afcjets
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RE: 4 Deplaned After Woman Sees Text Saying Dynamite

Fri Nov 27, 2015 7:50 am

Quoting DocLightning (Reply 47):
Fine. And if it turns out to be nothing, you lose that ticket, too. There needs to be a consequence for gaming the system to harass other passengers for their national origin.

Don't give Spirit any ideas (for the record I would never fly Spirit unless I had no other choice). While this woman who doesn't know the difference between a text message and a news feed is clearly an idiot, revising our national security policy from "if you see something suspicious, report it" to "but if it turns out to be a false alarm, you are going to pay a fine" would not go over well.
 
Brewfangrb
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RE: 4 Deplaned After Woman Sees Text Saying Dynamite

Fri Nov 27, 2015 8:32 am

Quoting afcjets (Reply 12):
I am certainly not comfortable flying on a flight with Muslims texting about explosives and I think they were right to be questioned. And if it was used a slang term, they should have been smarter. For example, if I was flying to LAS for a bachelor's weekend and was planning on drinking and partying on the flight, I would not express it by saying or text "I am going to blow this bitch up", a slang term for intense partying. I guarantee you I would have been pulled off the flight.

A lot going on here, all of it ugly and ignorant.

1) You're perfectly fine with "non-Muslims" texting about explosives but not "Muslims"
2) You don't explain how you'll identify Muslims
3) You don't explain how the hell you even know what other people are texting unless you're not minding your own damned business
4) You think people, generally, now need to be smarter in the verbiage they use in text messages in case some bigot happens to be reading their texts over their shoulders and then mistakes them for Muslim.

Just about cover it?

Quoting afcjets (Reply 18):
Yup, with ISIS saying things like see you in New York, since they have already downed a Russian jetliner in recent weeks and since this president who said he thinks they are a contained and a JV team yet still issues an alert, I would.

Ahhh, there it is. I'd like this post to stay up, so I'll just say: This isn't a thought borne of critical thinking.

Quoting afcjets (Reply 26):
Probably for two reasons. First, Muslims are not as large a segment of the US population compared to Europe. Secondly, 9/11 was a plot against America using US airliners, not an attack against Canada using Air Canada jets as weapons. And yes I realize Canada is not in Europe, I was just personalizing for you.

What? I mean....what?

Quoting afcjets (Reply 31):
Allow me to clarify, I would be LESS comfortable with Muslims texting about explosives on a flight than non-Muslim but would be uncomfortable with both.

Ohhh. Nice "cover". Still not telling us how you're identifying the Muslims, though.

Quoting Androol (Reply 40):
Anyone starts mentioning explosives on my airplane is getting kicked off - as the captain I have that authority. I will not apologise or feel the least bit of remorse. Political correctness be damned. Many of the people who are doing this stuff are intentionally trying to draw a reaction and I am happy to give it to them.

This is very helpful to the argument from flight and cabin crew that they aren't on a power trip, oh no. And it's very hard to get kicked off a flight, yes sireee. After all, @Heather_Poole just went off on a diatribe about how thoroughly they investigate things and no FA or pilot would ever, EVER overreact and treat a pax badly. No way, she says. I guess she hasn't met you, yet. "I HAVE THE POWERRRR!" Alright, tough guy. Nice work.
 
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ua900
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RE: 4 Deplaned After Woman Sees Text Saying Dynamite

Fri Nov 27, 2015 8:40 am

Quoting afcjets (Reply 49):
So why did they bomb Metrojet and not Aeroflot?


Again, NK, F9 or WN don't fly to sensitive regions, so why worry about it? Someone on a U.S. domestic route between two strategically unimportant towns shouldn't worry too much about it as terrorism in the U.S. is unlikely to strike at FLL.

As for SSH, it could have affected any carrier present there, especially other Russian or British carriers as evidenced in their subsequent wholesale withdrawal from serving SSH.

They were a target because they were all active in the same region as the Islamic State, bringing hordes of skinny clad Westerners consuming liquor to beaches in an Islamic country. Some of them may have been unmarried couples too. They wanted to hit Egypt for banning the Muslim brotherhood, Russia for her engagement in Syria and the tourists for their "immoral" behavior. Having an airport without airport security right in front of them helped as well.

The Islamic State probably doesn't even know who NK is. Any vigilance should be proportionate with the risk and likelyhood of a given event happening, and NK at FLL really ranks towards the bottom there, as would WN on some OAK-RNO-BOI-GEG milk run or F9 from DEN to MCI.
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b747400erf
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RE: 4 Deplaned After Woman Sees Text Saying Dynamite

Fri Nov 27, 2015 9:15 am

Quoting brewfangrb (Reply 51):

Ahhh, there it is. I'd like this post to stay up, so I'll just say: This isn't a thought borne of critical thinking.

ISIS have lost 20% of their territory due to American led fighting by Iraqi and Kurdish military action. When Obama said ISIS is contained he meant locally, but conservatives who live their life in a bubble need to take everything out of context because they want to justify their hate towards anyone not like them. His location is Orange County, CA which explains everything.
 
RIX
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RE: 4 Deplaned After Woman Sees Text Saying Dynamite

Fri Nov 27, 2015 5:05 pm

Quoting B747400ERF (Reply 53):
conservatives who live their life in a bubble need to take everything out of context because they want to justify their hate towards anyone not like them.

Actually, the above shows you are the one hating those thinking differently...

Quoting B747400ERF (Reply 53):
His location is Orange County, CA which explains everything.

...and a bigot too!  
 
ytz
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RE: 4 Deplaned After Woman Sees Text Saying Dynamite

Fri Nov 27, 2015 6:05 pm

Quoting afcjets (Reply 50):
While this woman who doesn't know the difference between a text message and a news feed is clearly an idiot, revising our national security policy from "if you see something suspicious, report it" to "but if it turns out to be a false alarm, you are going to pay a fine" would not go over well.

Indeed. I'd prefer the aircraft be held back while a quick check is done. All for safety, after all. If the police really think the threat is credible, then all passengers (not just the suspects) should be de-boarded and the aircraft swept. They can question the suspects in the mean time and then let everybody back onboard together. I can't accept that it's anything but racism, when they deboard four pax and let the aircraft depart. At that point, it's proof that your consideration of the "threat" wasn't at all serious.

I, shudder to think that some of the my older relatives, who don't speak English well, and have dark skin, could get caught in nonsense like this from an eavesdropping racist passenger simply because their language might sound "Middle Eastern" to ignorant Westerners (particularly Americans). It doesn't help that most Americans lump in all Arabs, South Asians, Persians, and even some Central and Southeast Asians together. A peace loving Burmese Buddhist would be just as likely to draw such a reaction in the US as a devout Muslim Saudi.
 
afcjets
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RE: 4 Deplaned After Woman Sees Text Saying Dynamite

Fri Nov 27, 2015 7:00 pm

Quoting brewfangrb (Reply 51):
A lot going on here, all of it ugly and ignorant.

1) You're perfectly fine with "non-Muslims" texting about explosives but not "Muslims"

False (see reply 31)

Quoting brewfangrb (Reply 51):
2) You don't explain how you'll identify Muslims

Since 92% of the Middle East is Muslim, there is a high probability someone of Middle Eastern descent is Muslim, not 100% probability, but still high, it's called critical thinking.

Quoting brewfangrb (Reply 51):
Ahhh, there it is. I'd like this post to stay up, so I'll just say: This isn't a thought borne of critical thinking

You mean politically correct filtered thinking.

Quoting brewfangrb (Reply 51):
3) You don't explain how the hell you even know what other people are texting unless you're not minding your own damned business

I would be minding my own business however as tight as airlines (especially NK) packs passengers in Y and with many cell phone screens almost as large as tablets, another passenger might notice a text, just like they might notice someone watching a porno in-flight. Before you claim I have offended and am spewing hatred towards porn actresses, you would be wrong. I was a huge fan as a teenage boy, and am still occasionally impressed.

Quoting brewfangrb (Reply 51):
4) You think people, generally, now need to be smarter in the verbiage they use in text messages in case some bigot happens to be reading their texts over their shoulders and then mistakes them for Muslim.

Nope, not generally, but specifically when flying on an airplane, probably not a good idea to text about explosives, especially where other passengers can see your phone, which is why this made the news.

Quoting brewfangrb (Reply 51):
What? I mean....what?

When you don't have a counter argument you can make, there is no reason to quote.

Quoting brewfangrb (Reply 51):
Ohhh. Nice "cover".

Cover? Are you kidding me? I was actually going out of my way to show I won't be intimidated by an online PC bully who was invading my safe space.
 
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ER757
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RE: 4 Deplaned After Woman Sees Text Saying Dynamite

Fri Nov 27, 2015 7:18 pm

Quoting questions (Reply 19):

     
You owe me a new monitor!
Best post in weeks, kudos to you for making my day
 
afcjets
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RE: 4 Deplaned After Woman Sees Text Saying Dynamite

Fri Nov 27, 2015 7:23 pm

Quoting ua900 (Reply 52):
Quoting afcjets (Reply 49):So why did they bomb Metrojet and not Aeroflot?

Again, NK, F9 or WN don't fly to sensitive regions, so why worry about it? Someone on a U.S. domestic route between two strategically unimportant towns shouldn't worry too much about it as terrorism in the U.S. is unlikely to strike at FLL.

I don't see much difference between BWI-LAX and IAD-LAX (especially considering what the W stands for) but that's just me. I agree they would prefer to hit AA or UA but I am sure they would be happy if an opportunity to hit NK presented itself, or if they thought it or lower profile market is less likely to have a FAM onboard.
 
afcjets
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RE: 4 Deplaned After Woman Sees Text Saying Dynamite

Fri Nov 27, 2015 7:31 pm

Quoting B747400ERF (Reply 53):
ISIS have lost 20% of their territory due to American led fighting by Iraqi and Kurdish military action. When Obama said ISIS is contained he meant locally, but conservatives who live their life in a bubble need to take everything out of context because they want to justify their hate towards anyone not like them. His location is Orange County, CA which explains everything

How dare you accuse the honorable Diane Feinstein of hating our president. She is from and the former mayor of San Francisco, what's her excuse?

http://thehill.com/policy/national-s...10-feinstein-isis-is-not-contained

[Edited 2015-11-27 11:41:46]
 
jacobin777
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RE: 4 Deplaned After Woman Sees Text Saying Dynamite

Fri Nov 27, 2015 7:34 pm

Quoting DocLightning (Reply 42):
Simple rule: you report another passenger, you are also not boarding your flight. That alone would make people think really carefully about how real the threat is. If they're convinced it's real, they won't mind missing their flight.

  

Quoting DocLightning (Reply 47):
Quoting afcjets (Reply 45):
There's no way in hell I am taking that flight if I really felt they were talking about bring it down with explosives, even if they were removed.

Fine. And if it turns out to be nothing, you lose that ticket, too. There needs to be a consequence for gaming the system to harass other passengers for their national origin.

  

Quoting afcjets (Reply 56):
Quoting brewfangrb (Reply 51):
2) You don't explain how you'll identify Muslims

Since 92% of the Middle East is Muslim, there is a high probability someone of Middle Eastern descent is Muslim, not 100% probability, but still high, it's called critical thinking.

Many people who look "Middle Eastern" aren't even Middle Eastern.

Quoting afcjets (Reply 56):
especially where other passengers can see your phone,

Why are people reading other people's conversation? Text messages don't emit sound waves where everyone else can listen in on.
"Up the Irons!"
 
AA94
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RE: 4 Deplaned After Woman Sees Text Saying Dynamite

Fri Nov 27, 2015 7:37 pm

Quoting afcjets (Reply 56):
Nope, not generally, but specifically when flying on an airplane, probably not a good idea to text about explosives, especially where other passengers can see your phone, which is why this made the news.

This is a ridiculous argument. Taking words and messages out of context and using them to justify your own fear is an utterly idiotic concept. I'm positive that at one point in my traveling career, I've transmitted a message or viewed an online article or read an email that probably contained a word that's supposedly taboo in an airplane/airport. Since I'm white, though, I probably wouldn't be perceived as a threat.

The notion that the reporting passenger saw the word "dynamite" on the electronic device of a Middle Eastern-looking passenger, and that serves as justification for delaying a flight and removing the "offending" passengers from the aircraft is absurd.

We don't even know the context of the message or the conversation preceding; the text could've been an incoming one.

The fact that you can now supposedly determine a person's intentions by their skin color and a single out-of-context word is terrible precedent, and, frankly, a total abomination of the liberties that this country was built on.
 
HPRamper
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RE: 4 Deplaned After Woman Sees Text Saying Dynamite

Fri Nov 27, 2015 8:37 pm

Quoting AA94 (Reply 61):
The fact that you can now supposedly determine a person's intentions by their skin color and a single out-of-context word is terrible precedent, and, frankly, a total abomination of the liberties that this country was built on.

        
And that is what this all boils down to.
 
RIX
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RE: 4 Deplaned After Woman Sees Text Saying Dynamite

Fri Nov 27, 2015 8:58 pm

Quoting DocLightning (Reply 42):
Simple rule: you report another passenger, you are also not boarding your flight. That alone would make people think really carefully about how real the threat is.

It's up to crew to "think carefully about how real the threat is". They are the authority onboard, and they are at least not less qualified than anyone else to make the decision. Several years ago I saw a suspicious bag in a subway train. As I asked the passengers around if it belonged to some of them, nobody even cared to think about a potential danger. I reported it to police on station, and it was up to them to stop the train, to interrupt the traffic... (I told them the car number and exact bag location). Now, if I knew I would be fined for disruption...

Quoting afcjets (Reply 50):
revising our national security policy from "if you see something suspicious, report it" to "but if it turns out to be a false alarm, you are going to pay a fine" would not go over well.

              
 
Unflug
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RE: 4 Deplaned After Woman Sees Text Saying Dynamite

Fri Nov 27, 2015 9:08 pm

Quoting RIX (Reply 63):
It's up to crew to "think carefully about how real the threat is".

Well, if the result of that careful thinking is that it is a threat if the word dynamite might have been visible on a mobile phone - they should leave the thinking to the horses...
 
RIX
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RE: 4 Deplaned After Woman Sees Text Saying Dynamite

Fri Nov 27, 2015 9:20 pm

I was commenting on "you report it - you get out too", not on this particular case. Thinking to horses, huh...
 
MD11Engineer
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RE: 4 Deplaned After Woman Sees Text Saying Dynamite

Fri Nov 27, 2015 9:26 pm

Quoting Androol (Reply 40):
nyone starts mentioning explosives on my airplane is getting kicked off - as the captain I have that authority. I will not apologise or feel the least bit of remorse. Political correctness be damned. Many of the people who are doing this stuff are intentionally trying to draw a reaction and I am happy to give it to them.

There are enough people who are dealing with explosives in a completely legitimate way, e.g. in the construction, mining or chemical industry or in the military or police. You can add people dealing legally with firearms as well.
Sometimes such people will talk shop.

I'm working in the aviation industry, but I used to hold a blasting licence and do demolitions. I also occasionally do some legal target shooting, so with the right people next to me, I might discuss things like demolitions or firearms.

Jan
Je Suis Charlie et je suis Ahmet aussi
 
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DocLightning
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RE: 4 Deplaned After Woman Sees Text Saying Dynamite

Fri Nov 27, 2015 9:30 pm

Quoting RIX (Reply 63):
It's up to crew to "think carefully about how real the threat is". They are the authority onboard, and they are at least not less qualified than anyone else to make the decision.

Then consider it this way:

I am a major US company. I am sending one of my employees on a business trip for an important and time-sensitive meeting. My employee, who happens to be Indian, gets thrown off of three flights over three days for no good reason. This winds up costing me a $500m contract.

It turns out that it's an employee of my competitor who keeps reporting my employee to the authorities.

This should just be permitted "in the name of security?"

Falsely reporting an emergency is a crime in most jurisdictions and it should be one in aviation, as well.
-Doc Lightning-

"The sky calls to us. If we do not destroy ourselves, we will one day venture to the stars."
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RIX
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RE: 4 Deplaned After Woman Sees Text Saying Dynamite

Fri Nov 27, 2015 9:39 pm

Quoting DocLightning (Reply 67):

A very good example. The person should be punished for deliberate false reporting of emergency. Not for the very fact of reporting. Hardly unique to flight safety, can happen in quite a bunch of other areas. While your suggestion was "you report it - you are out", no matter what the circumstanses are. And this is wrong  .
 
afcjets
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RE: 4 Deplaned After Woman Sees Text Saying Dynamite

Fri Nov 27, 2015 9:51 pm

Quoting DocLightning (Reply 67):
Falsely reporting an emergency is a crime in most jurisdictions and it should be one in aviation, as well.

It is no crime to text the word dynamite and that is all she reported. While it is simple to delete a text message, that is likely not what happened, read the article:

"The passenger in question was removed from the flight because of his behaviour, which was breaking airline and FAA rules during the taxiing process, and refusing to cooperate with crew instructions."

"Law Enforcement was called and they chose to remove others who were traveling with the passenger who was breaking the rules."
Mr Green added: "One of the three males was sitting next to a female passenger and apparently he was watching a media report. I don't know of what nature it was, but given current events, I can imagine what it was.

"Being in her shoes, I'm guessing that combined with what she saw or heard created some concerns for her.

"She told the flight crew, which was most likely a flight attendant, and they spoke to the captain and the captain made the choice to go back to the terminal.

"We did not find any criminal activity or violations of any kind and they were free to do what they pleased at that point."
 
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aerorobnz
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RE: 4 Deplaned After Woman Sees Text Saying Dynamite

Fri Nov 27, 2015 10:35 pm

Quoting jacobin777 (Reply 60):
Many people who look "Middle Eastern" aren't even Middle Eastern.

Exactly. They could have been from the South Pacific, Greece, Spain, Mexico, India, Pakistan,Colombia, Brazil, South Africa or anywhere and had the exact same skin colour. Language is deceiving too. To an untrained ear in both languages Portuguese sounded Russian the first time I heard it. It took me learning just a very little to work out how easily the human ear can be deceived.

The fact is that genetically 100% of humanity has passed through the middle east from Africa, some continued on to Europe/Aisia, some stayed but in terms of genetic traits it is still possible to look ethnically similar to any other race because of all our shared ancestory.
Flown to 147 Airports in 62 Countries on 83 Operators and counting. Wanderlust is like Syphilis, once you have the itch it's too late for treatment.
 
Brewfangrb
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RE: 4 Deplaned After Woman Sees Text Saying Dynamite

Fri Nov 27, 2015 10:57 pm

Quoting RIX (Reply 68):
While your suggestion was "you report it - you are out", no matter what the circumstanses are. And this is wrong  .

If you think something is so suspicious to justify reporting it because it's soooo scary, why in the world would you want to stay on the aircraft?

If you saw people being deplaned by the crew or police and they DIDN'T deplane the entire aircraft and sweep it, I can't imagine why you'd want to stay. Isn't the sooo scary thing still potentially present?

Quoting afcjets (Reply 56):
Since 92% of the Middle East is Muslim, there is a high probability someone of Middle Eastern descent is Muslim, not 100% probability, but still high, it's called critical thinking.

Yeah? Well, what about Muslims who don't look Middle Eastern? Now what?

Quoting afcjets (Reply 56):
False (see reply 31)

Reply 31 is irrelevant since it was posted after the post I quoted and responded to. You said Muslims. Since you're "not going to be intimidated", don't back away from it now.

Quoting afcjets (Reply 56):
Nope, not generally, but specifically when flying on an airplane, probably not a good idea to text about explosives, especially where other passengers can see your phone, which is why this made the news.

I see. Can you create a list of words and phrases you find suspicious? I can try to avoid using them in case another bigot-whining-about-not-really-being-a-bigot reads my screen?

I guess this is another benefit of riding in First (and being white). People like you are less likely to report something based on emotion and fear instead of critical thinking.

Quoting afcjets (Reply 56):
When you don't have a counter argument you can make, there is no reason to quote.

When you don't get context, there's no reason to respond. Obviously, you don't grasp the concept of people saying "What??"
 
afcjets
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RE: 4 Deplaned After Woman Sees Text Saying Dynamite

Fri Nov 27, 2015 11:37 pm

Quoting brewfangrb (Reply 71):
Reply 31 is irrelevant since it was posted after the post I quoted and responded to. You said Muslims. Since you're "not going to be intimidated", don't back away from it now.

Considering you quoted the same reply 31 in your exact same post, I don't see how you think it is irrelevant. Nonetheless, it gives you the answer you are seeking, although it invalidates your claim. Back away from what? Do you want me to reference my reply 31 for a third time (including its original posting). No worries, see reply 31.

Quoting brewfangrb (Reply 71):
I see. Can you create a list of words and phrases you find suspicious? I can try to avoid using them in case another bigot-whining-about-not-really-being-a-bigot reads my screen?

No, creating a list of banned words is something PC obsessed people like you are good at though, so perhaps you can.

Quoting brewfangrb (Reply 71):
When you don't get context, there's no reason to respond. Obviously, you don't grasp the concept of people saying "What??"

You still can't think of anything else to say in response to what I said?
 
RIX
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RE: 4 Deplaned After Woman Sees Text Saying Dynamite

Sat Nov 28, 2015 12:07 am

Quoting brewfangrb (Reply 71):
If you think something is so suspicious to justify reporting it because it's soooo scary, why in the world would you want to stay on the aircraft?

It doesn't have to be soooo scary, it may be just suspicious (nice try though). Suspicious enough to believe somebody in charge and with authority should look at it. And make a decision which I fully respect - that is, if they believe there is nothing to worry about, I am free to agree with them and stay. Or I am not agree and leave. But I'm not forced to get out merely because I thought something might look not right and acted appropriately. What is so difficult to understand here? Like I said, similar situations may take place in quite a few other areas - see my real life example with subway train. Do you really think they should have prosecuted me for traffic disruption if my report was a false alarm? And hence I should have been really sure it was a bomb before talking to the police?

Quoting DocLightning (Reply 67):
It turns out that it's an employee of my competitor who keeps reporting my employee to the authorities.

(Sorry, wouldn't bother to post again, but had to reply to the above, hence...) That competitor guy might even not care about being kicked out himself. Who cares, he just damaged you $500M  ...
 
AA94
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RE: 4 Deplaned After Woman Sees Text Saying Dynamite

Sat Nov 28, 2015 12:30 am

Quoting afcjets (Reply 69):
"The passenger in question was removed from the flight because of his behaviour, which was breaking airline and FAA rules during the taxiing process, and refusing to cooperate with crew instructions."

Okay, fair enough. But would you be somewhat irate if a random passenger reported you to the flight crew while you watched a "concerning" report on your phone? And it's easy enough to make the connection that your ethnicity has everything to do with this woman tattling on you to the flight attendant.

Again, context and nuance is everything. "Refusing to cooperate with crew instructions" is one thing if you're a belligerent drunk who won't take your seat, but it's quite another if you've been reported for the highly suspicious behavior of being a Middle Eastern person using a smartphone.
 
mjoelnir
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RE: 4 Deplaned After Woman Sees Text Saying Dynamite

Sat Nov 28, 2015 12:39 am

Quoting RIX (Reply 73):
Quoting brewfangrb (Reply 71):
If you think something is so suspicious to justify reporting it because it's soooo scary, why in the world would you want to stay on the aircraft?

It doesn't have to be soooo scary, it may be just suspicious (nice try though). Suspicious enough to believe somebody in charge and with authority should look at it. And make a decision which I fully respect - that is, if they believe there is nothing to worry about, I am free to agree with them and stay. Or I am not agree and leave. But I'm not forced to get out merely because I thought something might look not right and acted appropriately. What is so difficult to understand here? Like I said, similar situations may take place in quite a few other areas - see my real life example with subway train. Do you really think they should have prosecuted me for traffic disruption if my report was a false alarm? And hence I should have been really sure it was a bomb before talking to the police?

Quoting DocLightning (Reply 67):
It turns out that it's an employee of my competitor who keeps reporting my employee to the authorities.

(Sorry, wouldn't bother to post again, but had to reply to the above, hence...) That competitor guy might even not care about being kicked out himself. Who cares, he just damaged you $500M  ...

You just have such a nice example in the USA with the Indian grandfather walking through the neighbourhood while visiting his son. With the reasonable suspicious neighbour and the, oh!, so reasonable response by the authorities investigating. Hospital for the "perpetrator" is insured.   

I would never assume that once suspicion is created, suspicion is justified by the involvement of on of the three letter organisations, but also including the police. Those can spend hours without reason when suspicion is active.
 
ytz
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RE: 4 Deplaned After Woman Sees Text Saying Dynamite

Sat Nov 28, 2015 1:08 am

Quoting mjoelnir (Reply 75):

This is actually a great parallel. The cops who put that grandfather in the hospital cited his "uncooperative" behaviour. Which turned out to be his inability to speak English.

And people wonder why the ME3 are growing in popularity. The EU3 airlines routinely treat Indians, Pakistanis, Bangladeshis and Arab nationals like crap. From just rude behaviour, to a lot of "you've been randomly selected". And on American carriers you risk racism like this. No such hassles in DXB.

[Edited 2015-11-27 17:19:10]
 
RIX
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RE: 4 Deplaned After Woman Sees Text Saying Dynamite

Sat Nov 28, 2015 1:13 am

Quoting mjoelnir (Reply 75):

Irrelevant. Like I said above twice, similar situation may happen in quite a few areas of life. My only point is "you report it - you get punished if you were wrong" can't be a universal rule. Getting examples where the rule should be applied doesn't prove it must always be applied. A basic logic, why is it so difficult to understand...

[Edited 2015-11-27 17:24:31]

[Edited 2015-11-27 17:25:49]
 
mjoelnir
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RE: 4 Deplaned After Woman Sees Text Saying Dynamite

Sat Nov 28, 2015 1:26 am

Quoting RIX (Reply 77):
Irrelevant. Like I said above twice, similar situation may happen in quite a few areas of life. My only point is "you report it - you get punished if you were wrong" can't be a universal rule. Getting examples where the rule should be applied doesn't prove it must always be applied. Again, why is it so difficult to understand...

Because not every suspicion is reasonable and better save than sorry can be carried quite far with complete loss of reason.

And it gets really bad when suspicion is based mainly or only on prejudice.

And you said quite a it more than what you just quoted.
 
afcjets
Posts: 2977
Joined: Thu Jan 01, 2015 6:20 pm

RE: 4 Deplaned After Woman Sees Text Saying Dynamite

Sat Nov 28, 2015 1:31 am

Quoting AA94 (Reply 74):
Quoting afcjets (Reply 69):"The passenger in question was removed from the flight because of his behaviour, which was breaking airline and FAA rules during the taxiing process, and refusing to cooperate with crew instructions."

Okay, fair enough. But would you be somewhat irate if a random passenger reported you to the flight crew while you watched a "concerning" report on your phone? And it's easy enough to make the connection that your ethnicity has everything to do with this woman tattling on you to the flight attendant.

Again, context and nuance is everything. "Refusing to cooperate with crew instructions" is one thing if you're a belligerent drunk who won't take your seat, but it's quite another if you've been reported for the highly suspicious behavior of being a Middle Eastern person using a smartphone.

Yes I would, especially in this case where the woman is too stupid to know the difference between a news feed and a text (it is however possible they deleted a text but I don't think so).
 
RIX
Posts: 1590
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RE: 4 Deplaned After Woman Sees Text Saying Dynamite

Sat Nov 28, 2015 1:38 am

Quoting mjoelnir (Reply 78):
Because not every suspicion is reasonable and better save than sorry can be carried quite far with complete loss of reason.

And it gets really bad when suspicion is based mainly or only on prejudice.

Let me try again... I'm not saying that every suspicion is reasonable. I'm not talking about suspicion based on prejudice. I'm saying that since there also can be reasonable suspicion (don't you agree there can be one?), not based on prejudice (don't you agree there can be such one too?), a person reporting something based on this suspicion doesn't have to be punished if he is wrong in any case (that is, not deliberately sabotaging something, ...), just because he reported it. Do you believe I had to be prosecuted in my example if my worries about bag in subway car were wrong? Yes or no?
 
ytz
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RE: 4 Deplaned After Woman Sees Text Saying Dynamite

Sat Nov 28, 2015 1:50 am

Quoting RIX (Reply 80):

Abandoned bag? No

If you pointed to a random Muslim lady and said her bag was suspicious? You should be detained as well till it's sorted out.
 
RIX
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RE: 4 Deplaned After Woman Sees Text Saying Dynamite

Sat Nov 28, 2015 2:04 am

Quoting YTZ (Reply 81):
If you pointed to a random Muslim lady...

That is, you agree that "you report it - you are punished if it proves false in any case" is wrong (otherwise, why that "if"?). Good  !
 
ytz
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RE: 4 Deplaned After Woman Sees Text Saying Dynamite

Sat Nov 28, 2015 2:18 am

Quoting RIX (Reply 82):


Like I said earlier, I suggested that the whole plane should have been deboarded and swept. Why would you want to continue traveling on a plane that's supposedly had a threat, without it being swept?

That's what makes this sound more like garden variety racism than a serious threat. And if this keeps up, US airlines will lose business... And they'll deserve it.
 
mjoelnir
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RE: 4 Deplaned After Woman Sees Text Saying Dynamite

Sat Nov 28, 2015 2:31 am

Quoting RIX (Reply 80):
Let me try again... I'm not saying that every suspicion is reasonable. I'm not talking about suspicion based on prejudice. I'm saying that since there also can be reasonable suspicion (don't you agree there can be one?), not based on prejudice (don't you agree there can be such one too?), a person reporting something based on this suspicion doesn't have to be punished if he is wrong in any case (that is, not deliberately sabotaging something, ...), just because he reported it. Do you believe I had to be prosecuted in my example if my worries about bag in subway car were wrong? Yes or no?

You are exactly talking about prejudice.

In the end of the article it was clearly stated that it was a false alarm, so not a reasonable suspicion. And there have been a lot of false alarms lately and always regarding dark, suspicious Mideastern foreigners, perhaps talking a non English language.

And the statement by the airline is typical, did somebody expect them to admit to prejudice?

And strange, when really something happens like in France, afterwards the authorities usually had all the information needed, just forgotten to connect the dots.
 
RIX
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RE: 4 Deplaned After Woman Sees Text Saying Dynamite

Sat Nov 28, 2015 3:25 am

Quoting YTZ (Reply 83):

That has nothing to do with my comment against "you report another passenger, you are also not boarding your flight" to be applied universally disregard particular circumstances - see my reply 73. I wasn't talking about this particular case, swept or not swept. Read the discussion again if you still don't get it, it's all said above.

Quoting YTZ (Reply 83):
And if this keeps up, US airlines will lose business... And they'll deserve it.

That's probably the whole idea of you staying in this thread. Why would I care.

Quoting mjoelnir (Reply 84):
In the end of the article it was clearly stated that it was a false alarm, so not a reasonable suspicion. And there have been a lot of false alarms lately and always regarding dark, suspicious Mideastern foreigners, perhaps talking a non English language.

Yet it doesn't prove that there can't be reasonable non-prejudiced suspicion (nor was I talking about this particular case/article). See right above what my point is.

Quoting mjoelnir (Reply 84):
You are exactly talking about prejudice.

Nope, I'm not, but you are. You are saying that whoever rings a bell is prejudiced if the alarm proves false, which is a prejudice. You didn't answer my question (actually, three questions). I clearly see why.

[Edited 2015-11-27 19:36:05]
 
Brewfangrb
Posts: 292
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RE: 4 Deplaned After Woman Sees Text Saying Dynamite

Sat Nov 28, 2015 6:21 am

Quoting afcjets (Reply 72):
Considering you quoted the same reply 31 in your exact same post, I don't see how you think it is irrelevant. Nonetheless, it gives you the answer you are seeking, although it invalidates your claim

Alright, let's try this again. Yes, I did quote both your responses in my reply. However, you first said this:

Quoting afcjets (Reply 12):
I am certainly not comfortable flying on a flight with Muslims texting about explosives and I think they were right to be questioned.

to which 727lover said this:

Quoting 727LOVER (Reply 30):
NO,...I'm referring to what you said here:

Quoting afcjets (Reply 12):
I am certainly not comfortable flying on a flight with Muslims texting about explosives

That implies that if they were texting about explosives but were not Muslims, you'd be fine with it. Sure, they may also be removed...but YOU, yourself would not have a problem with it.

and then you replied thusly:

Quoting afcjets (Reply 31):
Allow me to clarify, I would be LESS comfortable with Muslims texting about explosives on a flight than non-Muslim but would be uncomfortable with both.


So yeah: You're a bigot who wants to guess at who's a Muslim and boot them for that. When called out on it, you "covered" yourself through a mealy-mouthed qualification that is still preposterously bigoted, saying you'd simply be less comfortable with someone texting about explosives if they were Muslim.

If you don't get my point now, well, then, I'm afraid there's nothing for me to say because you're not willing to learn and aren't open-minded enough to examine your own prejudice.

Quoting afcjets (Reply 72):
No, creating a list of banned words is something PC obsessed people like you are good at though, so perhaps you can.


You mean like people who think reading "explosives" on some others person's text message is suspicious?

Quoting RIX (Reply 73):
it may be just suspicious (nice try though).

Oh, so things like speaking a language other than English and looking Muslim? Just suspicious, not scary. Got it.

[Edited 2015-11-27 22:25:37]
 
Brewfangrb
Posts: 292
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RE: 4 Deplaned After Woman Sees Text Saying Dynamite

Sat Nov 28, 2015 6:39 am

Quoting RIX" class="quote" target="_blank">RIX (Reply 80):
I'm saying that since there also can be reasonable suspicion (don't you agree there can be one?), not based on prejudice (don't you agree there can be such one too?), a person reporting something based on this suspicion doesn't have to be punished if he is wrong in any case (that is, not deliberately sabotaging something, ...), just because he reported it.

Reasonable to whom? You realize that cops shoot people and get away with it all the time because the standard for a cop shooting someone is merely that they must have had a reasonable belief TO THEM at that time that the other party presented a threat to life or of great bodily harm to themselves or others. See the key thing here? In most torts, the standard under which the person accused of committing the tort would be found responsible is whether their actions were reasonable to an ordinary person. But in an officer shooting, it only requires that the officer him/herself reasonably believed they were in danger. I mean, how does one even convict an officer in that case? He or she can ALWAYS claim "But *I* reasonably, really did believe my life was in danger!"

So, again: Under your theory, to whom must the suspicion be reasonable in order for it to be ok with you? The reporting party might say: "But I was in WTC 1 on 9/11 and I saw all those Muslim kill my friends---my suspicion of them is perfectly reasonable". Then what? Or "I speak Arabic and I swear they said "bomb!" and I was suspicious". The suspected "bomber" would claim "But I never said 'bomb'!" and the cops say "Sure, that's exactly what you would claim!". Now it's he said/she said.

This is why my argument re: the 2 passengers at MDW who were prevented from boarding until they were questioned was simply that the agent only needed to ask the reporting party 2 questions: 1) What language were they speaking and if the party knew what language they were speaking, 2) What were they saying, EXACTLY, that made you suspicious? But the agent NEVER questioned the reporting party (nor did whoever relaying the reporting party's suspicions to the agent).

See what I mean? If the reporting party cannot provide SOMETHING to show WHY it's suspicious, then they need to be told to sit down and shut up OR given a full refund and left behind.

I will say this: I do agree that reporting party's whose reports are found to be false should only be arrested/fined/jailed if their report was knowingly false or made based on prejudice. Not every report found to be false should be punished--but under the conditions I've outlined above, they would at least have actual objective evidence to support their claim. "Speaking that goofy language--I don't know what it is" would NEVER be sufficient.

Quoting YTZ (Reply 83):
Like I said earlier, I suggested that the whole plane should have been deboarded and swept. Why would you want to continue traveling on a plane that's supposedly had a threat, without it being swept?

Because...RIX says he trusts the authorities to figure it out after someone has made their claim of suspicious activity. That makes total sense, right?
 
afcjets
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RE: 4 Deplaned After Woman Sees Text Saying Dynamite

Sat Nov 28, 2015 7:14 am

Quoting brewfangrb (Reply 86):
So yeah: You're a bigot who wants to guess at who's a Muslim and boot them for that. When called out on it, you "covered" yourself through a mealy-mouthed qualification that is still preposterously bigoted, saying you'd simply be less comfortable with someone texting about explosives if they were Muslim.

If you don't get my point now, well, then, I'm afraid there's nothing for me to say because you're not willing to learn and aren't open-minded enough to examine your own prejudice.

I guess you didn't get the point of all caps saying LESS comfortable, I knew it would get a rise out of someone like you, and it did. Many Americans feel the same way, but not everyone will admit it. Almost everyone is prejudiced (even people that don't live in Orange County!), but that does not make one a racist. Perhaps you need to examine your own prejudice, or if you prefer, hypocrisy.

Quoting brewfangrb (Reply 86):
No, creating a list of banned words is something PC obsessed people like you are good at though, so perhaps you can.

You mean like people who think reading "explosives" on some others person's text message is suspicious?

I wouldn't really call that political correctness, more common sense, not a good idea to talk about explosives on an airplane, especially if that is the only English word you use, followed by a three letter airport code, and then speak exclusively in a foreign language, and especially a week after a plane was bombed and when the nation is under a terror alert. Granted it (her claim that is) wasn't dynamite BWI, but dynamite BLR. Most flyers know what three letter airport codes are, especially those who check luggage. Totally different context than MD11Engineer mentions in reply 66 where people are talking shop in English where you can actually get the context.

Actually it just occurred to me, as misguided as she appears to be, she probably thought BLR was the city code for BaLtimoRe.

[Edited 2015-11-27 23:45:26]
 
bennett123
Posts: 9029
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RE: 4 Deplaned After Woman Sees Text Saying Dynamite

Sat Nov 28, 2015 7:32 am

Going back to the OP.

When the phone was checked, the text was not found.

If recently deleted, could the cops have found evidence of it.

Alternatively, did they trace the offending newsfeed.

Not clear what the passenger did actually see.
 
Brewfangrb
Posts: 292
Joined: Tue Nov 11, 2014 3:13 am

RE: 4 Deplaned After Woman Sees Text Saying Dynamite

Sat Nov 28, 2015 8:53 am

Quoting afcjets (Reply 88):
I guess you didn't get the point of all caps saying LESS comfortable, I knew it would get a rise out of someone like you, and it did.

Wait. I did get the point. So how isn't that biased (or prejudiced) or whatever? To be more suspicious of X based solely on ethnicity? (Because you're assuming the religion).

Quoting afcjets (Reply 88):
Almost everyone is prejudiced (even people that don't live in Orange County!), but that does not make one a racist.

If it's based on race, it does. I mean, yes, I admit--can people completely control every subconscious reaction they have? No. But my point is---and only has been--I would never report someone as suspicious based on one word in a text I was poking my nose into or based on hearing non-English (unless I spoke that language and they said "Put the bomb under the seat.").

The whole thing is ridiculous because it's OBVIOUS to everyone that both incidents were the result of too much viewing of Fox News (at best), ignorance (durr, if you don't speak English, you're a tewwowist) or outright bigotry. None of these reports from people are based on ANYTHING objectively suspicious. If you're not a bigot and you're a reasonably intelligent adult, I don't understand how you're not bothered by these incidents and the response to them.

My point is you might say *huff* "Well, I NEVER would do anything suspicious so I don't have to worry!" *huff* until some whackjob DOES think you're doing something suspicious and you get dragged off a plane.

Quoting afcjets (Reply 88):
I wouldn't really call that political correctness, more common sense

Well, you're making the rules so I can guess they can suit you however you like. "If YOU do it, it's politically correct...if *I* do it, it's common sense."
 
HPRamper
Posts: 4963
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RE: 4 Deplaned After Woman Sees Text Saying Dynamite

Sat Nov 28, 2015 9:06 am

Quoting brewfangrb (Reply 90):
Wait. I did get the point. So how isn't that biased (or prejudiced) or whatever? To be more suspicious of X based solely on ethnicity? (Because you're assuming the religion).

The line between suspicion and prejudice is probable cause. In no way does a text message taken out of context (if there even really was one) constitute probable cause. Anyone with the gift of critical thinking should mentally test themselves..."Would I still be bothered if this person was white? Would I feel threatened if I saw this text not on a plane, but on a bus or in a shopping mall food court? What if someone had sent ME this text...would I report myself?" If the answers are no, you're probably a bigot, a hypocrite, or paranoid, or any combination of these.
 
afcjets
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RE: 4 Deplaned After Woman Sees Text Saying Dynamite

Sat Nov 28, 2015 7:23 pm

Quoting brewfangrb (Reply 90):
Quoting afcjets (Reply 88):I guess you didn't get the point of all caps saying LESS comfortable, I knew it would get a rise out of someone like you, and it did.
Wait. I did get the point. So how isn't that biased (or prejudiced) or whatever?

It's clearly biased.

Quoting brewfangrb (Reply 90):
Quoting afcjets (Reply 88):Almost everyone is prejudiced (even people that don't live in Orange County!), but that does not make one a racist.
If it's based on race, it does. I mean, yes, I admit--can people completely control every subconscious reaction they have? No. But my point is---and only has been--I would never report someone as suspicious based on one word in a text I was poking my nose into or based on hearing non-English (unless I spoke that language and they said "Put the bomb under the seat.").

The woman is likely delusional and she likely interpreted what she claimed to see (Dynamite BLR) as Dynamite BWI (again BaLtimoRe) and they we are on a jet departing BWI. That is the only English communication she claimed she witnessed from this passenger. If I saw a text that said bomb BWI and that's it, I am off the plane (and out of the airport), and I would report it as if the plane was in fact bombed and I was later questioned why did you deplane, I would feel terrible for not saying something, but let the captain and other pax make up their own mind.

So by your definition then, if it is reported that a suicide bomber takes down a jet, anyone who speculates that it might be ISIS or a radical Islamic terrorist is a racist? Not that I would bet on something so morbid, but if someone said the identity of the terrorist has been revealed, and the choices were it was a black Christian woman, a white Jewish woman, or a middle eastern woman who is Muslim, I would put my money on the Muslim woman and I bet you would too, although it would make you uncomfortable to admit it. And of course all the liberal MSNBC reporters who inquire if it was ISIS are racist too.

Quoting brewfangrb (Reply 90):
If you're not a bigot and you're a reasonably intelligent adult, I don't understand how you're not bothered by these incidents and the response to them.

I do feel bad for these people, however where you and I may differ is that I would feel worse for not reporting a suspicion that led to a terrorist act because I was afraid of being accused of being racist.

[Edited 2015-11-28 11:36:13]
 
jacobin777
Posts: 12262
Joined: Sat Sep 11, 2004 6:29 pm

RE: 4 Deplaned After Woman Sees Text Saying Dynamite

Sat Nov 28, 2015 7:51 pm

Quoting YTZ (Reply 76):
to a lot of "you've been randomly selected".

That happened once to me @ORD back in 2002. 10 Indians/Pakistanis for "randomly selected". What's the probably of that? Hint, its very small.

@SJC, my wife and I were completely targeted (even though I have TSA PreCheck). It was so obvious that the TSA manager herself came to me and admitted what had happened and had personally apologized for it. That was after 2-3 of her employees kept on denying what happened.

Quoting aerorobnz (Reply 70):
Exactly. They could have been from the South Pacific, Greece, Spain, Mexico, India, Pakistan,Colombia, Brazil, South Africa or anywhere and had the exact same skin colour.

  

Quoting brewfangrb (Reply 86):
So yeah: You're a bigot who wants to guess at who's a Muslim and boot them for that. When called out on it, you "covered" yourself through a mealy-mouthed qualification that is still preposterously bigoted, saying you'd simply be less comfortable with someone texting about explosives if they were Muslim.

You aren't the only one who's noticed this. As I mentioned up earlier in the thread:

Quoting jacobin777 (Reply 36):

Quoting afcjets (Reply 12):
I am certainly not comfortable flying on a flight with Muslims texting about explosives and I think they were right to be questioned.
Quoting afcjets (Reply 31):

Allow me to clarify, I would be LESS comfortable with Muslims texting about explosives on a flight than non-Muslim but would be uncomfortable with both.

I'm glad you've shown your true bigoted colors.
Quoting afcjets (Reply 88):
I guess you didn't get the point of all caps saying LESS comfortable, I knew it would get a rise out of someone like you, and it did. Many Americans feel the same way, but not everyone will admit it. Almost everyone is prejudiced (even people that don't live in Orange County!), but that does not make one a racist. Perhaps you need to examine your own prejudice, or if you prefer, hypocrisy.

You are a bigot. Its quite obvious to a few of us here.

Quoting afcjets (Reply 92):

I do feel bad for these people, however where you and I may differ is that I would feel worse for not reporting a suspicion that led to a terrorist act because I was afraid of being accused of being racist.

You are justifying your bigotry views. Plain and simple.
"Up the Irons!"
 
afcjets
Posts: 2977
Joined: Thu Jan 01, 2015 6:20 pm

RE: 4 Deplaned After Woman Sees Text Saying Dynamite

Sat Nov 28, 2015 8:24 pm

Quoting jacobin777 (Reply 93):
Quoting aerorobnz (Reply 70):Exactly. They could have been from the South Pacific, Greece, Spain, Mexico, India, Pakistan,Colombia, Brazil, South Africa or anywhere and had the exact same skin colour.


Quoting brewfangrb (Reply 86):So yeah: You're a bigot who wants to guess at who's a Muslim and boot them for that. When called out on it, you "covered" yourself through a mealy-mouthed qualification that is still preposterously bigoted, saying you'd simply be less comfortable with someone texting about explosives if they were Muslim.
You aren't the only one who's noticed this. As I mentioned up earlier in the thread:

You really don't know the difference between a Brazilian, Greek, and Indian accent? I find that really hard to believe, especially since you indicate you are Indian or Pakistani.
 
ytz
Posts: 3529
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RE: 4 Deplaned After Woman Sees Text Saying Dynamite

Sat Nov 28, 2015 9:21 pm

Quoting jacobin777 (Reply 93):

That happened once to me @ORD back in 2002. 10 Indians/Pakistanis for "randomly selected". What's the probably of that? Hint, its very small.

@SJC, my wife and I were completely targeted (even though I have TSA PreCheck).

I'm Canadian military. Have a a Nexus/Global Entry which gives me TSA Precheck. No issues in Canada. Got Nexus because I was " randomly selected" on about 20% of my trips to the US. Given that I don't have an "Indian" name and am Catholic, the likelihood of some of this not being based on skin-colour was highly suspicious. Not much trouble after Nexus.

You should see what my brother goes through. He was born in Dubai.

For whatever reason there's a marked difference in perception of non-whites between Canada and the US. And it's a lot worse if you're not the right kind of "brown". At least in the experience of my social circle.

Now I can appreciate the need for security. But I would certainly take issue with some FA coming and telling me that he wants to check my phone because my neighbouring pax was some racist who thought that they saw something. I'd be asking politely to be returned to the terminal and calling my lawyer after that.
 
CO953
Posts: 515
Joined: Tue Jan 08, 2013 4:05 am

RE: 4 Deplaned After Woman Sees Text Saying Dynamite

Sat Nov 28, 2015 9:55 pm

Reading the thread, in my opinion there seems to be a lot of what I would call "over-thinking," in the interest of avoiding "profiling." In a world where there have been, for the last 15 years solid, repeated massacres committed worldwide by young male Muslims, overtly invoking their religion, it seems to me that in modern Western society there exists a dangerously naive, obstructionist resistance to basic profiling.

Back "in the day," when we didn't have these accelerating massacres, society had more remaining "design margin" with which to take extra precautions against unwarranted accusations of people whose "color" or "otherness" may have been or currently may be designated among the "oppressed" peoples of the world. I would posit that that design margin is gone, now that we have numerous nations in a state of terror-based war, combined with ever-increasing global air travel. It's empirical fact that, percentage-wise, many more non-Caucasian individuals are Muslim, than Caucasian. It's empirical fact that many more mass attacks by Muslims have been committed by non-Caucasian-appearing Muslims than by Caucasian-appearing Muslims. I don't consider that to be racism - I'm just looking at the relative distribution of Islam among ethnicities, crossindexed with the frequency of terror attacks. As a result, this differentiation tends to increase the sensitivity and alertness of the average passenger, through age-old natural profiling mechanisms common to humans. A "non-Caucasian-Muslim-appearing" passenger is inevitably going to draw more scrutiny from a Western passenger, due to terror profiling having been drummed in by the news through years of attacks on the civil society. I don't think that this natural reaction can be detuned easily in the average citizen.

To me, it's a no-brainer to notify the crew if someone who "appears" to me to possibly be Muslim (and yes, even if that "possibly" is relying upon my own sterotypes, which have been formed by my own experiences in the world, and which may innocently but falsely rule people in - or out - of my perceived identification of who may appear to me to be a Muslim), and not a grandmother or little kid, is seen to be sending or receiving texts using words pertaining to explosives.

I draw no judgment and make no comment on whether the passenger actually saw something. I'm just saying that profiling has been saving lives for many years, both inside and outside of police work. Unless the passenger can be shown to have lied, I cannot see anything good about purposely ignoring reports such as this, based upon fear of offending political correctness, or penalizing the reporting passenger.

It's a sad commentary on the decline of the world - yes it is. But we all have to be extra alert, and punishing the reporting passenger, if it's an honest mistake, would seem to me to exert a chilling effect on the entire "see something, say something" message being actively espoused by our political leaders, from the president on down, with likely negative impacts on the overall security.
 
mjoelnir
Posts: 8945
Joined: Sun Feb 03, 2013 11:06 pm

RE: 4 Deplaned After Woman Sees Text Saying Dynamite

Sat Nov 28, 2015 10:37 pm

Quoting CO953 (Reply 96):
Reading the thread, in my opinion there seems to be a lot of what I would call "over-thinking," in the interest of avoiding "profiling." In a world where there have been, for the last 15 years solid, repeated massacres committed worldwide by young male Muslims, overtly invoking their religion, it seems to me that in modern Western society there exists a dangerously naive, obstructionist resistance to basic profiling.

Back "in the day," when we didn't have these accelerating massacres, society had more remaining "design margin" with which to take extra precautions against unwarranted accusations of people whose "color" or "otherness" may have been or currently may be designated among the "oppressed" peoples of the world. I would posit that that design margin is gone, now that we have numerous nations in a state of terror-based war, combined with ever-increasing global air travel. It's empirical fact that, percentage-wise, many more non-Caucasian individuals are Muslim, than Caucasian. It's empirical fact that many more mass attacks by Muslims have been committed by non-Caucasian-appearing Muslims than by Caucasian-appearing Muslims. I don't consider that to be racism - I'm just looking at the relative distribution of Islam among ethnicities, crossindexed with the frequency of terror attacks. As a result, this differentiation tends to increase the sensitivity and alertness of the average passenger, through age-old natural profiling mechanisms common to humans. A "non-Caucasian-Muslim-appearing" passenger is inevitably going to draw more scrutiny from a Western passenger, due to terror profiling having been drummed in by the news through years of attacks on the civil society. I don't think that this natural reaction can be detuned easily in the average citizen.

To me, it's a no-brainer to notify the crew if someone who "appears" to me to possibly be Muslim (and yes, even if that "possibly" is relying upon my own sterotypes, which have been formed by my own experiences in the world, and which may innocently but falsely rule people in - or out - of my perceived identification of who may appear to me to be a Muslim), and not a grandmother or little kid, is seen to be sending or receiving texts using words pertaining to explosives.

I draw no judgment and make no comment on whether the passenger actually saw something. I'm just saying that profiling has been saving lives for many years, both inside and outside of police work. Unless the passenger can be shown to have lied, I cannot see anything good about purposely ignoring reports such as this, based upon fear of offending political correctness, or penalizing the reporting passenger.

It's a sad commentary on the decline of the world - yes it is. But we all have to be extra alert, and punishing the reporting passenger, if it's an honest mistake, would seem to me to exert a chilling effect on the entire "see something, say something" message being actively espoused by our political leaders, from the president on down, with likely negative impacts on the overall security.

If you can show one instant, were a alert western Caucasian passenger has saved the day by voicing his reasonable suspicion of the dark mid eastern looking fellow passenger, I want to hear about it.  

Until than, I keep my opinion that racist, bigoted, narrow minded, fearmongering, paranoid and hysteric passengers make more trouble than any non existing increase in safety can out way.   

Of course should the "accuser" be removed from the plane with the "accused", he has to bear witness to the heinous deeds of the "accused" and, as often voiced here, being no serious problem to be removed from a plain, people should not get too uptight about a small delay and bother in the name of safety. In the very unlikely case that the accuser is right and grave danger was a foot, you give her/him a medal and everything will be fine.  
 
art
Posts: 2997
Joined: Tue Feb 08, 2005 11:46 am

RE: 4 Deplaned After Woman Sees Text Saying Dynamite

Sun Nov 29, 2015 3:12 am

Quoting Kaiarahi (Reply 25):
Quoting aerorobnz (Reply 24):It just goes to show how stupid people are about the usage of words used in context.
Fornicatingly ridiculous. Has anyone noticed how all of these "darkies speaking a foreign language" denied boarding stories come out of the U.S. - home of the brave and the land of the free?

I do get the impression that (at least in America) Americans seem to be incredibly fearful. A pub I used to go to with friends in a place called Guildford, also frequented by soldiers, was bombed by the IRA. A few people were killed. A few people were maimed for life. A lot more were injured. My friends and I (and the soldiers) obviously could not go there any more because the pub was badly damaged by the explosion so we went to other pubs. We did not demand that anyone with an Irish accent be asked to leave the pub because we found them frightening. We weren't frightened of them.

A French friend of mine who often goes to Bataclan in Paris is not going to stop going to music venues just because dozens of people were killed in the music venue he'd been in two days before that massacre.

I think Americans in America should try to be a lot less fearful of being killed by terrorists and should stop reacting in a ridiculous manner because they cannot perceive risk realistically. Yes, people do get killed by other people - they get killed when people are robbing them, when people drive cars stupidly or when their faculties are impaired through alcohol or other drugs. They also get murdered, mostly by people they know. Should they be frightened of the people they know because they are more likely to kill them than people they don't know?

[Edited 2015-11-28 19:14:17]

[Edited 2015-11-28 19:15:42]
 
Brewfangrb
Posts: 292
Joined: Tue Nov 11, 2014 3:13 am

RE: 4 Deplaned After Woman Sees Text Saying Dynamite

Sun Nov 29, 2015 4:29 am

Quoting afcjets (Reply 92):
So by your definition then, if it is reported that a suicide bomber takes down a jet, anyone who speculates that it might be ISIS or a radical Islamic terrorist is a racist?

Without evidence? Yes.

Perhaps you're not paying attention or only use the internet in a dark room for a.net, but it might occur to you that you're in far greater danger from a Fox News-watching, conservative, self-proclaimed Christian, white, male than a guy you think looks Muslim and you see he's texted "explosive".

Quoting mjoelnir (Reply 97):
Of course should the "accuser" be removed from the plane with the "accused", he has to bear witness to the heinous deeds of the "accused" and, as often voiced here, being no serious problem to be removed from a plain, people should not get too uptight about a small delay and bother in the name of safety. In the very unlikely case that the accuser is right and grave danger was a foot, you give her/him a medal and everything will be fine.  

Exactly! If somebody is so worried about a suspicious Muslim, they should deplane too (I mean, again: Why would you NOT want to deplane? After all, you think the guy is going to blow up the plane, so why'd you want to stay on it?). They should get off the plane and provide a witness statement to the police attesting to what they saw and what they found suspicious.

If they don't want to do that, then just how suspicious could this be?

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