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MrHMSH
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RE: Boeing MAX Roll-out: Dec 8th 2015

Mon Dec 07, 2015 6:07 pm

Quoting astuteman (Reply 47):

And as per your own observation, Airbus took exactly the same approach with the NEO

And the A350, it should be noted. Both much lower key than the A380.
 
astuteman
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RE: Boeing MAX Roll-out: Dec 8th 2015

Mon Dec 07, 2015 6:29 pm

Quoting Boeing778X (Reply 48):
That could be a plausible threat, however. The A321 is already a 757-100, the way I see it.

It isn't though. It's the longest stretch of a family, as opposed to the shortest shrink of a family.
A 757-100 would have double-bogie MLG, for example, and a wing that was way too big for it.

Quoting MrHMSH (Reply 50):
And the A350, it should be noted. Both much lower key than the A380.

Yep. both OEM's have learned painful lessons here.
But then I'm English. I like understated  

Rgds
 
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lightsaber
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RE: Boeing MAX Roll-out: Dec 8th 2015

Mon Dec 07, 2015 7:19 pm

Quoting FriscoHeavy (Reply 3):
However, I am a little surprised that the plane needs nearly 2 years of flight testing before first delivery, especially since it's a derivative of a plane that has been in business for some 40 or so years.

But a lot isn't the same and the FAA/EASA demand to see that the plane does indeed fly the same. There are some aspects that will *not* be identical:
1. Ground FOD/water ingestion into the engines. All tests must be repeated.
2. Engine stall characteristics with angle of attack
3. Thrust reverse operation
4. Cross-wind handling (those larger engines will add 'sail area' making the MAX tougher to handle in cross winds). The new winglets worsen the problem (as they do on the NG and the sharklets on the NEO).
5. Rudder operation in an engine out condition (there will be a different thrust profile with flight velocity). I expect a fractional increase in engine out flight speeds.
6. The 737 is gaining some fly by wire capability (Is it really only the spoilers? There are a few hydraulic actuators I would replace on the 737 if I was chief engineer of the MAX.) Which new actuators might power the same linkage, they have to be tested. I'm surprised Boeing didn't put in redundant electrical actuators on the rudder too. Just my   
7. New overhead bins. Ok, these probably will be certified on a 737NG test bed and just accepted if the cabin prototype works. (Parallel work, lower cost to do it on a proven airframe.)
8. That new front landing gear will get lots of attention. Talk about an area where the certification rules have changed.
9. IIRC, new floor panels (retrofit-able to the 737NG). Not a big deal. It seems like every 8 years every still in production plane gets new ones. Partially due to the high crash loading, partially to save weight/cost. It is just cheapest to certify them as part of the MAX upgrade.
10. The electric actuators on the air bleed require some re-certification of the aircraft systems they attach to (e.g., anti-icing). GE is going all electric actuators on all new engines (joint venture of GE branded). I don't blame them; in my opinion it is the *only* way to go. And I'm an expert on designing the old school actuators!    This will be a reliability/maintenance advantage for CFM.

But there is a lot remaining that is well proven, but there must be some testing to validate the operating environment didn't change.

Quoting MD80Nut (Reply 8):
I look forward to ridding in them, as I do the A320neo.

So do I. Pardon me if I bias my flights to Pratt powered products.  
Quoting tortugamon (Reply 10):
We keep hearing that Boeing have told airlines to expect their deliveries to be ready early on the Max.

While interesting, airlines do not have to accept early deliveries. They can always find fault with the carpet.   
On the other hand, I expect most airlines will want their -8MAX early.    I estimate about 20% might not be accepted early, but 80% will be happily taken early. This is based on my perception of market demand.

Quoting r2rho (Reply 17):
Now, whether the 737MAX relates in any meaningful way to the 737Jurassic... the FAA still seems to think it does.

Many systems that wouldn't meet todays rules have proven themselves for 50 years on the 737. A new design would have to meet new standards, but some of that Jurasic stuff is still good. But then again, new hydraulic systems (2 changes since the 732 come to mind quickly), new engines, etc.

But why re-certify fuel inerting systems that were just certified if the tank volume didn't change?
Why re-certify landing gear, a very expensive cert, if the MTOW hasn't increased? And yes, a small increase can be certified by analysis, so I'm not saying no increase. But if the landing gear bay remains the 737NG bay which is just a heavier variation of the old bays...

Yes, the front gear is longer. Boeing had to so work on that. But I wonder if the actuator or sensors changed part number or location...

Quoting StTim (Reply 36):
That summary from Leeham is very gloomy for Boeing.

Leeham consistently favors airbus. Their A343 vs. 77E analysis does not reflect the actual sales history of the two frames for example.

Quoting chiad (Reply 38):
Could it be connected to the A32xNEO's sales dominance this year?

The A32xNEO has done well in flight testing and Airbus has the numbers to show customers. That always helps sales.    And a production rate increase (earlier slots became available to sell). And the A320NEO is looking to deliver more range (a few customers, for example 6E, need more range).

I expect the MAX to do well. Once the plane is flying and Boeing can say "look, we'll meet/beat promise range," more customers will come forward.

Quoting RayChuang (Reply 18):
By the way, has CFM International finally addressed the issue with SFC on the LEAP engine used on 737 MAX?

Per my rumor mill, some has been, but some hasn't. A new issue has been found on the LEAP-1A that probably will effect the LEAP-1B (but I speculate). One of the older issues I've talked about seems to be but a few months away from permanent resolution (a fix). What hasn't been proven is CFM's ability to make the 5-stage low turbine compete with the 7-stage on the NEO or just fixing the fundamental problem and spinning the dang low turbine up at a Mach number it is happy with (as with Pratt's GTF). Most of the fuel efficiency gain with a GTF is in the low turbine despite the part count reduction (due to far fewer stages and the ability to go with fewer blades per stage as the turbine designers are not trying to manage flow at a glacial mach #). Energy transfer is proportional to: W*U*dU/dt.

U=velocity through the turbine
W=massflow
dU/dt is change in velocity (what can be pulled off is proportional to U).

So basically the turbine extraction is proportional to a velocity squared term (it is really Mach#^2, but I'm really simplifying the discussion). So while the LEAP-1B has a smaller fan and thus a faster spinning low turbine, it isn't enough faster spinning to lop off two stages. The LEAP-1B needs a 6 stage low turbine in my opinion. While the PW1100G's low turbine is about 2.5X faster so you have a case where 3 stages can actually do more work more efficiently than 7. Since there is less surface area on 3 stages, there is far less blade drag losses too...

Pratt tried to deliver a 5 stage high compressor on the PW6000 when their own compressor department said 6 was needed (7 were delivered to be conservative after the HUGE mistake made). I think the 5 stage low turbine of the LEAP-1B is easily the greatest technical risk assumed by CFM. #2 was the high temperature materials.

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astuteman
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RE: Boeing MAX Roll-out: Dec 8th 2015

Tue Dec 08, 2015 2:04 am

Quoting KarelXWB (Reply 35):
The roll out will be a ' low-key event':

Do we know what time the roll out is due to be tomorrow?
I'll be on the road to, and from, my eldest daughter's Master's graduation for a large part of tomorrow, so I might miss it

rgds
 
nikeherc
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RE: Boeing MAX Roll-out: Dec 8th 2015

Tue Dec 08, 2015 3:20 am

Quoting astuteman (Reply 53):

Congratulations to your daughter and you.
DC6 to 777 and most things in between
 
IndianicWorld
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RE: Boeing MAX Roll-out: Dec 8th 2015

Tue Dec 08, 2015 3:41 am

Quoting AirlineCritic (Reply 11):
Will the MAX have wooden doors and fasteners from the office depot?
Quoting PlanesNTrains (Reply 12):
O_M_G Too original!

Unfortunately when they have done it once, it will always come up  
 
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Boeing778X
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RE: Boeing MAX Roll-out: Dec 8th 2015

Tue Dec 08, 2015 3:47 am

Quoting astuteman (Reply 53):
I'll be on the road to, and from, my eldest daughter's Master's graduation for a large part of tomorrow, so I might miss it

You probably won't miss much  

But do tell your daughter congratulations on behalf of everyone on A.net  
United Airlines: $#!ttin' On Everyone Since 1931
 
INFINITI329
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RE: Boeing MAX Roll-out: Dec 8th 2015

Tue Dec 08, 2015 4:27 am

Quoting lightsaber (Reply 52):
3. Thrust reverse operation

What's changing about this?
 
XT6Wagon
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RE: Boeing MAX Roll-out: Dec 8th 2015

Tue Dec 08, 2015 8:03 am

Quoting infiniti329 (Reply 57):
What's changing about this?

new engines, new mountings, new control software. So even if the thrust reversers were somehow identical in hardware, it still could function differently. Pretty sure it would be impossible to do the new engines without meaningful changes to the thrust reverser hardware.
 
yeelep
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RE: Boeing MAX Roll-out: Dec 8th 2015

Tue Dec 08, 2015 1:03 pm

Quoting lightsaber (Reply 52):
7. New overhead bins. Ok, these probably will be certified on a 737NG test bed and just accepted if the cabin prototype works. (Parallel work, lower cost to do it on a proven airframe.)

The new space bins are already in service on NG's.
 
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KarelXWB
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RE: Boeing MAX Roll-out: Dec 8th 2015

Tue Dec 08, 2015 2:10 pm

Quoting astuteman (Reply 53):
Do we know what time the roll out is due to be tomorrow?

Should be 12pm eastern time (6pm local time here in Holland).
What we leave behind is not as important as how we've lived.
 
boefan
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RE: Boeing MAX Roll-out: Dec 8th 2015

Tue Dec 08, 2015 3:08 pm

Photos are starting to show up

http://twitter.com/TheJetDetective/status/674242436940480512

[Edited 2015-12-08 07:21:12]

[Edited 2015-12-08 07:22:00]
 
starrymarkb
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RE: Boeing MAX Roll-out: Dec 8th 2015

Tue Dec 08, 2015 3:16 pm

Has it been Raccooned?
 
WIederling
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RE: Boeing MAX Roll-out: Dec 8th 2015

Tue Dec 08, 2015 3:34 pm

Quoting starrymarkb (Reply 62):
Has it been Raccooned?

might be. or just the lighting?

and the nose looks rather pointier than usual. ( But that is probably due the wide lens used )
Murphy is an optimist
 
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lightsaber
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RE: Boeing MAX Roll-out: Dec 8th 2015

Tue Dec 08, 2015 4:05 pm

Quoting yeelep (Reply 59):
The new space bins are already in service on NG's.

I'm hearing of yet another revision to the 737 bins. With the -200 MAX, more space is needed. Fact or rumor? I don't know. Maybe just a study. But thanks to bag fees, bin space is much more important than pre-bag fees.

Quoting Boeing778X (Reply 56):
But do tell your daughter congratulations on behalf of everyone on A.net

Yes, congrats.

Quoting starrymarkb (Reply 62):

Has it been Raccooned?

Nooooo.....   

I'm not a fan of the bandit mask.


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Polot
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RE: Boeing MAX Roll-out: Dec 8th 2015

Tue Dec 08, 2015 4:09 pm

Quoting WIederling (Reply 63):
might be. or just the lighting?

It just looks like there is no direct light shining on the metal window frames so it appears dull, and obviously with the plane off and it being night time the interior, and thus windows, is pitch black.
 
Sooner787
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RE: Boeing MAX Roll-out: Dec 8th 2015

Tue Dec 08, 2015 5:43 pm

Well, they've released photos on Boeing's website...

http://www.boeing.com/commercial/737max/creating-the-737-max


Awfully dark in Seattle today   
 
WIederling
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RE: Boeing MAX Roll-out: Dec 8th 2015

Tue Dec 08, 2015 5:46 pm

Quoting Sooner787 (Reply 66):

Today, we celebrate the rollout of the first 737 MAX 8.

The new 737 MAX will deliver 20 percent lower fuel use than the first Next-Generation 737s and the lowest operating costs.
Murphy is an optimist
 
mrocktor
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RE: Boeing MAX Roll-out: Dec 8th 2015

Tue Dec 08, 2015 5:47 pm

This is worth a LOL:

https://www.flightglobal.com/news/articles/boeing-unveils-teal-liveried-737-max-8-419831/

The only things painted on the airplane are the wings, fairing, and rudder... but this guy goes on and on about the "freshly painted teal livery".

 
 
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Boeing778X
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RE: Boeing MAX Roll-out: Dec 8th 2015

Tue Dec 08, 2015 5:49 pm

From Facebook:
United Airlines: $#!ttin' On Everyone Since 1931
 
StTim
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RE: Boeing MAX Roll-out: Dec 8th 2015

Tue Dec 08, 2015 5:51 pm

A couple of comments.

1. Not such a dramatically different looking plane to the NG - compared to the NEO. Due to the engine diameter not being so dramatically changed.
2. I wasn't aware they were going to use the, not sure of their term, waving exhaust fairing. I understand this reduces noise due to greater intermixing, but increases fuel consumption slightly. If the LEAP is currently struggling to hit the sfc (rumour only) then this will not help.
 
mrocktor
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RE: Boeing MAX Roll-out: Dec 8th 2015

Tue Dec 08, 2015 5:54 pm

That nose section looks *completely* out of place on a modern airplane...
 
WIederling
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RE: Boeing MAX Roll-out: Dec 8th 2015

Tue Dec 08, 2015 6:03 pm

Quoting mrocktor (Reply 71):

It's the paintjob.

Slight nose up attitude.

all else : looks like a plane  

any pics of "tail job" ?
Murphy is an optimist
 
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817Dreamliiner
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RE: Boeing MAX Roll-out: Dec 8th 2015

Tue Dec 08, 2015 6:11 pm

photos in the database:


View Large View Medium
Click here for bigger photo!

Photo © Royal S King
View Large View Medium
Click here for bigger photo!

Photo © Royal S King

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DocLightning
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RE: Boeing MAX Roll-out: Dec 8th 2015

Tue Dec 08, 2015 6:14 pm

Quoting WIederling (Reply 24):

If this increases lift significantly before rotation you have a problem.
That lift comes with induced drag that will take away from available thrust for acceleration.

Not to mention if you have too much lift and the aircraft tries to start flying before Vr and then an engine goes out, you may not have enough control authority to remain directional control in a setting of asymmetrical thrust. Obviously, the people at Boeing know how to build airliners so they have some solution for this.
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Boeing778X
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RE: Boeing MAX Roll-out: Dec 8th 2015

Tue Dec 08, 2015 6:23 pm

It seems to stand a bit taller than an NG. Looks really nice!
United Airlines: $#!ttin' On Everyone Since 1931
 
N766UA
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RE: Boeing MAX Roll-out: Dec 8th 2015

Tue Dec 08, 2015 6:36 pm

No nosegear hump? Hurray!
 
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Heavierthanair
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RE: Boeing MAX Roll-out: Dec 8th 2015

Tue Dec 08, 2015 6:38 pm

G'day

Looks to me somewhat like a Ford model T with a recent engine update      

Sorry, could not resist, but the thing really looks kind of dated   


Cheers

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CrimsonNL
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RE: Boeing MAX Roll-out: Dec 8th 2015

Tue Dec 08, 2015 6:40 pm

How nice to see they've retained those heavy, 1960's cabin doors!   I wonder if rampers can still climb from the ground into the forward hold with the increased length of the nose gear strut.

Martijn
Always comparing your flown types list with mine
 
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Boeing778X
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RE: Boeing MAX Roll-out: Dec 8th 2015

Tue Dec 08, 2015 6:42 pm

Quoting Heavierthanair (Reply 77):
Sorry, could not resist, but the thing really looks kind of dated

It looks perfectly fine to me.
United Airlines: $#!ttin' On Everyone Since 1931
 
QANTAS747-438
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RE: Boeing MAX Roll-out: Dec 8th 2015

Tue Dec 08, 2015 6:46 pm

Will this exact airframe go into service with WN? I noticed it already has the WN tail number on it, N8701Q.
My posts/replies are strictly my opinion and not that of any company, organization, or Southwest Airlines.
 
Sooner787
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RE: Boeing MAX Roll-out: Dec 8th 2015

Tue Dec 08, 2015 6:51 pm

Quoting QANTAS747-438 (Reply 80):
Will this exact airframe go into service with WN? I noticed it already has the WN tail number on it, N8701Q.

Yes it will after it's reworked following the flight test program
 
MadameConcorde
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RE: Boeing MAX Roll-out: Dec 8th 2015

Tue Dec 08, 2015 6:53 pm

Welcome to the new airplane!

Nice looking aircraft. The winglets look a little unsual.

Is this made of the same carbon fiber material as the B787s?

When is the date for the first flight? is it announced yet?

     
There was a better way to fly it was called Concorde
 
StTim
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RE: Boeing MAX Roll-out: Dec 8th 2015

Tue Dec 08, 2015 6:54 pm

Will BA keep one as an ongoing test frame or will they do future testing on production frames??
 
A388
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RE: Boeing MAX Roll-out: Dec 8th 2015

Tue Dec 08, 2015 6:55 pm

Nice looking 737!!! I hope they will do test flights from CUR as well 

Are the windows also bigger on the 737MAX just like the 787 or not?


A388
 
nikeherc
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RE: Boeing MAX Roll-out: Dec 8th 2015

Tue Dec 08, 2015 6:57 pm

Quoting mrocktor (Reply 71):
That nose section looks *completely* out of place on a modern airplane...

It does look kind of DC-3 to DC-7ish, doesn't it. If you compare DC-8 and DC-9 had more modern looking noses than the Boeings.
DC6 to 777 and most things in between
 
Seat99A
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RE: Boeing MAX Roll-out: Dec 8th 2015

Tue Dec 08, 2015 7:07 pm

Nothing a black windscreen "mask" couldn't perhaps fix ...
 
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Polot
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RE: Boeing MAX Roll-out: Dec 8th 2015

Tue Dec 08, 2015 7:18 pm

Quoting A388 (Reply 84):
Are the windows also bigger on the 737MAX just like the 787 or not?

I believe the 737MAX window size is the same as all the other 737s. The 737's windows are already bigger than the A320s (although I think the A320s are better placed) so no need to increase the size for marketing reasons.


As for nose. Its old fashion but I have always liked the 737 nose, it gives the plane some personality instead of looking so generic (something I think the A320 suffers from).
 
bobdino
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RE: Boeing MAX Roll-out: Dec 8th 2015

Tue Dec 08, 2015 7:22 pm

Quoting mrocktor (Reply 71):
That nose section looks *completely* out of place on a modern airplane...

Unfortunately, that was my initial gut reaction as well.
 
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caoimhin
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RE: Boeing MAX Roll-out: Dec 8th 2015

Tue Dec 08, 2015 7:28 pm

Quoting Heavierthanair (Reply 77):
Sorry, could not resist, but the thing really looks kind of dated

Only in the sense that it looks like a 737. This was never promised as a revolutionary new design. It's a 737 with a few new features, cool wingtips and scalloped nacelles.

The sharp angles of the windscreen and the protruding nose look aggressive and make the plane look sort of athletic. Compared to the more bulbous curvature of newer designs. As unpopular an opinion as it may be, I personally like the look of the 737. I'll show myself out.
 
frostyj
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RE: Boeing MAX Roll-out: Dec 8th 2015

Tue Dec 08, 2015 7:36 pm

Looking at the photos it looks like there are only a few minor cosmetic changes e.g. windows and engine.

To be honest, I don't mind - I quite like the 737-800's design. The positive for this is obviously the increased range, I expect to see these operating from home soon.
[url=http://m.maploco.com/details/5f34zxvq][img]http://www.maploco.com/vmap/s/8395334.png[/img][/url]
 
barney captain
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RE: Boeing MAX Roll-out: Dec 8th 2015

Tue Dec 08, 2015 7:40 pm

Quoting WIederling (Reply 72):
Slight nose up attitude.

I think that has more to do with the type of tug being used in that pic, the actual attitude is stated to be zero degrees.
Southeast Of Disorder
 
bobdino
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RE: Boeing MAX Roll-out: Dec 8th 2015

Tue Dec 08, 2015 7:54 pm

Quoting mrocktor (Reply 68):
https://www.flightglobal.com/news/articles/boeing-unveils-teal-liveried-737-max-8-419831/

Quoting from that article:

Quote:

The Leap-1B engines for the 737 Max are expected to deliver a 10% improvement on specific fuel consumption, compared to CFM56 engines being delivered to customers today. Combined with the winglets, re-lofted tail cone and other changes, Boeing still intends to deliver the 737 Max with a 14% overall improvement in specific fuel consumption, Leverkuhn says.

Boeing has “good confidence” is CFM’s ability to meet the fuel consumption target, he adds. The Leap-1B is now expected to receive engine certification shortly after first flight of the 737 Max 8 early next year, Leverkuhn says.


"Still" and "good confidence" aren't confidence inspiring. Maybe I'm overthinking it?
 
astuteman
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RE: Boeing MAX Roll-out: Dec 8th 2015

Tue Dec 08, 2015 8:00 pm

Quoting nikeherc (Reply 54):
Congratulations to your daughter and you.
Quoting Boeing778X (Reply 56):
But do tell your daughter congratulations on behalf of everyone on A.net

Thanks Guys.

Nice to see MAX make an appearance. First flight is?

Rgds
 
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scbriml
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RE: Boeing MAX Roll-out: Dec 8th 2015

Tue Dec 08, 2015 8:03 pm

Congrats to Boeing on the roll-out. Now the real work begins...

Quoting MadameConcorde (Reply 82):
The winglets look a little unsual.

IMHO, I don't think it's much of a looker, but those winglets are fugly.   
Time flies like an arrow. Fruit flies like a banana!
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Ruscoe
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RE: Boeing MAX Roll-out: Dec 8th 2015

Tue Dec 08, 2015 8:06 pm

Considering the amount of talk in various threads with dire warnings about the LEAP, this is straight from the CFM Press Centre and dated 8th December 2015:

The new single-aisle airplane will deliver 20 percent lower fuel use than the first Next-Generation 737s and the lowest operating costs in its class – 8 percent per seat less than the A320neo.

Ruscoe
 
SXDFC
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RE: Boeing MAX Roll-out: Dec 8th 2015

Tue Dec 08, 2015 8:07 pm

Quoting QANTAS747-438 (Reply 80):
Will this exact airframe go into service with WN? I noticed it already has the WN tail number on it, N8701Q.

Yes, the 737MAX will have the 87** tail numbers.
 
jetblue1965
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RE: Boeing MAX Roll-out: Dec 8th 2015

Tue Dec 08, 2015 8:09 pm

What's the short code for 7max 8max 9 max ? is it still 73G 738 739 ? Or there are new codes for them ?

Same question regarding the NEOs.
 
StTim
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RE: Boeing MAX Roll-out: Dec 8th 2015

Tue Dec 08, 2015 8:10 pm

Quoting Ruscoe (Reply 95):
The new single-aisle airplane will deliver 20 percent lower fuel use than the first Next-Generation 737s and the lowest operating costs in its class – 8 percent per seat less than the A320neo.

That is marketing speak and as we know it has been repeated so often it becomes accepted fact. It may be true under specific considerations but yu could take other scenarios where it isn't true. It sort of reminds me of VW.
 
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Revelation
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RE: Boeing MAX Roll-out: Dec 8th 2015

Tue Dec 08, 2015 8:12 pm

Quoting bobdino (Reply 92):
"Still" and "good confidence" aren't confidence inspiring.

Not to mention no hint of "when" they expect to meet said target...
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