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APP
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Why No AMS-MCO Route?

Thu Nov 26, 2015 4:12 pm

Hi,
For one reason or another, it's been about 5 years since I've been on here, have i missed much??  
Just wondering why, since Martinair scrapped it's passenger services, there hasn't been a direct flight to MCO. I know Tui service SFB, but I'm just surprised that there mustn't be enough of a demand for KLM to pick it up.
Is it that simple or is there something else that makes this an unattractive proposition? I'd have thought there'd be enough demand from the Dutch to visit Disney/Universal etc in their numbers, or are they in fact going, but routing through somewhere else.
APP.
 
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readytotaxi
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RE: Why No AMS-MCO Route?

Thu Nov 26, 2015 4:32 pm

You would have thought so. On my last trip to MCO in July there was a small school party from the Netherlands, about a 12 I think and they had done AMS-LHR train to LGW-MCO with BA. One of the adults I spoke with did not seem to mind.
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76er
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RE: Why No AMS-MCO Route?

Thu Nov 26, 2015 4:35 pm

For an airline like KL the avarage yield on a nonstop flight would be too low since the vast majority of pax will be leisure oriented. There is some Convention Center traffic, but not much. Besides, DL runs an hourly shuttle from ATL where most Dutch pax bound for Florida connect nowadays.
 
SCQ83
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RE: Why No AMS-MCO Route?

Thu Nov 26, 2015 4:42 pm

Orlando and Central Florida are not remotely as popular in most parts of continental Europe as they are in the UK, Ireland or Scandinavia.

And I guess most people that visit Disneyworld from continental Europe do it in a combined trip with Miami.
 
APP
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RE: Why No AMS-MCO Route?

Thu Nov 26, 2015 4:44 pm

Yes, my brother has connected in ATL and also in MSP, but as we live in the NE of England it's a 3 leg trip: MME-AMS, AMS-ATL/MSP, ATL/MSP-MCO. It would just be nice to knock out one of the legs.
Also removes another opportunity for a problem. Returning home a couple of years ago he ended up stuck in Atlanta for 2 days, which was less than ideal. I can't remember the reason now, I'll have to check with him.
APP
 
EWRandMDW
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RE: Why No AMS-MCO Route?

Thu Nov 26, 2015 4:59 pm

Don't the Dutch want to connect in ATL? Why should everyone else have to suffer and not the Dutch? 
 
76er
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RE: Why No AMS-MCO Route?

Thu Nov 26, 2015 5:02 pm

When MP still operated AMS-MCO only about half of the pax originated from AMS. The rest connected from mainly the U.K., central/northern Germany, Scandinavia and Russia. During the later years even quite a few from the Middle East.
Funny: on the return trip to AMS the bagagge weight would normally be about 5000kgs higher than what was normal for a typical holiday charterflight. Europeans sure love those outlet malls in Orlando.
 
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readytotaxi
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RE: Why No AMS-MCO Route?

Thu Nov 26, 2015 5:04 pm

Quoting APP (Reply 4):
It would just be nice to knock out one of the legs.

From the NE of England why not do MAN-MCO direct with Virgin ?
you don't get a second chance to make a first impression!
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APP
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RE: Why No AMS-MCO Route?

Thu Nov 26, 2015 5:28 pm

Done MAN-MCO with VS many times, and will continue to do so when reasonably priced, but sometimes they are too expensive.
Recently 4 of us went NCL-LHR / LHR-MIA / MIA-MCO with BA/AA for half the price of the direct flight with VS. Really was a no-brainer. Sure we got into MCO abou 5 hours later than we would have done, but it was well worth it for the saving we made, and the better hand luggage allowance!!!!

[Edited 2015-11-26 09:29:32]
 
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readytotaxi
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RE: Why No AMS-MCO Route?

Thu Nov 26, 2015 6:14 pm

Quoting APP (Reply 8):

How was that line at MIA CBP ?
you don't get a second chance to make a first impression!
Growing older, but not up.
 
APP
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RE: Why No AMS-MCO Route?

Thu Nov 26, 2015 7:21 pm

Not sure I understand the question readytotaxi.
 
OOer
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RE: Why No AMS-MCO Route?

Thu Nov 26, 2015 7:36 pm

The European economy has tanked over the past 3-4 years. There's not enough demand for a nonstop MCO-AMS.
 
mugler
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RE: Why No AMS-MCO Route?

Thu Nov 26, 2015 8:25 pm

Quoting APP (Reply 10):

He's asking about the customs and immigration lines at MIA
 
frostyj
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RE: Why No AMS-MCO Route?

Thu Nov 26, 2015 8:32 pm

It's a British and Irish destination.
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frostyj
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RE: Why No AMS-MCO Route?

Thu Nov 26, 2015 8:35 pm

Quoting OOer (Reply 11):

What do you mean the European economy? Europe is not a country, it's a continent.
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sandyb123
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RE: Why No AMS-MCO Route?

Thu Nov 26, 2015 8:39 pm

Quoting frostyj (Reply 14):
What do you mean the European economy? Europe is not a country, it's a continent.

But it is a single economic area EEC on the whole so the collective stands. Ok the Uk ins't in the Eurozone but our economy is fairly closely linked!

Sandyb123
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APP
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RE: Why No AMS-MCO Route?

Thu Nov 26, 2015 8:49 pm

Quoting Mugler (Reply 12):

Aah I see. Sorry.
Customs and Immigration was far quicker at MIA than MCO. We were through immigration in 5 minutes in MIA. At MCO we've regularly been queuing for 1.5 - 2 hrs (though October 2014 we were through at MCO in 15 mins, but that has been the exception not the norm.)
 
tjh8402
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RE: Why No AMS-MCO Route?

Thu Nov 26, 2015 8:59 pm

Quoting 76er (Reply 2):
Besides, DL runs an hourly shuttle from ATL where most Dutch pax bound for Florida connect nowadays.

This is probably it more than anything, especially since I'm assuming it's a part of a JV, so KL still makes their $ on passengers booked all the way. Also keep in mind KL did fly the route (indirectly) through its corporate partner AF up until a couple years ago. Is AMS slot restricted? It may also be that they don't want to use valuable slots. As others have noted, continental Europe doesn't seem to love Disney like the UK does. I think the only continental airline currently flying to MCO is LH. Perhaps a TATL specialized bird like the 78J could make the route doable for KL.
 
BlueShamu330s
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RE: Why No AMS-MCO Route?

Thu Nov 26, 2015 10:43 pm

Quoting frostyj (Reply 13):
It's a British and Irish destination.

That'll be why Lufthansa fly Scheduled service there then...


 
Flying around India
 
OOer
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RE: Why No AMS-MCO Route?

Thu Nov 26, 2015 11:11 pm

Quoting frostyj (Reply 14):
What do you mean the European economy? Europe is not a country, it's a continent.

Ever heard of the European Union? They're all sovereign states that use a single currency and create economic policy as a whole. Ever heard of the ECB? Think before you speak.

Quoting sandyb123 (Reply 15):
Ok the Uk ins't in the Eurozone but our economy is fairly closely linked!

Technically the UK is also part of Europe, they just chose (wisely) to keep their own currency.
 
MAH4546
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RE: Why No AMS-MCO Route?

Thu Nov 26, 2015 11:24 pm

Quoting BlueShamu330s (Reply 18):
s a British and Irish destination.

That'll be why Lufthansa

And? His point is still valid. The overwhelming amount of European traffic to Orlando comes from just the UK and Ireland. I believe it's upwards of 90%. Hence why among major mainland European network carriers, only LH flies to MCO.
a.
 
frostyj
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RE: Why No AMS-MCO Route?

Thu Nov 26, 2015 11:24 pm

I don't need to think before I speak, it's pretty clear to the whole world that Europe is not a country.
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OOer
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RE: Why No AMS-MCO Route?

Fri Nov 27, 2015 12:27 am

Quoting frostyj (Reply 21):

I don't need to think before I speak, it's pretty clear to the whole world that Europe is not a country.

Nobody said Europe is a country. It's clear you don't understand the point being made.
 
clrd4t8koff
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RE: Why No AMS-MCO Route?

Fri Nov 27, 2015 7:22 am

It amazes me that AF dropped their Orlando flights, yet can make Cancun and Havana work with a 77W. Would their MCO flights have worked better from ORY and their Caribbean fleet?
 
MAH4546
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RE: Why No AMS-MCO Route?

Fri Nov 27, 2015 7:38 am

Quoting clrd4t8koff (Reply 23):
It amazes me that AF dropped their Orlando flights, yet can make Cancun and Havana work with a 77W. Would their MCO flights have worked better from ORY and their Caribbean fleet?

Cancun and Havana are far more popular with the French than Orlando. The MCOCDG route did operate with the Orly-configured 14J high density planes.
a.
 
Andy33
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RE: Why No AMS-MCO Route?

Fri Nov 27, 2015 8:09 am

Quoting clrd4t8koff (Reply 23):
It amazes me that AF dropped their Orlando flights

The French have Disney in their own country without needing a transatlantic flight. Now that's very far from all Orlando has to offer, but it may reduce the number of people wanting to fly there from France below the level that makes flights viable.

Quoting APP (Reply 8):
Done MAN-MCO with VS many times, and will continue to do so when reasonably priced, but sometimes they are too expensive.
Recently 4 of us went NCL-LHR / LHR-MIA / MIA-MCO with BA/AA for half the price of the direct flight with VS. Really was a no-brainer. Sure we got into MCO abou 5 hours later than we would have done, but it was well worth it for the saving we made, and the better hand luggage allowance!!!!

Why not look at Aer Lingus via Dublin? One connection, with US preclearance in Dublin, so you just walk out of MCO as a domestic passenger. Coming back, go through immigration in Dublin and avoid the queue at your UK airport.
 
frostyj
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RE: Why No AMS-MCO Route?

Fri Nov 27, 2015 8:24 am

or United from Newcastle.
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Rafabozzolla
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RE: Why No AMS-MCO Route?

Fri Nov 27, 2015 8:58 am

Quoting frostyj (Reply 13):
It's a British and Irish destination.

And Brazilian, yes, even with the crisis.
 
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Navigator
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RE: Why No AMS-MCO Route?

Fri Nov 27, 2015 9:09 am

Quoting APP (Thread starter):
I'd have thought there'd be enough demand from the Dutch to visit Disney/Universal etc in their numbers, or are they in fact going, but routing through somewhere else.

Many have already mentioned here that if you just mention the Dutch market there is not enough traffic to Orlando. However much of KLM:s traffic is transit through AMS, thats whats driving much of KLM:s traffic. I suspect that KLM does not catch enough leisure oriented transit traffic to make Orlando work. Much of this traffic to Orlando originates in UK and Scandinavia and this traffic is not going via AMS.
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frostyj
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RE: Why No AMS-MCO Route?

Fri Nov 27, 2015 9:30 am

Well someone from the UK shouldn't be going via Amsterdam to get to America, especially with the preclearance in Dublin and the cheaper prices and/or united.
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MAH4546
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RE: Why No AMS-MCO Route?

Fri Nov 27, 2015 9:36 am

Quoting frostyj (Reply 29):
Well someone from the UK shouldn't be going via Amsterdam to get to America, especially with the preclearance in Dublin and the cheaper prices and/or united.

You have got to be joking me. People can transit however they damn well please. KLM is big in the UK and I assure you a lot of that traffic transits to the States.

And pre-clearance at Dublin isn't a holy grail; it's quite a hassle, especially being stuck in a sterile area waiting for your flight.

[Edited 2015-11-27 01:38:16]
a.
 
frostyj
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RE: Why No AMS-MCO Route?

Fri Nov 27, 2015 9:54 am

Well Amsterdam is an extra 90 minutes of flight. Don't think I fancy that.

Dublin has some amazing deals for Business class.
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jeffreyklm
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RE: Why No AMS-MCO Route?

Fri Nov 27, 2015 10:27 am

Quoting 76er (Reply 2):
For an airline like KL the avarage yield on a nonstop flight would be too low since the vast majority of pax will be leisure oriented. There is some Convention Center traffic, but not much. Besides, DL runs an hourly shuttle from ATL where most Dutch pax bound for Florida connect nowadays.

Dutch pax might want to connect through ATL but with an average of 75% and up to 90% of KLM passengers being transfer pax. This means that these transfer pax need to fly from a certain European origin to AMS, then to ATL and then to MCO. (2 stops)

Considering the amount of possible connections and the new KLM Dreamliners coming up I see so much potential for KLM actually serving MCO directly and thereby preventing another stop and also reducing travel time, unit costs and thereby saving costs. (1 stop)

Jeffrey.
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frostyj
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RE: Why No AMS-MCO Route?

Fri Nov 27, 2015 10:54 am

Again with Virgin Atlantic serving MCO from BFS, GLA, MAN, LGW and Thomas Cook also serving MCO from other UK airports, I cannot see where these passengers are going to come from.
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JRadier
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RE: Why No AMS-MCO Route?

Fri Nov 27, 2015 1:48 pm

Quoting Navigator (Reply 28):
Many have already mentioned here that if you just mention the Dutch market there is not enough traffic to Orlando.

TUI would disagree with a twice-weekly SFB/MIA flight. There is a market, the yield is just not high enough for KLM to be interested.
 
tjh8402
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RE: Why No AMS-MCO Route?

Fri Nov 27, 2015 2:19 pm

Quoting clrd4t8koff (Reply 23):

It amazes me that AF dropped their Orlando flights, yet can make Cancun and Havana work with a 77W. Would their MCO flights have worked better from ORY and their Caribbean fleet

What's the status of AF 787 order? they don't have any A330 NEO's ordered correct? It would seem that they would need something more efficient like one of those birds if the 77W was too much airplane.
 
AWACSooner
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RE: Why No AMS-MCO Route?

Fri Nov 27, 2015 2:49 pm

Quoting EWRandMDW (Reply 5):
Don't the Dutch want to connect in ATL? Why should everyone else have to suffer and not the Dutch?

Flew DUS-AMS-ATL-MCO on Wednesday ok KL and DL (for the MCO leg)...man what long day...made me really wish they had that N/S from AMS...
 
frostyj
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RE: Why No AMS-MCO Route?

Fri Nov 27, 2015 3:02 pm

Quoting JRadier (Reply 34):

Twice weekly? Big deal.
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richcandy
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RE: Why No AMS-MCO Route?

Fri Nov 27, 2015 3:23 pm

Quoting frostyj (Reply 33):
Again with Virgin Atlantic serving MCO from BFS, GLA, MAN, LGW and Thomas Cook also serving MCO from other UK airports, I cannot see where these passengers are going to come from.

People will often pay more to fly from their local airport. Even if that mean travelling indirect.

If you live near NWI/BRS/SOU etc it's often more convenient to drive or take a taxi a few miles to your local airport and then fly via AMS even if that means a longer journey time.

Dublin having pre clearance is great , but a lot of people won't even consider that and doesn't it mean having to reclaim your bags twice?

In the early 1990's KLM had a daily service from BFS to AMS. The connections were pretty dreadful but on their nett fare contracts you could also fly BA BFS via BHX to AMS. So a journey Belfast to say Los Angles might end up being:

KL BFS AMS
KL AMS LAX
KL LAX AMS
BA AMS BHX
BA BHX BFS

People would still picked this option because a lot of people wanted to avoid Heathrow.

Alex
 
frostyj
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RE: Why No AMS-MCO Route?

Fri Nov 27, 2015 3:48 pm

Nope. With preclearance you land in America, go straight to the domestic gates and change flights. Reclaiming bags is not necessary, it's like going from Florida to New York to Chicago.
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richcandy
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RE: Why No AMS-MCO Route?

Fri Nov 27, 2015 3:57 pm

Quoting frostyj (Reply 39):

Yes but if your connecting from say BHX etc via DUB don't you have to re claim bags at DUB and then again in the States?
 
bobnwa
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RE: Why No AMS-MCO Route?

Fri Nov 27, 2015 4:47 pm

Quoting frostyj (Reply 14):
What do you mean the European economy? Europe is not a country, it's a continent.

Nobody said Europe was a country so why are you getting all in a dither?
 
billreid
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RE: Why No AMS-MCO Route?

Fri Nov 27, 2015 4:57 pm

The CEO, Pieter Elbers used to be head of planning before he was promoted Chief Operating Officer on route to the CEO chair. While attending Routes and other conferences I spoke with him several time, albiet before he was promoted to CEO.

He made it very clear that KLM had little interest in serving MIA or MCO. The thought process was the aircraft could be better utilized on routes with a higher business component. Serving FLA brings on a high opportunity cost. In reality the belief is the routes from AMS to florida are exclusively filled with leisure passengers. KL told me "DL and AF can serve the market better from Paris and ATL." Delta tried international from MIA serving LHR which was a financial disaster. So going full circle there appears little chance for AMS-MCO on KLM.

At the same time LH told me that the chance they would ever serve TPA was next to nil. So things change. LH is giving up huge opportunity costs serving TPA. No different from MIA or MCO high leisure component, thin margins.

Years back Pieter and I discussed the MP acquisition by KL. The thought process was an airline like MP could serve leisure markets with lower unit costs than KL. In the end KL only had interest in MP for the cargo routes. That being said that was under the watch of the previous CEO who was a politician and had no aviation experience what-so-ever.
Some people don't get it. Business is about making MONEY!
 
Callbell
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RE: Why No AMS-MCO Route?

Fri Nov 27, 2015 5:24 pm

Quoting richcandy (Reply 40):

Yes but if your connecting from say BHX etc via DUB don't you have to re claim bags at DUB and then again in the States?

No. Your bags will be checked through to your final destination. No need to pick them up until you arrive there. If CBP officials need to inspect a bag it can be pulled from the luggage bins, inspected and reloaded.
 
Andy33
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RE: Why No AMS-MCO Route?

Fri Nov 27, 2015 5:31 pm

Quoting richcandy (Reply 40):
Yes but if your connecting from say BHX etc via DUB don't you have to re claim bags at DUB and then again in the States?

Actually, no. You simply have to identify them on a screen at the preclearance point at Dublin, and not at all in the US as you arrive as a domestic passenger and bags are automatically transferred to final destination airport.
The US CBP video on this Dublin Airport webpage shows how it works,
http://www.dublinairport.com/gns/at-the-airport/US-Preclearance.aspx
 
Rookinla
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RE: Why No AMS-MCO Route?

Fri Nov 27, 2015 6:43 pm

Quoting APP (Reply 16):
Aah I see. Sorry.
Customs and Immigration was far quicker at MIA than MCO. We were through immigration in 5 minutes in MIA. At MCO we've regularly been queuing for 1.5 - 2 hrs (though October 2014 we were through at MCO in 15 mins, but that has been the exception not the norm.)

You were indeed very lucky. Although MCO does have long queues, I have never seen a short immigration line at MIA and I transit there frequently. During peak arrival times, it is common to see multi-hour immigration queues. As an agent, I never book travelers on a connection less than three hours returning into MIA.
 
bmacleod
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RE: Why No AMS-MCO Route?

Fri Nov 27, 2015 6:55 pm

Quoting APP (Thread starter):
but I'm just surprised that there mustn't be enough of a demand for KLM to pick it up.
DL being the biggest reason, it's merger with NW. ATL-MCO connect easily with AMS-ATL.

AF (merged with KL in 2004) being the second with CDG-MCO getting stronger.

[Edited 2015-11-27 10:56:52]
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APP
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RE: Why No AMS-MCO Route?

Sat Nov 28, 2015 11:57 am

Quoting Andy33 (Reply 25):

Looked at Aer Lingus out of NCL via DUB but price wasn't great to say the least. Shame because I quite fancied that having never flown with them before!
 
APP
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RE: Why No AMS-MCO Route?

Sat Nov 28, 2015 11:59 am

Quoting frostyj (Reply 26):

I'll definitely look at this if United start an all year round service from NCL. Unfortunately, the times of year I'm generally looking to travel aren't covered by this service.
Fingers crossed it proves popular enough to warrant expansion.
 
frostyj
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RE: Why No AMS-MCO Route?

Sat Nov 28, 2015 12:06 pm

Quoting APP (Reply 47):

Well they aren't very good in economy. I only fly them due to their Business Class product which is affordable and great value for money.

I am surprised though, at their prices for Newcaslte to Orlando. Some more than Dublin to Ord in Business class.

[Edited 2015-11-28 04:08:19]
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