New WSJ article about a new effort by regional airlines to address pilot recruitment.

"Regional Airlines Seek Reduced Minimum Pilot-Experience Mandate"

http://www.wsj.com/articles/regional...ilot-experience-mandate-1449005336

"...The initiative lays out a potential alternate path to the cockpit for starting pilots that includes time sitting in airliner jump seats as observers, more-frequent proficiency checks by carriers, beefed-up stall-recovery training and a year or more of formal mentoring by senior pilots..."

Also: "“I don’t think I have a single carrier that has not been impacted” by dwindling pilot availability, said association head Faye Malarkey Black, whose group represents some two dozen regional carriers across North America..."

Quoting VS11 (Thread starter): Regional Airlines Seek Reduced Minimum Pilot-Experience Mandate

...because the Colgan crash didn't teach them a thing.  

Quoting LAX772LR (Reply 1): ...because the Colgan crash didn't teach them a thing.

Part of the initiative is beefed-up stall recovery training.

From the article: "...The ACE package also includes more training emphasis on hot-button safety topics such as improving manual flying skills, responding to high-altitude stalls, recovering from extreme upsets and better understanding aerodynamic and human factors principles...."

Quoting LAX772LR (Reply 1):

Didn't both Colgan pilots have enough hours to qualify even with the new requirements?

Quoting LAX772LR (Reply 1): ...because the Colgan crash didn't teach them a thing.

Quoting luv2cattlecall (Reply 3): Didn't both Colgan pilots have enough hours to qualify even with the new requirements?

Both the pilots had way over the current minimum requirements, proving that it's not the quantity of hours that matter, it's the quality.

Quoting luv2cattlecall (Reply 3): Didn't both Colgan pilots have enough hours to qualify even with the new requirements?

Rebecca Shaw at the time she was hired did not have enough hours to meet the new requirements. That being said I am sure Captain Marvin Reslow did.

Quoting apodino (Reply 5): That being said I am sure Captain Marvin Reslow did.

Only because he flew for a previous 121 carrier where you paid to be the FO.

-DiamondFlyer

Quoting KaiGywer (Reply 4): Both the pilots had way over the current minimum requirements, proving that it's not the quantity of hours that matter, it's the quality.

IMPE, I've never seen quality come from reducing experience & adding quantity to any job. I would imagine it'll be just enough time until the first accident happens because two junior cockpit crew members are paired & something goes wrong.

Maybe airlines need to start changing the way pilots are recruited, compensated & make it attractive for upcoming youth to want to take up aviation as a career instead of it being an insulting wage for years, before you have a chance of making even a living wage. Yes Wall Street dive into those record airline profits & make sure the people doing the jobs are quality & not quantity.

The 1500 rule was a knee jerk reaction to a captain making a really bad decision. We have seen it happen twice more in AF 447 and now the Air Asia crash. The issue was training, not hours.

LH, QF, BA, CX, some of the safest airlines in the world don't require the hours the FAA does, they do just fine. The hour requirement is hurting the airlines. As long as training is stepped up I see no issues.

Quoting VS11 (Thread starter): "...The initiative lays out a potential alternate path to the cockpit for starting pilots that includes time sitting in airliner jump seats as observers, more-frequent proficiency checks by carriers, beefed-up stall-recovery training and a year or more of formal mentoring by senior pilots..."

Well, that's too late. If they want to start using less experienced people, changes have to be made at the primary training level. Waiting until they've got paying passengers onboard to introduce all that stuff is not a good solution, and it stinks of "let's find the low-cost option to make it look like we're training better". It's low-cost for a reason. You get what you pay for.

Quoting VS11 (Thread starter): Also: "“I don’t think I have a single carrier that has not been impacted” by dwindling pilot availability, said association head Faye Malarkey Black, whose group represents some two dozen regional carriers across North America..."

Dwindling pilot availability, or dwindling pilot interest? I don't think we should be surprised by anyone who wanted to become a pilot, but then looked at the pilot job market post-2007 and decided to do other things. And the RAA and the mainline carriers who contracted with them share in the blame for that.

-Mir

Quoting flymia (Reply 8):

THIS!!!!

Excellent recap, totally agree you you.

+1

Quoting LAX772LR (Reply 1): ...because the Colgan crash didn't teach them a thing.

It didn't teach you a thing obviously.

Quoting apodino (Reply 5): Rebecca Shaw at the time she was hired did not have enough hours to meet the new requirements. That being said I am sure Captain Marvin Reslow did.

Actually she did work as a flying instructor in Arizona prior to Colgan. On the CVR she mentioned how inexperienced with icy conditions she was. I take it those 1500hrs watching a student do circuits in a Cessna 172 in the Arizona CAVOK sunshine didn't help on the accident day.

Give me a European style cadet pilot who has been properly trained to fly a large turboprop/jet in cold weather ops in a multi crew environment anyday. As well as no $18k per year salaries, no all night commuting across the country because you can't afford to live in your base, no sleeping in the pilot's lounge because you can't afford a hotel room, no sneezing on the CVR because you're afraid to call in sick, no working a second job to make ends meet.....

(No offence directed at the pilots of the flight, all my anger directed to the carriers for creating an unsafe environment)

[Edited 2015-12-01 21:41:24]

Quoting flymia (Reply 8): The 1500 rule was a knee jerk reaction to a captain making a really bad decision. We have seen it happen twice more in AF 447 and now the Air Asia crash. The issue was training, not hours. LH, QF, BA, CX, some of the safest airlines in the world don't require the hours the FAA does, they do just fine. The hour requirement is hurting the airlines. As long as training is stepped up I see no issues.

To be fair the FO yanked the flaps up which didn't help.

I think the current system provides a superior pilot. I've flown in Europe and the US and there is a huge amount of leeway the pilot is given. More experience is a good thing.

Quoting sierrakilo44 (Reply 12): Give me a European style cadet pilot who has been properly trained to fly a large turboprop/jet in cold weather ops in a multi crew environment anyday. As well as no $18k per year salaries, no all night commuting across the country because you can't afford to live in your base, no sleeping in the pilot's lounge because you can't afford a hotel room, no sneezing on the CVR because you're afraid to call in sick, no working a second job to make ends meet..... (No offence directed at the pilots of the flight, all my anger directed to the carriers for creating an unsafe environment

Never going to happen. They want it reduced so they can continue to pay poverty level wages to new FOs. Flight instructing is some of the best experience you can get period.

Quoting flymia (Reply 8): As long as training is stepped up I see no issues.

In the meantime, the 1500 hour rule provides a great baseline to ensure the 500TT-in-the-right-seat-of-a-jet stuff of 2007 does not occur again with our current training setup.

It's not safe with the amount of new hire training that is provided at the fee-for-departure airlines. 6 FTDs and 8 full-motion sims cannot be compared to the European style training regime.

wow, pilot shortage? where.... I think its more of a QOL issue than anything. A carrier I know of has NO problem hiring pilots, they have over 700 resumes on file right now. They have normal attrition like everyone, but they are in no way short.

Its just that some of the regionals pay sh*t, treat their pilots like sh*t, have sh*tty management... its simple.. garbage in, garbage out.

Quoting usxguy (Reply 15): wow, pilot shortage? where.... I think its more of a QOL issue than anything. A carrier I know of has NO problem hiring pilots, they have over 700 resumes on file right now. They have normal attrition like everyone, but they are in no way short. Its just that some of the regionals pay sh*t, treat their pilots like sh*t, have sh*tty management... its simple.. garbage in, garbage out.

I'd like to believe that, but there most certainly is a shortage. Look at the amount of ATPs, CMELS, and such that have been created in recent years. That said, if compensation did rise there would be more people to enter the pipeline. The problem is that for so many years so few entered this field that even if compensation rose tremendously overnight there would still be a multi year lag until pilots could get the hours required. The short term solution is less regional flights, but even that is a bandaid. The US aviation market will likely have to go to an Ab-initio or multi pilot license scheme eventually. As an aside, i wasn't hired at a regional until around ~2000 hrs, at a major ~5000... I'm all for having as much experience as possible. As I sit I have ~12,000 hours and still can learn a thing or 2 i'm sure.

Quoting VS11 (Thread starter): "“I don’t think I have a single carrier that has not been impacted” by dwindling pilot availability, said association head Faye Malarkey Black, whose group represents some two dozen regional carriers across North America..."

Which is a spin doctor's way of saying they'd rather keep paying abysmally low salaries for low time pilots desperate for a job than proper living wages for more experienced ones.

I personally think a better trained pilot with less hours is better than a pilot with less training but more hours. European experience shows that ab-initio training works and offers a good solution, especially as the fresh FOs are paired with more experienced captains. Collecting hours flying as a PPL instructor or towing gliders in a sunny place is not going to help when you are flying an airliner in crappy weather, a few more sim hours spent on such situations might help though. Especially as the typical ways to gain hours are hardly helping to improve the CRM skills of the future FOs.

Quoting seahawk (Reply 18): I personally think a better trained pilot with less hours is better than a pilot with less training but more hours. European experience shows that ab-initio training works and offers a good solution, especially as the fresh FOs are paired with more experienced captains. Collecting hours flying as a PPL instructor or towing gliders in a sunny place is not going to help when you are flying an airliner in crappy weather, a few more sim hours spent on such situations might help though. Especially as the typical ways to gain hours are hardly helping to improve the CRM skills of the future FOs.

What you learn a lot more from towing gliders and especially teaching new students is decision making. As a pilot that has gone through the process and then flown with lower time FOs, while both can fly the airplane which isn't all that hard, the higher time pilot usually has scared themselves enough and seen enough to make better decisions then the lower time guy. The lower time pilot is great at rote knowledge, but introduce a situation that doesn't necessarily exist in an obscure flow chart in the QRH and they are more lost. Just my observation.

Ab initio training is a terrible idea, as it basically ends up with a form of indentured servitude. Any sort of long term training contract is going to be tough to enforce in the US, which makes the whole thing a non-starter, because no airline is going to do the training unless it makes financial sense.

Quoting goboeing (Reply 14): 6 FTDs and 8 full-motion sims cannot be compared to the European style training regime.

Really? You think that's not enough? I did 6 sims, a PC and a LOFT and went to the line for IOE on the DC9. If you don't have it down that quick, you aren't probably cut out for 121 flying.

-DiamondFlyer

Quoting LAX772LR (Reply 1): ...because the Colgan crash didn't teach them a thing.

The captain should have never been flying that plane. He had a proven record of being an inept aviator.

Quoting DiamondFlyer (Reply 6): Only because he flew for a previous 121 carrier where you paid to be the FO.

He still had 3,379 hours. More than enough time to develop his skills as a captain and as an aviator. Same with the first office who had 2,244 hours of flight time. This accident had nothing to do with a magical 1,500 hour rule, it had to do with training failures on the carriers part, and poor decision making on the captains part.

Quoting usxguy (Reply 15): wow, pilot shortage? where.... I think its more of a QOL issue than anything. A carrier I know of has NO problem hiring pilots, they have over 700 resumes on file right now. They have normal attrition like everyone, but they are in no way short. Its just that some of the regionals pay sh*t, treat their pilots like sh*t, have sh*tty management... its simple.. garbage in, garbage out.

There is a massive pilot shortage. Why do you think the regional airlines are paying cash bonuses in excess of $10,000 if you stay for a year? It all boils down to the fact that flying for a regional is a shit job. I hold a CSEL, CMEL, CFI, CFII, MEI, AGI and a Gold Seal. I would rather flight instruct on the side and work a real job making six figures than go make $25,000 my first year at PSA, and struggle to survive. I have been lucky. I paid for my private and instrument in cash. I went to ATP for my CSEL, CMEL, & CFI ratings. That was $29,000 in 2012, of which I now owe $8,500. Others that I went to ATP with took out $75,000 loans, and now have student loan payments of $800 a month. Now look at kids who go to WMU, Purdue, or Riddle. They are in the hole for $150,000 or more, and now they have to instruct for three years to get the rest of their time. At some point, you have to ask if it is worth it.

Bottom line, the 1,500 hour rule was a way to appease the families of crash victims. Rewind to 2006 when the regionals were so desperate for people, that they took them as soon as they hit 250 hours and passed their commercial multi rides. I have a friend who was hired at Trans States with the condition that he would start class on a Monday as long as he passed his CMEL checkride two days before.

Europe/Asia have the training method done right, and we need to emulate it and move forward. I can tell you for a fact that as an instructor, I am not becoming a better aviator by doing power on and power off stalls day after day after day. I log my PIC while instructing, keep my day/night currency, and continue to watch my hours grow. Will I run off tot he regionals when I hit 1,500 hours? Not a chance in hell. Not until they start to pay me, and my fellow aviators what we are worth. We have a skill set that not many have, and we should be compensated for it. Pay me appropriately, and you'll have my app.

Quoting DiamondFlyer (Reply 20): because no airline is going to do the training unless it makes financial sense.

You summarized it pretty well the US corporate culture: even if life is at a *greater* risk but if I still save money: let's do it! I don't care about customer care as long as I'm making money! Let's do it!

I think that US corporations still have a lot to learn from European and Asian companies...


Just my 2 cents...

Quoting 744lover (Reply 22): I think that US corporations still have a lot to learn from European and Asian companies...

On how to stall an Airbus in the flight levels and crash it? Or how to land a 777 in a seawall?

Quoting airtran737 (Reply 21): He still had 3,379 hours. More than enough time to develop his skills as a captain and as an aviator. Same with the first office who had 2,244 hours of flight time. This accident had nothing to do with a magical 1,500 hour rule, it had to do with training failures on the carriers part, and poor decision making on the captains part.

Of course him flying for Gulfstream had a problem with his training. They took his money, and he flew, nobody really cared what he did once he was a paying customer.

I get it, hours isn't a magical fix all, but the odds of rolling a piece of safety legislation backwards is slim to none. Especially when the unions see it as a way to have pushed up pay.

-DiamondFlyer

Quoting DiamondFlyer (Reply 23): On how to stall an Airbus in the flight levels and crash it? Or how to land a 777 in a seawall?

I wrote learn: and learning has always two sides: what to do and what not to do. That's why you learn history in school. Repeat was has been done good and avoid what was done bad.

My point was that improving customer service and perception and leaving the profit-minded a little behind wouldn't hurt anyone...

But this is just whishful thinking. Wallstreet only cares how much profit you make.... and not how much more secure and safer your flying skills are because you spend double the amount of time in training

Quoting DiamondFlyer (Reply 20): Ab initio training is a terrible idea, as it basically ends up with a form of indentured servitude.

The military is a form of indentured servitude, and I don't see many people having a problem with that.

If the airline pays for the training, I don't see an issue with requiring a length of service from the pilot. If the pilot is paying for it themselves, however, then obviously any length of service requirement is not acceptable.

-Mir

This is all an attempt to prop up a broken business model in the airline industry. Regional fee-for-departure carriers are in a race to the bottom and this is the latest example of sustaining below market costs for airline service.

If we had regulations to end the outsourcing, or at least for mainline carriers to have full liability and responsibility of their regional partners then that would improve safety and quality of training immediately. Ultimately, if AA/DL/UA were operating small jets and props on their mainline certificate you would see a huge surge of applicants simply because of the defined career path it would offer instead of sitting in regional purgatory for years until you got hired into the 'big leagues'.

Quoting 744lover (Reply 22): I think that US corporations still have a lot to learn from European and Asian companies...

We haven't had one passenger death since 2009 with tens of million flights per year. USA aviation is on point. With a good training program you simply won't pass if you don't have the skills.

Quoting DiamondFlyer (Reply 20): Really? You think that's not enough? I did 6 sims, a PC and a LOFT and went to the line for IOE on the DC9. If you don't have it down that quick, you aren't probably cut out for 121 flying.

I'm saying it's not enough for someone's jet training when they show up with 500TT such as what was going on in 2007.

If someone brings 2000-3000TT and twin experience, or corporate jet time, etc. then the current 121 training programs are fine. But that is who they are tailored for -- and not 500TT new hires. A friend of mine was even hired at Mesaba with 300TT; I'm sure you recall that period of time when that was going on. That amount of hours is not the type of new hire that a few FTDs and half a dozen sims are set up for.

Lets try something for a change! Forget minimun hours!

I gurantee that if minimum pay for F/O was 36k a year there would not be a shortage.

Quoting xdlx (Reply 29): I gurantee that if minimum pay for F/O was 36k a year there would not be a shortage.

Most of the regionals are paying that now, in some form or another. And all they are doing is stealing pilots from other regionals.

-DiamondFlyer

Quoting KaiGywer (Reply 4): it's not the quantity of hours that matter, it's the quality.

There is some truth to this, but the more accurate statement is that effective pilot training and experience should develop aviators that have BOTH. Rote VFR hours will only take someone so far. IFR, stall recovery, icing conditions, density altitude, emergency responses, CRM, ALL of this and more as an entity is necessary to properly groom pilots to be prepared for 121 operations.

And then schedule and use them in a way that doesn't exacerbate fatigue and is contrary to known science of human factors. This is critical.

Quoting airtran737 (Reply 21): He still had 3,379 hours. More than enough time to develop his skills as a captain and as an aviator. Same with the first office who had 2,244 hours of flight time. This accident had nothing to do with a magical 1,500 hour rule, it had to do with training failures on the carriers part, and poor decision making on the captains part.

DING DING DING! Exactly right. There were systemic training and evaluation failures and not just by Colgan here. You cannot legislate good airmanship.

But you CAN train for it.

If the regionals want more pilots, they need to start with better pay. That's a completely separate issue from the safety-related changes stemmed from the Colgan accident.

With respect to the 1,500 hour rule, I actually support this rule. However, I think many people often over-simplify the problem and think that better training will magically solve everything. I firmly believe that we need pilots who have (1) better training and (2) more flight time. The most comprehensive way to enhance safety and reduce risks involves the effective implementation of these two initiatives. To those who argue that hours are a non-issue, it's important to understand that experience teaches things that training cannot - and vice versa. Therefore, it's important to have both.

For the record, I was hired by a US regional in 2006 with 560 TT.

Quoting DiamondFlyer (Reply 30): Most of the regionals are paying that now, in some form or another. And all they are doing is stealing pilots from other regionals.

Don't count per diem towards salary. They still don't pay enough.

Quoting airtran737 (Reply 33): Don't count per diem towards salary. They still don't pay enough.

You spend 50 bucks on dinner?

There is no airline, Regional or else, paying anyone $3k month starting pay.

Quoting 32andBelow (Reply 34): You spend 50 bucks on dinner?

Per diem isn't 50 bucks.

-Mir

Quoting Mir (Reply 36): Per diem isn't 50 bucks. -Mir

It is at my airline.

Quoting xdlx (Reply 35): There is no airline, Regional or else, paying anyone $3k month starting pay.

5X - $5,328
WN- $4,446
DL -$4,550
RP- $3,000
9S- $3,540
GB -$3,264

Just to name a few, All first year pay at minimum guarantee

[Edited 2015-12-02 11:29:29]

Quoting VS11 (Thread starter): New WSJ article about a new effort by regional airlines to address pilot recruitment. "Regional Airlines Seek Reduced Minimum Pilot-Experience Mandate"

The title of the WSJ article is slightly misleading. In my view, both the reporter and Faye Malarkey Black fail to effectively articulate the RAA's proposal. The RAA does not want to strike down the 1500 hour rule, but rather they want an alternate path that also has safeguards and industry-leading training courses / requirements to ensure regional pilot hires have real-world experience to deal with all aspects of flight and the curveballs that are thrown at them by various weather systems.

Quoting xdlx (Reply 35): There is no airline, Regional or else, paying anyone $3k month starting pay.

not true.

Quoting 32andBelow (Reply 37): It is at my airline.

Good for you. It is still idiotic to count on per diem as being part of your yearly income. What if you sit reserve the whole year and never fly, but your spending habits reflected that you had?

Quoting airtran737 (Reply 41): Good for you. It is still idiotic to count on per diem as being part of your yearly income. What if you sit reserve the whole year and never fly, but your spending habits reflected that you had?

Hourly employees all over the globe manage to adjust their expenses to their earnings based on the hours they get. Why would pilots be different?

Quoting LAX772LR (Reply 1): ...because the Colgan crash didn't teach them a thing.

Not so hot on the reading comprehension today?  

Quoting VS11 (Thread starter): "...The initiative lays out a potential alternate path to the cockpit for starting pilots that includes time sitting in airliner jump seats as observers, more-frequent proficiency checks by carriers, beefed-up stall-recovery training and a year or more of formal mentoring by senior pilots..."

Quoting LAX772LR (Reply 1): ...because the Colgan crash didn't teach them a thing.

The airlines that contract with the regionals had better learn to pay more so that the regionals can offer wages that will attract new pilots. Just like Alaska Airlines will have to get used to the $15.24-an-hour minimum wage applying to all employees at Sea-Tac, including the Menzies workers.

Quoting Mir (Reply 9): Dwindling pilot availability, or dwindling pilot interest?

Same thing. The market conditions have caused a lack of candidates and that is reflected in the lack of availability.

Quoting N757ST (Reply 16): As I sit I have ~12,000 hours and still can learn a thing or 2 i'm sure

That's a great attitude that far too many pilots do not have. I've seen way too many that get overconfident around 3,000-5,000 hours. It usually takes a significant incident to shake that arrogance and correct the attitude.

Quoting seahawk (Reply 18): European experience shows that ab-initio training works and offers a good solution, especially as the fresh FOs are paired with more experienced captains.

The problem with that in the US is that the experienced captains will have better schedules and the senior FOs usually end up flying with the senior captains. The new guys would end up with a higher quality of life than the more senior FOs and that would require some creative thinking to address.

Quoting sierrakilo44 (Reply 12): As well as no $18k per year salaries, no all night commuting across the country because you can't afford to live in your base, no sleeping in the pilot's lounge because you can't afford a hotel room

I thought one of the Colgan pilots had a cross country commute due to a ski vacation?

Quoting luv2cattlecall (Reply 46): I thought one of the Colgan pilots had a cross country commute due to a ski vacation?

The FO commuted from Seattle and slept in the crew room from what I remember

Quoting infiniti329 (Reply 38):

And all are hiring?

Quoting xdlx (Reply 48): And all are hiring?

Of the few that I posted all but one are currently hiring