744lover
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Impressive Citation Jet Takeoff From Courchevel

Sat Nov 28, 2015 3:24 am

Really interesting takeoff from Courchevel...

The aircraft did not even lift of by the end of the runway having, in my opinion, even lost a few feet after the runway ended.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YfBaMM9bdck


Enjoy!  
744lover
 
citationjet
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RE: Impressive Citation Jet Takeoff From Courchevel

Sat Nov 28, 2015 1:36 pm

Citation 551, N127BU, 551-0179. Definitely used all the runway.
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citationjet
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RE: Impressive Citation Jet Takeoff From Courchevel

Sat Nov 28, 2015 1:42 pm

N127BU

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Photo © Terry Wade

Boeing Flown: 701,702,703;717;720;721,722;731,732,733,734,735,737,738,739;741,742,743,744,747SP;752,753;762,763;772,773.
 
Toni_
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RE: Impressive Citation Jet Takeoff From Courchevel

Sat Nov 28, 2015 2:16 pm

I see it was posted a few years ago but never saw it before, so thanks for sharing.
It made me search for footage of the landing which I absolutely would love to see but unfortunately couldn't find. I did come across a video of this same take off shot from another spot though: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=c6Wr3ilAWpo Very impressive indeed!  Wow!
 
744lover
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RE: Impressive Citation Jet Takeoff From Courchevel

Sat Nov 28, 2015 2:28 pm

Yep.... A few things to consider from this other perspective:

- The pilot set takeoff power before releasing the brakes
- V1 at brakes release?      


BR,
744lover
 
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TheRedBaron
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RE: Impressive Citation Jet Takeoff From Courchevel

Sat Nov 28, 2015 2:36 pm

I was going to post something about that take off then I saw this:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZwZpaoUVuAA

and totally forgot...  

TRB

[Edited 2015-11-28 06:40:25]
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SASDC8
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RE: Impressive Citation Jet Takeoff From Courchevel

Sat Nov 28, 2015 3:34 pm

Wow!

Did they even pull back on the stick before the edge? Almost seems like the just flew right off it.
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cschleic
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RE: Impressive Citation Jet Takeoff From Courchevel

Sat Nov 28, 2015 4:06 pm

Had that carrier take off look...a little dip right after leaving the runway before starting to climb.
 
SpaceshipDC10
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RE: Impressive Citation Jet Takeoff From Courchevel

Sat Nov 28, 2015 4:31 pm

Quoting 744lover (Thread starter):
in my opinion, even lost a few feet after the runway ended.

It definitely followed the curve downward.
 
B777LRF
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RE: Impressive Citation Jet Takeoff From Courchevel

Sat Nov 28, 2015 5:10 pm

The only thing impressive about this, is the pilots lack of skills.

This is a screen grab from the T/O, clearly showing both mains still on the ground when there's no more runway left.

http://i68.tinypic.com/2h58rhy.png

Idiot.
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G500
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RE: Impressive Citation Jet Takeoff From Courchevel

Sat Nov 28, 2015 6:17 pm

Jesus Christ. Even Aircraft carrier fighter jet pilots would say. "That was spooky"

Wow.
 
UALWN
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RE: Impressive Citation Jet Takeoff From Courchevel

Sat Nov 28, 2015 7:49 pm

Quoting TheRedBaron (Reply 5):
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZwZpaoUVuAA

That's very impressive too in its own way.
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SteinarN
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RE: Impressive Citation Jet Takeoff From Courchevel

Sat Nov 28, 2015 8:28 pm

How the heck do they do an aborted takeoff?!?
 
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DocLightning
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RE: Impressive Citation Jet Takeoff From Courchevel

Sat Nov 28, 2015 8:41 pm

Quoting SteinarN (Reply 12):

How the heck do they do an aborted takeoff?!?

By falling off the end and dying.
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SteinarN
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RE: Impressive Citation Jet Takeoff From Courchevel

Sat Nov 28, 2015 8:48 pm

Quoting DocLightning (Reply 13):


By falling off the end and dying.

Ohh.. better check the engines and tires extra carefully before takeoff then..
 
egph
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RE: Impressive Citation Jet Takeoff From Courchevel

Sat Nov 28, 2015 9:43 pm

I was under the impression this type of the departure was the norm at Courchevel
 
SpaceshipDC10
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RE: Impressive Citation Jet Takeoff From Courchevel

Sat Nov 28, 2015 10:20 pm

Quoting EGPH (Reply 15):
I was under the impression this type of the departure was the norm at Courchevel

Not sure whether it is or not, but it wouldn't surprise me since the runway is only 537m / 1,762ft long and 2,008 m / 6,588 ft AMSL.
 
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pvjin
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RE: Impressive Citation Jet Takeoff From Courchevel

Sat Nov 28, 2015 10:26 pm

Quoting B777LRF (Reply 9):

I'm not that convinced it would be even possible to lift off before end of the runway with an aircraft of that size, I certainly can't see it happening in this video either:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=c6Wr3ilAWpo
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JetBuddy
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RE: Impressive Citation Jet Takeoff From Courchevel

Sat Nov 28, 2015 10:47 pm

Quoting pvjin (Reply 17):
I'm not that convinced it would be even possible to lift off before end of the runway with an aircraft of that size, I certainly can't see it happening in this video either:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=c6Wr3ilAWpo

Wow. It looks like some ski jumper when it tips down onto the slope. Very cool to watch.
 
Pacific
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RE: Impressive Citation Jet Takeoff From Courchevel

Sun Nov 29, 2015 3:03 am

Quoting pvjin (Reply 17):
I'm not that convinced it would be even possible to lift off before end of the runway with an aircraft of that size, I certainly can't see it happening in this video either:

A 50 seat STOL turboprop can actually lift off before the end of the runway.
http://youtu.be/55SswKIn18A?t=9m4s





[Edited 2015-11-28 19:04:39]
 
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DocLightning
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RE: Impressive Citation Jet Takeoff From Courchevel

Sun Nov 29, 2015 3:31 am

So part of the problem is that the end of the runway tilts down so even if the aircraft rotates it may not be able to rotate to a positive AOA without striking the tail, so the only option is to jump off the end and THEN pull up.
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Aesma
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RE: Impressive Citation Jet Takeoff From Courchevel

Sun Nov 29, 2015 4:04 am

The AOA is not linked to the horizontal, the plane can rotate as much as on an horizontal runway, and should fly, albeit still going "downhill", but less so than the runway.
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rwessel
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RE: Impressive Citation Jet Takeoff From Courchevel

Sun Nov 29, 2015 9:34 am

The real question is can you save fuel by having a few burly baggage handlers give you a good shove at the top of the runway, and then get a windmill start on the way down?
 
Dufo
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RE: Impressive Citation Jet Takeoff From Courchevel

Sun Nov 29, 2015 9:49 am

I don't see a large safety issue here, speaking for private operation. As both engines simply do not fail simultaneously on such planes,
there is no need for aborting the takeoff here. After the runway you have more than 1km of available elevation drop (potential energy) at disposal, which
is more than enough to put the plane in proper energy state. If you abort, you abort in the valley below, not on this runway. There are recommended emergency landing sites prescribed in AIP.

Been there, flown it, survived it. In a single engine.
I seriously think I just creamed my pants without any influence from any outside variables.
 
goldorak
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RE: Impressive Citation Jet Takeoff From Courchevel

Sun Nov 29, 2015 10:21 am

Quoting SteinarN (Reply 12):
How the heck do they do an aborted takeoff?!?
Quoting DocLightning (Reply 13):
By falling off the end and dying.

     
 
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DocLightning
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RE: Impressive Citation Jet Takeoff From Courchevel

Sun Nov 29, 2015 10:30 am

Quoting goldorak (Reply 24):

You laugh but it's on a steep downward incline so brakes and reverse thrust will only forestall the inevitable. There's a cliff right off the end of the runway and then below that cliff a line of trees. Basically, if you stuff up the take off, buh-bye.
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Aesma
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RE: Impressive Citation Jet Takeoff From Courchevel

Sun Nov 29, 2015 4:42 pm

As long as you're taking off, the downhill runway is like having a longer runway. As soon as you need to abort, it's like you're on a ridiculously small runway.
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TC957
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RE: Impressive Citation Jet Takeoff From Courchevel

Sun Nov 29, 2015 9:05 pm

Is the C500 / 525 Citation series the only biz-jets capable, or allowed, to use CVF ?
 
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TWA772LR
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RE: Impressive Citation Jet Takeoff From Courchevel

Sun Nov 29, 2015 9:51 pm

Quoting Pacific (Reply 19):
50 seat STOL turboprop can actually lift off before the end of the runway.
http://youtu.be/55SswKIn18A?t=9m4s


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incitatus
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RE: Impressive Citation Jet Takeoff From Courchevel

Sun Nov 29, 2015 10:30 pm

Quoting SpaceshipDC10 (Reply 16):
Not sure whether it is or not, but it wouldn't surprise me since the runway is only 537m / 1,762ft long and 2,008 m / 6,588 ft AMSL.

Very impressive! Is this even legal???
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Okie
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RE: Impressive Citation Jet Takeoff From Courchevel

Sun Nov 29, 2015 11:00 pm

Quoting Aesma (Reply 26):
As long as you're taking off, the downhill runway is like having a longer runway. As soon as you need to abort, it's like you're on a ridiculously small runway.

18.5deg slope. I counted 10 seconds from the linked video of actual time on the runway after racing across the flat area of the ramp.
Not sure you are going to respond much other than continue your take-off if there is an issue with a turbine.

According to the most dangerous airports it rates safer than Lukla, Nepal.


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26point2
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RE: Impressive Citation Jet Takeoff From Courchevel

Sun Nov 29, 2015 11:55 pm

Not sure about the Citation but every jet I have flown is limited to runway slope +/-2%. All performance data is predicated on this. Industry standard I would think.
 
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DocLightning
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RE: Impressive Citation Jet Takeoff From Courchevel

Tue Dec 01, 2015 12:06 am

Quoting 26point2 (Reply 31):

Not sure about the Citation but every jet I have flown is limited to runway slope +/-2%. All performance data is predicated on this. Industry standard I would think.

I have a feeling that this was not a Part 121 commercial operation.
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flight152
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RE: Impressive Citation Jet Takeoff From Courchevel

Tue Dec 01, 2015 12:25 am

Quoting DocLightning (Reply 32):

If it's an aircraft limitation, it doesn't matter what rules it's flown under.
 
32andBelow
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RE: Impressive Citation Jet Takeoff From Courchevel

Tue Dec 01, 2015 1:02 am

Quoting flight152 (Reply 33):
If it's an aircraft limitation, it doesn't matter what rules it's flown under.

I'm sure in the original piper cub manual they weren't accounting for people landing them on ridges, or dropping off cliffs, yet it happens every summer in the North.
 
DiamondFlyer
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RE: Impressive Citation Jet Takeoff From Courchevel

Tue Dec 01, 2015 1:12 am

Quoting flight152 (Reply 33):
If it's an aircraft limitation, it doesn't matter what rules it's flown under.

Sure, but that would require it being written as a limitation. Much like the crosswind "limitation" on single engine Cessna's. It's in the limitation section, but it's a Max Demonstrated number, not a hard limit.

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26point2
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RE: Impressive Citation Jet Takeoff From Courchevel

Tue Dec 01, 2015 1:19 am

Quoting flight152 (Reply 33):

Correct.

Quoting 32andBelow (Reply 34):

A Cub or most any other single engined prop plane is certified under Part 23. Gives the operator a wide margin and Flying off a mountain top is not specifically prohibited. A Citaition or any other Transport Category jet is certified under Part 25, a much more restrictive set of rules and while flying off a mountain top may not be specifically prohibited other things to consider such as runway slope or type of surface is. If the OEM wants to certify the jet for mountain top operations I suppose it can get certification but must provide performance data to the operator to make it all legit. This is one reason why we don't see 777 landing on grass or upon mountain tops.
 
32andBelow
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RE: Impressive Citation Jet Takeoff From Courchevel

Tue Dec 01, 2015 1:44 am

Quoting 26point2 (Reply 36):
A Cub or most any other single engined prop plane is certified under Part 23. Gives the operator a wide margin and Flying off a mountain top is not specifically prohibited. A Citaition or any other Transport Category jet is certified under Part 25, a much more restrictive set of rules and while flying off a mountain top may not be specifically prohibited other things to consider such as runway slope or type of surface is. If the OEM wants to certify the jet for mountain top operations I suppose it can get certification but must provide performance data to the operator to make it all legit. This is one reason why we don't see 777 landing on grass or upon mountain tops.

Well what we do know is someone drove a cessna jet off a mountain top. Also none of these parts apply in France.
 
26point2
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RE: Impressive Citation Jet Takeoff From Courchevel

Tue Dec 01, 2015 2:03 am

Quoting 32andBelow (Reply 37):

???

This aircraft was built in the U.S., certified by the FAA, and must be flown within its approved limitations regardless of where in the world it operates. I think you are confusing Operating rules with aircraft limitations.

Plenty of people do ridiculous things and often get away with it but it's not always smart or legal. This is one of those things....neither smart nor legal.
 
32andBelow
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RE: Impressive Citation Jet Takeoff From Courchevel

Tue Dec 01, 2015 2:14 am

Quoting 26point2 (Reply 38):
???

This aircraft was built in the U.S., certified by the FAA, and must be flown within its approved limitations regardless of where in the world it operates. I think you are confusing Operating rules with aircraft limitations.

How would a US limitation apply to other countries? For example if he did this in Ghana, is the FBI going to come and do something?
 
incitatus
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RE: Impressive Citation Jet Takeoff From Courchevel

Tue Dec 01, 2015 3:02 am

This being the AIRLINER forum, I got to wonder how much runway an empty 757 would take to pull the same type of take-off.

A lightly loaded 757 at sea level takes off within 3,000 ft without gunning it prior to brake release.
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airportugal310
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RE: Impressive Citation Jet Takeoff From Courchevel

Tue Dec 01, 2015 3:08 am

Quoting incitatus (Reply 40):

This being the AIRLINER forum, I got to wonder how much runway an empty 757 would take to pull the same type of take-off.

A lightly loaded 757 at sea level takes off within 3,000 ft without gunning it prior to brake release.

Well I think the key to getting it OUT is being able to get it IN first!!  
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Aircellist
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RE: Impressive Citation Jet Takeoff From Courchevel

Tue Dec 01, 2015 3:49 am

Quoting TheRedBaron (Reply 5):
I was going to post something about that take off then I saw this:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZwZpaoUVuAA

and totally forgot...  

I understand how and why one could forget…
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