717atOGG
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Why Did QX Retire Their CRJ's?

Sat Nov 28, 2015 11:39 pm

I know that QX had CRJ-700's from ~2001 to 2011. Why did they retire them? They looked good and seemed to accompany the Q400's quite nicely.


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alasizon
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RE: Why Did QX Retire Their CRJ's?

Sun Nov 29, 2015 1:16 am

Single fleet type commonality was the biggest.

Second more so was lining up with what AS wanted. As the 7s were "retired", the removal of the QX brand followed.
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flyboy80
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RE: Why Did QX Retire Their CRJ's?

Sun Nov 29, 2015 1:27 am

I still think they should have kept the Horizon Air brand alive. I always wondered if there was any real benefit known from retiring the Horizon brand, or if it was more or less "simplicity" sought after by Alaska's board.

Does Horizon offer the Alaska branded service now more or less? I remember when Horizon had their own inflight magazine, beer and wine service, and snacks you wouldn't find on Alaska.
 
mwh787
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RE: Why Did QX Retire Their CRJ's?

Sun Nov 29, 2015 2:25 am

These CRJ planes are now operated by OO on a capacity purchase agreement with AS. So they are still flying in AS colors
 
flyoregon
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RE: Why Did QX Retire Their CRJ's?

Sun Nov 29, 2015 2:41 am

Quoting flyboy80 (Reply 2):
I still think they should have kept the Horizon Air brand alive. I always wondered if there was any real benefit known from retiring the Horizon brand, or if it was more or less "simplicity" sought after by Alaska's board.

Horizon was struggling financially so in order to keep going, they entered a capacity purchase agreement with Alaska under which required Alaska branding to be shown on Horizon flights on varying levels. While it is sad to see the Horizon brand gone from flights, it was a necessity that unfortunately had to be done. Horizon had their own network planning and marketing and everything else necessary to run an airline, and it was a unique regional airline with a strong partnership with another airline...but it cost too much. Now, Alaska tells Horizon where to fly, when to fly, etc. and even though somewhat controversial internally, necessary.

Now Horizon is trying to figure out what to do and how to lower costs. Half the Q400 fleet will be retired/returned to lessor in the next few years which would require huge cuts in staffing to stay afloat with no clear aircraft replacement unless management is able to bring costs down below $300+ per block hour in order to make a case to be "rewarded" jet flying for Alaska Airlines. I'm 50/50 in my optimism, but that's a huge cost reduction, and even though there is a lot of redundancies and inefficiencies, they're in places that aren't easy to cut pay or jobs due to union influence.

If Horizon doesn't get the jets and loses half the fleet in the next few years, the Horizon Q400 will be very small with OO replacing longer routes previously operated by QX, and I could see a few things happening that aren't favorable for QX.

So...short story long, it is sad to see the Horizon brand gone, and it's too bad they didn't make better decisions the last 5-7 years.
 
Freshside3
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RE: Why Did QX Retire Their CRJ's?

Sun Nov 29, 2015 2:46 am

Quoting flyboy80 (Reply 2):
Does Horizon offer the Alaska branded service now more or less? I remember when Horizon had their own inflight magazine, beer and wine service, and snacks you wouldn't find on Alaska.

I have not been on a AS flight for a while. Did they continue having the microbrew beer, which QX started??
 
717atOGG
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RE: Why Did QX Retire Their CRJ's?

Sun Nov 29, 2015 3:19 am

Quoting Freshside3 (Reply 5):

I haven't flown AS but I know that Q400 flights still have the microbrews.
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wedgetail737
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RE: Why Did QX Retire Their CRJ's?

Sun Nov 29, 2015 4:27 am

Yes...both the Horizon Q400's and the SkyWest CRJ-700's offer microbrews and regional wines. However, the SkyWest
E-175's do not. QX still exists slightly behind the AS veil. QX also has an abbreviated version of the normal Alaska magazine.

The name has gone away a little, bit the spirit is still there.
 
Alias1024
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RE: Why Did QX Retire Their CRJ's?

Sun Nov 29, 2015 5:07 am

Quoting mwh787 (Reply 3):

These CRJ planes are now operated by OO on a capacity purchase agreement with AS. So they are still flying in AS colors


Some are still flying on the AS capacity purchase agreement. Others are operated by OO on their contract with DL. Every once in a while you will see a Delta CRJ-700 in SEA sporting a QX tail number and it's one of those birds.
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dc10lover
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RE: Why Did QX Retire Their CRJ's?

Sun Nov 29, 2015 5:15 am

"Now Horizon is trying to figure out what to do and how to lower costs"

I still think Horizon Air should have ordered the ATR 72. Serious.
Why endure the nightmare and congestion of LAX when BUR, LGB, ONT & SNA is so much easier to fly in and out of. Same with OAK & SJC when it comes to SFO.
 
chrisair
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RE: Why Did QX Retire Their CRJ's?

Sun Nov 29, 2015 10:03 am

Quoting DC10LOVER (Reply 9):
I still think Horizon Air should have ordered the ATR 72. Serious.

They should have kept the 328s...

Quoting wedgetail737 (Reply 7):

Yes...both the Horizon Q400's and the SkyWest CRJ-700's offer microbrews and regional wines. However, the SkyWest
E-175's do not.

That makes no sense to me. Is it because the planes offer F and aren't branded as an Alaska "regional" service, like the CR7s and Q400s?
 
Flaps
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RE: Why Did QX Retire Their CRJ's?

Sun Nov 29, 2015 1:34 pm

Quoting DC10LOVER (Reply 9):

I still think Horizon Air should have ordered the ATR 72. Serious.

QX flys a lot of long routes with their Q400's. The ATR72 is too slow to serve as an adequate Q400 replacement on the QX network.
 
PlanesNTrains
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RE: Why Did QX Retire Their CRJ's?

Sun Nov 29, 2015 4:45 pm

Quoting chrisair (Reply 10):
That makes no sense to me. Is it because the planes offer F and aren't branded as an Alaska "regional" service, like the CR7s and Q400s?

That would be my guess.

Quoting flyoregon (Reply 4):
If Horizon doesn't get the jets and loses half the fleet in the next few years, the Horizon Q400 will be very small with OO replacing longer routes previously operated by QX, and I could see a few things happening that aren't favorable for QX.

If they lose half their fleet, as you say, then they will be in a world of hurt. Their costs per enplanement will rise, not fall, and they might face the possibility of being sold off to one of the big regionals.

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hiflyeras
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RE: Why Did QX Retire Their CRJ's?

Sun Nov 29, 2015 4:52 pm

QX crews are being asked to swallow a very big pill...but the survival of their airline pretty much depends on it. Otherwise, QX will be relegated to flying short-hop regional flying and, as stated earlier, will shrink considerably. Feel badly for them but seems they don't have an option but to make the sacrifices to ensure their survival.
 
wedgetail737
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RE: Why Did QX Retire Their CRJ's?

Sun Nov 29, 2015 5:08 pm

The CRJ-700's are being retired again in favor of the E-175's. I'm glad because the E-175 is superior in passenger comfort
over the CRJs, in my opinion. So, when the CRJ-700's are gone...so are the SkyWest versions of the Microbrews and
regional wineries.

QX will be it.
 
Prost
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RE: Why Did QX Retire Their CRJ's?

Mon Nov 30, 2015 1:54 am

I'm surprised to read about QX having troubles. This seems to be the only weak point that I can see in Alaska's brilliant management. QX is by far the best regional carrier I've flown, and I wish them nothing but success.
 
dc10lover
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RE: Why Did QX Retire Their CRJ's?

Mon Nov 30, 2015 2:20 am

Wow! Can you imagine OO taking over all of QX routes and flying nothing but Regional Jets? This maybe where they are heading.
Why endure the nightmare and congestion of LAX when BUR, LGB, ONT & SNA is so much easier to fly in and out of. Same with OAK & SJC when it comes to SFO.
 
b747400erf
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RE: Why Did QX Retire Their CRJ's?

Mon Nov 30, 2015 5:54 am

Quoting HiFlyerAS (Reply 13):
QX crews are being asked to swallow a very big pill...but the survival of their airline pretty much depends on it. Otherwise, QX will be relegated to flying short-hop regional flying and, as stated earlier, will shrink considerably. Feel badly for them but seems they don't have an option but to make the sacrifices to ensure their survival.

what changed? They used to be thought of as the most successful regional, and a great place for a career.

And in this Alaska branding, are they still flying under a QX callsign?
 
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RWA380
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RE: Why Did QX Retire Their CRJ's?

Mon Nov 30, 2015 6:14 am

Quoting 717atOGG (Thread starter):
I know that QX had CRJ-700's from ~2001 to 2011

QX has operated the DC-9, F-28 & B11 IIRC, the latest from the Cascade hook up. I think regional jets are good for the distances we have to cover out here, crossing Oregon (E-W) can take 45 minutes, The CRJ's were great I took them lots of time to SMF & BOI, I'm no fan of the

Quoting 717atOGG (Thread starter):
Why did they retire them?

As was stated by another member is fleet commonality, the lure of one type after QX had operated lots of different types since their inception.

Quoting wedgetail737 (Reply 7):
Yes...both the Horizon Q400's and the SkyWest CRJ-700's offer microbrews and regional wines. However, the SkyWest
E-175's do not.

Curious, I guess that is the division in flying, CR7's operate the longest QX routes, while E-175's operate the thinner AS routes

Quoting chrisair (Reply 10):
They should have kept the 328s...

From your lips to Gods ears! I loved the 328's but I guess QX did not, they went fast. My only 328 ride on QX was PDX-GEG & from the moment I saw the plane until I turned around one last time, as we disembarked at Geiger Field, I enjoyed every last minute of the service & the plane ride was the quietest prop I'd ever been in, loved the 1 x 2 seating.

Quoting PlanesNTrains (Reply 12):

If they lose half their fleet, as you say, then they will be in a world of hurt. Their costs per enplanement will rise, not fall, and they might face the possibility of being sold off to one of the big regionals.

We recently have read on A.net that both Embraer & Canadair are trying to sell jets to QX, I hope that is something QX can manage to pull off. It could mean that QX could replace the OO flying & keep it all in house, that sounds like it could potentially be a win for AS, of course that comes down to who's got the better costs, QX or OO.

What I can say to AS & the board is, your brand is being tarnished by OO crews, when I fly on the CR7's I do not feel like I'm on an QS or QX operated flight, it seems less personal somehow. What keeps the AS brand alive is the better than average employees that your company retains by bonuses, a living industry wage & a decent work environment with decent benefits.

In order to continue offering a seamless product, AAG needs to bring the entire lot of their flying back under one umbrella & continue to be industry leading & green. The new planes on both sides of AAG wil be a major welcome & AAG has the cash to get the best.

Quoting HiFlyerAS (Reply 13):
QX crews are being asked to swallow a very big pill...but the survival of their airline pretty much depends on it. Otherwise, QX will be relegated to flying short-hop regional flying and, as stated earlier, will shrink considerably. Feel badly for them but seems they don't have an option but to make the sacrifices to ensure their survival.

I'm curious as to what the QX employees are facing. I had no idea QX was in any kind of rough shape, so can you elaborate on your statement please?

Quoting Prost (Reply 15):
I'm surprised to read about QX having troubles. This seems to be the only weak point that I can see in Alaska's brilliant management. QX is by far the best regional carrier I've flown, and I wish them nothing but success.

This explains my sentiments exactly. I am sure with the AAG warchest, whatever the issues are could be modified to make things run better, jets, more aircraft etc ...

Quoting DC10LOVER (Reply 16):
Wow! Can you imagine OO taking over all of QX routes and flying nothing but Regional Jets? This maybe where they are heading.


I was just thinking much the same thing, OO being the 6 largest carrier in the country by flying regional routes coast to coast. Although I always have fantasized about QX buying OO & dumping the carriers they wanted to.
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chrisair
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RE: Why Did QX Retire Their CRJ's?

Mon Nov 30, 2015 6:47 am

Quoting B747400ERF (Reply 17):
are they still flying under a QX callsign?

Yep. Still flying as Horizon. Heck, most long term employees at AS/QX still refer to it as Horizon (I know the Board Room agents all call it Horizon), and you'll hear a lot of QX employees announce flights as "Alaska flight 2XXX operated by Horizon..."

Quoting RWA380 (Reply 18):
your brand is being tarnished by OO crews

FWIW, I haven't experienced this. I'm not a frequent user of the OO RJs on the AS side, but I will say my experience with OO on DL Connection routes is nothing short of fantastic. The last time I was on an Alaska/Skywest CR7, the interior was a little rough, but otherwise the crew was working the whole flight with a smile and generally a really pleasant attitude.
 
N1120A
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RE: Why Did QX Retire Their CRJ's?

Mon Nov 30, 2015 6:52 am

Quoting flyoregon (Reply 4):
Horizon was struggling financially so in order to keep going, they entered a capacity purchase agreement with Alaska under which required Alaska branding to be shown on Horizon flights on varying levels.

What are you talking about? QX has been owned by Alaska for nearly 30 years.

Quoting DC10LOVER (Reply 9):
I still think Horizon Air should have ordered the ATR 72. Serious.

Except that the ATR would put them at a competitive disadvantage in certain markets. Remember that they run some of the longer large prop flights out there. The Q400 allows them to be competitive with fan jet speeds. The ATR would not be competitive at all.
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wedgetail737
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RE: Why Did QX Retire Their CRJ's?

Mon Nov 30, 2015 1:30 pm

Quoting RWA380 (Reply 18):
QX has operated the DC-9, F-28 & B11 IIRC, the latest from the Cascade hook up.

I thought QX flew a DC-9 back in the day, but I never saw pics of it. Same with the ex-Cascade BAC-1-11's.
 
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Polot
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RE: Why Did QX Retire Their CRJ's?

Mon Nov 30, 2015 1:51 pm

Quoting N1120A (Reply 20):
What are you talking about? QX has been owned by Alaska for nearly 30 years.

Yes, but QX was essentially run as a separate sister company to AS. QX had its own separate management in which QX themselves made decisions in regards to pricing, marketing, and routes/schedules. In 2011 that changed in which QX shifted to a full capacity purchase agreement with AS in which AS, not QX, makes the decisions in regards to pricing, marketing, and routes/schedules and where the QX brand was retired in favor of the AS brand.

Presumably this was done because the Horizon side of the Alaska Air Group was financially struggling, so the decision was made to cut costs by eliminating a public brand and superfluous airline management.
 
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Tomassjc
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RE: Why Did QX Retire Their CRJ's?

Mon Nov 30, 2015 7:19 pm

Quoting wedgetail737 (Reply 21):
I thought QX flew a DC-9 back in the day, but I never saw pics of it. Same with the ex-Cascade BAC-1-11's.

I had forgotten about the BACs! I do remember the single DC-9, used as a stop gap before the F28s came in. I recall it being all white with the Horizon meatball on the tail.

I'll never forget my first F28 takeoff, BOI-PDX, full flight, on a 100 degree day. I didn't think that bird would ever get off the ground!

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roseflyer
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RE: Why Did QX Retire Their CRJ's?

Mon Nov 30, 2015 7:53 pm

The CRJs replaced Fokker F28 jets. In 2003 when traffic was down I believe Horizon was struggling. In 2004 they contracted with Frontier to takeover their regional flying from Mesa. I think. It don't know for sure gat moving the CRJs to Frontier was the best option since there was not enough demand in the Alaska network in the post 9/11 recession. When Frontier ended the contract on 2007, I don't know why they couldn't integrate the jets back in to Horizon.
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EA CO AS
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RE: Why Did QX Retire Their CRJ's?

Mon Nov 30, 2015 10:16 pm

Quoting Polot (Reply 22):
this was done because the Horizon side of the Alaska Air Group was financially struggling, so the decision was made to cut costs by eliminating a public brand and superfluous airline management.

  

The turnaround under Glenn Johnson was pretty breathtaking; while the QX brand was "retired" and the shift to a full-CPA model went into effect, QX flourished and grew.

AAG leadership does see the need to expand the CPA flying to non-traditional QX markets however, and the E175 is the perfect vehicle for it - IF QX can get their costs down to under $300 per block hour.

Dave Campbell hopes to see a large order for E175s once that takes place.
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Comments made here are my own and are not intended to represent the official position of Alaska Air Group
 
BoeingGuy
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RE: Why Did QX Retire Their CRJ's?

Mon Nov 30, 2015 11:49 pm

Quoting chrisair (Reply 19):
Quoting RWA380 (Reply 18):
your brand is being tarnished by OO crews

FWIW, I haven't experienced this. I'm not a frequent user of the OO RJs on the AS side, but I will say my experience with OO on DL Connection routes is nothing short of fantastic. The last time I was on an Alaska/Skywest CR7, the interior was a little rough, but otherwise the crew was working the whole flight with a smile and generally a really pleasant attitude.

I strongly disagree with the original comment. I flew an AS/OO flight SEA-FAT a few years ago and it was one of the best domestic flights I've ever been on. My beer cup was never empty and the F/As were outstanding.

Quoting wedgetail737 (Reply 21):
I thought QX flew a DC-9 back in the day, but I never saw pics of it. Same with the ex-Cascade BAC-1-11's.

I didn't know QX ever flew BAC 111s. Any photos?
 
PlanesNTrains
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RE: Why Did QX Retire Their CRJ's?

Tue Dec 01, 2015 12:42 am

Quoting Tomassjc (Reply 23):
I'll never forget my first F28 takeoff

SEA was a different place back then. F27's, F28's and Metro III's. Mid-field (?) departures as well.

-Dave
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mwh787
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RE: Why Did QX Retire Their CRJ's?

Tue Dec 01, 2015 12:45 am

Quoting BoeingGuy (Reply 26):
I didn't know QX ever flew BAC 111s. Any photos?

I don't remember the BAC's either could someone have gotten them confused with the BAC's flown by Cascade Airways about the same time?

Quoting EA CO AS (Reply 25):
AAG leadership does see the need to expand the CPA flying to non-traditional QX markets however, and the E175 is the perfect vehicle for it - IF QX can get their costs down to under $300 per block hour.

Is this possible (to get block hour costs under $300) ?

I have always had a special interest in QX flying. I knew Milt Koult and even bought QX stock on the IPO back in about 1984. Still own ALK stock

Does anyone have more information about what is planned for QX? Basically they have no planes on order and many of the Q400's are starting to show some age. I could see a need for more Q400's to link more SEA, PDX, LAX, and Bay Area markets.
An order of E175's for QX flying would be fantastic I think it would keep the AAG more intact and grow the premiums of the brand
 
DiamondFlyer
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RE: Why Did QX Retire Their CRJ's?

Tue Dec 01, 2015 1:13 am

Quoting mwh787 (Reply 28):
Is this possible (to get block hour costs under $300) ?

Doubtful, unless the labor groups bend over and take it. If they're smart, they'll realize that there is no way that OO can replace all the flying they do, just because the staffing issues are going to get worse before they get better, especially at a place the size of OO.

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F9Animal
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RE: Why Did QX Retire Their CRJ's?

Tue Dec 01, 2015 1:23 am

Quoting HiFlyerAS (Reply 13):

QX crews are being asked to swallow a very big pill...but the survival of their airline pretty much depends on it. Otherwise, QX will be relegated to flying short-hop regional flying and, as stated earlier, will shrink considerably. Feel badly for them but seems they don't have an option but to make the sacrifices to ensure their survival.

What big pill? I just can't believe QX is in this situation. Can't Alaska come in and make some moves to lower the cost per hour? Is it even possible to get a Q400 under $300 per block hour? And, what is the future of the ground employees? I pray they don't outsource SEA or PDX, or any QX stations.

I just can't swallow this pill myself! I love love love QX! I hope things work out!

Quoting RWA380 (Reply 18):
From your lips to Gods ears! I loved the 328's but I guess QX did not, they went fast. My only 328 ride on QX was PDX-GEG & from the moment I saw the plane until I turned around one last time, as we disembarked at Geiger Field, I enjoyed every last minute of the service & the plane ride was the quietest prop I'd ever been in, loved the 1 x 2 seating

I am with you! The 328 was an awesome bird. However, my first flight was on an Air Wisconsin 328. It was a former QX, had the maroon leather seats, and wasn't even painted in UA colors. Flying from GJT to DEN, we lost our #1 engine shortly after takeoff. Anyways, made an emergency landing back in GJT. I am certain this was the only time I hated the 328!!! LOL! I heard QX had a heck of a time with mx issues.

Quoting N1120A (Reply 20):
What are you talking about? QX has been owned by Alaska for nearly 30 years.

I don't get it either! It's like AS is letting her sink!  
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9252fly
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RE: Why Did QX Retire Their CRJ's?

Tue Dec 01, 2015 1:40 am

Quoting B747400ERF (Reply 17):
what changed? They used to be thought of as the most successful regional, and a great place for a career.

Welcome to the world of regional carrier capacity purchase agreements. Gone are the days of having a career at a regional carrier. Your lifespan is measured by successfully underbidding the next carrier come contract renewal time.

Quoting DiamondFlyer (Reply 29):
Doubtful, unless the labor groups bend over and take it.

It's a race to the bottom,whomever bids lowest wins.
 
PlanesNTrains
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RE: Why Did QX Retire Their CRJ's?

Tue Dec 01, 2015 2:52 am

Quoting F9Animal (Reply 30):
Quoting N1120A (Reply 20):
What are you talking about? QX has been owned by Alaska for nearly 30 years.

I don't get it either! It's like AS is letting her sink!  

I think it's really the reverse. Alaska wants to see QX successful (they're part of the same company after all) but when competitors can come in with perhaps lower costs and undercut AS (Read: DL Connection) then AS needs to do what it can to make it work. It's really unfortunate because they do such a good job, but perhaps AS and QX will meet in the middle somewhere and work it out.

-Dave
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hiflyeras
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RE: Why Did QX Retire Their CRJ's?

Tue Dec 01, 2015 5:04 am

From what I've heard, no flight crew at QX are being asked to take a pay cut...it's the work rules that are under discussion. I've heard the $300 per block hour goal as well....supposedly comparable to OO and the requirement if QX is to win a E175 order.
 
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EA CO AS
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RE: Why Did QX Retire Their CRJ's?

Tue Dec 01, 2015 7:08 am

Quoting HiflyerAS (Reply 33):
From what I've heard, no flight crew at QX are being asked to take a pay cut...it's the work rules that are under discussion.

  

This. No one is being asked to take a paycut, although many on the leadership side at QX have or are in the process of being asked to take early retirement.

Quoting HiflyerAS (Reply 33):
the requirement if QX is to win a E175 order.

An order that Dave Campbell envisions being north of $1B. Lots of planes.

Quoting PlanesNTrains (Reply 32):
I think it's really the reverse. Alaska wants to see QX successful

            

This, this, a thousand times, this. AAG wanted QX to be a profit generator, and they are. Now they need to restructure to grow and help AAG as a whole grow and compete.

And they will. I have a really positive feeling about this.

Quoting F9Animal (Reply 30):
I pray they don't outsource SEA or PDX, or any QX stations.

If anything, I'd imagine a lower-cost QX could one day take over the ground handling at SEA from Menzies like they did at LAX.
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Comments made here are my own and are not intended to represent the official position of Alaska Air Group
 
PlanesNTrains
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RE: Why Did QX Retire Their CRJ's?

Tue Dec 01, 2015 8:27 am

Quoting EA CO AS (Reply 34):
This. No one is being asked to take a paycut

I have no knowledge of the internal workings at AS/QX, but I struggle to envision work rules alone getting them to a competitive position with OO, et al.

-Dave
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iceberg210
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RE: Why Did QX Retire Their CRJ's?

Tue Dec 01, 2015 2:44 pm

Quoting EA CO AS (Reply 34):
Quoting HiflyerAS (Reply 33):
the requirement if QX is to win a E175 order.

An order that Dave Campbell envisions being north of $1B. Lots of planes.

Would these end up replacing the Q400's or in addition to? As someone who rides a decent number of PNW Q400's it seems to be the perfect aircraft for a lot of these short flights, BOI-SLC SEA-BOI, BOI RNO etc etc.

I know with the E2 the E175 will be a scary efficient aircraft and with as much as Horizon and Alaska love fleet commonality I wonder if they'd do a wholesale change to the E175 which if they did might be the deathnell for the Q400.
Erik Berg
“Little by little, we advance with each turn. That's how a drill works!”
 
hiflyeras
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RE: Why Did QX Retire Their CRJ's?

Tue Dec 01, 2015 3:15 pm

I think there'll always be a place for the Q400 in some capacity at QX. But the trend is connecting hubs with mid-size cities that don't warrant frequent,year-round mainline service (i.e. SEA-OKC, PDX-STL, etc). QX can't provide that...but they can offer 12x daily SEA-GEG or 25x daily (yes, really!) SEA-PDX.
 
eugdjinn
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RE: Why Did QX Retire Their CRJ's?

Tue Dec 01, 2015 4:35 pm

Two things:

First, as I remember the move to simplify the QX fleet to a single type it was a clear business move, AAG needed only 7 or so of the CRJ700s for a very few routes that didn't work well with the Q400 and keeping the spares required for that handful of planes was inefficient. Too, with the loss of the Frontier service for the others, there was a surplus to offload and cutting a deal with SkyWest Inc. to sell/lease the unneeded aircraft and spare parts and have SkyWest Airlines operate the seven necessary birds for AAG as Alaska feeder made for a reasonable win-win. It introduced a slight problem... what livery to put them in - as they'd flown in Horizon livery and certainly couldn't do that now... and that reinforced a growing movement inside Alaska that the Whole of Alaska Air Group needed to be flying with the same face on the tail. And that led to the massive rebrand.

Second, while Horizon remains the only airline in the world to successfully wrap its operations around the Q400 and to make the substantial maintenance requirements of that aircraft look like they are not killing it, let's be honest - ONLY QX has successfully flown that aircraft in revenue service profitably in this country! And they have had to make MASSIVE adaptations to their operation to do so. (Like adding maintenance personnel to overnight stations where more than three aircraft RON all over the system.) The aircraft is inherently a hangar queen. It killed Colgan, it nearly killed Republic, and only a European carrier can afford to contemplate it. It's a nightmare aircraft from an operations standpoint. It must have an amazing amount of love from its mechanics, and they must KNOW the airplane, inside and out. Which means, ladies and gentlemen, that QX is top notch - let there be no questions about it. In point of fact, QX knows that airplane better than its manufacturer. When there is discussion about financial hardship at QX - this is where the hardship was - figuring out what it would really take to keep this fleet in the air, resource and personnel-wise, and how to go about it. The commitment had been made, it was about how to execute something that was quickly coming to bite the company (and AAG group as a whole) in the tail... and make it look like a good idea. And it was a race to do so. Kudos to all - they did it, however barely. (And yes, dropping the CR7s was a small piece of doing it, but a necessary one.)

Does it help to have a little context? The multi-million dollar question being asked in Seattle right now is this:

When AAG looks to the future of Alaska feed will they honor the sacrifices made by Horizon to keep the Q400 program that was forced on them, or are they so afraid that adding a second type to Horizon will now jeopardize Horizon's ability to maintain the Q400 going forward?
 
DiamondFlyer
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RE: Why Did QX Retire Their CRJ's?

Tue Dec 01, 2015 4:57 pm

Quoting HiflyerAS (Reply 33):
From what I've heard, no flight crew at QX are being asked to take a pay cut...it's the work rules that are under discussion. I've heard the $300 per block hour goal as well....supposedly comparable to OO and the requirement if QX is to win a E175 order.

Any sort of concessions in work rules in the current economy is a massive insult. Any organized group would be insane to even consider taking any sort of cut.

-DiamondFlyer
From my cold, dead hands
 
9252fly
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RE: Why Did QX Retire Their CRJ's?

Tue Dec 01, 2015 7:15 pm

Quoting DiamondFlyer (Reply 39):
Any sort of concessions in work rules in the current economy is a massive insult. Any organized group would be insane to even consider taking any sort of cut.

I wonder if that's the view employee's of Comair and Eagle took. We live in changing times and I do feel the the Horizon employee's.
 
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EA CO AS
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RE: Why Did QX Retire Their CRJ's?

Tue Dec 01, 2015 7:54 pm

Quoting PlanesNTrains (Reply 35):
Quoting EA CO AS (Reply 34):This. No one is being asked to take a paycut
I have no knowledge of the internal workings at AS/QX, but I struggle to envision work rules alone getting them to a competitive position with OO, et al.

The various cuts (to management) and work rules/productivity enhancements are in the process of being implemented, or asked of the frontline.

Quoting iceberg210 (Reply 36):
Would these end up replacing the Q400's or in addition to?

Yes.  

The Q400s would stay on the property, though some would be replaced by E175s, plus extra E175s for expansion into not-quite-ready-for-mainline markets.

Quoting DiamondFlyer (Reply 39):
Any sort of concessions in work rules in the current economy is a massive insult.

Not to be rude, but facing unemployment due to furloughs from reduced flying is a worse insult.

Everyone, and I mean EVERYONE at AAG wants QX to be a successful, growing part of the business, but they need to adapt to do so.

They've done a great job so far but there are obviously more hurdles ahead. I'm sure they'll overcome them.
"In this present crisis, government is not the solution to our problem - government IS the problem." - Ronald Reagan

Comments made here are my own and are not intended to represent the official position of Alaska Air Group
 
b747400erf
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RE: Why Did QX Retire Their CRJ's?

Tue Dec 01, 2015 9:34 pm

Quoting EA CO AS (Reply 41):
but they need to adapt to do so.

It's always management and shareholders telling airline employees to do this, never the other way around. Funny how that works.
 
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EA CO AS
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RE: Why Did QX Retire Their CRJ's?

Tue Dec 01, 2015 9:52 pm

Quoting B747400ERF (Reply 42):
It's always management and shareholders telling airline employees to do this, never the other way around.

There have been plenty of examples of employees doing this; PA, EA, TW, BN....   
"In this present crisis, government is not the solution to our problem - government IS the problem." - Ronald Reagan

Comments made here are my own and are not intended to represent the official position of Alaska Air Group
 
DiamondFlyer
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RE: Why Did QX Retire Their CRJ's?

Wed Dec 02, 2015 12:00 am

Quoting 9252fly (Reply 40):
I wonder if that's the view employee's of Comair and Eagle took. We live in changing times and I do feel the the Horizon employee's.
Quoting EA CO AS (Reply 41):
Not to be rude, but facing unemployment due to furloughs from reduced flying is a worse insult.

Both of these posts don't see the real problem. QX can't be replaced. There aren't enough pilots on the street for a place to be wholesale shut down like Comair was, or how Eagle was underbid, also due to a plethora of pilots on the market. OO is already struggling to staff what they have, to take over all the QX flying would just make it that much worse.

-DiamondFlyer
From my cold, dead hands
 
PlanesNTrains
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RE: Why Did QX Retire Their CRJ's?

Wed Dec 02, 2015 12:31 am

Quoting DiamondFlyer (Reply 44):
Both of these posts don't see the real problem. QX can't be replaced.

Hence the "reduced flying". AS could live with less regional feed if needed. There are plenty of QX routes/markets that are not strategic to AS's ultimate success. They have also shown over the years - like most airlines - that they can and will walk away from markets only to come back in later. Just ask SJC, PDX, LGB, etc.

Upthread it was mentioned that they have a large chunk of fleet up for lease-renewals in the next few years. Simply letting those planes return to their lessors will mean less jobs for QX. Perhaps OO replaces adds 5-8 more Ejets to the 15 that are coming and you pretty much can cover the core needs near-term. Adjust mainline capacity and throw a few -800's onto the heavier Ejet routes and allow those planes to backfill the Q's.

That's what I could see happening, anyhow. Unfortunately.

-Dave
-Dave


MAX’d out on MAX threads. If you are starting a thread, and it’s about the MAX - stop. There’s already a thread that covers it.
 
N353SK
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RE: Why Did QX Retire Their CRJ's?

Wed Dec 02, 2015 2:35 pm

Quoting 9252fly (Reply 40):
I wonder if that's the view employee's of Comair and Eagle took. We live in changing times and I do feel the the Horizon employee's.

Comair's pilots voted in favor of concessions several times and they were still shut down.
 
diverted
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RE: Why Did QX Retire Their CRJ's?

Wed Dec 02, 2015 4:58 pm

Quoting eugdjinn (Reply 38):
Second, while Horizon remains the only airline in the world to successfully wrap its operations around the Q400 and to make the substantial maintenance requirements of that aircraft look like they are not killing it, let's be honest - ONLY QX has successfully flown that aircraft in revenue service profitably in this country!

Well, I'm sure PD, QK, and WS Encore would disagree with you. They all decided to buy more after their initial orders (all of which came after the SK gear issues) and seem to be running them effectively. I'll agree with you that the airplane has it's difficulties, but they aren't insurmountable. Stay on top of things and they are relatively reliable. I know QX had 2 frames come from China that they only operated a few years before they ended up getting scrapped, (N425QX was one, i believe it ended up as Encore's cabin trainer) not sure why, but they were replaced with new builds.

I'll admit Bombardier should have brought out a fair number of PIPS and other fixes, as there are a number of known issues with the airplane(If you work at QX I'm sure you're aware of the APU issues, NVS issues, etc), but that's between the airlines and Bombardier. The majority of the tech issues I've encountered when I worked places flying the Q's were typically MEL'able. There was an issue with an oil bypass valve a few years back where it seemed Q's were suffering IFSD's regularly. AFAIK Pratt has fixed that.
 
F9Animal
Posts: 4282
Joined: Thu Dec 16, 2004 7:13 am

RE: Why Did QX Retire Their CRJ's?

Wed Dec 02, 2015 10:08 pm

Quoting EA CO AS (Reply 34):

If anything, I'd imagine a lower-cost QX could one day take over the ground handling at SEA from Menzies like they did at LAX.

Excellent thoughts. I have friends who work there, and I worry about their future with all this.

Quoting EA CO AS (Reply 34):
An order that Dave Campbell envisions being north of $1B. Lots of planes.

Really? That would be a huge order! Just curious, has QX placed any RFP's for jets to other manufactuer? I would be curious if they might shop the C-Series or even the MRJ. I think the Embraer product is proven, but maybe QX could snag a deal.
I Am A Different Animal!!
 
flyoregon
Posts: 743
Joined: Thu Jul 09, 2015 5:29 pm

RE: Why Did QX Retire Their CRJ's?

Wed Dec 02, 2015 11:13 pm

Quoting F9Animal (Reply 48):
Really? That would be a huge order! Just curious, has QX placed any RFP's for jets to other manufactuer? I would be curious if they might shop the C-Series or even the MRJ. I think the Embraer product is proven, but maybe QX could snag a deal.

Certainly they have, but Dave Campbell said in a townhall meeting that the MRJ is too far off for consideration, and I personally think the C-Series would be awesome, might be too big for QX ops? (Please correct me if mistaken). What I gather is that OO has E175 options that they have offered to QX and that they have also offered leasing 175's to QX. I obviously don't know all the details, but QX is looking for a unique way to make it happen. Many view OO as the enemy, but in the end they might be the saving grace to get jets back.

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