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BestWestern
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Air Asia Crash: Final Report Released - Part 1

Tue Dec 01, 2015 2:37 am

Malaysia press reporting that The Indonesian CAA will release the QZ8501 report today at 07:00GMT. This was the Air Asia Surabaya Singapore flight that crashed last December.

Hopefully the report is thorough.
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sierrakilo44
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Air Asia Crash: Final Report Released - Part 1

Tue Dec 01, 2015 7:37 am

http://www.theguardian.com/world/201...se-control-say-crash-investigators

Can't see a link to the actual report or any detailed analysis yet, but it looks like it was a case of the "flight crew" not being able to maintain straight and level flight once the automation partially degraded...........................

(Edit: Just to emphasise this "crew" weren't really pilots...)

[Edited 2015-11-30 23:38:34]
 
Chaostheory
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Air Asia Crash: Final Report Released - Part 1

Tue Dec 01, 2015 7:40 am

Quoting BestWestern (Thread starter):
Malaysia press reporting that The Indonesian CAA will release the QZ8501 report today at 07:00GMT. This was the Air Asia Surabaya Singapore flight that crashed last December.

Hopefully the report is thorough.

It's available on the ntsc website.

Please read it before asking q's.

http://kemhubri.dephub.go.id/knkt/ntsc_home/ntsc.htm
 
Chaostheory
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Air Asia Crash: Final Report Released - Part 1

Tue Dec 01, 2015 8:39 am

Doesn't make for a pleasant read. Got to run some errands so here is a quick summary.

Equipment failure leads to alternate law.

Pilot flying (first officer) initially corrects rudder induced left roll but also pitches up 15 degrees.

Aircraft climbs rapidly to FL380, stall warning followed by stall.

Pilot flying maintains full back stick to end of recording.

Stall upset recognised by Captain but no clear transfer of control.

Contrasting dual stick inputs for the most part.
 
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Buyantukhaa
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Air Asia Crash: Final Report Released - Part 1

Tue Dec 01, 2015 8:46 am

Main conclusions:

The Flight Data Recorder (FDR) recorded that 4 master cautions activated following the failure of the Rudder Travel Limiter which triggered Electronic Centralized Aircraft Monitoring (ECAM) message of AUTO FLT RUD TRV LIM SYS. The crew performed the ECAM procedure on the first three master caution activations. After the 4th master caution, the FDR recorded different pilot action and the parameters showed similar signature to those on 25 December 2014 when the FAC CBs were pulled on the ground. This pilot action resulted on the 5th and 6th master caution activations which correspond respectively to ECAM message of AUTO FLT FAC 1 FAULT and AUTO FLT FAC 1+2 FAULT

Following two FAC fault, the autopilot and auto-thrust disengaged and the flight control reverted to Alternate Law which means the aircraft lost several protections available in Normal Law. The aircraft entered an upset condition and the stall warning activated until the end of recording.

The investigation concluded that contributing factors to this accident were:
- The cracking of a solder joint of both channel A and B resulted in loss of electrical continuity and led to RTLU failure.
- The existing maintenance data analysis led to unresolved repetitive faults occurring with shorter intervals. The same fault occurred 4 times during the flight.
- The flight crew action to the first 3 faults in accordance with the ECAM messages. Following the fourth fault, the FDR recorded different signatures that were similar to the FAC CB‟s being reset resulting in electrical interruption to the FAC‟s.
- The electrical interruption to the FAC caused the autopilot to disengage and the flight control logic to change from Normal Law to Alternate Law, the rudder deflecting 2° to the left resulting the aircraft rolling up to 54° angle of bank.
- Subsequent flight crew action leading to inability to control the aircraft in the Alternate Law resulted in the aircraft departing from the normal flight envelope and entering prolonged stall condition that was beyond the capability of the flight crew to recover
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scbriml
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Air Asia Crash: Final Report Released - Part 1

Tue Dec 01, 2015 8:49 am

Quoting sierrakilo44 (Reply 1):
Edit: Just to emphasise this "crew" weren't really pilots...

Meaning?
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ahmetdouas
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Air Asia Crash: Final Report Released - Part 1

Tue Dec 01, 2015 8:51 am

Quoting Chaostheory (Reply 5):
Quoting coolian2 (Reply 6):

It's not ignorant. I believe that the sticks being independent of each other in the Airbus unlike the Boeing is dangerous and has contributed to AF 447 and this accident.
For AF 447 I believe it was the main cause I don't think that accident would have happened in a Boeing. Sure, Boeing may not be perfect but I really doubt this would have happened in one.
 
Chaostheory
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Air Asia Crash: Final Report Released - Part 1

Tue Dec 01, 2015 8:57 am

Quoting ahmetdouas (Reply 9):
Sure, Boeing may not be perfect but I really doubt this would have happened in one.

As we've seen with the recent MD-80 stall in Africa in addition to the 757 upsets I referred to, you can not unequivocally state that the presence of linked controls would have a bearing on the outcome.
 
sierrakilo44
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Air Asia Crash: Final Report Released - Part 1

Tue Dec 01, 2015 8:58 am

Quoting scbriml (Reply 8):
Quoting sierrakilo44 (Reply 1):
Edit: Just to emphasise this "crew" weren't really pilots...

Meaning?

A pilot would know not to pull fully back on the stick when the stall warning is sounding loudly...
 
warren84
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Air Asia Crash: Final Report Released - Part 1

Tue Dec 01, 2015 9:00 am

Quoting Chaostheory (Reply 3):
Quoting ahmetdouas (Reply 4):

Paraphrasing from the report

--There was an electrical interruption to the FAC, probably but not definitely caused by pulling of the circuit breaker (the PIC had had this problem on this specific aircraft before on a previous flight and returned to the gate where he observed a line engineer do the same thing to resolve the issue)

--Interrupting the power supply to the FAC caused the autopilot to disengage, the plane to enter alternate law and the rudder to deflect 2 degrees, resulting in an uncommanded roll to the left of 54 degrees and inadequate response by both PIC and SIC.

--The SIC's stick input was pitch up all the way down, the PIC's was mostly neutral.

--The max roll rate was 104 degrees to the left and the aircraft reached a max descent rate of 20,000 fpm

It must have been absolutely terrifying for passengers and crew.

Edit- Posted while other posters commenting, so some content duplicated



[Edited 2015-12-01 01:07:11]
8Z, AA, AF, AK, AR, AT, AY, BA, CA, CI, DA, DP, FD, FV, GB, HU, IB, LB, LP, MH, MU, PA, QF, QR, SA, SQ, TP, TU, U2, US,
 
b747400erf
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Air Asia Crash: Final Report Released - Part 1

Tue Dec 01, 2015 9:00 am

Quoting sierrakilo44 (Reply 11):

A pilot would know not to pull fully back on the stick when the stall warning is sounding loudly...

You do not know what you would do faced with an emergency situation. Often you are not thinking logically.
 
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KarelXWB
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Air Asia Crash: Final Report Released - Part 1

Tue Dec 01, 2015 9:04 am

Quoting ahmetdouas (Reply 9):
I believe that the sticks being independent of each other in the Airbus unlike the Boeing is dangerous and has contributed to AF 447 and this accident.

Colgan Air Flight 3407 has proven the opposite of your theory.
What we leave behind is not as important as how we've lived.
 
RickNRoll
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Air Asia Crash: Final Report Released - Part 1

Tue Dec 01, 2015 9:05 am

One thing that shouldn't happen on any aircraft is a continually occurring fault in a critical part of the flight system being ignored and reset using circuit breakers. I guess the Captain found out why the procedure says to reset them one after the other and not simultaneously.
 
sierrakilo44
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Air Asia Crash: Final Report Released - Part 1

Tue Dec 01, 2015 9:05 am

Quoting B747400ERF (Reply 13):
You do not know what you would do faced with an emergency situation. Often you are not thinking logically.

The solution to that is proper and thorough training. From the report it looks like Air Asia was deliberately not performing some aspects of stall and upset recovery training.
 
ahmetdouas
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Air Asia Crash: Final Report Released - Part 1

Tue Dec 01, 2015 9:09 am

Quoting Chaostheory (Reply 10):

You are talking about 30 year old planes that are not even in production!
 
RickNRoll
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Air Asia Crash: Final Report Released - Part 1

Tue Dec 01, 2015 9:10 am

Quoting B747400ERF (Reply 13):
You do not know what you would do faced with an emergency situation. Often you are not thinking logically.

If you can't handle the auto-pilot dropping out you shouldn't be flying. As has been pointed out already, training will usually take care of that.
 
b747400erf
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Air Asia Crash: Final Report Released - Part 1

Tue Dec 01, 2015 9:11 am

Quoting sierrakilo44 (Reply 17):

The solution to that is proper and thorough training. From the report it looks like Air Asia was deliberately not performing some aspects of stall and upset recovery training.

All the training in the world does not prepare you for the event in real time, fatigue, and any other numerous factors that contribute to tragic accidents.
 
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KarelXWB
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Air Asia Crash: Final Report Released - Part 1

Tue Dec 01, 2015 9:14 am

Then we also have this:

Quoting Buyantukhaa (Reply 7):
stall condition that was beyond the capability of the flight crew to recover

Lack of proper stall training?
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Chaostheory
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Air Asia Crash: Final Report Released - Part 1

Tue Dec 01, 2015 9:18 am

Quoting ahmetdouas (Reply 18):
You are talking about 30 year old planes that are not even in production!

Not relevant.

Similar control architectures to the MD-80 and 757 are still fitted to 737s, 747s and 767s coming off the lines today.
 
mmo
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Air Asia Crash: Final Report Released - Part 1

Tue Dec 01, 2015 9:21 am

Quoting sierrakilo44 (Reply 17):

The solution to that is proper and thorough training. From the report it looks like Air Asia was deliberately not performing some aspects of stall and upset recovery training.

The root cause of this accident was lack of training on the part of both pilots. From the lack of recognition of a stall and failure to apply the correct recovery to the constant non-SOP callouts. We have the FO who starts to speak french during the accident, the Captain giving commands like "pull down".

From my 43 years of military and commercial flying there has been, in the last 15 years, a dramatic declining in basic airmanship among all pilots. This crew couldn't realize the aircraft had gotten into a full aft stick stall. And it had no clue on how to get out of it. It appears to me, this accident provided more justification, crews are relying more and more on automation. The current generation of aircraft are more reliable than the previous generation, so major system failures are few and far between. This is a big factor. Also, there has been a reduction in the training footprint pilots get. Not only in initial training but in recurrent training and LPC/OPC. The regulatory agencies have loaded more and more "mandatory" tasks in those events it is now a matter of just trying to accomplish those tasks.

I think the entire training and checking philosophy needs to be revisited to see what can be done to provide "real" training.
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Chaostheory
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Air Asia Crash: Final Report Released - Part 1

Tue Dec 01, 2015 9:30 am

Quoting MMO (Reply 23):
This crew couldn't realize the aircraft had gotten into a full aft stick stall. And it had no clue on how to get out of it. It appears to me, this accident provided more justification, crews are relying more and more on automation. The current generation of aircraft are more reliable than the previous generation, so major system failures are few and far between. This is a big factor. Also, there has been a reduction in the training footprint pilots get. Not only in initial training but in recurrent training and LPC/OPC. The regulatory agencies have loaded more and more "mandatory" tasks in those events it is now a matter of just trying to accomplish those tasks.

You're on the money.

As I hinted at in the Jetblue's proposed cadet scheme thread, the training in much of the world is far too scripted and lacks 'rigour and variety' as I put it. It's why, despite the ridiculous amount of flying they do, the US carriers remain the safest. Their pilot training departments get it.

It's important to note too that this isn't a specific manufacturer issue, but one that is industry wide.
 
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hilram
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Air Asia Crash: Final Report Released - Part 1

Tue Dec 01, 2015 9:32 am

Quoting MMO (Reply 23):

Instead, pilots are being outsourced and have their health care benefits taken away. Some are contracted under a self-employment scheme, where absence due to sickness (or fatigue) means losing money or even your job.

This can not all be blamed on the traveling public scrambling to save $50 on their flight. This is also due to a lack of regulations and "minimal standards" for the airlines to be accountable for the pilots flying their planes.

An airline should be forced to give real employment status to the pilots flying, and make sure they are properly trained, rested and monitored health-wise.

If a lack of training indeed is the cause of this accindent (possibly coupled with some shortcuts in maintenance) I hope for a gigantic class-action lawsuit against the airline, that burns them so hard that going forward they will see to that their pilots get proper training.
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airtechy
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Air Asia Crash: Final Report Released - Part 1

Tue Dec 01, 2015 9:54 am

"The Upset Recovery training was included in the aircraft operators training manual.he aircraft operator advised the KNKT that the flight crew had not been trained for the upset recovery training on Airbus A320, and this referred to FCTM Operational Philosophy: “The effectiveness of fly-by-wire architecture, and the existence of control laws, eliminates the need for upset recovery maneuvers to be trained on protected Airbus”.

There was no evidence of DGCA findings for this incompliance of training"

This has to be the most ridiculous....and wrong...things I have ever read in a factual report. How to sell airplanes based in part on a "fail safe" flight control system which works great .... until it doesn't and humans have to actually fly the plane.

And...as usual...the usual Airbus defenders are out proclaiming how great the Airbus control system is. Last I checked, the "sidesticks" ....and their role in the accident .. are part of that control system. How many more accidents will we need to have with a major part of the report explaining how the "sidesticks" work? In an emergency with all the urgency to make the right decision in a very short time, I'm convinced they don't work in the pilots favor.

Over the years I have enjoyed reading accident reports, mainly for the investigative and technical aspects. Here lately the only ones I have been able to read are about Airbus accidents.
 
b747400erf
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Air Asia Crash: Final Report Released - Part 1

Tue Dec 01, 2015 9:57 am

Quoting RickNRoll (Reply 19):

If you can't handle the auto-pilot dropping out you shouldn't be flying. As has been pointed out already, training will usually take care of that.

Not handling? I said sometimes experienced pilots will make the wrong decisions during an emergency situation, no matter how much total time and training they have.
 
Amiga500
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Air Asia Crash: Final Report Released - Part 1

Tue Dec 01, 2015 9:57 am

Sorry stop. Please quit with the "training" excuses.

If your a professional pilot how in the name of f__k do you not know how to recognise a stall and realise what to do to recover? Surely these people have at least a fundamental interest in flying itself and are expected to have a grasp on the rudimentary aspects of flying?


Its not as if they've lost control authority - same on AF447. Completely and totally the pilots' fault for losing the aircraft and not knowing the most basic aspects of their job.


Ineptitude... utter ineptitude. If you've 30,000 ft under the nose, put the damn thing into a 3-5 deg glide until you have a handle on the problem.
 
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Buyantukhaa
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Air Asia Crash: Final Report Released - Part 1

Tue Dec 01, 2015 10:01 am

So basically, if the PIC would have said "My control", and if the SIC would have obeyed and stayed away from the controls, they would likely have made it...

Still, pulling CBs in flight wasn't by the book either. The soldering crack was faulty maintenance, but most of the accident was pilot training and CRM...
I scratch my head, therefore I am.
 
Chaostheory
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Air Asia Crash: Final Report Released - Part 1

Tue Dec 01, 2015 10:05 am

Quoting Amiga500 (Reply 28):
Ineptitude... utter ineptitude. If you've 30,000 ft under the nose, put the damn thing into a 3-5 deg glide until you have a handle on the problem.

How do you put an aircraft that is stalled with a developed bank in a glide?

Furthermore, how much q is there at 30 000 ft to assist recovery?

I once heard Terry Lutz opine that he didn't think AF447 could have been recovered until reaching 25 000ft.

[Edited 2015-12-01 02:06:40]
 
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enzo011
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Air Asia Crash: Final Report Released - Part 1

Tue Dec 01, 2015 10:12 am

This thread could be part of the a-net truths thread. We already had the Airbus side-sticks blamed, and the FBW of the A320.

The captain saw an engineer perform a task on the ground to get rid of the same problem on the same aircraft a few days before. He tried it in the air, not realizing what would happen if it was done in flight. This caused the aircraft to lose its protections and caught the PF unawares. His actions then resulted in the crash.

Does this summarize it, or am I way off base?
 
airtechy
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Air Asia Crash: Final Report Released - Part 1

Tue Dec 01, 2015 10:16 am

Quoting Chaostheory (Reply 30):
How do you put an aircraft that is stalled with a developed bank in a glide?

Actually, a steep bank should have hastened the entry into a nose down attitude...if there was no up pilot command.

Quoting Chaostheory (Reply 30):
I once heard Terry Lutz opine that he didn't think AF447 could have been recovered until reaching 25 000ft.

One could say that 25,000 ft is a lot better than 0 feet.
 
b747400erf
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Air Asia Crash: Final Report Released - Part 1

Tue Dec 01, 2015 10:23 am

Quoting Amiga500 (Reply 28):
Ineptitude... utter ineptitude.

If you are not a pilot perhaps you shouldn't judge the actions of a pilot under such situations. Plenty of experienced pilots have made simple mistakes that cost them their lives in the course of aviation history.
 
Amiga500
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Air Asia Crash: Final Report Released - Part 1

Tue Dec 01, 2015 10:30 am

Quoting Chaostheory (Reply 30):
How do you put an aircraft that is stalled with a developed bank in a glide?

Kick the rudder to pull the nose into the bank.

Quoting B747400ERF (Reply 33):
If you are not a pilot perhaps you shouldn't judge the actions of a pilot under such situations.

Excuses excuses.


Maybe all airliner pilots should be expected to put in 2-3 hrs/month on Lock-on or something else that forces "real" stick time. Since right now far too many appear to be autopilot facilitators incapable of flying a plane.
 
b747400erf
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Air Asia Crash: Final Report Released - Part 1

Tue Dec 01, 2015 10:31 am

Quoting Amiga500 (Reply 34):

Excuses excuses.


Maybe all airliner pilots should be expected to put in 2-3 hrs/month on Lock-on or something else that forces "real" stick time. Since right now far too many appear to be autopilot facilitators incapable of flying a plane.

Again, you are not a pilot, and you are talking about something you do not understand. Accidents are more rare today than during previous generations. Stop judging a profession you know nothing about.
 
Chaostheory
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Air Asia Crash: Final Report Released - Part 1

Tue Dec 01, 2015 10:39 am

Quoting airtechy (Reply 32):
One could say that 25,000 ft is a lot better than 0 feet.

Recovery couldn't have been started effectively until 25 000 due to a lack of q is what I was getting at.

In such a stalled stated with high alpha, it would take at least another 10 000-20 000 ft to recover.

Then you've got to consider overspeed condition or exceeding g limits during recovery.

The stalls facing these crews are a world away from the relatively controlled stalled testing carried out by Airbus and Boeing at 8 000-15 000ft block altitudes.

Quoting Amiga500 (Reply 34):
Kick the rudder to pull the nose into the bank.

Don't touch the rudder in a stall!

[Edited 2015-12-01 02:40:07]
 
Amiga500
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Air Asia Crash: Final Report Released - Part 1

Tue Dec 01, 2015 11:01 am

Quoting B747400ERF (Reply 35):
Accidents are more rare today than during previous generations.

Indeed - because us engineers have practically got to make the thing fly itself.
 
na
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Air Asia Crash: Final Report Released - Part 1

Tue Dec 01, 2015 11:01 am

Aren´t there increasingly more crashes happening due to pilots being unable to read the instruments correctly and react properly after the autopilot or some part of the computer-based steering system failed? Why did the pilots let the plane climb so much for quite some time until it stalled? They must have ignored the altimeter and artificial horizon. Why? In this case both pilots seem to have lost all senses. They were in a cramp. If so, they were not fit to be pilots. Not at all were they fit if they couldn´t address a basic problem of flying. Bad also for the Air Asia that a technical failure (cracked joint) which resulted in 24 (!) misfunctions on this plane was not repaired.
 
Amiga500
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Air Asia Crash: Final Report Released - Part 1

Tue Dec 01, 2015 11:04 am

Quoting Chaostheory (Reply 36):
Don't touch the rudder in a stall!

Did training tell you that?


If your aircraft its in a deteriorating bank, the plane will have developed lateral motion - which means your rudder may be your most effective means of control. Turn the nose into the bank to raise speed over all control surfaces. You'll lose several thousand feet probably, but regain control.
 
Chaostheory
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Air Asia Crash: Final Report Released - Part 1

Tue Dec 01, 2015 11:10 am

Quoting Amiga500 (Reply 39):
Did training tell you that?

Yes.

That would include Airbus and Boeing training.

I wouldn't touch the rudder unless nothing else worked. What may work for GA aircraft doesn't necessarily hold true for jets.

Take a look at the most up to date advice provided by the FAA link courtesy of BravoOne in techops:

http://www.faa.gov/documentLibrary/m.../Advisory_Circular/AC_120-109A.pdf
 
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Vio
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Air Asia Crash: Final Report Released - Part 1

Tue Dec 01, 2015 11:23 am

Quoting Amiga500 (Reply 34):
Maybe all airliner pilots should be expected to put in 2-3 hrs/month on Lock-on or something else that forces "real" stick time. Since right now far too many appear to be autopilot facilitators incapable of flying a plane.
Quoting B747400ERF (Reply 35):
Again, you are not a pilot, and you are talking about something you do not understand. Accidents are more rare today than during previous generations. Stop judging a profession you know nothing about.

Not to inflame the conversation, but I tend to agree a bit with Amiga500 in some respect. The reliance on automation is the new norm in aviation, and rightfully so. An autopilot can fly an aircraft better than any pilot can. With that being said, the pilot does play a very important role, even when the autopilot is utilized. I can't say I have much flying experience, about 2000 hrs TT. I have flown turbine and jet aircraft and the majority of my turbine flying was "by hand". Some of our B200 aircraft did not have auto-pilot and we flew everything from take-off to cruise to landing manually. True, there were two of us and we switched on those 3+ hour long legs. Once I transitioned to flying a jet, I quickly realized that they are not really meant to be flown by hand. With that being said, we did fly it quite a in that matter to keep our skills sharp.

Automation is wonderful and by far the safest method, however hands and feet need to be kept at a decent standard so one can identify and correct anomalies in a timely manner.

[Edited 2015-12-01 03:40:16]
Superior decisions reduce the need for superior skills.
 
Amiga500
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Air Asia Crash: Final Report Released - Part 1

Tue Dec 01, 2015 11:29 am

Quoting Chaostheory (Reply 40):
Take a look at the most up to date advice provided by the FAA link courtesy of BravoOne in techops:

http://www.faa.gov/documentLibrary/m...A.pdf

Its somewhat concerning that you cannot differentiate between that document and an aircraft that has already stalled, entered a steep bank and will be slipping off. Which only reinforces my notion of training being rigid, inflexible and often inappropriate to deal with what pilots experience in emergencies - a checklist rather than real understanding of how the aircraft behaves.



To tidy up loose ends; on the front sheet it says:
Reducing angle of attack (AOA) is the most important pilot action in recovering from an impending or full stall.

While on in, commenting on common pilot errors within the scenarios, it mentions rudder only to say:
"Inappropriate use of rudder."

It is not inappropriate to use the rudder if it performs the most important action of all - reducing your AoA.



A better form of training would be to set two pilots against each other in the sims in dogfights*. Completely and utterly unrealistic as far as occurring in the real-world - but the pilots will have to explore the envelope of their aircraft and will deal with loss of control and recovery events numerous times. Which will stand to them when they would approach those envelope limits in real-life. Tacit understanding of the aircraft rather than reading bullet points off a bloody list.



*and yes, I do mean in their A320s and B737s Big grin

[Edited 2015-12-01 03:30:45]
 
kurtverbose
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Air Asia Crash: Final Report Released - Part 1

Tue Dec 01, 2015 11:29 am

I'm not a pilot, and I'm not judging, but why have there been so many crashes caused by a stall where the pilot is still resolutely pulling the stick back in the face of all warnings that it is completely the wrong thing to do?

I just do not understand.
 
Chaostheory
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Air Asia Crash: Final Report Released - Part 1

Tue Dec 01, 2015 11:39 am

Quoting Amiga500 (Reply 42):
It is not inappropriate to use the rudder if it performs the most important action of all - reducing your AoA.

I agree.

But it's not the first tool I would use.

I'm not current on the A320 but going off memory for stall recovery, it emphasised nose down followed by wings level. Adjust thrust if needed. No mention of the rudder.

The BAE, Dassault, Airbus and Boeing test pilots I have spoken to in the past have all managed to recover from upsets without its use.

I'm not a test pilot, so I'll take their word for it.

[Edited 2015-12-01 03:40:11]
 
WIederling
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Air Asia Crash: Final Report Released - Part 1

Tue Dec 01, 2015 11:39 am

I can't fathom your intellectual leap going from

"mandatory training omitted via nefarious reasoning chain."

to:

Quoting airtechy (Reply 26):
And...as usual...the usual Airbus defenders are out proclaiming how great the Airbus control system is. Last I ...

We see the same "think" with US novice driver kids getting (mandatory?) advice to use
their cars cruise control at all times.
Murphy is an optimist
 
Amiga500
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Air Asia Crash: Final Report Released - Part 1

Tue Dec 01, 2015 11:49 am

Quoting Chaostheory (Reply 44):
But it's not the first tool I would use.

In this instance (bank angle of 54deg or so apparently!), I'd go to rudder before risking control reversal from aileron.

But each to their own.

edit: I think its safe to say that neither of us would have allowed the bank angle to develop, but for the purposes of this I'm taking it as the moment I get control (as original question posed was using that as a starting point).



Still think my dogfight training is the way forward (and pilots might actually enjoy it rather than the current sterile crap).  

[Edited 2015-12-01 03:50:37]
 
lutfi
Posts: 888
Joined: Wed Sep 27, 2000 6:33 pm

Air Asia Crash: Final Report Released - Part 1

Tue Dec 01, 2015 11:54 am

"The plane's flight control computer had a cracked solder joint that malfunctioned repeatedly, including four times during the flight, and 23 times the previous year"

Hmm. Sounds like they were doing the equivalent of ctrl alt del (pulling the CBs) to reset, rather than fixing the damn part...
 
na
Posts: 9770
Joined: Sun Dec 12, 1999 3:52 am

Air Asia Crash: Final Report Released - Part 1

Tue Dec 01, 2015 11:58 am

Quoting kurtverbose (Reply 40):
I'm not a pilot, and I'm not judging, but why have there been so many crashes caused by a stall where the pilot is still resolutely pulling the stick back in the face of all warnings that it is completely the wrong thing to do?

I just do not understand.

A cramp. First of the brain, then of the arm(s). Utter desperation shutting off the brain apparently, I cant see another explanation for this repeated behavior, even if a look on the instruments is telling the pilots that they are wrong.
 
diverted
Posts: 1293
Joined: Sat May 17, 2014 3:17 pm

Air Asia Crash: Final Report Released - Part 1

Tue Dec 01, 2015 12:10 pm

Quoting B747400ERF (Reply 29):
If you are not a pilot perhaps you shouldn't judge the actions of a pilot under such situations. Plenty of experienced pilots have made simple mistakes that cost them their lives in the course of aviation history.

Sorry- but this is a big mistake and should never happen. I'm not a pilot, but put the nose down. Simple. Regain airspeed, and not crash the airplane. Aviate, Navigate, Communicate. NONE of those things happened in this situation. Are they the first crew to do this? No, Colgan and Air France come to mind right off the get go. However, that doesn't excuse this crews actions, or inactions. The plane should have never even gotten to a situation where it stalled. The fact that it did shows a lot about the crews skillset.

People will argue (and already are) the Airbus FBW logic is faulty, Boeing's better, this that or the other thing, but at the end of the day, it's irrelevant, and the crew failed to fly the plane. Colgan 3407 proved that sidestick vs yoke, if you don't have a competent crew, it doesn't matter. And as a result, a bunch of people are dead.

Stall recovery is something learned, and practiced VERY early on in one's flight training. There is NO EXCUSE to stall an airplane at cruise into the ocean
 
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777Jet
Posts: 6987
Joined: Sat Mar 08, 2014 7:29 am

Air Asia Crash: Final Report Released - Part 1

Tue Dec 01, 2015 12:32 pm

Quoting Chaostheory (Reply 3):
 
Doesn't make for a pleasant read. Got to run some errands so here is a quick summary.

Equipment failure leads to alternate law. 

Pilot flying (first officer) initially corrects rudder induced left roll but also pitches up 15 degrees.

Aircraft climbs rapidly to FL380, stall warning followed by stall. 

Pilot flying maintains full back stick to end of recording.

Stall upset recognised by Captain but no clear transfer of control.

Contrasting dual stick inputs for the most part. 

Whilst I don't have time right now to read the full report, if the above summary is correct, then it sounds like AF447 style attempted flying in a faulty plane... I don't think I'll be flying this airline in the future.
DC10-10/30,MD82/88/90, 717,727,732/3/4/5/7/8/9ER,742/4,752/3,763/ER,772/E/L/3/W,788/9, 306,320,321,332/3,346,359,388
 
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scbriml
Posts: 19173
Joined: Wed Jul 02, 2003 10:37 pm

Air Asia Crash: Final Report Released - Part 1

Tue Dec 01, 2015 12:37 pm

Quoting airtechy (Reply 22):
Here lately the only ones I have been able to read are about Airbus accidents.

I'd suggest you're not looking hard enough, or only seeing what you want to see.
Time flies like an arrow. Fruit flies like a banana!
There are 10 types of people in the World - those that understand binary and those that don't.
 
76er
Posts: 694
Joined: Mon Mar 12, 2007 8:04 pm

Air Asia Crash: Final Report Released - Part 1

Tue Dec 01, 2015 12:57 pm

For the Airbus bashers, let's not forget the TK crash at AMS (A/T system failure induced crew error) and OZ at SFO (who fell into the infamous Flight Level Change trap). The latest being a design flaw imho.

And that coming from a 20+ year Boeing pilot.
 
CBRboy
Posts: 180
Joined: Mon Apr 30, 2007 2:03 pm

Air Asia Crash: Final Report Released - Part 1

Tue Dec 01, 2015 12:58 pm

Quoting 777Jet (Reply 46):
I don't think I'll be flying this airline in the future.

I reached the same conclusion.

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