BA Flies JER-LGW, Why Not LHR?

mozart · Sat Nov 28, 2015 9:43 pm

Anyone knows why BA serves Jersey from Gatwick rather than from Heathrow? I thought there would be enough connecting traffic from JER to justify that? And slots shouldn't really be an isse as BA has "slot holder" flights whose only econonomic justification is not to lose the slots.

Thanks for any insights

AA100 · Sat Nov 28, 2015 9:59 pm

Not sure why, I would love to see LHR-JER happen even just 2x daily.

skipness1E · Sat Nov 28, 2015 11:05 pm

They moved JER from LHR to LGW in the 1990s IIRC. Good loads and yield, CE is offered but even with the expanded slots post BMI it never moved back. It was moved to make way for long haul, as was the Manx IOM and BRY west country services. They were desperate for long haul slots then, pressure has eased since.

TC957 · Sun Nov 29, 2015 8:55 pm

I'm sure the local JER business community would very much welcome a return to LHR. But it's the old issue of suitable LHR slots as usual, as to make it viable peak morning and evening slots will most probably be needed.

AA100 · Sun Nov 29, 2015 9:02 pm

Its funny because BA do slot sit and have extra frequencies to AMS etc. so they could probably fit a JER return or two, but perhaps it is a timing issue and the right slots to make it viable.

[email protected] · Sun Nov 29, 2015 9:06 pm

bmi launched LHR-JER in 2007 2x daily. I flew it a few times (320) and always pretty inexpensive and quite low loads.

kdhurst380 · Sun Nov 29, 2015 9:37 pm

Flew the route earlier in the year, A319 out, 737-400 (now history) back. Both flights full, Club Europe curtain 4 or 5 rows back and full. Seems to work for them.

jrn216 · Sun Nov 29, 2015 9:55 pm

BA does well out of Jersey with 5 or 6 daily flights and Club Europe is normally well-used - I was in the 8th row of CE last Tuesday.

I guess BA could put on a Heathrow - Jersey flight, say, twice a day to capture transferring passengers but there is limited competition so there is no pressure to...BA will have done the maths I am sure. A lot of the traffic will be going on into central London in any event.

A Heathrow flight would make life slightly easier as it would mean less time spent transferring round the M25, but its never been too much trouble from my experiences.

[Edited 2015-11-29 13:59:46]

cornishsimon · Sun Nov 29, 2015 9:58 pm

Iv flown the LGW - JER route numerous times in both Y and J and the flights are always full in both cabins.

My guess is that this is a cash cow for BA @ LGW and regardless of suitable LHR slots, if it's working why move the service ?

I could however see a well times JER-LCY service to offer onward JFK connections, however once the LGW New York route kicks in it's doubtful even that would be needed !

cs

LX138 · Mon Nov 30, 2015 1:17 pm

I think a 2 x daily LHR route could work, but it would probably have to replace the LGW service or at least equivalent flight times as there is currently a lot of capacity on JER-LON.

Quoting Cornishsimon (Reply 8):
I could however see a well times JER-LCY service to offer onward JFK connections, however once the LGW New York route kicks in it's doubtful even that would be needed !

I doubt too many people connect to the LCY-JFK flights, but if they did LCY they'd also be competing with BI which would certainly stir things up a bit fare wise.

FlyCaledonian · Mon Nov 30, 2015 7:53 pm

As a relatively high frequency route for BA at LGW this one seems to work where it is. Thameslink train connections into the City mean that it probably works well for business travellers, whilst leisure travel helps fill it up to. Adding some flights at LHR and/or LCY at the expense of some LGW frequencies maybe is considerd to affect the overall attractiveness of the route. Once Crossrail opens and LHR has a direct link to the City it will be interesting to see what happens.

audidudi · Mon Nov 30, 2015 8:45 pm

I started to fly JER>LHR in the sixties, flying on BEA Pionairs (DC-3s), Tridents, Vanguards and Viscounts, and then later on B737s, once the jets took over the route. I have wonderful memories of the prop aircraft especially!

bananaboy · Tue Dec 01, 2015 6:20 pm

Tridents in Jersey? Wow. Had heard they were underpowered on some Discovery Channel documentary. I know they would have not required much fuel but with full passenger load, how would they have coped with the relatively short runway?

Mark

sierra3tango · Tue Dec 01, 2015 6:41 pm

Quoting bananaboy (Reply 12):
Tridents in Jersey?

Didn't appear very often, but certainly saw a few in the early mid 70s. Usually after bad wx or some sort disruption.

fcogafa · Tue Dec 01, 2015 7:12 pm

In the 80s/90s BA often used B757s on the LHR-JER route, and sometimes even Tristars, which was pretty impressive off a 5100ft runway

[Edited 2015-12-01 11:42:20]

N1120A · Wed Dec 02, 2015 5:14 am

The vast majority of traffic to/from JER is UK-centric. The little bit of transfer can do the dance, and is likely to have business somewhere else anyway.

Quoting [email protected] (Reply 5):
bmi launched LHR-JER in 2007 2x daily. I flew it a few times (320) and always pretty inexpensive and quite low loads.

BD couldn't offer the same connections as BA.

Quoting fcogafa (Reply 14):
which was pretty impressive off a 5100ft runway

JER has a 5600' runway.

skipness1E · Wed Dec 02, 2015 10:17 am

Quoting N1120A (Reply 15):
The little bit of transfer can do the dance, and is likely to have business somewhere else anyway.

You have numbers to back this up? There's a lot of high yielding traffic that would love connecting opportunities but is denied them at LGW. "Doing the dance" as you put it, is a sheer PITA. Given the number of multi daily rourtes to less business friendly destinations from LHR you can make a good case for moving JER back to LHR I think, ir and when Runway 3 is opened, I have little doubt BA will move it, and all of LGW long haul, back to LHR.

Quoting N1120A (Reply 15):
JER has a 5600' runway.

Firmly still in "impressive for an L1011 category" though I think we can both agree.

stratocruiser · Wed Dec 02, 2015 10:22 am

I would think that BA's main justification for JER-LHR flights would be transfer traffic and, given the wealth in the island, one would expect that the proportion of premium traffic would be quite large. However, as there are no flights perhaps BA have calculated that the numbers are simply inadequate to warrant using valuable LHR slots.

Curiousflyer · Wed Dec 02, 2015 11:27 am

Also, the wealth in JER may like to remain discreet... Business travelers might be happier landing in a quieter airport. They might even think that buying a trip to JFK on a single ticket would draw attention anyway...

AAMDanny · Wed Dec 02, 2015 11:51 am

I'm pretty sure BD was offered an incentive from the local government in Jersey to start the LHR-JER route, once the financial incentive finished BD pulled out of the route, BA wasn't interested in restarting a direct LHR link.

Don't forget that JER has a lot of competition to pretty much every major airport in the UK, and LGW to central London is only 30 minutes via the Gatwick Express.

skipness1E · Wed Dec 02, 2015 12:06 pm

Quoting Curiousflyer (Reply 18):
Also, the wealth in JER may like to remain discreet... Business travelers might be happier landing in a quieter airport. They might even think that buying a trip to JFK on a single ticket would draw attention anyway...

I don't this is remotely true. I have yet to meet a business traveller who thought a schlep between LHR and LGW on the M25 was a proper use of anyone's valuable time.... Draw attention to what exactly? It's hardly a tax haven nowadays lol.

Quoting AAMDanny (Reply 19):
Don't forget that JER has a lot of competition to pretty much every major airport in the UK, and LGW to central London is only 30 minutes via the Gatwick Express.

However not a lot of options connecting out ot Gatters if you're not a fan of easyJet or BA sun routes.

Lofty · Wed Dec 02, 2015 12:34 pm

Is LHR T5 set-up to handle a JER operations. It would have to use the same Gate 23 for arrivals as the DUB.

AAMDanny · Wed Dec 02, 2015 1:07 pm

Quoting skipness1E (Reply 20):
However not a lot of options connecting out ot Gatters if you're not a fan of easyJet or BA sun routes.

If the market for connections was strong enough, BA would have started the route from LHR...

BE offers a lot of connections via hubs like BHX for those pax who want to go somewhere else.

skipness1E · Wed Dec 02, 2015 3:08 pm

Quoting AAMDanny (Reply 22):
If the market for connections was strong enough, BA would have started the route from LHR...

It was started at LHR, it all kicked off when it was moved to LGW in the 90s and the Jersey customers have been wanting it back ever since. If they can serve LBA with the load factor hanging by a thread, I do wonder why JER wasn't a stronger option for those slots. P2P is very strong and that's where the money is (allegedly), there's qiute a few routes out of LHR that don't seem to support much in the way of connections at all. Perhaps we're missing something?

Johnwaynebobbet · Thu Dec 03, 2015 12:27 am

Quoting skipness1E (Reply 23):
It was started at LHR, it all kicked off when it was moved to LGW in the 90s and the Jersey customers have been wanting it back ever since.

I have waned to win the lottery too but its not happened.

N1120A · Thu Dec 03, 2015 12:35 am

Quoting skipness1E (Reply 16):

Firmly still in "impressive for an L1011 category" though I think we can both agree.

Well, they did build them at BUR

Quoting Lofty (Reply 21):
Is LHR T5 set-up to handle a JER operations. It would have to use the same Gate 23 for arrivals as the DUB.

Couldn't they use whatever they use for domestic flights? Or does JER require customs?

skipness1E · Thu Dec 03, 2015 9:54 am

Quoting Johnwaynebobbet (Reply 24):
I have waned to win the lottery too but its not happened.

Nicely sarcastic but LBA and INV came back and I would say JER has a stronger business balance. You disagree?

Quoting N1120A (Reply 25):
Couldn't they use whatever they use for domestic flights? Or does JER require customs?

Jersey and the Channel Islands as well as the Isle of Man are Crown Dependencies, British Territory outside the United Kingdom but within the Common Travel Area of the UK and Ireland. So no passport required but there's a Customs issue. I think (!)

rutankrd · Thu Dec 03, 2015 10:42 am

Quoting skipness1E (Reply 26):
Nicely sarcastic but LBA and INV came back and I would say JER has a stronger business balance. You disagree?

Quoting N1120A (Reply 25):
Couldn't they use whatever they use for domestic flights? Or does JER require customs?

Jersey and the Channel Islands as well as the Isle of Man are Crown Dependencies, British Territory outside the United Kingdom but within the Common Travel Area of the UK and Ireland. So no passport required but there's a Customs issue. I think (!)

Yes there are tax and duty issues from the bailiwicks - Neither are EU members and there is no VAT levied.
You can still bring your "duty free" allowances from these isles and clearly the Customs took for over carriage and drugs and illicit currency from these parts = The isles private maritime traffic has a long history in these trades !

As for the whole debate -the inference that Jersey - Gatwick on BA has somehow existed because of limited Heathrow slot availability is somewhat skewed.

BEA through British Airways - Channel Isles to the British Airways Gatwick operations today have operated for decades.

At times in the seventies these might have been the only regular scheduled BA flights into/out of Gatwick and operated with good old Viscounts and ex Cambrian BAC 1-11-400s

shuttle9juliet · Thu Dec 03, 2015 4:25 pm

Quoting rutankrd (Reply 27):

We use to send the 75 down there too, plus I think also for maintenance in the early 90s

[email protected] · Thu Dec 03, 2015 4:34 pm

Quoting N1120A (Reply 15):

BD couldn't offer the same connections as BA.

JER-LON is very much a local market.

N1120A · Thu Dec 03, 2015 4:39 pm

Quoting [email protected] (Reply 29):
JER-LON is very much a local market.

I agree and already said that.

rutankrd · Thu Dec 03, 2015 5:13 pm

Quoting shuttle9juliet (Reply 28):
We use to send the 75 down there too, plus I think also for maintenance in the early 90s

True BA has flown just about every narrow body and Jet prop they have ever owned or franchised through the Bailiwicks.

Including the 757 and as said above the occasional Tristar 1

Up to the the point of dismantling BA regional operations many of the UK regional airports had regular connections to Jersey and seasonal flights to Guernsey in addition to London.

In fact in the seventies Jersey was the 4th busiest UK airport on summer Saturdays and BA was their largest carrier by far.

Times a change, however the Gatwick link is now used by quite a few dual property owners "often in the finance industries"
to shuttle between the isle and their Surrey/City weekday pads !

Until Crossrail is up and running Gatwick then direct heavy rail to London Bridge, City Thames Link and Farringdon stations remain far more convenient than any potential Heathrow offering for these individuals.

JerseyFlyer · Thu Dec 03, 2015 9:00 pm

Gatwick is best for a business day from Jersey to the City of London because of the direct train to London Bridge - 30 mins train then a scenic walk across the bridge.

But for a long haul connection, a LHR link would be very welcome.

jrn216 · Thu Dec 03, 2015 9:19 pm

This thread is bringing back a lot of good memories

British Airways sent the 757 down to Jersey ever so often up until the early 2000s.

Alongside Heathrow, British Cityflyer also operated to Gatwick with a mix of ATRs and RJ 100s, which was upgraded to the 737 when Heathrow was dropped.

Again, the franchises were also common down in the island in various guises until 2005. Most were simply Saturday flights for the tourism industry to destinations across the UK and Ireland – I recall, for example, flying Jersey to Cork in 1997 on a Manx Jetstream 41. In the back of my mind, I am also pretty certain that, amongst the usual destinations like Bristol, Manchester, Southampton etc., there were charter flights from destinations like Enniskillen, Prestwick, Norwich, Sheffield and Hannover.

Things have changed a lot and tourism has declined significantly, but we are still fairly lucky to have a wide range of destinations with easyJet, Flybe and so on, plus Saturday flights to several Northern European destinations.

JerseyFlyer · Thu Dec 03, 2015 10:01 pm

Not quite LHR but close!!

http://jerseyeveningpost.com/news/20...gain-have-easy-access-to-heathrow/

PieterBoth · Sat Dec 05, 2015 9:47 am

Did AF or any other French regional airline ever serve Jersey? There doesn't seem to be a service to France today. Is there no demand or I guess the demand there is use a ferry service from Cherbourg?

LHRFlyer · Sat Dec 05, 2015 12:12 pm

When IAG acquired bmi BA moved LUX and MRS from LGW to LHR. I was surprised LHR-JER wasn't started as well.

BA seems to have a loyal market in JER and I guess it doesn't feel the competitive pressure to move the flight.

That said, there has been a trend of late for LHR & LGW to run more parallel routes (VIE, BCN etc) and it has returned to a lot of markets at LHR so who knows?

Humberside · Sat Dec 05, 2015 7:13 pm

Quoting PieterBoth (Reply 35):
Did AF or any other French regional airline ever serve Jersey? There doesn't seem to be a service to France today. Is there no demand or I guess the demand there is use a ferry service from Cherbourg?

Twinjet used too. They flew Cherbourg-ORY-Cherbourg-Jersey in the morning, and the reverse in the evening.

Guernsey remains connected to France - Aurigny fly to Dinard, and have a ski service to Grenoble

jrn216 · Sat Dec 05, 2015 10:56 pm

The last service to France was with Blue Islands to CDG, but that ended at the beginning of 2015. Flights to Paris have a patchy history with various airlines over the years. It's an important market but, generally, travel to/from France is focused on Brittany and Normandy, with regular ferry services catering for the demand.

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