ndhair37
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London Decision "Imminent"

Wed Nov 25, 2015 3:26 pm

The rumour mill in London has been in absolute hyperdrive in the last week as to what they expect to happen. Whilst Heathrow has been really kicking out Press Releases in the last couple of days such as over 30 British airports backing Heathrow expansion and some other bits and pieces to do with the extra £100bn or so economic benefit over Gatwick, it seems like they're gearing up for good news. Gatwick, on the other hand, have been winding down.

In short, Caroline Lucas, the Green Party MP in the Southern United Kingdom, has said today that a decision is coming. When the results of the Davies Report came out, it was the day before it was announced that people found out that it was on the way at 07:00 the next day. Could the same thing be happening tomorrow in light of the Spending Review today?

Personally speaking, I'm still in favour of Heathrow expansion but have mixed reviews. I like the Heathrow Hub for the early morning arrivals on the "further away" runway; and I like Heathrow's own brand because it obviously splits traffic up and you could go a whole week without landings on one runway (for example). Let's see what happens.
 
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MrHMSH
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RE: London Decision "Imminent"

Wed Nov 25, 2015 3:38 pm

They should do both LGW and LHR just to make sure. LHR's would be harder to push through because there's less green space and more people affected by noise pollution. And more NIMBYs.
 
anstar
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RE: London Decision "Imminent"

Wed Nov 25, 2015 3:45 pm

Quoting MrHMSH (Reply 1):
They should do both LGW and LHR just to make sure

LGW & LHR could both do with expansion. There is enough demand.
 
TC957
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RE: London Decision "Imminent"

Wed Nov 25, 2015 3:47 pm

The decision may be imminent, but I fear the action far from it.
 
jumpjets
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RE: London Decision "Imminent"

Wed Nov 25, 2015 4:13 pm

Quoting TC957 (Reply 3):
The decision may be imminent, but I fear the action far from it.

Very true when you look back on the length of time it took to approve T5 at LHR.

Not wanting to pre-guess what the decision will be, I think we know that if it follows the Davies report in favour of LHR expansion then every level of the UK planning consent laws will be used by parties on both sides of the argument to try and ensure their views prevail and ultimately the decision will end up with the Secretary of State.

Given that is the case is it not possible for the government just to declare 'one big' public enquiry (and save a couple of years [if not more] of what in effect will be preliminary skirmishes) and actually get a legally binding decision made one way or another?
 
kaitak
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RE: London Decision "Imminent"

Wed Nov 25, 2015 4:17 pm

Quoting TC957 (Reply 3):
The decision may be imminent, but I fear the action far from it.

They've been messing around for a long time, so I do hope that once the decision is made, they will begin the process. There is undoubtedly going to be a long time before the bulldozers and other construction equipment move in, not least because there will probably be a public inquiry, not to mention lots of legal actions - possibly to the EU as well. These could take 3-4 years, at least, and there will be vexatious actions as well (I,e, purchases of small land holdings by individuals and groups with the sole aim of delaying or blocking the process).

I agree that both LHR and LGW should get runways, but it's likely to be just LHR.
 
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readytotaxi
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RE: London Decision "Imminent"

Wed Nov 25, 2015 4:28 pm

Quoting kaitak (Reply 5):

Agree with all of that.
If it were comfirmed this year I doubt we would see a plane take off before 2021, and given the present politics around the world then air travel might well be a different animal by then.
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PlymSpotter
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RE: London Decision "Imminent"

Wed Nov 25, 2015 4:38 pm

This time it isn't just the decision which is imminent.

There is an actionable plan with funding and intent to take it forward ASAP. HAL are not going to let this one rest.


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ndhair37
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RE: London Decision "Imminent"

Wed Nov 25, 2015 5:23 pm

From what I can recall, the Transport Secretary Patrick McLoughlin said as soon as the report was published that he expected to be getting planning permission as quickly as possible. I am very much hoping that the "false start" in 2009 which was then cancelled will be upheld and that nobody will try and delay the inevitable by giving us a load of ludicrous judicial reviews.
 
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par13del
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RE: London Decision "Imminent"

Wed Nov 25, 2015 9:48 pm

So the imminent announcement is what, that a firm decision will be made by mid next year on whether or not LHR will get a new runway, and in the interim, other options not sanctioned by the Davies report will be given a secondary review?

This is going to be long
 
ndhair37
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RE: London Decision "Imminent"

Wed Nov 25, 2015 9:54 pm

The imminent announcement should be which Airport will be offered the go-ahead for the second runway.
 
seansasLCY
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RE: London Decision "Imminent"

Wed Nov 25, 2015 10:07 pm

Quoting ndhair37 (Thread starter):
In short, Caroline Lucas, the Green Party MP in the Southern United Kingdom, has said today that a decision is coming.

Caroline Lucas is not a member of the Government and therefore wouldn't have any idea what announcement the Government is about to make before any ordinary member of the public would.

A decision is due soon but I don't think it will be made tomorrow. I understand it is due to be made before Christmas but given the mayoral election in London next year it wouldn't surprise me to see it delayed.
 
ndhair37
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RE: London Decision "Imminent"

Wed Nov 25, 2015 10:13 pm

Quoting seansasLCY (Reply 11):

Do you think things don't find their way out? Crikey. Blinkers.
 
Beatyair
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RE: London Decision "Imminent"

Wed Nov 25, 2015 10:22 pm

Whatever happens it will be hell in southern England.

I still would like to see a brand new airport in the right spot and the zoning around it properly done like Mexico City, Istanbul, Beijing, Hong Kong, Denver have done.

They should give the runway to Gatwick.
 
seansasLCY
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RE: London Decision "Imminent"

Wed Nov 25, 2015 10:48 pm

Quoting ndhair37 (Reply 12):
Do you think things don't find their way out? Crikey. Blinkers.

Of course they do but as I said if Caroline Lucas knows then more than a few of the general public would know too.

If it was leaked it would be the Tory MPs around LHR who have opposed it who would be speaking to the press and would certainly be given more attention because it would portray Tory infighting.

Quoting Beatyair (Reply 13):
They should give the runway to Gatwick.

Personally I think LHR, LGW and STN should all be allowed to build an additional runway providing no public money is involved. The airlines can then decide but I predict many will rush to LHR.
 
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TedToToe
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RE: London Decision "Imminent"

Wed Nov 25, 2015 10:57 pm

If it goes the way of LHR, politically, it's going to be a very bumpy ride!

Quoting ndhair37 (Thread starter):
I like the Heathrow Hub for the early morning arrivals on the "further away" runway; and I like Heathrow's own brand because it obviously splits traffic up and you could go a whole week without landings on one runway (for example).

I find it ironic that certain residents of Richmond oppose LHR expansion and yet, due to the more westerly runway, would benefit from a greater degree of noise respite than today!

Quoting Beatyair (Reply 13):
I still would like to see a brand new airport in the right spot.......

They should give the runway to Gatwick.

Gatwick is far from "the right spot" based on population and economic activity within London and the South East.

Quoting seansasLCY (Reply 11):
Caroline Lucas is not a member of the Government and therefore wouldn't have any idea what announcement the Government is about to make before any ordinary member of the public would.

Behind the scenes the Government will be 'sounding out' the other political parties and, most notably, the SNP. Whilst the Greens are unlikely to be involved in such discussions, news travels.
 
gilesdavies
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RE: London Decision "Imminent"

Wed Nov 25, 2015 11:10 pm

We'll still be here in five years time, and no construction will have begin...

Regardless of the location chosen, it will do through judicial reviews and local residents will take it through every court in the land, and how their human rights are effected.

If LHR is chosen, it will probably be ten years from now!

Opportunity for Stansted and Luton to cash-in, in the mean time when both LHR and LGW are completely congested they will be the only London alternatives.
 
steve6666
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RE: London Decision "Imminent"

Wed Nov 25, 2015 11:21 pm

Quoting Beatyair (Reply 13):
They should give the runway to Gatwick.

No. No. They really shouldn't.

How do you propose non-transfer pax get to LGW given:
- it's on a railway line that is operating at capacity and has no medium term programme announced to increase that capacity
- it's located in the far south east corner of the country, due south of an infamous motorway ring road that really doesn't need additional traffic travelling half way round it to get to the M23.

Heathrow at least is located much closer to radial routes out of London (A3, M3, M4, M40, M1, A1) and can relatively easily link up with the Great Western Mainline from the west, the Windsor Lines out of Waterloo (if the council pulls its finger out of its @$$) and, if I remember the HS2 proposals properly, HS2.
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scbriml
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RE: London Decision "Imminent"

Thu Nov 26, 2015 12:00 am

Quoting ndhair37 (Reply 10):
The imminent announcement should be which Airport will be offered the go-ahead for the second runway.

Freudian slip?

Quoting Beatyair (Reply 13):
They should give the runway to Gatwick.

Only after Heathrow gets a third and Stansted gets a second.   
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lightsaber
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RE: London Decision "Imminent"

Thu Nov 26, 2015 12:47 am

Quoting scbriml (Reply 18):

LHR needs the 3rd
LGW needs 2 operating simultaneously (taxi way in between)
STN also needs 2

But I've lost hope. I've been following the LHR expansion since the 1980s... And waiting... And waiting...

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tortugamon
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RE: London Decision "Imminent"

Thu Nov 26, 2015 4:10 am

Quoting lightsaber (Reply 19):
LHR needs the 3rd
LGW needs 2 operating simultaneously (taxi way in between)
STN also needs 2

Precisely. Being the busiest single and twin runway airports in the World is nothing to aspire to. Hope they get their act together but really that ship has sailed. AMS, CDG, MAD, DXB, AUH, IST, and DOH are all very happy that London has absolutely mismanaged their truly special assets.

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AirlineCritic
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RE: London Decision "Imminent"

Thu Nov 26, 2015 4:40 am

I'm not sure there should be expansion at either one.

British airports seem to be badly mismanaged. Changing planes is a disaster, security is a disaster, heaven forbid you had checked luggage, any airport is far away from the city to begin with, etc.

Maybe the right answer is that commercial aviation at least as much as long haul & hubs are concerned should grow elsewhere in Europe.
 
Lentini2001
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RE: London Decision "Imminent"

Thu Nov 26, 2015 7:49 am

Perhaps its time we needed a sub section on the forum completely devoted to topics about heathrow? I'm sure I see more on this than any other topic on this forum...
 
uta999
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RE: London Decision "Imminent"

Thu Nov 26, 2015 9:32 am

The UK Government will take the decision away from local planning. It will be the first major project to
use the new Infrastructure Act 2015.

Heathrow currently uses westerly (over Central London) operations over 70% of the time due to the prevailing wind. This will be reversed to 70% easterly operations. With three very long runways and the average wind speed at Heathrow being less than 8 knots, mean this is very easily achieved.

At times when higher wind speed and direction dictate, the most northern (3rd) runway and the southern runway could operate in opposing directions. They are two miles apart, so perfectly safe.

The announcement may give a start date of next year and also include plans for a 4th runway to the southwest (easterly arrivals / westerly departures only).
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fcogafa
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RE: London Decision "Imminent"

Thu Nov 26, 2015 11:01 am

Quoting AirlineCritic (Reply 21):
British airports seem to be badly mismanaged. Changing planes is a disaster, security is a disaster, heaven forbid you had checked luggage, any airport is far away from the city to begin with, etc.

That is obviously why Heathrow has won multiple awards

http://www.heathrow.com/company/comp...and-information/performance/awards
 
vv701
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RE: London Decision "Imminent"

Thu Nov 26, 2015 11:21 am

Currently there is an operational 'westerly preference' for LHR departures. This means that the approach to LHR is over London not only when the prevailing westerlies are blowing. It is also over London when there is a (following) easterly wind of five knots or less.

This 'westerly preference' dates back to the 1960s when aircraft were at their nosiest when on maximum power to claw their way into the air. Today aircraft are quieter and climb more quickly. So the Davies Commission recommended that the 'westerly preference' be discontinued. This recommendation has since been supported by HAL.
 
BHXLOVER
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RE: London Decision "Imminent"

Thu Nov 26, 2015 11:28 am

I will honest and say that I hope LHR does not get an extra runway.

The UK has many regional airports that have plenty of existing capacity for growth. Heathrow is already drawing passengers away from other areas of the UK who could be using their local airports. I believe that given a choice, people would rather fly from their local airports, just as the often do when going on holiday.

It does not make any sense to me to chuck thousands of people out of their homes in order to build a new runway, when unused capacity already exists elsewhere.
 
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Thunderboltdrgn
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RE: London Decision "Imminent"

Thu Nov 26, 2015 11:43 am

Quoting AirlineCritic (Reply 21):
any airport is far away from the city to begin with, etc.

Well LHR is ~30km Leicster square, ARN is about 40km from Sergels torg. OSL
is about 50km from central Oslo,,,

[Edited 2015-11-26 03:44:45]
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YXXMIKE
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RE: London Decision "Imminent"

Thu Nov 26, 2015 12:02 pm

This is obviously going to be a decision that's made on politics and not on technical merit because if technical merit was the basis for a decision LHR would have a third runway and LGW would have it's second and would have been operating for some time.

Living in the UK for the past few years I now understand why major decision making is such a slow process; the politicians which run the country (including the opposition government) want to be in politics for life and as such need to make the popular decision and not always the right decision. Hence why the UK has a 35b GBP per year interest payment on it's debt...it's not able to make the hard decisions without career politicians getting in the way with the popular/easier/softer decision.
 
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cougar15
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RE: London Decision "Imminent"

Thu Nov 26, 2015 1:21 pm

Quoting MrHMSH (Reply 1):
And more NIMBYs.

Forgive my ingnorance, but what do these 'NIMBYs´ stand for. I keep reading it, am a native english speaker but cant for the life of me work out what the abreviation stands for  
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BHXLOVER
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RE: London Decision "Imminent"

Thu Nov 26, 2015 1:26 pm

Not in my back yard.
 
ahmetdouas
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RE: London Decision "Imminent"

Thu Nov 26, 2015 1:41 pm

LHR needs another runway ASAP! I am fed up with holding over Biggin Hill for 20-30 minutes each time I fly in from ATH. When i told the BA pilot after landing about this, he didn't look best pleased at me. I told him Heathrow needs a new runway ASAP.

What a waste! And this slot nonsense is more than a joke for such a major hub. If developing markets need to fly to LHR, let them fly to LHR. No need for capacity limits that ruin the economy. And LGW expansion is more than a joke, how can LHR be a transit hub if you land at LGW or even STN and then take 2 hours to get from airport to airport? It's enough of a mess for me that when i fly into London from Athens, sometimes I fly to STN, sometimes LGW and sometimes LHR depending on the price of the airline ticket.

I want one airport for London, expanding LHR would help the UK economy immensely and allow many new markets for the country. Forget STN's short haul EU approach or even LGW's holiday approach. LHR needs expansion to Africa, South America and new places in Asia, and that can only happen as part of a BA flag carrier expansion in LHR.

LHR is by no means in central London, I studied at Royal Holloway, University of London which is about 10 km from the airport and directly under the 'westerly takeoff' flight path. Really didn't bother me during the day, you get used to it. And at night there are no flights anyway. So the greenies have no excuse to complain.

This runway should have been built 20 years ago, as soon as the slots in LHR started being a serious problem. It is the only airport within Greater London.

Stansted, Gatwick and Luton are not even in London! So calling them London airports is a joke!
 
AVFCdownunder
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RE: London Decision "Imminent"

Thu Nov 26, 2015 1:45 pm

NIMBY - as above, basically means someone who may well be in favour of change, as long as it doesn't affect them personally. ie noise, house prices, inconvenience etc.

What I am curious about is what sort of decision is anticipated - there are a few on the agenda.

LHR expansion v Boris Island
LHR expansion - if so in what format, new runway, extended runways etc
Priorities for expansion - LHR, LGW, STN

Any idea what exactly they are due to decide upon?
 
ahmetdouas
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RE: London Decision "Imminent"

Thu Nov 26, 2015 1:50 pm

Quoting AVFCdownunder (Reply 32):

Boris island is ridiculously expensive and it would ruin many livelihoods by killing the entire area around LHR , all that investment going to waste. LHR is the only practical option as it is already the hub, and has room for expansion without ruining too many things. LHR is not surrounded by housing on all sides, towards the west it is mainly reservoirs and parkland that can be easily replaced. Some people make it seem like LHR is right next to Buckingham Palace or something and expending it will mean taking the palace down!
 
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scbriml
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RE: London Decision "Imminent"

Thu Nov 26, 2015 1:59 pm

Quoting BHXLOVER (Reply 26):
The UK has many regional airports that have plenty of existing capacity for growth. Heathrow is already drawing passengers away from other areas of the UK who could be using their local airports. I believe that given a choice, people would rather fly from their local airports, just as the often do when going on holiday.

The airlines don't agree with you. The VAST majority of pax flying to the UK want to be in or around London. Those people do not want to fly to Birmingham or Manchester or Edinburgh. Connection options at those regional airports are also significantly worse than at Heathrow.
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MrHMSH
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RE: London Decision "Imminent"

Thu Nov 26, 2015 2:01 pm

Quoting cougar15 (Reply 29):

Forgive my ingnorance, but what do these 'NIMBYs´ stand for.

As above, it stands for Not In My Back Yard. It's essentially people who are not necessarily opposed to the construction of airport runways/railway lines/power stations... major infrastructure, but don't want it near them. AVFCdownunder describes the main reasons well:

Quoting AVFCdownunder (Reply 32):
noise, house prices, inconvenience

  

In the UK, NIMBYs tend to protest loudly and publicly, and they are one of the reasons that UK construction projects take so long, because they use all possible ways to protest, delay and stop them. They are, however, a minority.

Quoting BHXLOVER (Reply 26):
The UK has many regional airports that have plenty of existing capacity for growth. Heathrow is already drawing passengers away from other areas of the UK who could be using their local airports. I believe that given a choice, people would rather fly from their local airports, just as the often do when going on holiday.

For this to work would need need brave airlines to try point-to-point routes, and for the public near those airports to put their money where their mouth is and make it economically viable by flying on them enough to justify service. It becomes easier with the likes of the 787 (particularly the 788) and the A321LR, but we're still not seeing too much, certainly not as much as I would like. DY would be the type of airline you'd expect to fly these routes, but they've not opened any long haul bases in the UK other than LGW. As far as I know. It also means that transfer traffic and potential will bypass the UK, because a hub airport needs to be at one airport, and the likes of MAN, BHX, EDI and GLA do not currently justify service to the destinations that are more likely to use Europe as a transfer point. I agree that the spare capacity at these airports and the even smaller ones should be used more, but it should be alongside rather than instead of LGR/LGW expansion.

Quoting AVFCdownunder (Reply 32):
Any idea what exactly they are due to decide upon?

I believe the proposal has been narrowed to LHR 3rd runway OR LGW 2nd,, specifically not both, which I disagree wholeheartedly with. Boris Island isn't on the agenda, and neither is STN (or LTN, LCY or SEN but we already know that).
 
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GCT64
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RE: London Decision "Imminent"

Thu Nov 26, 2015 2:03 pm

Quoting AVFCdownunder (Reply 32):

LHR expansion v Boris Island
LHR expansion - if so in what format, new runway, extended runways etc
Priorities for expansion - LHR, LGW, STN

Any idea what exactly they are due to decide upon?

most options have already been rejected (including Boris Island), so we are down to:

A 3rd runway at LHR; or
A 2nd runway at LGW
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AVFCdownunder
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RE: London Decision "Imminent"

Thu Nov 26, 2015 2:07 pm

Quoting AVFCdownunder (Reply 32):
"Any idea what exactly they are due to decide upon?

I believe the proposal has been narrowed to LHR 3rd runway OR LGW 2nd,, specifically not both, which I disagree wholeheartedly with. Boris Island isn't on the agenda, and neither is STN (or LTN, LCY or SEN but we already know that)."

Thanks for the clarification.
 
bmacleod
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RE: London Decision "Imminent"

Thu Nov 26, 2015 2:35 pm

Good question - how many people will be forced out of their homes around LHR so the 3rd runway can proceed?

Sorry but there are many factors to be considered here.

There is much more open undeveloped space around LGW - seems the logical choice.

[Edited 2015-11-26 06:35:48]
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jumpjet
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RE: London Decision "Imminent"

Thu Nov 26, 2015 3:05 pm

Quoting YXXMIKE (Reply 28):
his is obviously going to be a decision that's made on politics and not on technical merit because if technical merit was the basis for a decision LHR would have a third runway and LGW would have it's second and would have been operating for some time.

Living in the UK for the past few years I now understand why major decision making is such a slow process; the politicians which run the country (including the opposition government) want to be in politics for life and as such need to make the popular decision and not always the right decision. Hence why the UK has a 35b GBP per year interest payment on it's debt...it's not able to make the hard decisions without career politicians getting in the way with the popular/easier/softer decision.

Absolutely agree! Most politicians seem to have one eye on re-election at the end of the five year period in government, so they're unwilling to take unpopular decisions which might prevent them getting back in next time around. They just delay matters in the hope that someone else will eventually have to deal with it.....
 
jumpjets
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RE: London Decision "Imminent"

Thu Nov 26, 2015 3:07 pm

Quoting MrHMSH (Reply 35):
In the UK, NIMBYs tend to protest loudly and publicly, and they are one of the reasons that UK construction projects take so long, because they use all possible ways to protest, delay and stop them. They are, however, a minority.

They are a class of person generally derided, for looking after their own interests, frequently by people whose daily lives are in no way disturbed by the decision that the NIMBYs are opposing.

I live more or less under the flight path to LHR and support a 3rd runway but do get irritated by people who have nothing to lose criticising those who do for trying to oppose the expansion.

Moan over.
 
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par13del
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RE: London Decision "Imminent"

Thu Nov 26, 2015 3:17 pm

Quoting bmacleod (Reply 38):
There is much more open undeveloped space around LGW - seems the logical choice.

Well, logic based on what, per past LHR threads:
1. LGW transport infrastructure to London proper is lacking
2. New High Speed Rail may or may not include links to LGW
3. Connections at LGW are trivial compared to LHR
4. All carriers prefer LHR to other London airports
5. LGW is not in London, etc etc etc

Now in favour of LGW is the fact that slot holders at LHR may not like them devalued if additional slots are made available allowing any "Tom, Dick and Harry" to serve the airport at reasonable hours, the prestige factor may be tranished  
 
giblets
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RE: London Decision "Imminent"

Thu Nov 26, 2015 3:33 pm

Interesting, I've read that the rail link to the FGW line (rail line to the west of England for those who are unaware), has been approved for the next budget round. This will connect to T5.
Personally I always thought it odd the underground 'monorail' that Connects T5 to T5B etc did not go all the way to T3/ T2.
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SelseyBill
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RE: London Decision "Imminent"

Thu Nov 26, 2015 3:43 pm

Quoting BHXLOVER (Reply 26):
The UK has many regional airports that have plenty of existing capacity for growth.

Correct, though irrelevant. Heathrow expansion is all about improving intercontinental services for our main national hub airport. We have seen considerable intercontinental connectivity improvements at our main regional airports; (BHX/ MAN/ NCL/ EDI/ GLA etc); with new links such as those now provided by ME3, as well as superb connectivity via exiting european 'legacy' carriers; (AMS/ FRA/ CDG etc). These new links should not preclude the continued development of Heathrow.

Quoting BHXLOVER (Reply 26):
Heathrow is already drawing passengers away from other areas of the UK who could be using their local airports.

See above. Flying customers have an awful lot more choice now than they had a decade ago

Quoting BHXLOVER (Reply 26):
It does not make any sense to me to chuck thousands of people out of their homes in order to build a new runway........

Everybody who lives near Heathrow, knew it was there when they moved into their houses; they knew subsequent development would likely effect their properties; and likely knew the levels of compensation. Many residents work at the airport; hell; many houses were built in the Harmondsworth and Sipson Village areas specifically for LHR workers. The irony here is that many residents bemoan Heathrow development; but would be first in the queue for litigation if Heathrow were moved to North Kent.
 
PlymSpotter
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RE: London Decision "Imminent"

Thu Nov 26, 2015 3:43 pm

Quoting BHXLOVER (Reply 26):
The UK has many regional airports that have plenty of existing capacity for growth. Heathrow is already drawing passengers away from other areas of the UK who could be using their local airports. I believe that given a choice, people would rather fly from their local airports, just as the often do when going on holiday.

This self-demonstrates to be factually incorrect - if there was an appetite for greater growth of services in the regions to take over capacity from London's primary airports then it would have happened. After all, there are numerous incentives and no restrictions to it happening right now. What we actually see is AMS, FRA, CDG and now DUB drawing passengers away from Heathrow via the regional airports.

What actually happens is the opposite. With the exception of a few regional airports in the 'halo' of Heathrow (BHX, SOU, CMB etc...) the lack of capacity for domestic flights at LHR has significantly reduced the potential of the UK's regional airports (NQY, INV, HUM etc...). With a third runway and ring-fenced capacity the potential for the UK's regional airports to drive economic growth and connectivity is huge.

Quoting BHXLOVER (Reply 26):
It does not make any sense to me to chuck thousands of people out of their homes in order to build a new runway, when unused capacity already exists elsewhere.

Capacity in the wrong place is useless, it may as well not exist.


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giblets
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RE: London Decision "Imminent"

Thu Nov 26, 2015 4:59 pm

On the subject of locals complaining about noise, it's well documented that the aircraft get quieter every year, the CAA have a noise blueprint, it is pretty amazing comparing the 1974 with the 2013 figure.

http://www.heathrow.com/file_source/...tatic/heathrow_noise_blueprint.pdf
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vv701
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RE: London Decision "Imminent"

Thu Nov 26, 2015 5:10 pm

Quoting ahmetdouas (Reply 31):
What a waste! And this slot nonsense is more than a joke for such a major hub. If developing markets need to fly to LHR, let them fly to LHR. No need for capacity limits that ruin the economy

No slot nonsence. In its current single mode operation LHR operates close to the maximum number of landing slots possible. There is strong evidemce that ATC uses the two stacks that operate when arrivals are in a specific direction to separate smaller, single-aisle aircraft from larger twin aisle aircraft. This is, of course because the greater level of wake turbulence created by large aircraft. It also reflects the fact that a second twin-aisle aircraft can safely land when following another similar aircraft with a smaller separation than that between a twin-aisle followed by a single-aisle aircraft.

Be assured that when this happens

Quoting ahmetdouas (Reply 31):
I am fed up with holding over Biggin Hill for 20-30 minutes each time I fly in from ATH


it is not ATC trying to increase atmospheric and noise pollution.

The fact that ATC is playing a skilful juggling act to maximise the number of actual slots goes totally askew in adverse weather conditions. As soon as visibility significantly deteriorates then diversions start with the required increase in separation resulting in some aircraft running low on fuel while on hold in a stack. This despite the fact that theoretically many aircraft using the airport can autoland in almost any conditions. Here note that reduced visibility includes blizzard conditions. So it is visibility and not HAL's unpreparedness for clearing snow that causes some of the winter delays at LHR.

In summary in the Summer Season 2015 in any one hour period there were scheduled to be a minimum of 38 arrivals per hour (between 19:00 and 20:00 hrs UTC) and a maximum of 44 per hour (between both 17:00 and 18:00 and again between 20:00 and 21:00 hrs UCT).

Finally it is worth noting that the actual number of allocated weekly LHR slots is always lower in the winter because of likely weather and visibility conditions. So in Summer 2015 there were 9,618 allocated weekly arrival and departure slots. The equivalent number for the current Winter Season is 9,218. Both these numbers are have changed on those for the previous year. In the Summer Season the weekly ATMs were 54 fewer at 9,564 in 2014. It was reported that this small gain was due to amended ATC procedures. However the Winter 2015-16 number was 38 fewer than in the previous year. Then the total was 9,256 weekly slots. I have seen no explanation for this reduction. But it could, for example, be because the total number of slots include a greater proportion for heavy twin-aisle aircraft.

[Data source: Airport Coordination Ltd web site.]
 
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lightsaber
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RE: London Decision "Imminent"

Thu Nov 26, 2015 5:22 pm

Quoting tortugamon (Reply 20):

I would add even more hubs happy London has mismanaged their airport system. By denying the home airlines frequency and even destinations. Many competitors have been given quite an opportunity. Even the most basic game theory proves this.

It is too late for LHR to build to fully benefit from the A321LR. Talk about a missed opportunity...


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b747400erf
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RE: London Decision "Imminent"

Fri Nov 27, 2015 6:32 am

Quoting SelseyBill (Reply 43):
Everybody who lives near Heathrow, knew it was there when they moved into their houses; they knew subsequent development would likely effect their properties; and likely knew the levels of compensation

People are not aviation experts. They could not predict the large growth at all times outside of the curfew when they were purchasing their house. That is not fair to think they would know what the future of living by the airport would become.
 
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seahawk
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RE: London Decision "Imminent"

Fri Nov 27, 2015 7:15 am

Very difficult choice. From the air traffic side you need LHR, from the infrastructure side and from trying to cause a smaller impact on the population you should prefer LGW. I personally think LGW has a better chance of actually happening.

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