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rotating14
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Boeing MAX Roll-out: Dec 8th 2015

Wed Nov 25, 2015 12:43 pm

Things are moving accordingly and swiftly at Renton.

http://seekingalpha.com/news/2951416?source=ansh $BA


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[Edited 2015-12-08 12:07:04 by moderators]
 
StTim
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RE: Boeing MAX Roll-out: Dec 8th 2015

Wed Nov 25, 2015 12:49 pm

I must admit I hadn't realised that the development cycle for the MAX is about 12 months longer than the NEO. This is based on the lauch dates from pdxlight.com. I know Aibus would have been already started before launch - wheras BA were a little caught with their trousers down.
 
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RE: Boeing MAX Roll-out: Dec 8th 2015

Wed Nov 25, 2015 3:55 pm

Moving swiftly indeed! Very exciting to hear!

Anyone know if there will be a webcast?
United Airlines: $#!ttin' On Everyone Since 1931
 
FriscoHeavy
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RE: Boeing MAX Roll-out: Dec 8th 2015

Wed Nov 25, 2015 6:33 pm

This is great news. However, I am a little surprised that the plane needs nearly 2 years of flight testing before first delivery, especially since it's a derivative of a plane that has been in business for some 40 or so years.
Whatever
 
StTim
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RE: Boeing MAX Roll-out: Dec 8th 2015

Wed Nov 25, 2015 6:35 pm

There will be some time between roll out and first flight. That is normal is it not - I suspect most of the instrumentation has not been fitted on the production line as this would delay other frames.
 
astuteman
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RE: Boeing MAX Roll-out: Dec 8th 2015

Wed Nov 25, 2015 6:46 pm

Quoting FriscoHeavy (Reply 3):
I am a little surprised that the plane needs nearly 2 years of flight testing before first delivery, especially since it's a derivative of a plane that has been in business for some 40 or so years.

The A320NEO rolled out on July 1st 2014, and will EIS at the end of the year - close to 18 months.
1st MAX deliveries are currently due by Q3 2017 to WN, as I understand it. So there's not that much difference.

Quoting FriscoHeavy (Reply 3):
This is great news

It is. I'm really looking forward to seeing this.
I'm a big fan of the A32X NEO project, and the focus understandably has been on that recently, as it goes through flight testing and into service.
But the MAX is a great programme, the 737-8MAX in particular will serve Boeing well for a long time to come.

We all love to focus on the big widebodys, but this is the heart of the market..

Rgds
 
WIederling
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RE: Boeing MAX Roll-out: Dec 8th 2015

Wed Nov 25, 2015 7:39 pm

Quoting FriscoHeavy (Reply 3):
However, I am a little surprised that the plane needs nearly 2 years

rollout is now ( dec 8 2015 )
first flight is somewhen in the first half of 2016
EIS is supposed to be in 2017

14... 18 month from FF to EIS ?

there are a lot of changes to test ( even a bit of FBW ? )

what do we know about parts commonality percentage to the NG ?
Murphy is an optimist
 
SteinarN
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RE: Boeing MAX Roll-out: Dec 8th 2015

Wed Nov 25, 2015 8:55 pm

Quoting WIederling (Reply 6):
what do we know about parts commonality percentage to the NG ?

A lot less than on the neo.

I think the neo is like 95 percent to the ceo and the MAX only like 75 or 80 percent to the NG. I dont have a source for this, so if anyone have a source for a different number, then feel free to correct me.

[Edited 2015-11-25 12:56:39]
 
MD80Nut
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RE: Boeing MAX Roll-out: Dec 8th 2015

Wed Nov 25, 2015 9:09 pm

Great news. I look forward to ridding in them, as I do the A320neo.

Cheers, Ralph
Fly Douglas Jets DC-8 / DC-9 / DC-10 / MD80 / MD11 / MD90 / 717
 
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crimsonchin
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RE: Boeing MAX Roll-out: Dec 8th 2015

Wed Nov 25, 2015 11:20 pm

Hopefully a real roll-out this time? 12/8/15, doesn't spell out MAX in Chinese or something right?
 
tortugamon
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RE: Boeing MAX Roll-out: Dec 8th 2015

Thu Nov 26, 2015 4:02 am

Quoting astuteman (Reply 5):
1st MAX deliveries are currently due by Q3 2017 to WN, as I understand it. So there's not that much difference.

We keep hearing that Boeing have told airlines to expect their deliveries to be ready early on the Max. Not sure if this is because they sold fewer NG's than they need to - or - the MAX program is truly just ahead of schedule. Maybe both. We will see but I am expecting early part of 3Q at this point. Shouldn't be much different than the MAX as you say.

Quoting SteinarN (Reply 7):
I think the neo is like 95 percent to the ceo and the MAX only like 75 or 80 percent to the NG. I dont have a source for this, so if anyone have a source for a different number, then feel free to correct me.

I don't have the data either but I have read something similar. The MAX has additional changes that the neo does not.

tortugamon
 
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AirlineCritic
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RE: Boeing MAX Roll-out: Dec 8th 2015

Thu Nov 26, 2015 4:42 am

Will the MAX have wooden doors and fasteners from the office depot?

  
 
PlanesNTrains
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RE: Boeing MAX Roll-out: Dec 8th 2015

Thu Nov 26, 2015 5:08 am

Quoting AirlineCritic (Reply 11):
Will the MAX have wooden doors and fasteners from the office depot?

O_M_G Too original!

-Dave
-Dave


MAX’d out on MAX threads. If you are starting a thread, and it’s about the MAX - stop. There’s already a thread that covers it.
 
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seahawk
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RE: Boeing MAX Roll-out: Dec 8th 2015

Thu Nov 26, 2015 6:13 am

Great news for Boeing. I hope they can beat their own performance estimates.
 
WIederling
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RE: Boeing MAX Roll-out: Dec 8th 2015

Thu Nov 26, 2015 8:27 am

Quoting tortugamon (Reply 10):
We keep hearing that Boeing have told airlines to expect their deliveries to be ready early on the Max. Not sure if this is because they sold fewer NG's than they need to

Would it be viable to produce MAX ahead ( i.e. do the Dreamliner Lawn Dart thing only with a much better chance of moving them to customers once the type is certifieed ?
Boeing doesn't have room for hickups, do they?
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r2rho
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RE: Boeing MAX Roll-out: Dec 8th 2015

Thu Nov 26, 2015 9:34 am

Quoting WIederling (Reply 6):
there are a lot of changes to test ( even a bit of FBW ? )

The thing is, the certification base hase changed since the NG was certified, even more so for Airbus since the A320CEO was. So there are things to test today that did not need to be tested in the 80's or 90's. Plus of course the changes to aircraft control laws that a new engine implies, and all the engine testing.
 
WIederling
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RE: Boeing MAX Roll-out: Dec 8th 2015

Thu Nov 26, 2015 10:06 am

Quoting r2rho (Reply 15):
The thing is, the certification base hase changed since the NG was certified, even more so for Airbus since the A320CEO was.

Wasn't that a weighty reason for basing the 737NG on the 737 Jurassic certification?
A mostly new plane build around the wingbolts from the old version, so to speak .-)

( 9 g versus 14g cabin, minimum climb rates for one engine out and some
raised bars re minimum height to clear obstacles after liftoff ... and a bunch of other
requirements?

Large step changes between the initial 737 and the A320 less from A320 to NG.

My understanding was that the basic plane "lives" under its original cert while
larger changes have to comply to current requirements?
Murphy is an optimist
 
r2rho
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RE: Boeing MAX Roll-out: Dec 8th 2015

Thu Nov 26, 2015 12:38 pm

Quoting WIederling (Reply 16):
Wasn't that a weighty reason for basing the 737NG on the 737 Jurassic certification?
A mostly new plane build around the wingbolts from the old version, so to speak .-)

Yep, and the MAX is a modification of the NG, just like the NEO is a simple mod appearing on the CEO TC. This of course, to save the huge work of certifying a full new type. Now, whether the 737MAX relates in any meaningful way to the 737Jurassic... the FAA still seems to think it does.
 
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RayChuang
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RE: Boeing MAX Roll-out: Dec 8th 2015

Thu Nov 26, 2015 3:17 pm

By the way, has CFM International finally addressed the issue with SFC on the LEAP engine used on 737 MAX?
 
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scbriml
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RE: Boeing MAX Roll-out: Dec 8th 2015

Thu Nov 26, 2015 3:27 pm

Quoting r2rho (Reply 17):
Now, whether the 737MAX relates in any meaningful way to the 737Jurassic... the FAA still seems to think it does.

Strictly speaking, we don't know yet because it hasn't been certified.   

But, just like the 748 before it, it will be grandfathered to a pretty old standard. But if the FAA and EASA are happy to certifiy it, it must be OK. Isn't it?  
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WIederling
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RE: Boeing MAX Roll-out: Dec 8th 2015

Thu Nov 26, 2015 3:35 pm

Quoting RayChuang (Reply 21):
has CFM International finally addressed the issue with SFC

It's not even been confirmed that this is/was/will ever be a real problem.  

Make or brake for Flight tests it won't be, right?
First order demand is for a pair or 4 working certified engine.

Now for the fun part:
I did a bit of looking around for the date selection Dec. 8 :
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Feast_of_the_Immaculate_Conception
 
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EPA001
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RE: Boeing MAX Roll-out: Dec 8th 2015

Thu Nov 26, 2015 5:13 pm

Quoting rotating14 (Thread starter):
Things are moving accordingly and swiftly at Renton.

That is great news for the program.  
 
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SEPilot
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RE: Boeing MAX Roll-out: Dec 8th 2015

Thu Nov 26, 2015 6:51 pm

Quoting StTim (Reply 1):
I must admit I hadn't realised that the development cycle for the MAX is about 12 months longer than the NEO.

Boeing had to do a lot more to the 737 for the MAX then Airbus had to do to the A320 to make the NEO. And they gained less in the process. That is the penalty for starting with a 50 year old base design as opposed to a 30 year old one. In particular, when the 737 was designed it was deemed desirable to have it as close to the ground as possible for easier and faster loading/unloading. The short legs on the 737 served them well at first, but with the advent of airbridges and better baggage/cargo equipment the advantage disappeared, and is now hampering efforts to modernize and stretch the venerable old bird.
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StTim
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RE: Boeing MAX Roll-out: Dec 8th 2015

Thu Nov 26, 2015 9:44 pm

One of the changes as I understand it is the length of the nose gear to allow the larger fans to fit. So to my mind this is going to give the MAX a slightly nose up attitude. Now I have two questions.

1. This will increase the angle of attack of the wings during the take off roll. Is this likely to give any issues. Was this an issue for Airbus when the A330F had it's nose gear extended to provide a flat loading platform?

2. Will this lack of a flat load platform preclude future P2F conversions of the MAX frames?
 
WIederling
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RE: Boeing MAX Roll-out: Dec 8th 2015

Thu Nov 26, 2015 10:29 pm

If this increases lift significantly before rotation you have a problem.
That lift comes with induced drag that will take away from available thrust for acceleration.

But you should be able to fine tune that by adjusting the high lift devices marginally.

now to have a whiff of fact with speculation
.2m over ~16m ( .5 length for the MAX7, first order guesswork )
computes to ~.7° ( if I haven't made an error )
Murphy is an optimist
 
StTim
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RE: Boeing MAX Roll-out: Dec 8th 2015

Thu Nov 26, 2015 10:33 pm

I knew it isn't much - but it is enough to give the required clearance and sometimes a small change can make a big difference.
 
aerokiwi
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RE: Boeing MAX Roll-out: Dec 8th 2015

Thu Nov 26, 2015 11:45 pm

Quoting StTim (Reply 23):
2. Will this lack of a flat load platform preclude future P2F conversions of the MAX frames?

My understanding is that it will be a "flat" attitude, back to the -300 style, whereas the NGs had a slight nose down attitude that looked mean-as. A shame in terms of aesthetics for the MAX but necessary, I guess.
 
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N14AZ
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RE: Boeing MAX Roll-out: Dec 8th 2015

Fri Nov 27, 2015 6:49 am

Quoting StTim (Reply 23):
 So to my mind this is going to give the MAX a slightly nose up attitude.

That's what I thought as well at the beginning but I was told it is not the case, there will be no nose-up-attitude.
 
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N14AZ
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RE: Boeing MAX Roll-out: Dec 8th 2015

Fri Nov 27, 2015 8:07 am

Quoting StTim (Reply 25):
I knew it isn't much - but it is enough to give the required clearance and sometimes a small change can make a big difference.

Back in 2011 I thought it will look like this:

Before
https://farm3.staticflickr.com/2128/5814585145_f389c0df0a_o.jpgP1050380a by N14AZ, auf Flickr

After
B 737 neo? by N14AZ, auf Flickr

 
 
WIederling
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RE: Boeing MAX Roll-out: Dec 8th 2015

Fri Nov 27, 2015 8:30 am

Quoting N14AZ (Reply 28):
After

What did happen there? gear collapsed or loading issue ? ( if photoshoped it is very well done )

IMHO raising the front is rather ineffective. Any inch gained on the front
will translate into half an inch or even less at the engine cowl.
Murphy is an optimist
 
F9Animal
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RE: Boeing MAX Roll-out: Dec 8th 2015

Fri Nov 27, 2015 8:43 am

Quoting FriscoHeavy (Reply 3):

This is great news. However, I am a little surprised that the plane needs nearly 2 years of flight testing before first delivery, especially since it's a derivative of a plane that has been in business for some 40 or so years.

Does the MAX have to go through all the flight testing to get FAA Certification? Kind of like the debut of a new plane type? I am a little mystified too. I know the NG's go through the basic testing before being delivered to an airline after coming off the assembly line. That doesn't take 12 to 18 months!
I Am A Different Animal!!
 
StTim
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RE: Boeing MAX Roll-out: Dec 8th 2015

Fri Nov 27, 2015 8:56 am

Quoting F9Animal (Reply 30):
Does the MAX have to go through all the flight testing to get FAA Certification? Kind of like the debut of a new plane type?

The answers to that are yes and no. The MAX has different engines with different weight, centre of gravity etc. This will cause a change to the flight dynamics. So this must be fully tested. This will include the test where they effectively drag the tail on the ground to find the lowest velocity at which the plane will fly. There will also be flutter tests.


We also know that about 15 to 20 % of components are changing. These all have to be certified and whilst most could be certified on the ground not all can.

The engine/airframe integration and new systems will require testing at altitude, hot and cold. The increased size of the engine means that cross wind tests will be required.


There is a lot of testing to be done and validated - even if most basic areas are all ready covered by the granfather clauses.
 
r2rho
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RE: Boeing MAX Roll-out: Dec 8th 2015

Fri Nov 27, 2015 9:03 am

Quoting scbriml (Reply 22):
Strictly speaking, we don't know yet because it hasn't been certified.

But, just like the 748 before it, it will be grandfathered to a pretty old standard. But if the FAA and EASA are happy to certifiy it, it must be OK. Isn't it?

Strictly we don't know, however, the application for TC is handed in very early in the development process, and is definitely long in the FAA's hands. In there, Boeing/Airbus will declare if they intend to certify it as a mod or as a new type, and the FAA / EASA will say if they accept this approach. Of course, discussions take place around the changes planned and how to certify them, with A&B typically playing down the changes while FAA/EASA demand more verification tests, but eventually a certification plan is agreed upon. So, the FAA have already told Boeing that they accept the MAX as a modification. The airplane is now being certified according to that agreed plan (certification begins early in the development, flight testing is only the last part of it).

Quoting F9Animal (Reply 30):
Does the MAX have to go through all the flight testing to get FAA Certification? Kind of like the debut of a new plane type? I am a little mystified too. I know the NG's go through the basic testing before being delivered to an airline after coming off the assembly line. That doesn't take 12 to 18 months!

You are mixing up two things - development and production flight tests. As said, the MAX is not a full new type, but will still require at least as much testing as the NEO did, and likely more since the changes are bigger. The timeline seems reasonable. An NG coming off the FAL already has a TC and a production certificate, thousands have been produced, and after 3 flights or so that follow a standardized production - not development - flight test program, it can be delivered.
 
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N14AZ
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RE: Boeing MAX Roll-out: Dec 8th 2015

Fri Nov 27, 2015 11:46 am

Can't wait to see the roll-out...

I guess there are no new pictures others than recently posted in a separate thread, correct?

Quoting astuteman (Reply 5):
We all love to focus on the big widebodys, but this is the heart of the market..

I actually do not focus on the big widebodies. Whenever I am close to Hamburg I will make a stop at XFW to see all these A320s at the delivery centre. My family hates me for this....

Quoting WIederling (Reply 29):
( if photoshoped it is very well done )

Thank you for the flowers, it is a photoshop. Back in 2011 I was working abroad and had too much time...  
 
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ODwyerPW
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RE: Boeing MAX Roll-out: Dec 8th 2015

Fri Nov 27, 2015 10:22 pm

Quoting crimsonchin (Reply 9):
Hopefully a real roll-out this time? 12/8/15, doesn't spell out MAX in Chinese or something right?

I see what you just did there. LOL. Thanks for a good laugh. Very clever.

I'm looking forward to seeing this bird!
learning never stops.
 
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KarelXWB
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RE: Boeing MAX Roll-out: Dec 8th 2015

Mon Dec 07, 2015 8:57 am

The roll out will be a ' low-key event':

http://leehamnews.com/2015/12/07/737-max-roll-out/

Quote:
Boeing rolls out its first 737 MAX tomorrow to no press fanfare. Today there is a limited press tour of the assembly line, but, according to reporters who were invited, there will be no press briefings.

It’s an inexplicably low-key event for what Boeing otherwise touts as a major evolution of the venerable 737 line.
What we leave behind is not as important as how we've lived.
 
StTim
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RE: Boeing MAX Roll-out: Dec 8th 2015

Mon Dec 07, 2015 9:11 am

That summary from Leeham is very gloomy for Boeing. We have been debating it here but it is the first time I have seen it so starkly in print (well web pages) from any analyst. Leeham does try to be fairly even handed as well.

This comment particularly caught my eye - "Boeing faces cash flow challenges in 2020 decade."

Unfortunately I am not a subscriber so I cannot see the argument they put forward for that. If true it does mean that the development of the MoM plane will be hampered. It is already needed too early to reap the benefits of technology improvements.
 
SteinarN
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RE: Boeing MAX Roll-out: Dec 8th 2015

Mon Dec 07, 2015 9:52 am

Quoting StTim (Reply 36):
This comment particularly caught my eye - "Boeing faces cash flow challenges in 2020 decade."

The argument is that the 77(X) will be consuming money after 2020 and several years thereafter. At the same time the MOM is expected to be in full development, the NSA really needs to have been launched at this stage and thus be in full design/development consuming a lot of money, and lastly, the launch of NSA will depress sales value and sales numbers of the MAX.

There is also talk of market intelligence sugesting a couple percent fuel burn miss for the MAX. Together with better than promised figures, and particularly, planned fuel burn reductions for the NEO in 2019 at 2 percent from only engine pip's it makes the sales of the MAX more difficult and/or makes it more difficult to acheive a high price.

[Edited 2015-12-07 02:00:30]

[Edited 2015-12-07 02:07:41]
 
chiad
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RE: Boeing MAX Roll-out: Dec 8th 2015

Mon Dec 07, 2015 10:49 am

Quoting StTim (Reply 36):
That summary from Leeham is very gloomy for Boeing.

Could it be connected to the A32xNEO's sales dominance this year?
 
WIederling
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RE: Boeing MAX Roll-out: Dec 8th 2015

Mon Dec 07, 2015 11:31 am

Quoting StTim (Reply 36):
If true it does mean that the development of the MoM plane will be hampered. I

The MOM is a fantastic beast of burden created to carry FUD. Lack of cash doesn't touch it.

Quoting chiad (Reply 38):
Could it be connected to the A32xNEO's sales dominance this year?

Nah, never. Leeham is just a Boeing badmouthing Airbus shill who tries to come even for not being invited  
Murphy is an optimist
 
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EPA001
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RE: Boeing MAX Roll-out: Dec 8th 2015

Mon Dec 07, 2015 12:32 pm

Quoting KarelXWB (Reply 35):
The roll out will be a ' low-key event':

I think it is a bit strange that the roll out will be a 'low-key event'. It is the biggest cash cow for Boeing to come for the next 10 years or so. Also the A320-neo did not have a big party when it was rolled out if I recall correctly, and also for Airbus that aircraft is by far the most important cash cow of the company.

Of course they are both not totally new airliners, but their impact is huge. A bit more fanfare seems appropriate to me. But maybe that's just me.  
 
packsonflight
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RE: Boeing MAX Roll-out: Dec 8th 2015

Mon Dec 07, 2015 1:04 pm

Quoting SteinarN (Reply 37):
The argument is that the 77(X) will be consuming money after 2020 and several years thereafter. At the same time the MOM is expected to be in full development, the NSA really needs to have been launched at this stage and thus be in full design/development consuming a lot of money, and lastly, the launch of NSA will depress sales value and sales numbers of the MAX.

The MOM is constantly changing concept with new name each time the concept changes. I don't think they will build it for several reasons:

Future cash-flow problems
To much overlapping with future MAX replacement
A321 re-wing + stretch is a low cost threat to all new design
New dedicated engine has to be developed (The 757 had of the shelve engine)


Boeing has terrible track record building aircrafts which they actually offer: 7J7, Sonic Cruiser, 747-500, 747, 747-600 let alone aircrafts they are hesitating to offer. Expect MOM to become new narrow-body platform as time passes, just as the brilliant Sonic Cruiser turned in to 7E7 which became 787
 
frmrCapCadet
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RE: Boeing MAX Roll-out: Dec 8th 2015

Mon Dec 07, 2015 3:43 pm

A reminder, the early 707s carried 110 or so passengers 3750 NMs. The NEO and MAX can carry a whole lot more people, but not quite as far. I suppose my point is that these two planes are not small planes.
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CXfirst
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RE: Boeing MAX Roll-out: Dec 8th 2015

Mon Dec 07, 2015 4:13 pm

Quoting aerokiwi (Reply 26):
My understanding is that it will be a "flat" attitude, back to the -300 style, whereas the NGs had a slight nose down attitude that looked mean-as. A shame in terms of aesthetics for the MAX but necessary, I guess.

  

Anyone that has loaded the 737NGs as a ramp handler, would be able to tell yo that the rear hold is higher than the front one, so the aircraft has a slight nose-down attitude (when there is no load anywhere).

Now, if they raise the nose-wheel, I doubt it would be enough to make it a nose-up attitude, rather a more level attitude.

-CXfirst
 
SteinarN
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RE: Boeing MAX Roll-out: Dec 8th 2015

Mon Dec 07, 2015 4:52 pm

Quoting packsonflight (Reply 41):
The MOM is constantly changing concept with new name each time the concept changes. I don't think they will build it for several reasons:

I tend to agree with that assessment. I think there is a very valid reason there is a gap between ca 240 to 300 and something passengers in single class. It is very difficult to design an efficient aircraft in that size, make it single aisle and the fuselage becomes too long, get too high fineness ratio and hence gets heavy and aerodynamically less efficient. Go twin aisle and you get too much aisle space or you get a stubby and too wide and too short fuselage with too low fineness ratio which makes it heavy and aerodynamically inefficient.

So, I am not at all sure Boeing -or Airbus for that matter- will ever offer a so called MOM aircraft. It is easy to say we wish to build an aircraft with space for say 280 passengers single class, but when you start to design that aircraft you need to make some basic design decisions and suddenly it may become apparent that no matter which design decision you make it might become an inefficient design.
 
UA444
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RE: Boeing MAX Roll-out: Dec 8th 2015

Mon Dec 07, 2015 4:57 pm

It's a low key event because nobody cares about a 50 year old thanksgiving dinner being reheated for the 11th time.
 
WIederling
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RE: Boeing MAX Roll-out: Dec 8th 2015

Mon Dec 07, 2015 5:03 pm

Quoting UA444 (Reply 45):
thanksgiving dinner

Thanksgiving?
no.

Dec. 8 : Feast of the Immaculate Conception
followed 9 month later by
Sep. 8 : Nativity of Mary

no idea what to make of either connection  

[Edited 2015-12-07 09:04:27]
Murphy is an optimist
 
astuteman
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RE: Boeing MAX Roll-out: Dec 8th 2015

Mon Dec 07, 2015 5:23 pm

Quoting EPA001 (Reply 40):
I think it is a bit strange that the roll out will be a 'low-key event'

After the criticism of the 787 roll-out, I think it is the absolutely natural response to keep it low key.

And as per your own observation, Airbus took exactly the same approach with the NEO

Quoting UA444 (Reply 45):
It's a low key event because nobody cares about a 50 year old thanksgiving dinner being reheated for the 11th time.

I suspect the people that have purchased 3000 of the re-heated portions might be interested in the fare being offered  

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RE: Boeing MAX Roll-out: Dec 8th 2015

Mon Dec 07, 2015 5:59 pm

Quoting SteinarN (Reply 37):
The argument is that the 77(X) will be consuming money after 2020 and several years thereafter. At the same time the MOM is expected to be in full development, the NSA really needs to have been launched at this stage and thus be in full design/development consuming a lot of money, and lastly, the launch of NSA will depress sales value and sales numbers of the MAX.

Which is to be expected.

The NSA should do what it's made for. To replace the 737. Once the MAX program concludes development of all models in 2019, that should be it. By the early 2020s, the only thing Boeing should be worrying about is the 777X, that's true, but I believe that the resources would be cleared sufficiently to develop the NSA and MoM.

Boeing should, like they did with the 757/767, develop the NSA and MoM side-by-side.

Quoting packsonflight (Reply 41):
The MOM is constantly changing concept with new name each time the concept changes. I don't think they will build it for several reasons:

Alright...

Quoting packsonflight (Reply 41):
Future cash-flow problems

With no major development of their commercial aircraft going on after 2020, I would argue that they would. The 787-10 is done in 2018, the 737 MAX will conclude development with the MAX 7 in 2019, and the 777X concludes with the -8 in 2021. I could be wrong, but that's what I think.

Quoting packsonflight (Reply 41):
To much overlapping with future MAX replacement

Highly disagree.

Here's an excerpt from a thread I did earlier this year:

Quote:
"What I've always suggested was that Boeing take a similar approach to what Embraer is doing with the E-Jet family; a small base engine for the smaller shorter models (The NSA), with larger, more powerful (uprated) engines for the larger models (The MoM.)

In this way, each of the models are suited to the needs and demands of the carriers that utilze them, while also maintaining the highest efficiency possible.

I suggest this as a result to a trend I've seen involving most aircraft families involving three or more subtypes, which I call the "Three Member Syndrome Theory." It's pretty simple. These families contain planes that, besides obviously length and other small details, are identical in every way. Same engines, same wings (The A350-1000, to my understanding, is several hundred square feet larger than that on the A350-900), etc. Basically, the smallest of these families fail to sell in exceptional numbers as the economics of the larger members negates the need for the smallest member.

We're seeing this with the 737 MAX 7, A319neo, A350-800, we're possibly seeing signs of it happening to the 787-8, and it has happened to the 737-600, A318 and 767-200.

For example, four NSA (and MoM) models, the 797-7,-8,-9 and -10. The shorter two, sized in between the 737-700 and -800 for the -7, and 737-800 and -900ER for the -8, would replace the 737, while the larger two, with larger wings, engines, greater ranger, etc., would be sized in between the 737-900ER and 757-200 for the -9, and 757-200 and -300 for the -10, and would replace the 757, some 767s and (perhaps) the 787-8 on certain missions.

I also wonder if the smaller NSA models would have wingtip extensions, while the larger have raked wingtips?

What I suggested was Boeing take the technology on the 787 as a template, and as time progresses by a few years, develop more advanced technology to begin with the NSA."

Boeing NSA/797/Y1 Appearance And Specs (by Boeing778X Apr 20 2015 in Civil Aviation)
Quoting packsonflight (Reply 41):
A321 re-wing + stretch is a low cost threat to all new design

That could be a plausible threat, however. The A321 is already a 757-100, the way I see it.

It could come down to economics.

Quoting packsonflight (Reply 41):
New dedicated engine has to be developed (The 757 had of the shelve engine)

I would argue that any engine that the NSA/MoM could need already exist in an immature form today. The progress with jet engines in the last 10-12 years has been amazing.


[Edited 2015-12-07 10:08:02]
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RE: Boeing MAX Roll-out: Dec 8th 2015

Mon Dec 07, 2015 6:05 pm

Quoting frmrCapCadet (Reply 42):
A reminder, the early 707s carried 110 or so passengers 3750 NMs.

Just wondering, how many would an early 707 seat using slime lime seats @ 29 inch, two lavs and a coffee-only-galley in a re-designed rear pressure bulkhead . . . ?
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