX-SAT?

The Port of Portland released stats for Port operated airports (which include PDX) today for October 2015. International carrier data found below:

Condor:......................Total Pax:...920 .......No. Flts:....4......Avg Pax/Flt: 230............LF:...91.06%
Icelandair:..................Total Pax:...1,626.......No. Flts:....12......Avg Pax/Flt: 135.5............LF:...74.04%
Volaris:......................Total Pax:...3,179.......No. Flts:....26......Avg Pax/Flt: 122.27.............LF:...70.27%

-Passenger count is up YTD 5.0% with 14,049,676 YTD October 2015 and 13,379,386 October 2014.
-Passenger traffic is up 9.4% October 2015 over October 2014 with 1,460,899 and 1,335,908 respectively.

Average passenger count on all flights in: 100.85
Average passenger count on all flights out: 101.28

International Passenger Traffic is found below:

Total International :.........2015:.....47,764 ..........2014:......41,475 .....%Chg:.....15.2%
Total Enplaned:...............2015:.....23,612 ..........2014:......20,556 ....%Chg:......14.9%
Total Deplaned:...............2015:.....24,152 ..........2014:......20,919 ....%Chg:......15.5%

Other airline figures:*
-Air Canada (Jazz):........ 4.1% change in passenger numbers YTD
-Alaska :........................18.3% change in passenger numbers YTD
-American :.................. 10.8% change in passenger numbers YTD
-Condor:....................... 100.0% change in passenger numbers YTD
-Delta :......................... 23.9% change in passenger numbers YTD
-Frontier:...................... -9.6% change in passenger numbers YTD
-Hawaiian:.................... 10.4% change in passenger numbers YTD
-Horizon :....................... 3.5% change in passenger numbers YTD
-Icelandair:................... 100.0% change in passenger numbers YTD
-JetBlue :...................... 3.5% change in passenger numbers YTD
-PenAir:......................... 100.0% change in passenger numbers YTD
-SeaPort:...................... 20.4% change in passenger numbers YTD
-Southwest :................. 13.2% change in passenger numbers YTD
-Spirit:.......................... -26.1% change in passenger numbers YTD
-United:......................... 2.6% change in passenger numbers YTD
-Virgin America :............ 16.2% change in passenger numbers YTD
-Volaris:......................... 73.8% change in passenger numbers YTD

*SkyWest, Compass, & Charter (i.e. Allegiant, Sun Country) omitted from analysis

PDX Flight operations saw a 3.5% increase with Military Operations decreasing by -15.4% and General Aviation decreasing -4.1%.

Also, outside of PDX, Troutdale Airport saw a 19.5% change in operations YTD, while Hillsboro saw a -27.4% change .

Source: http://www.portofportland.com/Aviation_Stat.aspx

http://www.mailtribune.com/article/20151123/NEWS/151129904

More on TSA's decision not to provide screening at Klamath Falls.

Hawaiian at 96% LF, not bad. They have consistently improved their LF eversince they switched to the A330. Wouldn't be surprised to see them add back PDX-OGG soon.

Quoting ANA787 (Reply 5): Hawaiian at 96% LF, not bad. They have consistently improved their LF eversince they switched to the A330. Wouldn't be surprised to see them add back PDX-OGG soon.

Hawaiian has been pretty consistent with their load factors out of PDX lately in the mid 90 percentile. OGG would be very welcome, and would be great to have two HA A330's on the ground each night at PDX, but I wonder if they're waiting for the A321NEOs to come online?

Alaska is killing the PDX-OGG market as it is.

From the previous thread, I believe Pacific Air (???) flew PDX-CVO very briefly in the mid to late '90's. They operated out of E6, in the same downstairs area as UAX.

Any idea on what is causing the swings in traffic at HIO & TTD?

Quoting nwaesc (Reply 7): Any idea on what is causing the swings in traffic at HIO & TTD?

Hillsboro Aero Academy has seen a dramatic increase in flight training at Troutdale and I suspect that HAA is spreading out the training amongst Hillsboro, Troutdale, and Prineville to alleviate the load on HIO. Other than that, corporate traffic hasn't changed all that much out of TTD and corporate traffic seems to be about the same at HIO as well.

Quoting Airnerd (Reply 4): More on TSA's decision not to provide screening at Klamath Falls.

What a joke. I like how they say if you get your pax loads consistent.... Well they are zero now, so that makes a lot of sense. Government sense I guess.
I wonder how many EAS locations with TSA have 2 pax/day lol. I don't see how TSA should dictate who does and doesn't get screening. As an airport able to get federal funds, I don't see why they get rebuffed from a federal operation.
Stupid IMO.

Quoting nwaesc (Reply 7): From the previous thread, I believe Pacific Air (???) flew PDX-CVO very briefly in the mid to late '90's. They operated out of E6, in the same downstairs area as UAX.

Yes I remember them from 1992?ish

Quoting flyoregon (Reply 6): Alaska is killing the PDX-OGG market as it is.

2 non-stops a day & no competition & Maui is number one with many of those in my circle, many have condos they bought in the 70's & 80's. HA would be wise to enter the market with the 321's when they come along.

Quoting nwaesc (Reply 7): From the previous thread, I believe Pacific Air (???) flew PDX-CVO very briefly in the mid to late '90's. They operated out of E6, in the same downstairs area as UAX

Thanks, I will check it out & add when confirmed.

Quoting mtnwest1979 (Reply 9): I wonder how many EAS locations with TSA have 2 pax/day lol. I don't see how TSA should dictate who does and doesn't get screening. As an airport able to get federal funds, I don't see why they get rebuffed from a federal operation. Stupid IMO

      I know this happens for sure little tiny 2 passengers a day station has TSA, while a regional airport like LMT can't get even 2-3 agents to staff it. Pure rubbish & a wonderful example of how broken our system is.

Quoting mtnwest1979 (Reply 9): What a joke. I like how they say if you get your pax loads consistent.... Well they are zero now, so that makes a lot of sense. Government sense I guess.

Quoting RWA380 (Reply 10): Pure rubbish & a wonderful example of how broken our system is.

"We won't give you any TSA agents because you don't have any flights."
"You can't have any flights because you don't have any TSA agents."
Typical government run-around.

Quoting ANA787 (Reply 5):

How do you get the above reply to show the text? Anyway, was just going to add that HA26 is full tomorrow night and it's not even high season....especially coming to PDX. Hope they add OGG too....but on the 332!

Quoting pdx (Reply 12): How do you get the above reply to show the text?

Just highlight the text you wish to quote off of & then hit the "Selected Text Quoted" button on top of that reply & it'll display it in the reply box & you can write underneath it.

Quoting pdx (Reply 12): Anyway, was just going to add that HA26 is full tomorrow night and it's not even high season

No surprise, the secret is long out that this is the time of year to go to Hawaii. Those that are retired like myself, or those with flexible work schedules & no kids, go in the off season months of OCT & NOV & those two weeks between Thanksgiving & Christmas. We'll be going next November again.

Quoting pdx (Reply 12): Hope they add OGG too....but on the 332!

I'd love to see HA add OGG as well, I like their F better & I go to Maui yearly. I'd love the route to go to the 332 as well, I can't wait to try the new F offering coming to the 332 fleet.

I doubt the flight could be year around with the 332, if it went to a 332 I'd expect that to be only seasonal. But year around on the 321 should work fine for the PDX market to begin with at least.

It remains to be seen as to what the F seat will be like on the 321's, so before I decide what I'd want, I'll have to try it all out. If the 321 seats are like what HA has now, I'd connect in HNL to the 332 vs going n/s on the 321.

Quoting RWA380 (Reply 13): Just highlight the text you wish to quote off of & then hit the "Selected Text Quoted" button on top of that reply & it'll display it in the reply box & you can write underneath it.

Thanks so much! There's info about HA's new F seat on their homepage...right now. I assume the 321 would go to OGG. It would be cool to see both aircraft at PDX I guess. It just seems wrong to fly to the islands on a single aisle plane! My first trip was on a UA 747 in the early 80's with macadamia nuts, teriyaki chicken, crew Hawaiian uniforms, and a narrative on the islands as we approached Oahu by a flight attendant...in coach!

A few thoughts on PDX-YYZ...

First and foremost, awesome to see AC fly to YYZ! Two of my favourite cities, and I'm always in favour of more service between Canada and the US. I live in the PNW and travel bi-monthly to PDX/OTH so this doesn't directly affect me but I'm still happy to see AC have more of a presence in PDX.

With that being said, a few things I've noted that make me skeptical...
- I don't see very much tourist traffic using this flight. Europeans can go directly to PDX rather than via YYZ or vice versa, Asian tourists flying into PDX are coming in almost exclusively on Delta, which isn't a Star Alliance partner and is a direct competitor of AC, and PDX isn't a typical Canadian tourist destination because it isn't known for its sun/sand (haha) or for being a major ski resort area in the same way that Denver and SLC are, even though there certainly is skiing nearby.

I base this on the following:
- Almost all international traffic into PDX is either from Europe or Asia via a select few carriers, all of which are competitors of AC, so there won't be any codesharing or easy transfers. Sure, someome coming from Tokyo on Delta could buy a separate ticket to go PDX-YYZ, but it's a lot easier to fly into SEA on All Nippon and use the Star Alliance connection to codeshare from there to YYZ on AC. If this was very popular, AC would be flying more than one daily E90 from SEA-YYZ, which it hasn't changed in years.

- The only real Star Alliance partner in PDX is UA/UAX, and UA/UAX is a shadow of its former self at PDX. Most on here will agree that United has significantly curtailed its PDX service in recent years. When I lived in Oregon as a kid in the 80's and then visited family there in the 90's and 2000's, there was a significant UAX turboprop presence at PDX that connected it with many smaller PNW airports. The combination of Skywest's retirement of its EMB-120's and UA's overall decline at PDX means this is no longer the case, so I don't see a lot of Canadians flying into PDX to connect to the rest of the PNW on AC. if they're going to go somewhere like Eugene or Pasco, they'll fly on American/Delta into PDX or SEA and then connect on QX, since they all have interline/codesharing agreements, which AC does not.

- YYZ is an enormous airport with a LOT of international service, including non-stop to Asia by both AC and Asian airlines. People aren't going to go through PDX (or even SEA, which is probably why it's still an E90). YVR also has extremely strong Asian traffic. If Canadians/Asians flying on AC or Star Alliance carriers are going to go through the US at all to get between YYZ and Asia, it's going to be through SFO or LAX.

- Has anyone here looked at the exchange rate recently? It's terrible for Canadians right now, and incredibly expensive for us to travel to/through the US. Compare prices and adjust for the exchange rate and you'll notice that flights from Canada overseas are significantly cheaper than flights from the US to the same overseas destination. Right now YVR in particular is being flooded with cheap AC flights to Asia that are significantly less expensive than going via the US. In fact, visiting the US has become so expensive the last year or two that most of my friends here are going to Mexico and Cuba instead of the US for sun/sand and staying local/domestic for skiing.

- Reviewing the announcement (http://news.yahoo.com/air-canada-unveils-major-expansion-120100722.html), most of the new services from Canada are to either warmer destinations for snowbirds (Phoenix, San Diego, Jacksonville, San Jose), ski destinations (Salt Lake City, Denver) or major Star Alliance hubs (SFO, Houston, Washington Dulles). Portland isn't a major ski destination, a sun/sand destination or a major star alliance hub, so AC must see something else, but I'm pretty sure it isn't simply that PDX has had an increase in international traffic given that it's still small compared to SEA and not from Star Alliance partners, and AC hasn't upgrades its YYZ-SEA service in a long time.

So, I don't mean to sound skeptical, but if this route is marginally profitable at best at SEA (as evidenced by it being a single E90 flight every day for the last few years), despite SEA's significantly larger Asian/international traffic and size, I don't see it lasting and I predict it will go away again just as it has in the past. AC is making record profits and I applaud their attempts to expand and re-introduce service to places like PDX but I just don't see it lasting more than a year or two.

Quoting tomcbaker (Reply 15): A few thoughts on PDX-YYZ...

I'm not sure if others agree, but I find AC is usually very competitive both time and price wise for PDX-Europe itineraries. I've done several trips with them from PDX to Europe, with transfers in either Vancouver or Calgary - now Toronto, with even more connecting options. The vast majority of passengers traveling from PDX to Europe are going to change planes at least once or twice to reach their chosen destinations - YYZ is as good as many other choices to make that transfer. I suspect the main users of this flight will be for travel between PDX and a combination of Ontario and eastern Canada, and Europe. It's true that the dissolution of the UAX feed into PDX will have some negative impact on the route's performance.

Quoting pdx (Reply 14): Thanks so much!

Absolutely, most everyone that participates in this thread is a nice person with no axe to grind. There are a few that refuse to ever reply to my remaks, but that's my peace to enjoy.

Quoting pdx (Reply 14): There's info about HA's new F seat on their homepage...right now

There is a thread that was posted not too long ago about HA's process from choosing the color palate to the design of the seats themselves. HA is really trying to compete with their rivals head to head.

Quoting pdx (Reply 14): I assume the 321 would go to OGG. It would be cool to see both aircraft at PDX I guess.

I liked seeing the two HA 767's sitting next to eaxh other at the end of D, it's really a pretty livery.

Quoting pdx (Reply 14): It just seems wrong to fly to the islands on a single aisle plane! My first trip was on a UA 747 in the early 80's with macadamia nuts, teriyaki chicken, crew Hawaiian uniforms, and a narrative on the islands as we approached Oahu by a flight attendant...in coach!

My first trip was on a NW 747 but my second trip was on a narrowbody a DC-8-52 operated by EZ. I have flown just about every type flown to the Islands in the last 35 years.

I find that if you sit in first class, it's a much nicer flight on a smaller aircraft. I take AS 738's all the time.

Quoting tomcbaker (Reply 15): Europeans can go directly to PDX rather than via YYZ or vice versa,

Only if they live in Amsterdam, and this is the only year round European service & Frankfurt or Reykjavik seasonally. There is far more traffic than that heading to/from Europe each day in the City of Roses.

Quoting tomcbaker (Reply 15): Almost all international traffic into PDX is either from Europe or Asia via a select few carriers,

AS carries the most outbound & inbound International travelers at PDX. This is mostly due to their multiple carriers relationships. Delta is second & after that I don't know.

Quoting tomcbaker (Reply 15): Sure, someome coming from Tokyo on Delta could buy a separate ticket to go PDX-YYZ, but it's a lot easier to fly into SEA on All Nippon and use the Star Alliance connection to codeshare from there to YYZ on AC

Even easier is taking the NRT-YYZ non-stop on AC & have no problems with Star Alliance mileage being credited.

Quoting tomcbaker (Reply 15): If this was very popular, AC would be flying more than one daily E90 from SEA-YYZ, which it hasn't changed in years

Given the hassle for gates & space, AC likely finds the E90 the perfect fit for the market. It used to be A-320's.

Quoting tomcbaker (Reply 15): Most on here will agree that United has significantly curtailed its PDX service in recent years.

Over the last 3 decades UA has gone from the choice of the PNW, to a shell of it's former self.

Quoting tomcbaker (Reply 15): YYZ is an enormous airport with a LOT of international service,

And here is your anwer as to why PDX-YYZ makes sense, the options from YYZ are bountiful & Pearson is a much easier transit than JFK , SFO, LAX, ORD, ATL or DFW, IMO.

AC is very competitive on their bulk / wholesale fares to Europe, so they are a nice option especially for those places where AC flies to / from YYZ & other carriers may not even serve or serve directly from North America.

Quoting tomcbaker (Reply 15): AC must see something else,

They have seen it 3 or 4 times now, it comes & goes, I expect it'll stay seasonal for a year or two then be year round.

Quoting RWA380 (Reply 17): Quoting tomcbaker (Reply 15): Europeans can go directly to PDX rather than via YYZ or vice versa, Only if they live in Amsterdam, and this is the only year round European service & Frankfurt or Reykjavik seasonally. There is far more traffic than that heading to/from Europe each day in the City of Roses.

With KLM's presence in AMS, they can live in most of Europe and connect through there to PDX via DL given their code sharing. The Frankfurt and Iceland service is definitely not designed for connections, but AMS is a connection hub in Europe. It's mostly on KL, but that's the case with almost any major European airport (LHR is BA, CDG is AF, etc).

Quoting RWA380 (Reply 17): Quoting tomcbaker (Reply 15): Sure, someome coming from Tokyo on Delta could buy a separate ticket to go PDX-YYZ, but it's a lot easier to fly into SEA on All Nippon and use the Star Alliance connection to codeshare from there to YYZ on AC Even easier is taking the NRT-YYZ non-stop on AC & have no problems with Star Alliance mileage being credited.

True. I think we can all agree that this YYZ-PDX service is not to appeal to Asian travelers coming into PDX.

Quoting RWA380 (Reply 17): Quoting tomcbaker (Reply 15): If this was very popular, AC would be flying more than one daily E90 from SEA-YYZ, which it hasn't changed in years Given the hassle for gates & space, AC likely finds the E90 the perfect fit for the market. It used to be A-320's.

Well, I doubt AC would fly a single daily E90, the smallest aircraft in its fleet, primarily due to gate space and 'hassle' so we'll have to agree to disagree that this is a major contributor. Where I do agree with you is that AC likely found the E90 to be sufficient for demand to/from SEA and the A320 to be too large. I think if demand were greater, AC would increase to 2x daily with the E90 or upgauge the aircraft, and it hasn't done either of those things.

Quoting RWA380 (Reply 17): Quoting tomcbaker (Reply 15): Most on here will agree that United has significantly curtailed its PDX service in recent years. Over the last 3 decades UA has gone from the choice of the PNW, to a shell of it's former self.

Couldn't agree more on this. I lived in Portland 20 years ago and I remember the UA mainline and express presence. One of my favourite things to do was to look for the UAX turboprops parked next to the side of the road right before the curved turn to get to departures/arrivals. I fondly remember the turboprops parked there in the older UAX painscheme in the 80's and 90's. Sad how much they've declined.

Quoting RWA380 (Reply 17): Quoting tomcbaker (Reply 15): YYZ is an enormous airport with a LOT of international service, And here is your anwer as to why PDX-YYZ makes sense, the options from YYZ are bountiful & Pearson is a much easier transit than JFK , SFO, LAX, ORD, ATL or DFW, IMO. AC is very competitive on their bulk / wholesale fares to Europe, so they are a nice option especially for those places where AC flies to / from YYZ & other carriers may not even serve or serve directly from North America.

I do see your point and I think it is a good point, but I remain skeptical because your point is predicated on the idea that AC is going to make this route year-round and long term profitable primarily by catering to Americans in the PDX area who are willing to connect via YYZ on their way to Europe.You're right that AC does offer bargain basement prices and has tried (sometimes successfully, sometimes not) over the last few decades to get American passengers on international routes via Canada.

I remember their heavy marketing to the Charlotte crowd for connections to Europe via YYZ about 15 years ago. But this then presupposes that the main purpose of the YYZ flight is to connect people on to European destinations, and that adds an extra leg in the trip. Example - someone wants to go to Edinburgh, Scotland or Bergen, Norway, from PDX. They can go PDX-AMS-Bergen/Edinburgh via DL and KL, and that's just one connection, in AMS. If they do AC, they'll have to fly PDX-YYZ-FRA-Bergen/Edinburgh since AC doesn't fly to many mid-sized European markets direct and their main European codeshare is with LH. That adds a second connection if they go AC, and potentially quite a few extra hours to the trip.

I don't see this being successful long term unless AC can offer fares so cheap they are able to take the PDX customers away from DL. DL offers a good product and they have been shown in the past to be willing to compete with AC and others. I do think this is great for PDX customers in general because the AC competition will lower DL prices to Europe, but I don't see this being successful long term.

Quoting RWA380 (Reply 17): Quoting tomcbaker (Reply 15): AC must see something else, They have seen it 3 or 4 times now, it comes & goes, I expect it'll stay seasonal for a year or two then be year round.

As I said before, your point/argument is totally valid and I agree with parts of it, but it's predicated on a PDX-area passenger being willing to add an extra connection and potentially quite a few extra hours to their trip if they are going anywhere other than one of the major European cities. AC does fly to most of the large European markets direct from YYZ, but very few of the mid-sized and smaller markets. Is this enough to sustain year-round E90's from PDX? I still doubt it.

Quoting tomcbaker (Reply 15): AC is making record profits and I applaud their attempts to expand and re-introduce service to places like PDX but I just don't see it lasting more than a year or two.

Isn't there tech traffic in Toronto and Ottawa? Portland's tech industry has really grown significantly recently. So between tech, Portland's (and Oregon's) increased profile as a destination, local traffic, and some domestic connections onward via Toronto, I think this the flight could work. They aren't trying to fill a heavy.

Quoting BigGSFO (Reply 19): Isn't there tech traffic in Toronto and Ottawa? Portland's tech industry has really grown significantly recently. So between tech, Portland's (and Oregon's) increased profile as a destination, local traffic, and some domestic connections onward via Toronto, I think this the flight could work. They aren't trying to fill a heavy.

There is, most notably Intel, which has a campus in the Portland area. I'm no Portland/PDX hater (far from it - I love the area and the airport is one of my favourites). I'm just speaking my mind on here.

I don't know how much tech traffic there is, but it's likely substantially less than SEA, which is not only a bigger metro area, but also has arguably the largest tech sector in the PNW what with Microsoft, Amazon (and its subsidiaries/affiliates like Blue Origin), Open Market, etc. I always viewed Vancouver as being the movie capital of the PNW, SEA being the tech capital of the PNW, and PDX being the hipster capital (of North America, not just the PNW)   All joking aside, I'm sure there's tech traffic, but I never imagined it was that much. If the tech traffic and tourism in Seattle isn't enough to sustain more than a 1x daily E90 between YYZ-SEA, this is why I have trouble seeing it work in PDX.

As to your other points, I think YYZ is a slightly bigger destination than PDX, but I also think economics, and right now, PDX isn't a huge destination for Canadians that far away. The exchange rate is terrible - add an extra 25-30% to prices if you are a Canadian visiting the US, making it VERY expensive right now for us. Canadians will always go to Arizona and Florida in the winter and to Colorado and Utah to ski, but as someone who lived in Toronto for a few years, I never once heard about PDX on anyone's radar. I think if anything, it'll be the other way around - YYZ is more of a tourist destination for PDX'ers than vice versa. With that being said, is it enough if it isn't doing well enough to expand or upgauge in SEA? Not sure.

Quoting tomcbaker (Reply 20): There is, most notably Intel, which has a campus in the Portland area. I'm no Portland/PDX hater (far from it - I love the area and the airport is one of my favourites). I'm just speaking my mind on here.

Not to split hairs here, but Intel has more than just a campus, they virtually are the City of Hillsboro. Hillsboro is home to more Intel employees than anywhere else in the world I believe.

Quoting tomcbaker (Reply 20): Canadians will always go to Arizona and Florida in the winter and to Colorado and Utah to ski

They don't go to Banff or Whistler? If they went to Utah, wouldn't there be more than just YYC and YVR from SLC before now?

[Edited 2015-11-25 10:05:19]

Quoting flyoregon (Reply 21): They don't go to Banff or Whistler? If they went to Utah, wouldn't there be more than just YYC and YVR from SLC before now?

I never said SLC/DEN were more popular for Canadians than domestic ski/snowboard destinations, I just said that there will always be traffic to the states from Canada for this, just as there is to the sun/sand destinations. Skiing and sun/sand are tourist industries that tend to be 'evergeen' in Canada. Whistler, Banff, all of the good ski areas in Quebec, even Mt Washington on Vancouver island, are very popular with Canadians. Particularly right now as we're coming out of our own recession and our exchange rate with the U.S. is the worst its been in a decade (and not just by a small amount - we were at parity two years ago and now we're about 30% less).

However, rest assured that there is winter service between SLC/Colorado and Canada due in part because of the popularity of skiing and snowboarding in Canada. For those who can afford to try international slopes, it offers a nearby alternative that is still different than Banff/Whistler. I personally am fascinated by Utah for example - many Canadians view the trip to Utah or Idaho to ski as being worth it simply for the bonus of being able to see an area of the US that we view with a lot of curiosity, politically/culturally.

But yes, right now in particular with our economy, I'd say more Canadians are staying home to ski than going to the US.

[Edited 2015-11-25 10:21:35]

[Edited 2015-11-25 10:22:17]

Quoting tomcbaker (Reply 22): I never said SLC/DEN were more popular for Canadians than domestic ski/snowboard destinations, I just said that there will always be traffic to the states from Canada for this, just as there is to the sun/sand destinations. Skiing and sun/sand are tourist industries that tend to be 'evergeen' in Canada. Whistler, Banff, all of the good ski areas in Quebec, even Mt Washington on Vancouver island, are very popular with Canadians. Particularly right now as we're coming out of our own recession and our exchange rate with the U.S. is the worst its been in a decade (and not just by a small amount - we were at parity two years ago and now we're about 30% less). However, rest assured that there is winter service between SLC/Colorado and Canada due in part because of the popularity of skiing and snowboarding in Canada. For those who can afford to try international slopes, it offers a nearby alternative that is still different than Banff/Whistler. I personally am fascinated by Utah for example - many Canadians view the trip to Utah or Idaho to ski as being worth it simply for the bonus of being able to see an area of the US that we view with a lot of curiosity, politically/culturally. But yes, right now in particular with our economy, I'd say more Canadians are staying home to ski than going to the US.

I wasn't challenging you on it, I was honestly curious. Sorry if it read that way.

Quoting flyoregon (Reply 23): I wasn't challenging you on it, I was honestly curious. Sorry if it read that way.

Hey no worries, I tend to have long winded responses (the downside of having been an English major in uni) so I apologize for my long replies. And I certainly don't mean to imply anything negative or use satire when stating that we find Utah/Idaho to be an interesting region. No offence intended - I think it's just that the politics and some of the culture there (and in the American south/southwest in general) is so different from our own (again, not implying this is good or bad), that it has always been curious for us. In the same way Germans love to travel to the American southwest and watch western/cowboy movies - we just don't have it where we're from (although Alberta shares some similarities with the American south/sw as far as its cowboy history and oil industry).

AC also just recently announced YVR-DUB, and YVR is my home airport. In another thread, I just mentioned that my wife got an email today about fares from Victoria (YYJ) to Beijing r/t (tax included) for under $800 CAD and from Victoria/YYJ to Dubai r/t for $1,000 CAD. $800 CAD is $601 USD at the current exchange rate. So, someone in Seattle or Bellingham or Port Angeles can go up to YVR or YYJ and then fly r/t, tax included, to Beijing for only $601. I've never seen AC fares this cheap, but it illustrates what I (and others) have said on here about the tables turning due to exchange rates; it's now MUCH cheaper for us to fly abroad from domestic airports like YVR and YYZ rather than to drive down to the US to fly overseas (which was common from 2005-2014, when the exchange rate was better). It also illustrates how cheap it is for Americans to fly overseas via Canada at the moment.

No doubt, there will be some very competitive fares for people to fly abroad from PDX via Canada on AC once this service starts.

Quoting tomcbaker (Reply 20): With that being said, is it enough if it isn't doing well enough to expand or upgauge in SEA? Not sure.

SEA and PDX are different markets, so the success of one over the other is not exclusive. But you are right - who knows the outcome. The strategic team at AC seems to think it's worth the investment, so they feel like trying it again.

Also I am wondering what kind of loyalty base UA (and by extension AC) has left in the Portland area. Obviously AS still has the greatest number of frequent flyers, but perhaps there's a decent enough number of loyal Star travelers to help support this flight.

Quoting tomcbaker (Reply 20): PDX being the hipster capital (of North America, not just the PNW)

Hah hah well I would have agreed with you two years on this statement (and I live here) but that's quickly changing with the influx of new residents and jobs. However, a lot of those hipsters have money and there might be some really good vintage deals and trendy breweries in Toronto....so....
 

Quoting BigGSFO (Reply 26): SEA and PDX are different markets, so the success of one over the other is not exclusive. But you are right - who knows the outcome. The strategic team at AC seems to think it's worth the investment, so they feel like trying it again. Also I am wondering what kind of loyalty base UA (and by extension AC) has left in the Portland area. Obviously AS still has the greatest number of frequent flyers, but perhaps there's a decent enough number of loyal Star travelers to help support this flight.

All very good points. SEA and PDX definitely are not the same, just like YVR and SEA/PDX aren't the same. People always expect them to be since we share the same region. Americans from the east/midwest have expressed to me on several occasions how surprised they were at the substantial differences culturally, demographically and politically between Vancouver and Seattle. So, point taken.

Interesting idea about the remnants of UA's customer base. I myself was a UA customer when I lived in the PDX area 20 years ago, as was my family that continues to live in the area (they've since switched to AS loyalty). I work in the aviation industry and I tend to non-rev when/where possible so I don't really have a loyalty. With that being said, I still have a bit of nostalgic loyalty to UA. I've spent most of my life in the PNW, with a few years in New England and eastern Canada, and UA has similarly disappeared from northern New England; last time I lived there, they had mainline flights from ORD to BTV and MHT and all of that has disappeared over the last 5-6 years. It's not just the PNW that UA has abandoned.

Quoting BigGSFO (Reply 26): Hah hah well I would have agreed with you two years on this statement (and I live here) but that's quickly changing with the influx of new residents and jobs. However, a lot of those hipsters have money and there might be some really good vintage deals and trendy breweries in Toronto....so....

It's true. I was recently at Sizzle Pie on East Burnside and while I could throw a rock and hit 30 hipsters, most of them appeared to be upper middle class neo-hipsters who were wearing oversized, fake emo/hipster glasses (with no lens, just the frames - only time I've ever seen that was in Portland), wearing Patagonia ("Patagucci")/Arc Teryx/REI (I guess Columbia is no longer cool) and driving Audis, Fiats and new Subarus. Comparing when I lived there in the 90's, Portland seems to go through serious shifts every 5-10 years.

[Edited 2015-11-25 12:24:26]

Quoting tomcbaker (Reply 27): It's true. I was recently at Sizzle Pie on East Burnside and while I could throw a rock and hit 30 hipsters, most of them appeared to be upper middle class neo-hipsters who were wearing oversized, fake emo/hipster glasses (with no lens, just the frames - only time I've ever seen that was in Portland), wearing Patagonia ("Patagucci")/Arc Teryx/REI (I guess Columbia is no longer cool) and driving Audis, Fiats and new Subarus. Comparing when I lived there in the 90's, Portland seems to go through serious shifts every 5-10 years.

You saw hipsters driving Audis?! They must be posers  

Every "true" hipster I see is in a Volvo, Subaru, or Prius. Perhaps one day it will shift into a culture where the common cars are Astons and Jag F-Types. Alas, the cars of today will just grow older and occupy the 7 parking spots left in and around the city.

Quoting tomcbaker (Reply 18): True. I think we can all agree that this YYZ-PDX service is not to appeal to Asian travelers coming into PDX.

Yes we can agree on that indeed.

Quoting tomcbaker (Reply 18): Well, I doubt AC would fly a single daily E90, the smallest aircraft in its fleet, primarily due to gate space and 'hassle' so we'll have to agree to disagree that this is a major contributor.

I agree that SEA nor PDX is a major contribution to the AC world, but markets they can't ignore either.

Quoting tomcbaker (Reply 18): As I said before, your point/argument is totally valid and I agree with parts of it, but it's predicated on a PDX-area passenger being willing to add an extra connection and potentially quite a few extra hours to their trip if they are going anywhere other than one of the major European cities.

After so many years of selling tickets, most leisure travelers to Europe are going to bigger cities first anyway, just to get better fares. Most plan to take Eurail from there. This flight also gives UA loyal flyer another option vs EWR, IAH or SFO.
IMO, Pearson is way better of a place to connect than any of those other airports.

Quoting tomcbaker (Reply 18): Is this enough to sustain year-round E90's from PDX? I still doubt it.

As I said I think it'll be seasonal for at least 2 years before having a chance of going year round, but what do I know?

Quoting BigGSFO (Reply 19): Isn't there tech traffic in Toronto and Ottawa? Portland's tech industry has really grown significantly recently. So between tech, Portland's (and Oregon's) increased profile as a destination, local traffic, and some domestic connections onward via Toronto, I think this the flight could work. They aren't trying to fill a heavy.

Quoting tomcbaker (Reply 20): I don't know how much tech traffic there is, but it's likely substantially less than SEA,

Don't bet on it, Intel is heavily invested in Hillsboro & surrounding Washington County, I know I live just off Hwy 26 & 185th. There are several BIG construction projects going on nearby.

Yes Microsoft is huge & has many employees traveling, but the combination of Intel & all the supporting high tech companies out in this area, combined with IBM in Willsonville where they design their printers.

While the area around me builds up with freshly built small mansions on postage stamp lots & half of the residents are high tech sector employees, we have had unprecedented growth in this sector & housing prices are reflecting the influx in income by pricing people right out of their homes (if they rent).

In addition Nike is vastly expanding their campuses currently with two big projects happening on their main campus, Subaru is building their very first parts distribution center outside of Japan right here in East County Portland.

Quoting tomcbaker (Reply 20): YYZ is more of a tourist destination for PDX'ers than vice versa.

I'd agree with that, I've gone to Toronto a few times, a great place to have a good time, I'd go again in a heartbeat.

Quoting tomcbaker (Reply 27): wearing Patagonia ("Patagucci")/Arc Teryx/REI (I guess Columbia is no longer cool) and driving Audis, Fiats and new Subarus.

Columbia is huge here still, but with those trying to make a statement then REI is the name to have. Their main store was 2 blocks away when I lived Downtown, but I'm too Scottish for those prices.

Alaska added a scheduled OKC-PDX leg this evening via Skywest Emb-175...........

Another rare visitor to MFR this week was a World Atlantic MD-83, transporting the Southern Oregon University football team.

Quoting BigGSFO (Reply 26): SEA and PDX are different markets, so the success of one over the other is not exclusive. But you are right - who knows the outcome. The strategic team at AC seems to think it's worth the investment, so they feel like trying it again.

Quoting tomcbaker (Reply 27): All very good points. SEA and PDX definitely are not the same, just like YVR and SEA/PDX aren't the same.

In terms of two different cities, yes, Portland and Seattle are quite separate and different. However, and let's not forget this, they might be the closest thing to the hypothetical two separate cities being one single air market. The massive frequency of AS/QX and now DL between the two cities has created a near-continuous air bridge. They are a hundred miles closer than Dallas-Houston which is probably the next closest instance. AS (and to a lesser extent DL) can easily treat PDX and SEA as one market by fluctuating lift and fares between the two, artificially controlling how much connecting traffic one hub flows across the other. It really is a fascinating idea.

Quoting flyoregon (Reply 28): Every "true" hipster I see is in a Volvo, Subaru, or Prius. Perhaps one day it will shift into a culture where the common cars are Astons and Jag F-Types.

The "real," "where young people go to retire" Portland hipsters are well on their way to being pushed out by affluent, tech-degree holding immigrants from other parts of the country who are taking advantage of the well-paying jobs sprouting up everywhere in the metro. Keep in mind Portland attracts a certain type of personality and many of them do indeed have postgrad degrees, and they can certainly fit in the local lifestyle while also enjoying their paychecks.

Quoting RWA380 (Reply 29): Don't bet on it, Intel is heavily invested in Hillsboro & surrounding Washington County, I know I live just off Hwy 26 & 185th. There are several BIG construction projects going on nearby. Yes Microsoft is huge & has many employees traveling, but the combination of Intel & all the supporting high tech companies out in this area, combined with IBM in Willsonville where they design their printers.

I grew up in the Portland area and now live in Seattle, and while the Portland tech scene is nothing to sneeze at, it absolutely is much smaller than the tech presence in Seattle. Intel is huge, no doubt about that, but whereas the tech industry in Portland centers around the physical aspects of the industry, chips and processors etc, Seattle is more focused on programming and applications. For instance, Microsoft, Amazon, Expedia, Nintendo, the first U.S. office for Alibaba if I'm not mistaken, among a myriad of others and I would also certainly include Boeing on the list with all its engineering. Amazon now occupies something like 30% of the office space in downtown Seattle. That's pure insanity. Microsoft might be the biggest name but in reality they are old news in the Seattle metro.

Is Seattle fogged in? There seem to be a few diversion to PDX this evening.......

Quoting lhpdx (Reply 33): Is Seattle fogged in? There seem to be a few diversion to PDX this evening.......

Dense fog advisory is out tonight - I'm not at the airport at the moment but early morning today was quite foggy and freezing fog, at that. More of the same tonight. Lots of deicing going on with the RON aircraft.

Quoting HPRamper (Reply 32): I grew up in the Portland area and now live in Seattle, and while the Portland tech scene is nothing to sneeze at, it absolutely is much smaller than the tech presence in Seattle. Intel is huge, no doubt about that, but whereas the tech industry in Portland centers around the physical aspects of the industry, chips and processors etc, Seattle is more focused on programming and applications. For instance, Microsoft, Amazon, Expedia, Nintendo, the first U.S. office for Alibaba if I'm not mistaken, among a myriad of others and I would also certainly include Boeing on the list with all its engineering. Amazon now occupies something like 30% of the office space in downtown Seattle. That's pure insanity. Microsoft might be the biggest name but in reality they are old news in the Seattle metro.

I was stating that Portlands high-tech wasn't "substantially" smaller than Seattle's. But if it's that you disagree with, then all I can tell you, I have a fortunate friend in this industry, she has been head hunted by the hundreds of start ups & that presence is what is garnering Portland more activity in the sector, it's also access to available building sights that aren't far removed from the city itself.

I am in no way suggesting Portland has surpassed or will surpass Seattle in shear size, nor in it's presence in the business arena. What I am suggesting is, Portland is attracting "affluent, tech-degree holding immigrants from other parts of the country" that are pricing people out, with the massive availability of jobs that are coming from billions of dollars of investment from these companies & the large ones like Intel.

I live in one of the Intel inspired neighborhoods & many of my neighbors work at a myriad of these companies, two years ago this was a field with hay growing on it. The housing demand is endless right now with the influx of high paying jobs.

Quoting HPRamper (Reply 32): In terms of two different cities, yes, Portland and Seattle are quite separate and different. However, and let's not forget this, they might be the closest thing to the hypothetical two separate cities being one single air market. The massive frequency of AS/QX and now DL between the two cities has created a near-continuous air bridge.

Indeed SEA has always had a shadow over PDX service wise & likely always will. The one & only thing I can say is, at one time those of us living here in Portland had little choice but to at least stop in Seattle going many directions. Since the 70's & earlier SEA & PDX were often on the same routing, which provided the SEA-PDX market many airlines & types over the years.

When AS really started giving PDX more non-stop options we have become very used to missing SEA to many destinations, when those of us here in Portland are connecting in Seattle it's not because we want to, for myself, I am miserable with a 50 minute dash between N satellite & C concourse during the morning or evening rush times.

Quoting HPRamper (Reply 32): They are a hundred miles closer than Dallas-Houston which is probably the next closest instance.

Our fellow A.net friend SANFan would likely disagree with you, I have to say SAN really does live in the shadow of LAX & much closer than IAH & DFW.

Quoting HPRamper (Reply 32): AS (and to a lesser extent DL) can easily treat PDX and SEA as one market by fluctuating lift and fares between the two, artificially controlling how much connecting traffic one hub flows across the other. It really is a fascinating idea

I agree, AS has a real good opportunity here to use PDX as a bigger connecting hub, allowing the SEA market to have more O/D seats & a better opportunity to bring more passenger traffic via both cities.

Quoting RWA380 (Reply 35): Our fellow A.net friend SANFan would likely disagree with you, I have to say SAN really does live in the shadow of LAX & much closer than IAH & DFW.

SAN-LAX is definitely closer than SEA-PDX, but I don't know what the flight frequency is between the two. I have never heard of anyone mention a SAN-LAX shuttle which is what I was more referring to.

Quoting RWA380 (Reply 35): I am in no way suggesting Portland has surpassed or will surpass Seattle in shear size, nor in it's presence in the business arena.

Nor did I think you were.

I travel a lot between Portland and Seattle and am very, very familiar with the growth in each. The same arguments in favor of one generally go for the other as well - construction cranes are everywhere in both, people are flooding into the city in both, rents are skyrocketing in both, traffic is getting worse in both. Portland's tech community is booming, but Seattle's is as well, at a rate that makes me believe Portland will not be catching up anytime soon if ever unless we see another major bubble burst like what happened in Silicon Valley.
Of course, this is my personal opinion in lieu of any kind of concrete statistics, which I would welcome.

Delta has scheduled a 763 international configuration for PDX-JFK starting this coming summer.

This coming summer 2016 PDX-JFK 3x daily will see: 1x 738, 1x 752, 1x 763

Summer 2015 saw PDX-JFK at 3x daily: 2x 738, 1x 752.

Quite a capacity increase. Delta continues to add PDX capacity year after year. A few mainline additions to PDX-SEA as well as PDX-LAX going all mainline.

Quoting HPRamper (Reply 36): SAN-LAX is definitely closer than SEA-PDX, but I don't know what the flight frequency is between the two. I have never heard of anyone mention a SAN-LAX shuttle which is what I was more referring to.

There sure used to be, but if that is your measure then yes you may be correct. I am, as a passenger never ever going to like switching planes at SEA no matter the frequency. I also can not wait for AS & QX to switch sides at PDX, the little QX corridor down to the tarmac level is very crowded all day long.

Quoting RWA380 (Reply 38): There sure used to be, but if that is your measure then yes you may be correct.

Quoting RWA380 (Reply 38): I am, as a passenger never ever going to like switching planes at SEA no matter the frequency. I also can not wait for AS & QX to switch sides at PDX, the little QX corridor down to the tarmac level is very crowded all day long.

The way growth at SEA is going, for all involved, PDX may be headed down the road toward being a much larger connection point. When planes are being parked on taxiways and/or the inop runway at SEA because of lack of gate space, that's a serious issue. PDX is also a breeze to connect through in comparison.
It's sure going to look a lot different at PDX when that move is completed. What was the time frame on that again? It'll be cool to see QX planes on that ramp that UAX used to occupy.

Quoting HPRamper (Reply 39): What was the time frame on that again?

http://www.oregonlive.com/commuting/...dx_to_expand_terminal_shuffle.html

The whole construction project is supposed to be done sometime in 2017. Could be the airline swap happens before it's completely finished.

Quoting HPRamper (Reply 39): The way growth at SEA is going, for all involved, PDX may be headed down the road toward being a much larger connection point.

AS could easily swap some of the ANC flying to PDX. In the Summer they operate 3-4 flights between 1-3am. All of those people are NOT going to SEA as a final destination.

Southwest will begin nonstop daily PDX-STL next summer according to the most recent schedule release. Anyone know the start date?

http://www.blogsouthwest.com/the-june-2016-schedule-is-now-open/

PDX-STL begins June 5, 2016.

Quoting HPRamper (Reply 39): PDX may be headed down the road toward being a much larger connection point.

I have been touting the connection possibilities on AS/QX via PDX for years. If I was a MFR, EUG or RDM flyer I'd try a PDX connection long before a SEA one, if practical. I know PSC based flyers & they use QX/AS for Hawaii trips via PDX.

Quoting HPRamper (Reply 39): PDX is also a breeze to connect through in comparison.

Agreed & one of the reasons that I fully agree that PDX will become a larger connecting point for AS as they are constrained at SEA & it's close proximity to SEA means that PDX isn't very far away from the travel path of SEA.
Since PDX was rated the #1 airport in the country (again) I agree this is a fine facility & there is room for some growth.

Quoting HPRamper (Reply 39): It'll be cool to see QX planes on that ramp that UAX used to occupy.

I'm looking forward to landing & taking off on the North runway vs South runway that is mostly used by AS/QX. Yes of course there are current AS/QX departures off the North now, it'll just increase the opportunity, I like riding above the river in & out for some reason.

Quoting 32andBelow (Reply 41): AS could easily swap some of the ANC flying to PDX. In the Summer they operate 3-4 flights between 1-3am. All of those people are NOT going to SEA as a final destination

Yes that is true, although many of those travelers are connecting to cities that are not served from PDX n/s. But I agree that there are several places ANC passengers can get to via PDX, DCA, DFW, LAX, SAN, SFO, AUS, STL, MCI, MSP, OMA, LAS, PHX & Hawaii.

Quoting ANA787 (Reply 42): Southwest will begin nonstop daily PDX-STL next summer according to the most recent schedule release. Anyone know the start date?

There should be plenty of PDEW in this market, F9 did very well the one summer they flew it, but they were unchallenged at that time, AS is starting PDX-STL in February & WN now starts in June, I wonder if this is only seasonal for WN?

Quoting RWA380 (Reply 44): There should be plenty of PDEW in this market, F9 did very well the one summer they flew it, but they were unchallenged at that time, AS is starting PDX-STL in February & WN now starts in June, I wonder if this is only seasonal for WN?

AS is already operating daily on PDX-STL.
You are getting confused with AS starting PDX-MCI/OMA/MSP in February.

Quoting ANA787 (Reply 42): Southwest will begin nonstop daily PDX-STL next summer according to the most recent schedule release. Anyone know the start date?

I could have sworn WN already flew PDX-STL, or did sometime in the past. I may be thinking of MCI though.

When TWA/AA flew PDX-STL, what was the frequency? I suspect near the end it was 1x daily, but surely in the TWA heyday it was more than that? I remember around March/April 2001 seeing TWA 757's on the route.

I find it strange that it took this long to reinstate the route on a permanent basis. I know the STL economy wasn't the strongest for several years, but SWA in St. Louis has always been relatively strong. Perhaps they saw PDX-MCI/STL as a tad redundant?

In any case, it's nice to see AS and WN on the route. Miss seeing this though...

Quoting flyoregon (Reply 47): When TWA/AA flew PDX-STL, what was the frequency? I suspect near the end it was 1x daily, but surely in the TWA heyday it was more than that? I remember around March/April 2001 seeing TWA 757's on the route.

In 1999 TWA had four flights to STL and one to ANC from PDX. All were MD-80.

Quoting ANA787 (Reply 45): AS is already operating daily on PDX-STL. You are getting confused with AS starting PDX-MCI/OMA/MSP in February

Yes, thank you, since I fly to both MCI & STL, I got it backwards.

Quoting HPRamper (Reply 46): I could have sworn WN already flew PDX-STL, or did sometime in the past. I may be thinking of MCI though.

Not WN, but yes they have flown PDX-MCI for over a decade. WN has SEA-STL & has for many years.

Quoting flyoregon (Reply 47): When TWA/AA flew PDX-STL, what was the frequency? I suspect near the end it was 1x daily, but surely in the TWA heyday it was more than that? I remember around March/April 2001 seeing TWA 757's on the route

As 910A points out below, TW was up to 4 daily STL flights, during some summers one would upgrade to the 757, the STL-PDX-ANC flight was an overwater M83 & as there were a handful of them in the fleet, it was sometimes a routing nightmare.

One of my best friends worked at PDX for TW & one thing was always sure the L-1011 or later on the 767 from JFK & SEA was always late & the ANC flight was always full in the summer with mail.

Quoting 910A (Reply 48): In 1999 TWA had four flights to STL and one to ANC from PDX. All were MD-80

And one daily widebody to SEA then JFK, which started on an L-1011 & ended up being the 762.