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flight152
Posts: 3533
Joined: Fri Nov 24, 2000 8:04 am

RE: Jetblue To Train Pilots From Scratch

Mon Nov 30, 2015 12:17 am

Quoting Jeff G (Reply 45):

I'd suggest you look up the definition of a "major airline". Because two "regional" airlines fall under that category.
 
flymia
Posts: 7137
Joined: Thu Jun 14, 2001 6:33 am

RE: Jetblue To Train Pilots From Scratch

Mon Nov 30, 2015 3:27 am

Quoting Jeff G (Reply 45):
I can see no practical justification - NONE - for doing this, not while there are thousands of pilots out there with - as you yourself admit - years of experience and thousands of hours in advanced aircraft who can't even get an interview.
Quoting Jeff G (Reply 47):
I can't fix all the ills in the industry, but I can call BS when I see my own company try something stupid.

I agree, that at this very moment there is no need for this. Honestly, I think the University gateway program would do just fine for B6. At the same time, maybe they are just preparing for 10 years down the road. Clearly this is an issue just for you because its B6 doing it. While I understand your viewpoint, at the same time, we have fresh 1500hr and under pilots flying planes almost just as large as the ERJ-190 and in the same exact airports.

What is the difference for a 1,000hr out of UND pilot flying a Republic E-170 out of MIA to ATL then a 1,500hr pilot, trained by B6 themselves flying from DCA to FLL in an ERJ-190?

There is none, there is no difference.

Quoting Dalmd88 (Reply 48):
The initial cost may be lower for the cadet, but they may be hurting themselves in the long run by limiting their options later in their career.

I would not be surprised to see them have the opportunity to pick those who already have four year degrees.
 
sierrakilo44
Posts: 681
Joined: Tue Dec 13, 2011 1:38 am

RE: Jetblue To Train Pilots From Scratch

Mon Nov 30, 2015 4:50 am

Quoting Jeff G (Reply 45):
Honestly, regionals aren't my problem. What they do and how they do it is on them. Putting rank newbies, no matter how well their sim sessions went or the classroom time they had, in JetBlue cockpits IS my problem. I can see no practical justification - NONE - for doing this, not while there are thousands of pilots out there with - as you yourself admit - years of experience and thousands of hours in advanced aircraft who can't even get an interview. It would be one thing if our backs were against the wall and we couldn't fill classes, or if such an issue were on the horizon. But that's not the case.

Maybe it's not the fact that Jetblue NEEDS to do this, maybe it's because it WANTS to do this. Most people think that cadet pilots only exist in places with little or no general aviation (Europe, ME, Asia) because this is the only way to get an airline's flight crew. Maybe they are doing this because the "cadet" style of training is a better way to train someone who will eventually be an airline captain. In Australia, Rex (albeit a regional carrier) states in this article they are now preferring to take candidates who come through their own cadet scheme, specifically geared towards multicrew training, rather than direct entry pilots who have accumulated 1500hrs+ of single pilot flying in GA:

“I don’t think it is a question of fairness but more what is the agenda behind the criticism,” Hall says. “Military pilots have even fewer training hours and yet are entrusted with sophisticated fighter jets. The number of training hours is only one parameter. Over at Rex we have followed up on the quality of the cadets by tracking quantitatively their performance at the twice yearly checks. We have found that the cadets have virtually the same performance standards as the direct entry pilots with more than 1500 hours experience even on the first year after graduation. Their performance standards overtake the direct entry ones from the second year.”
So why is a cadet fresh out of AAPA with minimal hours a better option for an airline job than a GA commercial pilot who has hands-on experience in the industry?
“Because a cadet graduate from AAPA is trained to be an airline pilot, they are trained to fly the aircraft by attitude and by procedure; they use daily the same procedures as most airlines will. The same format of FCOM and procedures manuals that most airlines will use, they use daily. They are taught from the very first day the discipline and approach of an airline pilot. In fact, it is often so much harder to unlearn the bad habits that the GA pilots bring to the airline from their previous operating environment."


http://aviatormag.com.au/wp/come-fly-with-us/

[Edited 2015-11-29 20:52:18]
 
Chaostheory
Posts: 1191
Joined: Wed Mar 06, 2013 2:09 am

RE: Jetblue To Train Pilots From Scratch

Mon Nov 30, 2015 7:17 am

It's not just a question of hours, but one of rigour and variety when it comes to pilot training. Couple that with the excellent piloting culture in the US which actually encourages flying the aeroplane and I can't see why anyone should have issue with B6's proposal.

However cadet training schemes in other parts of the world do concern me, but that's probably for another thread.
 
Jeff G
Posts: 440
Joined: Fri Jan 18, 2002 9:56 am

RE: Jetblue To Train Pilots From Scratch

Mon Nov 30, 2015 9:16 am

Quoting flymia (Reply 51):
What is the difference for a 1,000hr out of UND pilot flying a Republic E-170 out of MIA to ATL then a 1,500hr pilot, trained by B6 themselves flying from DCA to FLL in an ERJ-190?

There is none, there is no difference.

The difference is that Republic treats its pilots such that they can't fill classes and have left themselves with no choice in the matter. How Republic treats their pilots - and therefore whittles down the quality of their new hires - is not my concern. My concern - again - is that there are so many pilots with real world experience who are turned away without even an interview that it's foolish to turn them away in favor of non-pilots.

This is not a mere academic issue with me, as it is for most of you. I personally will be forced to deal with the consequences. Much of the time it won't matter, since much of the time nothing occurs outside the norm. It's when the norm goes bye-bye that it matters, and it'll be too late to complain then that the right seat guy doesn't have anything to offer.

Quoting flight152 (Reply 50):
I'd suggest you look up the definition of a "major airline". Because two "regional" airlines fall under that category.

I was referring to the role the airline plays in the marketplace, and the perceived quality of the carrier by a career pilot, not the DOT definition of "major" but I suspect you knew that.

I'm done here. I simply want to work with the best pilots available. The ramifications are blindingly obvious to me, yet most of you want to score debate points, or vicariously live out Walter Mitty daydreams of life in the right seat, or think it's cool that people such as yourselves might have an outside chance of flying an Airbus in a few short years starting from scratch. But this is a deadly serious endeavor that I've trained my whole adult life for, and since there are thousands of other pilots who have gone through the same time and commitment, I think it's better and safer for everyone if they are hired over someone with no experience at all. If the new guys want the same opportunity, they can do what all those pilots did - get some experience and real world knowledge, then apply.
 
sierrakilo44
Posts: 681
Joined: Tue Dec 13, 2011 1:38 am

RE: Jetblue To Train Pilots From Scratch

Mon Nov 30, 2015 10:47 am

Quoting Jeff G (Reply 54):
This is not a mere academic issue with me, as it is for most of you. I personally will be forced to deal with the consequences. Much of the time it won't matter, since much of the time nothing occurs outside the norm. It's when the norm goes bye-bye that it matters, and it'll be too late to complain then that the right seat guy doesn't have anything to offer.

I can tell you, from personal experience, your fears are unfounded. If it's anything to go by, in Australia we have had a range of pilots in our airlines who have come from a mix of cadet and non-cadet backgrounds since the 1960's. All of us are all trained to a high standard, and all perform to a high standard, even when conditions are "outside the norm". It really is impossible to tell which pilot came from which background. In America you have good training and a high safety culture as well so the graduates of this program will be similarly successful.





[Edited 2015-11-30 03:11:44]
 
crj200faguy
Posts: 182
Joined: Wed May 30, 2007 12:07 pm

RE: Jetblue To Train Pilots From Scratch

Mon Nov 30, 2015 11:08 am

Jeff G you sound like a bitter ex comair und grad. I work at a regional and about a decade ago we had problems with people like you. They were nasty and bashed all the guys coming from Gulfstream. I told an FO one day that if you're a crappy pilot you're a crappy pilot no matter where you came from. And if you're a good pilot you're a good pilot no matter where you came from. You sound a little too stressed out over this. Maybe you need to find another line of work if you think you cannot handle the pressure of your job. Your name doesn't happen to be Clayton Osborn is it?
 
Jeff G
Posts: 440
Joined: Fri Jan 18, 2002 9:56 am

RE: Jetblue To Train Pilots From Scratch

Mon Nov 30, 2015 6:13 pm

Yeah, posting here was a mistake. No attempt to engage the apparently uncontroversial central idea - experienced pilots are preferable to non-pilots - just personal attacks. Congrats, you pushed me out of the conversation. Talk amongst yourselves.
 
flymia
Posts: 7137
Joined: Thu Jun 14, 2001 6:33 am

RE: Jetblue To Train Pilots From Scratch

Tue Dec 01, 2015 3:23 am

Quoting Jeff G (Reply 57):
No attempt to engage the apparently uncontroversial central idea - experienced pilots are preferable to non-pilots - just personal attacks.

How is someone with 1500+ hours, who passed what in all likelihood would be the most rigorous and stringent airline training program made in U.S. Airline history a "non-experienced pilot."

I understand your point there there are thousands of pilots who have thousands of hours who would be great candidates for a job at B6. But maybe this is B6 preparing for 10 years down the road. Being a good business means thinking ahead.

I don't see how its a safety concern while airlines like BA, QF and LH, airlines just as safe if not safer than B6, hire pilots like this every week with even less hours. Its about the training and the person, not only about the hours they have in a logbook. Again, look at the United States Air Force, and tell them their pilots are not trained well or can't handle abnormal procedures.
 
DiamondFlyer
Posts: 3580
Joined: Wed Oct 29, 2008 11:50 pm

RE: Jetblue To Train Pilots From Scratch

Tue Dec 01, 2015 3:47 am

Quoting flymia (Reply 58):
I don't see how its a safety concern while airlines like BA, QF and LH, airlines just as safe if not safer than B6, hire pilots like this every week with even less hours. Its about the training and the person, not only about the hours they have in a logbook.

Because we don't practice indentured servitude in the United States, which is basically what the schemes that foreign carriers who hire ab initio pilots use. Long term training contracts and the like, are largely illegal in the United States, which is what this type of scheme will require.

The longer we keep this Ab Initio crap out of the US, the longer we can keep the concept of the multi-crew license out of the US as well. I'd be shocked in the union allows this program to actually happen.

-DiamondFlyer
 
INFINITI329
Posts: 2681
Joined: Mon Jul 02, 2012 12:53 am

RE: Jetblue To Train Pilots From Scratch

Tue Dec 01, 2015 5:48 am

Quoting DiamondFlyer (Reply 59):
Because we don't practice indentured servitude in the United States, which is basically what the schemes that foreign carriers who hire ab initio pilots use. Long term training contracts and the like, are largely illegal in the United States, which is what this type of scheme will require.

The longer we keep this Ab Initio crap out of the US, the longer we can keep the concept of the multi-crew license out of the US as well. I'd be shocked in the union allows this program to actually happen.

Like stated earlier, if B6 can afford to pay back the loans of the pilots they recruit then they may have something sort of what BA does. Quoted from their the BA program's website. After investing seven years at an airline where there is room advancement does one really leave after that point? I don't think so

Quote:

As a first officer, in addition to your basic pay and allowances you will receive a repayment of £12,000 of your security bond each year for the first seven years of employment.

(That's a total of £84,000)

Im my opinion I'm not sure if the union can do anything about it, if B6 decides this is what they want to do
 
sierrakilo44
Posts: 681
Joined: Tue Dec 13, 2011 1:38 am

RE: Jetblue To Train Pilots From Scratch

Tue Dec 01, 2015 5:50 am

Quoting DiamondFlyer (Reply 59):
Because we don't practice indentured servitude in the United States, which is basically what the schemes that foreign carriers who hire ab initio pilots use. Long term training contracts and the like, are largely illegal in the United States, which is what this type of scheme will require.

Indentured servitude? Hardly. None of the carriers listed force their pilot trainees into lifetime servitude, all are free to make employment decisions as wanted. Their guaranteed salaries after graduation are more than enough to pay off the training loans. In fact BA is actually repaying the cost of their Future Pilot Program graduates in full in instalments to trainees each year for seven years if they remain with the company (Aer Lingus is now paying the full cost of training upfront).

Keep Ab initio of the US? I don't see the above mentioned airline's pilots sleeping 6 to a room in crashpads, sleeping on sofas in pilot lounges, $18k per year salaries and working 3 jobs to support themselves.

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