ghYHZ
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Unintentional International Passengers

Fri Nov 27, 2015 4:29 pm

The recent bomb threat diversions to Halifax by Air France and Turkish Airlines got me wondering what happens when you arrive in a country you have no intention of being in.

In the above instance, these were international passengers anyway, all with their passports…some, possibly not with a required visa. The Air France passengers spent 30 hours in Halifax at local hotels throughout the city, dining, sightseeing etc.

But what happens if it’s a purely domestic flight that diverts to an airport in another country for a medical, mechanical or weather related issue and passengers may not have the required documents? All I need to board a domestic flight in Canada is a government issued photo ID…not a passport.

Canada To Canada - Across the US: for example:

Just about every flight between the Maritimes and central Canada…. YHZ, YQM, YYG etc to YUL, YYZ is in US airspace for at least 200 miles across Maine and depending on the route…may also be over northern NY, VT & NH so I guess it’s possible a mechanical or medical emergency could bring them into BGR.

http://flightaware.com/live/flight/A...6/history/20151125/0405Z/CYYZ/CYHZ

http://flightaware.com/live/flight/W...5/history/20151119/2257Z/CYHZ/CYYZ

On a WestJet flight last summer between Halifax and Toronto our alternate was Rochester NY due to weather but we did arrive in Toronto as scheduled.

And many flights between western and central Canada overfly the US. This one for example entered US airspace just minutes out of YVR and didn’t reenter Canada until near Port Huron MI/Sarnia ON so a diversion to Great Falls, Bismarck, MSP or Green Bay could be a possibility.

http://flightaware.com/live/flight/A...2/history/20151120/2200Z/CYVR/CYYZ

And then there’s the story of the Air Canada/Air Nova early morning flight from YHZ to BOS which stopped in YQI on the way. Yarmouth is known for its morning fog….so when these flights couldn’t land there…. an intending YHZ-YQI domestic passenger would just be carried over to BOS and dropped off in YQI on the way back later that morning after the fog burned off. Wonder how US CBP (or whatever they were called then) handled this as it was pre 9-11 and back then….that domestic passenger to YQI didn’t even need a photo ID to board let alone a passport. No problem now….everything overflies YQI. No airline service!

And in the reverse….…

US east coast to the upper mid-west: A BOS-MSP flights for example will be over Ontario and also anything between Alaska and the lower 48.

http://flightaware.com/live/flight/S...5/history/20151125/0130Z/KMSP/KBOS

So I imagine with the long standing relationship between the US and Canada some agreement is in place as a diversion could happen to citizens of either country. Hopefully common sense would prevail!!

[Edited 2015-11-27 08:34:20]

[Edited 2015-11-27 08:36:28]

[Edited 2015-11-27 08:40:16]

[Edited 2015-11-27 08:41:02]
 
tpaewr
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RE: Unintentional International Passengers

Fri Nov 27, 2015 4:37 pm

Years ago at CO I personally helped get a lady handled that was flying HSV-EWR-MHT in CO. However in this era of paper tickets the agent at COEX reprotected her HSV-PHL-MAN on US. As fate would have it the woman was using a valid passport as her ID!!! Clearly NOT a seasoned traveler she seemed to not be phased by the a-333 fly the short hop from PHL to "MHT"!!


It wasn't a massive issue. We had two MAN-EWR at the time. So we set it up for her to have a hotel if she wanted or do a hard turn and fly directly back home......in BusinessFirst of course
 
LGAviation
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RE: Unintentional International Passengers

Fri Nov 27, 2015 5:29 pm

Would be even more interesting to see an intra-Schengen flight divert abroad, as in most instances you need NO ID to board a flight (true at least for ALL LH flights operated from FRA and MUC)
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rampbro
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RE: Unintentional International Passengers

Fri Nov 27, 2015 5:56 pm

I recall some years ago AC ran a flight YYZ-YYT-LHR. Well, one poor woman returning home to Newfoundland slept through the stop in St. John's and woke up halfway across the Atlantic.
 
lancelot07
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RE: Unintentional International Passengers

Fri Nov 27, 2015 6:38 pm

Quoting LGAviation (Reply 2):
Would be even more interesting to see an intra-Schengen flight divert abroad, as in most instances you need NO ID to board a flight (true at least for ALL LH flights operated from FRA and MUC)

Don't remember specifically about LH at FRA and MUC, but i believe i always had to show my id card when boarding at the gate, everywhere in the Schengen area.

btw, you are supposed to have id card or passport with you when travelling abroad inside the Schengen area, not only when flying but also traveling by train or car.

[Edited 2015-11-27 10:40:57]
 
nonrevman
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RE: Unintentional International Passengers

Fri Nov 27, 2015 6:54 pm

I would also be curious to know what would happen if your domestic flight did suddenly become international. It seems like Alaska to the lower 48 or even a US to Puerto Rico flight could possibly produce an international diversion. Some US to Hawaii flights could also fly over Mexico. It would be fair to assume that a large part of the passenger load would not be traveling with a passport. Then, you have the possibility of having the diversion airport not having any customs facilities anyway. Somehow I doubt it would be a pleasant experience. Are there any stories out there?
 
DTWPurserBoy
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RE: Unintentional International Passengers

Fri Nov 27, 2015 7:15 pm

Quoting nonrevman (Reply 5):
Are there any stories out there?

At my airline all pilots and flight attendants must carry a valid passport at all times just for unusual diversions. I have diverted in SNN on a AMS trip several times due to a medical emergency and it was no big deal. We cancelled because we ran out of duty time. The only time I recall it ever becoming an issue was with our good friends to the north. Canada was not amused when we diverted in there (for weather as I recall) but it got straightened out with a couple of phone calls from the right people. They were incredible friends on 9/11 when every trans-Pac and Atlantic flight diverted to Canada because our airspace was closed. Hotels were jammed but I especially remember in YVR nice Canadians just pulling up to the terminal doors and welcoming people into their homes. It was amazing to see and we all kept asking each other if the reverse was true, would Americans open their homes to total strangers? I would like to think we would.

Another little quirk in the Canadian system that has bitten pilots and flight attendants is if they have a "criminal history"--something like a vengeful ex filing charges for abuse or non-payment. We had a few people hauled off the plane until it got straightened out and then we were told if there is ANYTHING on your record, do not bid anything that even transits a Canadian city.

Oddly enough, France was the last European nation to stop requiring crew members to have a valid 5 year visa. It was issued in the name of the Schengen States. When it was about to run out we would run into the French Embassy in AMS, WAS or wherever we were and get them reissued. The airline issues us a special letter but timing is critical. The consular offices are open for only a few hours a day. India normally requires a visa for Americans but they waive it for flight crews.

Sometimes we would land in an unusual country where their primary concern was getting paid for fuel, passenger handling, landing fees and catering. Once I recall the captain paid for the fuel on his Amex card and was promptly reimbursed by the airline.
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cloudboy
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RE: Unintentional International Passengers

Fri Nov 27, 2015 7:16 pm

I have heard of it happening - many flights from New England to the West Coast will overfly parts of Canada, and flights from Alaska to the lower 48 obviously overfly Canada.

From what I recall, it depended a lot more on whether that airport had customs or not. If they had customs, they would just process the passengers. I think they made a special case about not having a passport - same as what would you do if your passport was stolen. Then again you are not usually far off course, so getting a flight to your final destination may not require especially long waits.

As for foreigners flying withing Canada, I don't know. Wouldn't those passengers need a passport anyways?
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LGAviation
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RE: Unintentional International Passengers

Fri Nov 27, 2015 7:59 pm

Quoting lancelot07 (Reply 4):

Quoting LGAviation (Reply 2):
Would be even more interesting to see an intra-Schengen flight divert abroad, as in most instances you need NO ID to board a flight (true at least for ALL LH flights operated from FRA and MUC)

Don't remember specifically about LH at FRA and MUC, but i believe i always had to show my id card when boarding at the gate, everywhere in the Schengen area.

btw, you are supposed to have id card or passport with you when travelling abroad inside the Schengen area, not only when flying but also traveling by train or car.

Having flown on FRA-HAM 25+ times this year, I never had to show any ID and once I shared a return ticket with my dad with nobody caring. Same certainly applies to all other German domestic flights. Also, on FRA-LIN, I never had to show any ID in Germany, while on the return the Italians demanded to see an ID. I start to think that it's kind of a German thing, although HHN and FR are certainly an exception.

Quoting cloudboy (Reply 7):
As for foreigners flying withing Canada, I don't know. Wouldn't those passengers need a passport anyways?

Managed to convince TSA to accept my German national ID for US domestic flights multiple times  so there are ways getting around it.
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Birdwatching
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RE: Unintentional International Passengers

Fri Nov 27, 2015 8:33 pm

What about international flights overflying the US (like Europe-Mexico or Europe-Cuba). They will be in US airspace for a couple of hours, and in case of a diversion, there will be lots of passengers without visa for the US, potentially at an airport without CBP. Let's say the plane goes tech and the replacement won't arrive until the next morning. Will the passengers be forced to stay on board? Are there any cases where a similar situation happened?

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UALWN
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RE: Unintentional International Passengers

Fri Nov 27, 2015 9:14 pm

Quoting lancelot07 (Reply 4):
Don't remember specifically about LH at FRA and MUC, but i believe i always had to show my id card when boarding at the gate, everywhere in the Schengen area.

Indeed I have flown many times between FRA/MUC and BCN on LH and have never had to show any id. Same for GVA-BCN on LX. I find it weird.
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Thunderboltdrgn
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RE: Unintentional International Passengers

Fri Nov 27, 2015 9:30 pm

Quoting UALWN (Reply 10):
ndeed I have flown many times between FRA/MUC and BCN on LH and
have never had to show any id. Same for GVA-BCN on LX. I find it weird.

One does not need to show id card or passport when crossing internal Schengen borders
but you need to be able to prove your identity.

Quoting European Commission:


Francesca is an Italian student who dreams of visiting Sweden with her friends. She has already
bought her inter-rail ticket, but she does not know which travel documents she needs or whether
she has to comply with any special legal formalities. As an EU citizen, Francesca has the right to
enter all EU states upon presentation of a valid passport or identity card, but she will not need to
show it when travelling within the Schengen area. However, she has to carry a valid passport or
identity card because the authorities may require her to prove her identity.


[Edited 2015-11-27 13:31:44]
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LGAviation
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RE: Unintentional International Passengers

Fri Nov 27, 2015 10:10 pm

Adding a bit of legal fun facts to that: You cannot be just denied entry as an EU citizen even if you are unable to produce a valid ID or Passport. In fact, you must be given reasonable opportunity to demonstrate your identity by other means. In practice this means, as long as you can convince the official of your EU citizenship you should be fine. Also, ID carry requirements vastly differ within the EU .
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26point2
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RE: Unintentional International Passengers

Sat Nov 28, 2015 12:21 am

Also Canada will not allow a convicted Drink Driver/DUI into their country. A felony in Canada. Really?

Not sure how this affects airline crew members but in the corporate pilot world it's a deal breaker.

[Edited 2015-11-27 16:29:24]
 
Viscount724
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RE: Unintentional International Passengers

Sat Nov 28, 2015 12:38 am

Quoting lancelot07 (Reply 4):
Quoting LGAviation (Reply 2):
Would be even more interesting to see an intra-Schengen flight divert abroad, as in most instances you need NO ID to board a flight (true at least for ALL LH flights operated from FRA and MUC)

Don't remember specifically about LH at FRA and MUC, but i believe i always had to show my id card when boarding at the gate, everywhere in the Schengen area.

btw, you are supposed to have id card or passport with you when travelling abroad inside the Schengen area, not only when flying but also traveling by train or car.

While you are supposed to have a passport or (where applicable) a national ID card for travel within the Schengen area, I've made many trips where I have never had to show any ID anywhere, including a trip last weekend GVA-AMS-DUS-AMS-GVA on KLM. While I always have my passport with me, the only thing I had to show anywhere on that trip was my boarding pass. Same thing on most trips with Schengen for the past couple of years. At a few Schengen airports (e.g. PRG) they ask for a passport or ID card at the security check and/or at the gate but in my experience those airports are in the minority.
 
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ua900
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RE: Unintentional International Passengers

Sat Nov 28, 2015 12:42 am

With countries like Mexico that's less of an issue since they're everyone's friends. No issue within the EU if the flight is within Schengen.

Worse issue if you're say a U.S. government employee carrying documents from post to post and you divert to Cuba or Venezuela (hypothetically) on your way between the U.S. and LatAm or Iran on your way from IAD to DXB on UA. Similar flavor perhaps if you're Ukrainian and end up in Russia or something like that.

Luckily these countries aren't likely to bother you based on the circumstances. At the very least your plane will still be catered, fixed and refueled, but I wouldn't want to be that person in such a situation. Now if the shoe were on the other foot, say a Conviasa flight from CCS-DAM-IKA back in the day having to land in a country hostile to CCS and / or curious about the cargo then it might be different.

I remember that back in the Interflug days they stopped in Canada and had a tendency to loose people there. When they eliminated that stopover they occasionally still had unplanned stops there and the same thing happened. Just like with LO / CU highjackings. Domestic and/or Warsaw Pact country flight one moment and then someone takes the plane to Florida or THF and 20 out of 60 pax decide to stay as a spontaneous decision.
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uzzzer
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RE: Unintentional International Passengers

Sat Nov 28, 2015 1:46 am

A Ukrainian Minister of Foreign Affairs in the late 90s decided to use his authority and booked himself on the first leg of PS KBP-LWO-FRA though tickets for that flight were sold only internationally - all passengers had to clear border and customs prior to boarding. However, LWO was closed due to weather conditions and what had to be a hop to another city in Ukraine turned into an involuntary international visit for the top diplomat.
 
bourbon
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RE: Unintentional International Passengers

Sat Nov 28, 2015 4:10 am

Quoting 26point2 (Reply 13):

I believe that applies if has been within the past 10 years but it is one of the biggest deal breakers for airlines hiring a pilot who got a DUI yet still is able to obtain/keep his FAA Medical and License
 
tmoney
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RE: Unintentional International Passengers

Sat Nov 28, 2015 5:17 am

A very interesting topic!

It's actually one of my biggest fears in traveling. Especially because I hold the "least powerful passport in the world" according to that stupid passport power index. I.e. I need a visa to practically go anywhere in this world apart from a few handful of countries.

A very recent experience: In August, I was flying CDG-BKK-RGN on EY/PG. But because Thailand has this 12hrs layover law, and my EY flight has 12.20hrs I was told by the fa to wait about 20min upon arrival before I could deplane.
Not exactly a diversion but I can't imagine what I'd have to go through immigration/customs-wise if my flight was actually to be diverted to a country with tight security that I don't have a visa to.

But then again, I was bumped to J on my AUH-DFW flight.  (And whoever said that flight has low L-F needs to go take a hike. That flight is as full as my belly after thanksgiving.)

Quoting cloudboy (Reply 7):
As for foreigners flying withing Canada, I don't know. Wouldn't those passengers need a passport anyways?

They accepted my Texas ID.
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747WanSui
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RE: Unintentional International Passengers

Sat Nov 28, 2015 5:23 am

Another question associated with this issue would be as follows: what if one or more of the passengers on board were on the blacklist of the country of diversion (i.e. they would normally be denied entry by default because of their presence on the country's blacklist)?
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32andBelow
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RE: Unintentional International Passengers

Sat Nov 28, 2015 5:31 am

They will make it work. The passengers had no way to know they'd wind up in whatever town they wind up in. There is really no threat.
 
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Florianopolis
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RE: Unintentional International Passengers

Sat Nov 28, 2015 6:45 am

The really scary thing is if you have a perfectly legal declared firearm in your checked bag. And you don't even have to be international - just have your flight from Florida to New Hampshire divert to Newark and you might not leave New Jersey for 3 to 5 years.
 
EnviroTO
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RE: Unintentional International Passengers

Sat Nov 28, 2015 7:09 am

Quoting 26point2 (Reply 13):
Also Canada will not allow a convicted Drink Driver/DUI into their country. A felony in Canada. Really?

It is a crime with a high recidivism rate and fatal consequences. The first thing a family member is going to say when they find out they have lost a loved one to someone from out of the country who had a history of drunk driving is "who let this person into the country". The second would likely be to get angry at people who see drunk driving as no big deal.
 
runway23
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RE: Unintentional International Passengers

Sat Nov 28, 2015 7:19 am

Quoting Viscount724 (Reply 14):
At a few Schengen airports (e.g. PRG) they ask for a passport or ID card at the security check and/or at the gate but in my experience those airports are in the minority.

The big exception to that rule seems to be Spain. I have never boarded a flight from Spain to a Schengen destination without being asked to produce ID, regardless of the airline.
 
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Aeroflot777
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RE: Unintentional International Passengers

Sat Nov 28, 2015 8:48 am

Quoting LGAviation (Reply 2):
Would be even more interesting to see an intra-Schengen flight divert abroad, as in most instances you need NO ID to board a flight (true at least for ALL LH flights operated from FRA and MUC)
Quoting lancelot07 (Reply 4):
Don't remember specifically about LH at FRA and MUC, but i believe i always had to show my id card when boarding at the gate, everywhere in the Schengen area.

I can definitely agree here, as non of my Schengen flights from MUC ever force me to show ID to anyone.

What's even more strange is that no one compares ticket name to ID on non-Schengen flights either. (With the exception of North American bound flights?)

I flew Munich-Kiev last night on LH. No one throughout my entire trip had ever asked to see my ID and passport together, I could have easily flown on someone else's ticket. Used mobile check-in, went through MUC security which only asks for boarding pass, went though passport control which only asks for passport, used the self-service automated gates to enter the aircraft by scanning mobile boarding pass. In Kiev, was only asked for passport during border control as per usual.

Strange, really.

[Edited 2015-11-28 00:49:03]
 
LGAviation
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RE: Unintentional International Passengers

Sat Nov 28, 2015 9:11 am

Quoting Aeroflot777 (Reply 24):
I flew Munich-Kiev last night on LH. No one throughout my entire trip had ever asked to see my ID and passport together, I could have easily flown on someone else's ticket. Used mobile check-in, went through MUC security which only asks for boarding pass, went though passport control which only asks for passport, used the self-service automated gates to enter the aircraft by scanning mobile boarding pass. In Kiev, was only asked for passport during border control as per usual.

I absolutely agree, same is certainly true for FRA. But isn't that sort of check actually supposed to happen at check-in. After it, the boarding pass says APIS OK and you should be fine. But in the end, no one checks your boarding pass against your passport physically.
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Semaex
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RE: Unintentional International Passengers

Sat Nov 28, 2015 9:20 am

Quoting ghYHZ (Thread starter):
But what happens if it’s a purely domestic flight that diverts to an airport in another country for a medical, mechanical or weather related issue and passengers may not have the required documents? All I need to board a domestic flight in Canada is a government issued photo ID…not a passport.

Dispatch should be smart enough not to provide alternatives that are out of the Country in a domestic flight.

Keep in mind that all flights are planned, not only flown.
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axio
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RE: Unintentional International Passengers

Sat Nov 28, 2015 9:26 am

I have a vague recollection from reading the book All Four Engines Have Failed years ago about the trouble a Polish passenger had with the diversion to Jakarta, where without diplomatic relationship between Indonesia and Poland the passenger couldn't enter the country and had to remain in the terminal for an alternate flight to Australia.
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kaitak
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RE: Unintentional International Passengers

Sat Nov 28, 2015 9:26 am

I believe the US still insists on checking the passports of pax who are just transiting with no intention of entering the US, e.g. passengers flying LHR-LAX-AKL with Air New Zealand.

I've always wondered what would happen if a flight between Cuba and Canada had to divert to the US - and some US pax were on board. Maybe not an issue now, but under the previous administration... let's just say "ouch" .
 
LGAviation
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RE: Unintentional International Passengers

Sat Nov 28, 2015 9:30 am

Quoting Semaex (Reply 26):
Dispatch should be smart enough not to provide alternatives that are out of the Country in a domestic flight.

Keep in mind that all flights are planned, not only flown.

Might be true for larger countries like Canada, although even in Canada that might happen on a YVR-YYZ flight. However, in smaller countries where you have limited choice of airports i could very well picture a situation in which a domestic flight would have to divert internationally. And then there's like once every couple of months a thread on a plane diverting from AMM to TLV
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mozart
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RE: Unintentional International Passengers

Sat Nov 28, 2015 10:13 am

Ask The passengers of a flight from Paris to Beirut on Air France, which ended up landing in Damascus when Syria was already in the early stages of its Civil War. Quite a number of people on the plane who are known to be staunch opponents of the Syrian resume were frightened to death.
 
european742
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RE: Unintentional International Passengers

Sat Nov 28, 2015 10:28 am

There was this incident...

http://www.avherald.com/h?article=45bd2bc2&opt=0

As none of the passengers had Russian visas they had to wait in the gate area all that time with only VERY basic facilities. I think a vending machine is all they had! Very long wait in effectively just a room!.

I've also heard about when Atlantic Airways ran a London Stansted - Shetland Islands - Vagar route and due to fog at Shetland it carried on to Vagar. Don't know how this was dealt with though.
 
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Semaex
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RE: Unintentional International Passengers

Sat Nov 28, 2015 10:38 am

Quoting LGAviation (Reply 29):
Might be true for larger countries like Canada, although even in Canada that might happen on a YVR-YYZ flight. However, in smaller countries where you have limited choice of airports i could very well picture a situation in which a domestic flight would have to divert internationally. And then there's like once every couple of months a thread on a plane diverting from AMM to TLV

In smaller countries I doubt the availibility and reason for domestic flights.

And even then, your departure aerodrome might just be the best destination alternate.


Don't get me wrong, I understand your example about flights to AMM diverting to TLV. Might be quite a nasty situation for many passengers.
However, in such instances the authorities are informed about the possibilities of diversion, otherwise the Flight Plan would have already been rejected by Israeli authorities.


To give you a very real, practical example which I encounter frequently:
If you fly domestic in Russia to St. Petersburg, you are not allowed to file Helsinki as a destination alternate. If you do, your plan will be rejected. You have to file Moscow or anything other inside Russia.
Obviously, if you are in deep deep crap and St. Petersburg is closed five minutes before you arrive, there may be ways and means to let you divert to Finnland. You will have a hard time getting Pax through Immigration though.
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jrn216
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RE: Unintentional International Passengers

Sat Nov 28, 2015 10:46 am

I remember around 10 years ago that an Aurigny Trislander flight from Guernsey to Alderney had to divert to Dinard, an airport in the north of France, because fog had set in over the Channel Islands.

Guernsey to Alderney is a short inter-island flight and most passengers did not have their passports on them so when they arrived in Dinard they were told they could not enter France.

After being stuck at Dinard airport for a number of hours, the fog did not lift and passengers had to be accommodated overnight. In the end, they were escorted by armed guards to a local hotel until the flight eventually made its way to Alderney the next day.

An interesting story that certainly turned a short trip into more of an adventure!
 
PanHAM
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RE: Unintentional International Passengers

Sat Nov 28, 2015 10:51 am

Quoting UALWN (Reply 10):

Indeed I have flown many times between FRA/MUC and BCN on LH and have never had to show any id. Same for GVA-BCN on LX. I find it weird.


Nothing weird about that, Schengen citizens/residents are absolutely free to roam the Schengen area as they please. The curremt Situation is an exception which is time limited. It may be that you are asked for an ID on the return trip, that is local law then.

Still it is wise to carry an ID Card or passport, in many contries you Need that for registering at the Hotel desk.

As to visa, I am not sure about the number,, but Germans can access about 170 countries worldwide without needing a Visa. .Incldung Canada
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ghYHZ
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Joined: Tue Feb 26, 2008 4:26 pm

RE: Unintentional International Passengers

Sat Nov 28, 2015 11:02 am

Quoting Semaex (Reply 26):
Dispatch should be smart enough not to provide alternatives that are out of the Country in a domestic flight.

Keep in mind that all flights are planned, not only flown.

But the normal planned route IS in US airspace between YHZ and YYZ and if something happens…..it’s landing in BGR. The aircraft does not route up over the northern tip of Maine to avoid the US.

http://flightaware.com/live/flight/A...9/history/20151125/1920Z/CYHZ/CYYZ

Same out west: the route for a YVR to YYZ flight could be hundreds of miles inside US airspace for nearly the entire 4 hour flight. Again, if something happens, it’s could be going into Billings, Montana or Aberdeen, South Dakota.

http://flightaware.com/live/flight/A...2/history/20131208/2000Z/CYVR/CYYZ
 
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Semaex
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RE: Unintentional International Passengers

Sat Nov 28, 2015 11:42 am

Quoting ghYHZ (Reply 35):
But the normal planned route IS in US airspace between YHZ and YYZ and if something happens…..it’s landing in BGR. The aircraft does not route up over the northern tip of Maine to avoid the US.

That's about 100 miles through US airspace. Given groundspeed and that kind of stuff you'd spend only minutes over foreign territory. And even then, why divert to BGR when YUL is practically the same distance considering driftdown and maneouvering for arrival? It's not like you're automatically going to the airport you're overflying at 35,000ft when you've got an emergency. Besides, if you've really got an emergency you either want to land where the pax is coming from or going to (in case of medical diversions - on a personal note I'd rather be treated in Canada too), or where you have a station and your aircraft can be serviced (in case of technical failures). In both cases BGR isn't the best choice.

Quoting ghYHZ (Reply 35):
Same out west: the route for a YVR to YYZ flight could be hundreds of miles inside US airspace for nearly the entire 4 hour flight. Again, if something happens, it’s could be going into Billings, Montana or Aberdeen, South Dakota.

I give you this one, although your choice of alternates isn't the best. BIL, ok. ABR? No way. That isn't even an Airport of entry, so no good for customs. I'd go for BIL and MSP.
But take a closer look at the flight you provided, AC102. Half of the listed flights actually route further North, being in Canadian airspace for the longest time.
// You know you're an aviation enthusiast if you look at your neighbour's cars and think about fleet commonality.
 
ghYHZ
Topic Author
Posts: 416
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RE: Unintentional International Passengers

Sat Nov 28, 2015 12:29 pm

Quoting Semaex (Reply 36):
I give you this one, although your choice of alternates isn't the best. BIL, ok. ABR? No way. That isn't even an Airport of entry, so no good for customs. I'd go for BIL and MSP.
But take a closer look at the flight you provided, AC102. Half of the listed flights actually route further North, being in Canadian airspace for the longest time.

Sorry…but the point is these are planned routes over US territory. Yes, flights between YVR and YYZ do route well north across Canada but a lot are planned to cross the US.

The average route across Maine is about 150 miles and could be a lot longer….also transiting NY, VT and NH.

http://flightaware.com/live/flight/A...6/history/20151125/0405Z/CYYZ/CYHZ

On a Westjet flight last summer we entered the US over Eastport Maine and reentered Canada over Niagara Falls on our decent into Toronto.

On the flightaware example I gave in my post above, we were about 50 miles south of Aberdeen SD. If something happened and we had to get on the ground fast…..that’s where we’re going…..no matter if it has CBP or not. Just a couple of weeks ago an El Al 777 went to Billings….no CBP there either.

http://www.usatoday.com/story/travel...77-airport-billings-mont/75867774/
 
Kaiarahi
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RE: Unintentional International Passengers

Sat Nov 28, 2015 1:05 pm

Quoting 26point2 (Reply 13):
Also Canada will not allow a convicted Drink Driver/DUI into their country. A felony in Canada. Really?

Actually, not true.
Unlike the U.S., the Canadian Criminal Code is federal jurisdiction, not provincial. Unlike U.S. jurisdictions, the Code does not use a felony/misdemeanour classification. Driving at or above .08 is a criminal offence under the Code. Exclusion is not automatic and CBSA officers have discretion to admit or deny entry. If you have one DUI 8 years ago, you'll likely be admitted; if you have 3 in the last 2 years, probably not, especially if you're driving or planning to drive. The problem usually arises when someone with a prior DUI ticks 'no criminal convictions' on the landing card, because then they've lied to CBSA.
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drgmobile
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RE: Unintentional International Passengers

Sat Nov 28, 2015 1:20 pm

This happens frequently in Canada as our airports are common diversion points for trans-Oceanic flights to/from the U.S. for obvious geographic reasons. Canada Border Services Agency has procedures. If the aircraft lands at an airport where the border agency has agents, it's easier. If it doesn't, it may send them from a nearby point of entry that does have agents. Or other arrangements are made. Border agents are able to deal with passengers who would ordinarily require a visa. It's not an uncommon development.

As is life, occasionally a diversion will happen when it's a holiday, combined with storm, people out sick, etc... things don't go as planned and you hear about it in the news.
 
B777LRF
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RE: Unintentional International Passengers

Sat Nov 28, 2015 1:45 pm

Quite a few airlines will file ESMS (MMA) as an alternate for EKCH (CPH). Now, unless you're Michael O'Leary who dubbed MMA 'Copenhagen East', chances are most pax will twig to the fact they've landed in another country. Likewise, it is not unusual to file EKBI (BLL) as an alternate to EDDH (HAM).

Last, but certainly not least, the alternates filed for ELLX (LUX) will always be in another country.

Does is happen? Sure, 'all the time'. No drama whatsoever.
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LGAviation
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RE: Unintentional International Passengers

Sat Nov 28, 2015 1:54 pm

I guess also in the Arabian Gulf you could end up in a huge mess when for whatever reason BAH is closed and they choose DMM or some other Saudi airport over DOH.
2018: ADD CPH DAR DEN DME DUB FRA HAH HAM IST JIB KEF LYR MEL OSL PEK PKC PVG RAK STN SVO SYD YVR
 
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Thunderboltdrgn
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RE: Unintentional International Passengers

Sat Nov 28, 2015 2:00 pm

Quoting B777LRF (Reply 40):
Quite a few airlines will file ESMS (MMA) as an alternate for EKCH (CPH).
Now, unless you're Michael O'Leary who dubbed MMA 'Copenhagen East

Not MMA, MMX.  
Like a thunderbolt of lightning the Dragon roars across the sky. Il Drago Ruggente
 
AnsettB727
Posts: 216
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RE: Unintentional International Passengers

Sat Nov 28, 2015 2:17 pm

I was on a BA flight several Christmases ago LHR - SIN. We diverted to Kiev due to medical emergency. Anyone who was an EU citizen was landed into the Ukraine. Those of us who weren't (and there were obviously lots of Australians heading home for Christmas on that flight) ended up spending 20 hours at the airport. That's what happens. Not quite sure why BA chose Kiev over, say, Warsaw.
 
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Aeroflot777
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RE: Unintentional International Passengers

Sat Nov 28, 2015 3:01 pm

Quoting AnsettB727 (Reply 43):
Not quite sure why BA chose Kiev over, say, Warsaw.

Don't want to state the obvious, but perhaps because Kiev and Warsaw are quite a distance apart and you were landing due to a medical emergency which assumes you need to be wheels down ASAP so that a person can get medical attention?

The better question here is why it took BA 20 hours to get you out of KBP again considering London-Kiev takes an average of 2hr35min in-flight. A properly coordinated effort should have accommodated inconvenienced passengers way sooner.

[Edited 2015-11-28 07:21:58]
 
DTWPurserBoy
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RE: Unintentional International Passengers

Sat Nov 28, 2015 3:02 pm

We had a flight several years back from BOM to AMS that had a mechanical and the captain elected to divert to Tehran--with about an equal mix of Indian and American passengers. He decided to divert there because at one time he had lived there and spoke Farsi. Anyway, it turned out fine. The Iranians were most hospitable, took excellent care of the passengers and crew, fed them well and as soon as the plane was repaired they continued on to AMS.

I understand he had a very personal one-on-one chat with the Chief Pilot regarding his selection of alternates.
Qualified on Concorde/B707/B720/B727/B737/B747/B757/B767/B777/DC-8/DC-9/DC-10/A319/A320/A330/MD-88-90
 
rfields5421
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RE: Unintentional International Passengers

Sat Nov 28, 2015 3:15 pm

Nations realize that airline travel diversions and emergencies may result in many people arriving in their country without visas.

All the nations work together to ensure such situations are handled without undue difficulty.

Several times aircraft from the US, or aircraft carrying US citizens, have diverted to Iran. US companies have even had to pay Iran for repairs, fuel, etc.

Just as described above - such situations are handled with professionalism and courtesy.

Because of geographical location, the US gets very few of that type diversion.
 
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bwest
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RE: Unintentional International Passengers

Sat Nov 28, 2015 3:20 pm

The same situation can happen to transiting passengers. For instance in Brussels, SN would often fly pax from JFK to a destination in Africa, with a transit in Brussels. In normal circumstances, these passengers wouldn't have to pass the border control in Brussels. However, when a flight gets cancelled, the fun begins. US citizens ofcourse can come in without a visa, but lots of African countries need a visa. Those people often have to spend the night in transit. And quite a few don't seem to understand that a green card has zero value in Europe...
 
nonrevman
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RE: Unintentional International Passengers

Sat Nov 28, 2015 3:41 pm

I just realized that a diversion of a domestic flight to a foreign destination would require common sense from both countries involved. The country receiving the diverting flight would have to realize that many of the passengers will likely not have passports, and certainly will not have visas if applicable. I would also think that the most likely reason for a diversion would be a mechanical or maybe a medical emergency. If it is mechanical, you are likely going to have to wait for mechanics and possibly parts to be flown in for the repair. That means an extended stay for the passengers, so holding them on the plane is probably not a good option.

Then, there is the question of the final destination. Let's say you were flying Anchorage to Seattle and had to divert to Vancouver for a mechanical. You got off in Vancouver and maybe were kept somewhere in the terminal until they could get you out. Would Seattle now treat the flight as an arriving international flight now that it is coming from Vancouver? In other words, would US citizens suddenly have to clear immigration and customs with nothing more than a drivers license?
 
LGAviation
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RE: Unintentional International Passengers

Sat Nov 28, 2015 3:47 pm

Quoting bwest (Reply 47):
The same situation can happen to transiting passengers. For instance in Brussels, SN would often fly pax from JFK to a destination in Africa, with a transit in Brussels. In normal circumstances, these passengers wouldn't have to pass the border control in Brussels. However, when a flight gets cancelled, the fun begins. US citizens ofcourse can come in without a visa, but lots of African countries need a visa. Those people often have to spend the night in transit. And quite a few don't seem to understand that a green card has zero value in Europe...

And then there's this LH FRA-ADD service that I used to fly on back when it was still routed via KRT (now it is JED I suppose, but that isn't better for visa purposes). If the plane had some sort of issue and passengers would have to disembark in Sudan (or now Saudi Arabia) without a visa or anything sure would be quite a scene.

Quoting nonrevman (Reply 48):
You got off in Vancouver and maybe were kept somewhere in the terminal until they could get you out. Would Seattle now treat the flight as an arriving international flight now that it is coming from Vancouver? In other words, would US citizens suddenly have to clear immigration and customs with nothing more than a drivers license?

Although it's not CBP policy to accept anything but a passport as valid ID at airports, I can't imagine that they'd make this an issue as long as it is ensured that the Canadians (I know Americans tend to be a little skeptical of foreign standards, but I mean it's Canada) didn't let anybody aboard that wasn't aboard originally.

Quoting Aeroflot777 (Reply 44):
Don't want to state the obvious, but perhaps because Kiev and Warsaw are quite a distance apart and you were landing due to a medical emergency which assumes you need to be wheels down ASAP so that a person can get medical attention?

The better question here is why it took BA 20 hours to get you out of KBP again considering London-Kiev takes an average of 2hr35min in-flight. A properly coordinated effort should have accommodated inconvenienced passengers way sooner.

Totally agree, I think there's no reason to stay on the ground for 20 hours if the plane doesn't have an issue and diverted for a medical emergency.
2018: ADD CPH DAR DEN DME DUB FRA HAH HAM IST JIB KEF LYR MEL OSL PEK PKC PVG RAK STN SVO SYD YVR

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