If ever there were a need for a third runway at LHR, this is it. Absolutely desperate times when London has to have the likes of QR and CX going to LGW.

http://www.businesstraveller.com/new...return-to-london-gatwick-with-a350

In short, the A359 will be just the right size and scale to economically offer cheap seats for LGW and bolster the London seats they apparently need. Maybe some BA regulars and OneWorld frequents will find this a reasonable option but it shouldn't be.

On a side note, the A359 could offer economical sense for daily MAN with CX; and new markets to the AB hub of DUS, the IB hub of MAD and new flights to PER or CPH.

Somebody, please, build that runway in West London.

Quoting ndhair37 (Thread starter): new flights to PER

CX already fly to PER 10 times a week and there wont be an increase in the near future as CX is maxed out on frequencies due to the bilateral between HKG and SYD/MEL/BNE and PER.

CX as much as anyone is fully aware the scarcity of LHR slots for the desirable midnight departures ex-HKG / early am arrivals into LHR. They could easily purchase A380s for the LHR route to be used on those key departures and offer more seats in the market that way. They have chosen not to and the consequence is that they will only be able to add seats to LON by operating to LGW (or STN). Ultimately, it is their choice: Buy A380s, Buy additional expensive LHR slots, Don't add seats (raising average fares); or Operate to LGW as well.

I don't agree with this:

Quoting ndhair37 (Thread starter): Absolutely desperate times when London has to have the likes of QR and CX going to LGW

I live near LHR but I can easily see that there is a substantial O&D market better (or equally) served by LGW and I'm sure GIP (LGW's owners) are making airlines attractive offers to add service there. CX aren't being forced or coerced to operate into LGW.

Didnt CX originally operate to LGW 3 decades+ ago when they started London flights?

Higher average fares are in the interests if the carrier, you say that as if it were a bad thing. The fact that there's a substantial number of people who are nearer LGW than LHR and who have substantial wealth to spend makes little difference as LGW is too close to LHR's orbit. It remains more leisure dominated than LHR, and be honest, it's not like airlines don't just keep trying.

Worth mentioning Emirates are downsizing the premium cabin to go Y heavy on their A380 services out of Crawley Intl.
I am not sure I get the rationale as CX only recently got a fifth LHR rotation. Having said that BA are bringing back LGW-JFK and so the wheel turns yet again.

And yes, Cathay did originally operate out of LGW South and later moved North before they got LHR access. They moved out late 93/94?

Doesnt really seem that off, it serves a slightly different group of passengers in the London area market. Kind of like how EWR is more attractive to some wealthy areas and JFK is more attractive to others. Try to get someone from Bergen County NJ to fly out of JFK or someone from Long Island to fly out of EWR its the same thing in London traffic is annoying and unpredictable ie time consuming to be safe. I dont think it seems that bad to serve both airports.

LGW has been rumoured for a while now.

I think CX have LHR covered, and don't need A380 for LHR. They operate 5x daily into LHR, and have 2x daily overnight (early am arrivals into LHR) + on Sunday and Monday morning they have a 3rd overnight early am arrival service.

If CX were absolutely desperate for more LHR slots, they could convert some of their freighter slots to passenger. I think the possible move into LGW is done on purpose, not because they are necessarily completely blocked from more LHR access.

As others have already alluded to, LGW serves a slightly different market to LHR. I assume LGW will provide alternatives for the London O&D market with Sussex etc. and also the possibility to connect to some European BA leisure destinations and even Caribbean destinations at LGW. I think a lot of UK Expats living in HKG live around Sussex, south London areas, so this will be more convenient for those areas.

Having said that, I think this is a risky move. History has proven LHR is more successful for Asian carriers than LGW. Vietnam Airlines, and now Garuda have all switched their services, whilst Air China, Korean Air, Hong Kong Airlines, Oasis etc. have all tried and failed with LGW. Even QR quit, although are also rumoured to be coming back. LGW doesn't have the same yields as LHR - it still is more leisure orientated and LHR serves a larger catchment area for the west and midlands of the UK.

CX seem very smart when launching new routes, and perhaps the economics of the A350 can make this work. It would certainly make them the best option out of London/UK to the heart of Asia serving LHR (5x daily), LGW, and MAN.

I certainly would be excited to see this happen and I hope it works. Marketing and advertising will be important for this, particularly in the market around Crawley who may not be familiar with CX.

Quoting slcdeltarumd11 (Reply 6): Doesnt really seem that off, it serves a slightly different group of passengers in the London area market. Kind of like how EWR is more attractive to some wealthy areas and JFK is more attractive to others. Try to get someone from Bergen County NJ to fly out of JFK or someone from Long Island to fly out of EWR its the same thing in London traffic is annoying and unpredictable ie time consuming to be safe. I dont think it seems that bad to serve both airports.

People always make this assumption and use the JFK/EWR analogy. However LGW does not look like LHR in the same way JFK looks like EWR. It's not the same thing at all. LHR has the overwhelming amount of long haul, whereas LGW has P2P leisure and only Emirates of the ME3. The remainder is short haul P2P leisure, they;re very different in a way JFK and EWR are not. The NYC analogy is geographically driven with EWR and JFK options overlapping in many markets. Not so much the same as LHR vs LGW.

Quoting skipness1E (Reply 8): LGW has P2P leisure and only Emirates of the ME3

They also have Garuda Indonesia, which is not a leisure or charter carrier. It is a full service airline with a host of interline and codeshare agreements with other similar airlines, that actually offers F, J and Y to LGW.

Quoting EddieDude (Reply 8): They also have Garuda Indonesia, which is not a leisure or charter carrier. It is a full service airline with a host of interline and codeshare agreements with other similar airlines, that actually offers F, J and Y to LGW.

Last I heard GA is moving from LGW to LHR next year. This exactly proves the point.

Yup, Garuda, like everyone else in legacy long haul you could mention before them, most recently Vietnam Airlines, are leaving for LHR.

Added to the a.net list of new routes CX is rumored to operating A350s to

Quoting zeke (Reply 11):

I can definitely see the possibility of these happening within the next 5-10 years on A350 or indeed other aircraft. Some are more likely than others.

CHC - A prime A350 destination, and CZ/SQ already successfully fly here. A huge China-NZ market to tap into.

HNL - Its a leisure destination, but if connections to China could be facilitated, it might be a good shot.

GRU (But via an intermediate point) - I think it should happen, its a large economy, admittedly faltering at the moment but its a OW hub.

MEX - Rumoured already, although runway/payload conditions need to be figured out.

MIA (Probably via an intermediate point) - I think this would be very cool, but maybe costly if a stop is involved.

DFW - I am sure CX will want to join AA on HKG-DFW, and in time there should be room for both.

CAI - maybe, but it would depend on stability in the region, but there is probably lots of China demand.

TLV - Rumoured already, and quite an interesting destination - actually a good one as its sheltered from the ME3

AMM - maybe, it would be smart to connect the OW hub of AMM for Middle East/Mediterranean connections, but maybe not enough demand as even RJ goes via BKK. Code sharing with RJ may be the first step, but given CX couldn't even make DOH work (although that being dropped might not just be down to that, but other complicated reasons) AMM is probably a long shot.

BCN - Has a lot of O&D demand to HK and China and would be a natural choice after the recently announced MAD. If they get 5th freedoms maybe they could follow SQ and use it as an intermediary point for S. America.

LGW - Rumoured and discussed in this thread.

HEL - Would be great for Europe connections without back tracking and I think there could be room for both the daily AY and a daily CX.

ARN - May be too late as there may not be room for both SAS and CX.

CPH - should be able to tap into lots of demand from HK/China.

MUC - Business hub

VIE - Lots of interest from China/HK

BER - A future OW hub!

Quoting AA100 (Reply 12):

Rumours knocking around that DUB will be added to that list once EI rejoin OneWorld. Suggestions it'd be via an intermediate point initially

Quoting ndhair37 (Thread starter): If ever there were a need for a third runway at LHR, this is it. Absolutely desperate times when London has to have the likes of QR and CX going to LGW.

I don't know why you think that's such a bad thing, I find LGW a far nicer experience. Extra runway capacity is desparate, operators going into LGW is hardly.

Quoting zeke (Reply 11): Added to the a.net list of new routes CX is rumored to operating A350s to

Lets be a bit more realistic here. From the map of routes you have mentioned, the ones that will not happen for sure are ABV, LAD, LED, CMN, HEL, ADD and GIG.

One important route you forgot to mention that has a higher likely hood of CX operating sooner than some of the EU routes is YYC-Calgary !

Quoting AA100 (Reply 12): I can definitely see the possibility of these happening within the next 5-10 years on A350 or indeed other aircraft. Some are more likely than others.

I would add DUB to the list. Financial hub to hub, 26 new trade deals between Ireland and China, and finally a full consulate in HKG. Connections on Aer Lingus on one end and on CX on the other.

I think LGW is just fine. I think it seems to only fail when LGW is an airline's only London station.

Quoting hz747300 (Reply 16):

Agreed DUB is a possibility - and I believe an article floated around not long ago that CX were entering preliminary discussions with Dublin over a launch (preliminary meaning the start of a very long drawn out process).

But DUB would be a great route, and be very good for CX to arrive their first before the Chinese carriers.

Quoting AA100 (Reply 12): MEX - Rumoured already, although runway/payload conditions need to be figured out.

Perhaps an intermediate stop such as SEA could do the trick while the new MEX opens?

Quoting ndhair37 (Thread starter): Absolutely desperate times when London has to have the likes of QR and CX going to LGW.

For carriers like CX and EK with many frequencies to London, I don't see why they can't serve both LHR and LGW effectively. They're mainly serving O&D traffic, not connections beyond London, and many passengers probably find LGW more convenient than LHR. Why not cater to both?

Quoting trex8 (Reply 3): Didnt CX originally operate to LGW 3 decades+ ago when they started London flights?

Yes, CX used LGW from 1980 to 1993. That's why the news article in the link in the opening post says "to return to Gatwick".

Quoting AA100 (Reply 12): BER - A future OW hub!

I bet $20 that we'll see a 3rd runway in LHR before the completion of BER.

YLWbased

Quoting YLWbased (Reply 20): I bet $20 that we'll see a 3rd runway in LHR before the completion of BER.

I'll bet you $20 that it will be the completion of BER before a 3rd runway at LHR

Quoting trex8 (Reply 3): Didnt CX originally operate to LGW 3 decades+ ago when they started London flights?

CX launched its first flights to Europe by opening a new route to LGW in 1980.

Quoting AA100 (Reply 6): Having said that, I think this is a risky move. History has proven LHR is more successful for Asian carriers than LGW. Vietnam Airlines, and now Garuda have all switched their services, whilst Air China, Korean Air, Hong Kong Airlines, Oasis etc. have all tried and failed with LGW. Even QR quit, although are also rumoured to be coming back. LGW doesn't have the same yields as LHR - it still is more leisure orientated and LHR serves a larger catchment area for the west and midlands of the UK.

You can add PAL and AirAsiaX to the above list.

Quoting EddieDude (Reply 8): They also have Garuda Indonesia, which is not a leisure or charter carrier. It is a full service airline with a host of interline and codeshare agreements with other similar airlines, that actually offers F, J and Y to LGW.

GA is the latest to move to LHR in 2016.

Quoting AA100 (Reply 6): As others have already alluded to, LGW serves a slightly different market to LHR. I assume LGW will provide alternatives for the London O&D market with Sussex etc. and also the possibility to connect to some European BA leisure destinations and even Caribbean destinations at LGW. I think a lot of UK Expats living in HKG live around Sussex, south London areas, so this will be more convenient for those areas. Having said that, I think this is a risky move. History has proven LHR is more successful for Asian carriers than LGW. Vietnam Airlines, and now Garuda have all switched their services, whilst Air China, Korean Air, Hong Kong Airlines, Oasis etc. have all tried and failed with LGW. Even QR quit, although are also rumoured to be coming back. LGW doesn't have the same yields as LHR - it still is more leisure orientated and LHR serves a larger catchment area for the west and midlands of the UK.

I think you're likely right in the first part of your post. I recall a few months ago there was mention in a post that CX had been collating opinions of frequent flyers about some destinations, including LGW. They will also understand where their customers are originating from (in terms of UK home addresses) and I suspect with the frequencies they have to LHR they believe that there is enough custom to sustain a LGW flight on top of the LHR flights.

More news to confirm the story on LGW.

Cathay Pacific is set to announce an A350-900 service to London Gatwick, Business Traveller understands.

http://www.businesstraveller.com/new...return-to-london-gatwick-with-a350