Boeing MAX Roll-out: Dec 8th 2015

LAX772LR · Tue Dec 08, 2015 8:16 pm

Extremely underwhelming.

The chevrons and new wingtip devices are cool... but gotta say, what a let-down for we enthusiasts (not that they care).

Good for the airlines that they'll reap financial benefits, though.

Eagleboy · Tue Dec 08, 2015 8:17 pm

Quoting FriscoHeavy (Reply 3):

This is great news. However, I am a little surprised that the plane needs nearly 2 years of flight testing before first delivery, especially since it's a derivative of a plane that has been in business for some 40 or so years.

Anyone see any cable ties on the roll-out airframe?

StTim · Tue Dec 08, 2015 8:20 pm

I thought the most interesting word in there was "Intend"

Quoting bobdino (Reply 92):
Boeing still intends to deliver the 737 Max with a 14% overall improvement in specific fuel consumption, Leverkuhn says.

Sooner787 · Tue Dec 08, 2015 8:28 pm

So what rolls out next, the Max -7 or the Max -9 test frame?

roseflyer · Tue Dec 08, 2015 8:57 pm

Quoting DocLightning (Reply 74):

Quoting WIederling (Reply 24):

If this increases lift significantly before rotation you have a problem.
That lift comes with induced drag that will take away from available thrust for acceleration.

Not to mention if you have too much lift and the aircraft tries to start flying before Vr and then an engine goes out, you may not have enough control authority to remain directional control in a setting of asymmetrical thrust. Obviously, the people at Boeing know how to build airliners so they have some solution for this.

The lift from the wing won't be a problem on takeoff. At zero degrees attitude the wing is not producing as much lift as in flight. When at cruise the airplane has to have a nose up pitch of 2-3 degrees to support its own weight. In the ground it will be lighter on the tires than the NG but not have a risk of lifting off the ground. Above about 80knots the nose wheel steering has almost no impact on directional control. The rudder is in control.

The problems is landing. A higher nose up attitude than the NG results in less weight on wheels which means less friction for the tires during braking. The MAX has new fly by wire spoilers which should help with that problem to get more weight on the tires to allow heavier braking. The NG could outbrake an A320 much of the time. I don't know if that is true with the MAX,

deutronium · Tue Dec 08, 2015 8:57 pm

No oval windows? Is that fad over?

astuteman · Tue Dec 08, 2015 8:57 pm

Quoting Ruscoe (Reply 95):
The new single-aisle airplane will deliver 20 percent lower fuel use than the first Next-Generation 737s and the lowest operating costs in its class – 8 percent per seat less than the A320neo

Is it perhaps worth pointing out that airlines that assessed both types, and are perhaps a tad more independent, are said to have put the difference at around 2 percent per seat?

That was said before the rumoured issue with the Leap 1B's SFC, and P+W's promise of a 2%-3% PIP on the A320 by 2018.

It will be interesting to watch the flight test programme unfold

Rgds

NC1844V · Tue Dec 08, 2015 9:06 pm

Great news! Glad to see things are moving along.

Thanks for sharing.

Boeing778X · Tue Dec 08, 2015 9:10 pm

Quoting astuteman (Reply 93):
Nice to see MAX make an appearance. First flight is?

All we have at this point is "Spring 2016", which isn't so far off.

N14AZ · Tue Dec 08, 2015 9:19 pm

Congratulations to Boeing....... ...... and Astuteman's daughter as well, of course.

And what a nice idea to integrate the latest pictures into the first post of this thread.

FlyPIJets · Tue Dec 08, 2015 9:21 pm

I notice Boeing didn't spring for the airstairs on the first one.

by738 · Tue Dec 08, 2015 9:23 pm

cue repeated incident reports of winglet damage on ramp... recipe for disaster

KELPkid · Tue Dec 08, 2015 9:34 pm

Quoting 817Dreamliiner (Reply 73):
photos in the database:

Just me or is the landing gear taller?

If so, it's a shame that they didn't give Pratt a chance on this airframe...

Also, will there be a period of dual production at Renton, like there was with the NG, where some NG's are rolling down the line along with the MAX?

777Jet · Tue Dec 08, 2015 9:38 pm

I've never been a fan of the 737 but the MAX looks absolutely awesome - especially the new tail cone & wings / engines.

Great job Boeing!

swacle · Tue Dec 08, 2015 9:55 pm

Quoting by738 (Reply 111):
cue repeated incident reports of winglet damage on ramp... recipe for disaster

To the best of my knowledge, the Split Schimitar winglets available now have not caused too much trouble, so I don't see the MAx's winglets being too big of a problem either.

LAX772LR · Tue Dec 08, 2015 10:02 pm

Quoting roseflyer (Reply 104):
In the ground it will be lighter on the tires than the NG

How come? Bigger tires, or did you mean as a result of lift?

MaverickTTT · Tue Dec 08, 2015 10:03 pm

Quoting by738 (Reply 111):
cue repeated incident reports of winglet damage on ramp... recipe for disaster

I said the same when split scimitars went into service. So far, I've been wrong.

roseflyer · Tue Dec 08, 2015 10:15 pm

Quoting LAX772LR (Reply 115):

In the ground it will be lighter on the tires than the NG

How come? Bigger tires, or did you mean as a result of lift?

The problem is lift during landing. The nose down attitude along with the increased spoiler deflection short field performance package gave the 737-800 incredible stopping performance since there was significant weight on the tires. I don't know of any airplane with higher tire pavement loading than the 737-900ER. On the ground the wing did not create much upward lift. The pavement loading on the 737 tended to be quite high. The taller nose gear means that the wing will get lift while on the ground and reduce tire loading and therefore reduce stopping performance. I don't know how stopping distance for the A320neo and 737max will compare. I was not trying to say that one is better than the other, but rather point out that the nose down attitude improved stopping distance and allowed for a smaller lighter nose gear since it was shorter.

[Edited 2015-12-08 14:26:37]

Egerton · Tue Dec 08, 2015 10:41 pm

Boeing have had a very quiet roll out. But then they have a lot to be quiet about. I hope the Max will provide Airbus with stronger competition than seems apparent just now.

Ruscoe · Tue Dec 08, 2015 11:13 pm

Quoting StTim (Reply 98):
marketing speak and as we know it has been repeated so often it becomes accepted fact. It may be true under specific considerations but yu could take other scenarios where it isn't true. It sort of reminds me of VW

I thought you guys would be happy, because it means the 320 LEAP will be performing also.

Quoting KELPkid (Reply 112):
Just me or is the landing gear taller?

I thought it looked taller also but the frame is "production" complete, not "customer" complete so it will be quite light.

Ruscoe

Ruscoe · Tue Dec 08, 2015 11:21 pm

Quoting StTim (Reply 102):
I thought the most interesting word in there was "Intend"

It hasn't flown, what else can they say.

Just reading many of the comments here, for a program which is going very well, you can see why Boeing kept this a low key event, just in case.

Ruscoe

EPA001 · Tue Dec 08, 2015 11:27 pm

Quoting astuteman (Reply 106):
Is it perhaps worth pointing out that airlines that assessed both types, and are perhaps a tad more independent, are said to have put the difference at around 2 percent per seat?

That sounds about right. If the difference was 8% per seat the neo would hardly be selling against the MAX. But the opposite is the case.....

Quoting astuteman (Reply 106):
That was said before the rumoured issue with the Leap 1B's SFC, and P+W's promise of a 2%-3% PIP on the A320 by 2018.

Indeed, the bigger clearance under the wing is a huge advantage for the A320 in several ways. No doubt in the future that advantage will become more and more decisive.

But this is Boeing's day with the roll out of the B737-MAX. A beautiful aircraft that will make tons of money for Boeing and their customers. I hope to be on it as a passenger soon though i still need to exercise some patience for that.

JAAlbert · Tue Dec 08, 2015 11:43 pm

It seems from the photos that the MAX is sitting a bit higher on its landing gear. Is this correct, or is it just an illusion created by the photos?

crimsonchin · Tue Dec 08, 2015 11:59 pm

I was hoping those winglets or whatever Boeing is calling them would somehow look better irl than in the renderings, but nope, still ugly. At least they look distinctive and not boring, just ugly.

The rest of the plane looks like a 737. Congrats to Boeing though, hope everything goes smoothly from hereon forward.

Revelation · Wed Dec 09, 2015 12:33 am

Quoting StTim (Reply 23):
One of the changes as I understand it is the length of the nose gear to allow the larger fans to fit. So to my mind this is going to give the MAX a slightly nose up attitude.

Quoting lightsaber (Reply 52):
Yes, the front gear is longer.

Quoting CrimsonNL (Reply 78):
increased length of the nose gear strut.

Quoting KELPkid (Reply 112):
Just me or is the landing gear taller?

Quoting roseflyer (Reply 117):
The taller nose gear

Quoting JAAlbert (Reply 122):
It seems from the photos that the MAX is sitting a bit higher on its landing gear.

Uhm, yes, it looks taller, because the front gear is longer...

bellancacf · Wed Dec 09, 2015 12:46 am

Here's a (lone?) vote for the split scimitar wingtips, which appeal to me: I think they are well-shaped, give definition to the wingtip better than other winglets, and remind me, at least, of a hawk's primaries in strong flight. I'm looking forward to seeing them around.

Boeing778X · Wed Dec 09, 2015 12:47 am

I agree with what one user said up there. The 737 MAX looks very athletic, despite the age of the basic design. The AT winglets, tailcone, bigger engines, the chevrons and taller stance, along with all the angles and curves give it presence and athleticism. I wouldn't change anything about it!

Now, that being said, the A320neo has a much more clean look to it; not boring, rather nice to look at, but not as exciting looking as the MAX with all the details. I'm more excited for the A321neo, which will look great with the large engines.

Just my

Quoting bellancacf (Reply 125):
Here's a (lone?) vote for the split scimitar wingtips, which appeal to me: I think they are well-shaped, give definition to the wingtip better than other winglets, and remind me, at least, of a hawk's primaries in strong flight. I'm looking forward to seeing them around.

You're not alone! I love the Scimitars! They give a good flare to the NGs, almost a sweeping motion look

[Edited 2015-12-08 16:52:31]

yeelep · Wed Dec 09, 2015 12:52 am

Quoting roseflyer (Reply 117):

I think the higher nose gear will be a non issue. When the NG was developed they raised the main gear and left the nose gear alone. So they are just returning to the same rake as the Classics have.

Quoting MaverickTTT (Reply 116):
Quoting by738 (Reply 111):
cue repeated incident reports of winglet damage on ramp... recipe for disaster

I said the same when split scimitars went into service. So far, I've been wrong.

The split scimitars are very close to the same height as the wingtips of the 737 classics. Apart from being more difficult to see, there was never any reason they would be more susceptible to ground damage.

Quoting Ruscoe (Reply 119):
Quoting KELPkid (Reply 112):
Just me or is the landing gear taller?

I thought it looked taller also but the frame is "production" complete, not "customer" complete so it will be quite light.

It also has no fuel in it.

wolbo · Wed Dec 09, 2015 1:10 am

Never liked the looks of the 737, although the original model with those long engines had a certain stubby charm to it. Agree with others that the nose looks completely out-of-date but the MAX is undoubtedly an improvement compared to the NG. The higher legs and longer tail give the plane a more dynamic and modern appearance.

aerokiwi · Wed Dec 09, 2015 2:02 am

So it does appear to be a "flat" attitude, fortunately. The appearance of a slight nose up attitude is likely the tow tug, which I've noticed especially with A32Xs being towed around the ramp.

I gotta say I think the aircraft looks far more proportioned to the engines and I love thee new tailcone and winglets. I think the 321NEO will look great too but the 320NEO looks a little comical with its giant engines - maybe when liveried up it will look more seamless. Can only imagine what the 319NEO will look like.

Though they have lost their distinctive flattened bottom edge altgether at the intake, I like their sleekness.

A shame the window line wasn't lifted slightly, but the Sky Interior certainly helps.

Eagleboy · Wed Dec 09, 2015 2:08 am

Quoting bobdino (Reply 92):
......................Combined with the winglets, re-lofted tail cone and other changes, Boeing still intends to deliver the 737 Max with a 14% overall improvement in specific fuel consumption.........

Quoting StTim (Reply 102):
I thought the most interesting word in there was "Intend"

Nice spot guys!

flightsimer · Wed Dec 09, 2015 2:38 am

I love it.

The new til cone looks great.
The winglets I like better than the split scimitars currently being delivered.

But like others have said, the entire plane looks proportional for the first time. That was actually the very first thing I noticed. With the A320NEO, the engines just look too big.

Can't wait to eventually fly one.

bucky707 · Wed Dec 09, 2015 2:48 am

You can only put so much lipstick on a pig.

vatveng · Wed Dec 09, 2015 2:52 am

Quoting aerokiwi (Reply 129):
Though they have lost their distinctive flattened bottom edge altgether at the intake, I like their sleekness.

They still look flat-bottomed to me. Although not as dramatic as the NG, they look like they're slightly squished.

PEK777 · Wed Dec 09, 2015 3:01 am

It just isn't a good looking airplane - and that is a scientific fact. Part of it might be the confused and busy paint job, but it lacks a certain aggression. Airtrain 737-700 always looked aggressive as hell with the nose down pitch, winglets, and big ass tail. It looked like a big scorpion about to sting. This to me is bland like a current generation A320 series. Pointy nose or dolphin nose...take your pick.

roseflyer · Wed Dec 09, 2015 3:04 am

Quoting PEK777 (Reply 134):

It just isn't a good looking airplane - and that is a scientific fact.

Haha thanks for the good laugh. I never knew the whether a plane looks good or not can be proven by scientific fact.

gatibosgru · Wed Dec 09, 2015 4:38 am

Looks good! Excited for the NEO/MAX era!

Boeing778X · Wed Dec 09, 2015 4:40 am

Quoting PEK777 (Reply 134):
It just isn't a good looking airplane - and that is a scientific fact

LOL, What? That's hilarious! Thanks for the laugh

Neither is the A380.

Quoting bucky707 (Reply 132):
You can only put so much lipstick on a pig.

Wow, so many haters! Sure, let's love the A320neo only!

StrandedAtMKG · Wed Dec 09, 2015 4:51 am

I hate to add to the chorus of negative nancies, but except for the communications pod aft of the wing and the split scimitars she looks like something straight out of 1967. I'd still much rather fly a 737 versus an A320, but it's time for something new and exciting. Bring on the MOM.

PlanesNTrains · Wed Dec 09, 2015 5:25 am

While I'm not a huge fan of the MAX, I think there will be a time down the road where it'll be nice to have something retro looking in the skies. I just hope they can get the thing close to spec - or better.

-Dave

Boeing778X · Wed Dec 09, 2015 5:50 am

Quoting gatibosgru (Reply 136):
Looks good! Excited for the NEO/MAX era!

Me too! The near future seems exciting!

Quoting StrandedAtMKG (Reply 138):
I'd still much rather fly a 737 versus an A320, but it's time for something new and exciting. Bring on the MOM.

The NSA/MoM/NMA will arrive in due time!

Now please don't take what I'm about to say as gospel, but I read an Airways Mag article yesterday about the 737 MAX rollout, and the writer suggested that some industry experts are suggesting that Boeing may actually be in the early stages of development for the MoM at this point.

I can't confirm 100% if that's true. I'll include a quote and link:

Quote:
Meanwhile, Airbus’ stretched A321 is what many airlines are now choosing to replace their 757s, with domestic legacies like American and Delta both adding A321s. Many within the industry expect that Boeing is currently developing an enhanced 757-style derivative, what is tentatively called the NMA, or “Next Midsize Aircraft,” likely to be dubbed the 797 once it is officially on the market, entering service no earlier than 2022.

http://airwaysnews.com/blog/2015/12/08/first-737-max/

Quoting PEK777 (Reply 134):
It just isn't a good looking airplane - and that is a scientific fact.

And another thing. This is coming from the guy who said that the 777X wasn't a done deal, even though 6 customers ordered it, has gone through a firm configuration and has it's line being assembled as we speak.

The heck you lecture us on "scientific fact." Truth is, the 737 is a beautiful looking plane! Who cares if it's 50 years old! No one looks at a P-51 or DC-3 and says they're ugly!

seahawk · Wed Dec 09, 2015 6:14 am

Looks like a 737. The wording used about the performance targets is bit discomforting though.

jrfspa320 · Wed Dec 09, 2015 6:29 am

Seems from a spotters points of view both the A320NEO and 737 MAX are so boringly similar to the previous generation...I think the changes from the 737 classics to the NG were much bigger...all this fan fare about the roll outs and then..oh meh basically the same

gatibosgru · Wed Dec 09, 2015 7:06 am

I don't know what the disappointment is all about. Haven't we known these would be the changes all along?

solnabo · Wed Dec 09, 2015 7:10 am

B737 - Groundhugger to the Max

aerokiwi · Wed Dec 09, 2015 7:14 am

Quoting PEK777 (Reply 134):
It just isn't a good looking airplane - and that is a scientific fact.

Ha! Perfect.

Quoting jrfspa320 (Reply 142):
all this fan fare about the roll outs and then..oh meh basically the same

Actually, the difference with this roll-out is how LITTLE fanfare there is.

Quoting gatibosgru (Reply 143):
Haven't we known these would be the changes all along?

Yes. I guess some haven't been paying attention.

andrej · Wed Dec 09, 2015 7:15 am

I like it and it looks little different than I have expected. Certainly, it will be easy to spot B737 Classic and NG vs. Max. It got new legs!

ATA L1011 · Wed Dec 09, 2015 7:23 am

Would love to see a pic of the Jurassic, Classic with and without winglets, New Gen with and without winglets and the Max sorta like they did the Boeing family pic that they did from the 707 to 777 at Boeing field once. Most casual observers besides us in here would hardly tell the differences from the Classic to Max, Jurassic would be easy to tell although!

PM · Wed Dec 09, 2015 7:46 am

I think it looks good. The 737 has never been a "looker" but with each revision it has improved. This is the best yet.

enzo011 · Wed Dec 09, 2015 7:59 am

Quoting Boeing778X (Reply 140):
The heck you lecture us on "scientific fact." Truth is, the 737 is a beautiful looking plane!

I see...lets laugh at the one making a joke (I hope) about the looks being factually hideous...and you state that it is a universal truth that it is beautiful...

(A joke as well I hope)

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