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luv2cattlecall
Posts: 868
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RE: Regionals Seek Reduced Minimum Pilot-Experience

Thu Dec 03, 2015 3:07 am

Quoting as739x (Reply 47):
The FO commuted from Seattle and slept in the crew room from what I remember

I just checked the NTSB report..Looks like she had 4 days of rest and went skiing. She decided to cut it close and take a late jumpseat on a fedex flight to mem, then onwards to EWR.

Her original routing was cancelled, so she had a 6 hour nap in the crew room. She texted her husband about how she felt very well rested.

Quote:
First Officer Shaw had four days off duty preceding the accident flight.7
Her last
flight prior to the accident flight ended in EWR at 1455 on February 8, 2009. On February
9, 2009, telephone records indicate outbound SMS messages were sent between 2152
and 2218 PST.
According to her husband, FO Shaw awoke at home in Washington on February 10,
2009, between 0900-1000 PST. At 0926 PST, she placed a call lasting about five minutes,
followed by several calls between 0931-0949 PST. She later went skiing in the Seattle
area, returning home that afternoon. The evening was spent at home watching TV with
her husband, who stated she went to sleep between 2000-2200 PST. At 2020 PST, she
made a three minute call; and at 2214 PST she sent a SMS mess
 
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Aaron747
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RE: Regionals Seek Reduced Minimum Pilot-Experience

Thu Dec 03, 2015 3:22 am

Quoting DiamondFlyer (Reply 23):
On how to stall an Airbus in the flight levels and crash it? Or how to land a 777 in a seawall?

Oh come on what a ridiculous straw man. At least criticize the correct airlines if you're going to post garbage like that.

The ab initio programs oft-cited as successes are CX, BA, LH, and QF. Tell me the last time any of those carriers had the type of incidents you describe.  
 
toxtethogrady
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RE: Regionals Seek Reduced Minimum Pilot-Experience

Thu Dec 03, 2015 9:36 pm

Quoting 32andBelow (Reply 34):
You spend 50 bucks on dinner?

That can be done very easily. Even in average joints like Ruth's Chris. Per-diems for business travelers are over $125 a day.
 
flyby519
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RE: Regionals Seek Reduced Minimum Pilot-Experience

Thu Dec 03, 2015 9:49 pm

Quoting toxtethogrady (Reply 52):
can be done very easily. Even in average joints like Ruth's Chris. Per-diems for business travelers are over $125 a day.

Not to mention when the company puts us in isolated hotel areas where the only dinner option is the $18 burger in the lobby restaurant. That adds up quickly.
 
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par13del
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RE: Regionals Seek Reduced Minimum Pilot-Experience

Thu Dec 03, 2015 10:03 pm

Quoting flyby519 (Reply 26):
Ultimately, if AA/DL/UA were operating small jets and props on their mainline certificate you would see a huge surge of applicants simply because of the defined career path it would offer instead of sitting in regional purgatory for years until you got hired into the 'big leagues'.

So the question is, why did they out-source the jobs versus operating all these other type a/c with various salary scales with a confirmed route from top to bottom?
Yes I know, a topic for another thread, but in essence either this or true regional's with no obligations to legacies will ultimately emerge, when is another story.
 
32andBelow
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RE: Regionals Seek Reduced Minimum Pilot-Experience

Thu Dec 03, 2015 10:24 pm

Quoting toxtethogrady (Reply 52):
That can be done very easily. Even in average joints like Ruth's Chris. Per-diems for business travelers are over $125 a day.

Were regionals RON there are no "average joints like Ruth's Chris"
 
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Semaex
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RE: Regionals Seek Reduced Minimum Pilot-Experience

Thu Dec 03, 2015 11:09 pm

Quoting VS11 (Thread starter):
"Regional Airlines Seek Reduced Minimum Pilot-Experience Mandate"

http://www.wsj.com/articles/regional...05336

Article only fully visible for subscribers, sorry.

Quoting LAX772LR (Reply 1):
...because the Colgan crash didn't teach them a thing.
Quoting seahawk (Reply 18):
I personally think a better trained pilot with less hours is better than a pilot with less training but more hours.

Here's where the discussion begins.

Quoting N757ST (Reply 19):
As a pilot that has gone through the process and then flown with lower time FOs, while both can fly the airplane which isn't all that hard, the higher time pilot usually has scared themselves enough and seen enough to make better decisions then the lower time guy. The lower time pilot is great at rote knowledge, but introduce a situation that doesn't necessarily exist in an obscure flow chart in the QRH and they are more lost.

I think we can agree on the point that pilots with more hours are more experienced. That's a no-brainer.
What I don't understand is the cowboy-attitude towards an "obscure flow chart in the QRH". The documentation has been established for a reason. If you don't stick to what the OM-A and OM-B are telling you, than you are nothing more than the kind of pilot who can do Cessna tours through Florida, but please don't dare to think that you've got enough safety culture to transport a hundred souls.

Quoting DiamondFlyer (Reply 20):
Ab initio training is a terrible idea, as it basically ends up with a form of indentured servitude. Any sort of long term training contract is going to be tough to enforce in the US, which makes the whole thing a non-starter, because no airline is going to do the training unless it makes financial sense.

Wow, now that's a strong opinion. Can you convince airlines such as LH, CA or BA to stop their ab initio programs because they don't make sense financially? If you want good employees, you invest money in them, period. Maybe that kind of philosophy isn't very popular on your side of the pond, because "an employee who costs money is a bad employee"? Well, then I guess the bill will be payed with blood sooner or later.

Quoting DiamondFlyer (Reply 23):
Quoting 744lover (Reply 22):I think that US corporations still have a lot to learn from European and Asian companies...

On how to stall an Airbus in the flight levels and crash it? Or how to land a 777 in a seawall?

Are these crahes in any way related to pilot salaries or the difference in flight hours? No they aren't. AF was bad training and inadherence to Company/OEM procedures. MH isn't even known yet. So please stop that kind of talk.



I really don't see the big discussion when it comes to low hours for SO's/FO's. There are too many Airlines to count who rely on youngsters who do not have experience but who are trained to follow procedures procedures procedures. If in our modern, high technology A3x7x7CPDLCRVSMyounameit environment you are not able to follow procedures, not even your 10,000 hours of Buffalo DC-3 flying can help you.
 
DTWHKG
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RE: Regionals Seek Reduced Minimum Pilot-Experience

Thu Dec 03, 2015 11:16 pm

Quoting RWA380 (Reply 7):
IMPE, I've never seen quality come from reducing experience & adding quantity to any job.

Quality of training can definitely make more difference than experience. If you don't have PhD training, no matter how many years of whatever experience you have, you can't be a faculty member. Same thing.
 
ual777
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RE: Regionals Seek Reduced Minimum Pilot-Experience

Fri Dec 04, 2015 6:03 am

Quoting Semaex (Reply 56):
Are these crahes in any way related to pilot salaries or the difference in flight hours? No they aren't. AF was bad training and inadherence to Company/OEM procedures. MH isn't even known yet. So please stop that kind of talk.

I really don't see the big discussion when it comes to low hours for SO's/FO's. There are too many Airlines to count who rely on youngsters who do not have experience but who are trained to follow procedures procedures procedures. If in our modern, high technology A3x7x7CPDLCRVSMyounameit environment you are not able to follow procedures, not even your 10,000 hours of Buffalo DC-3 flying can help you.

The AF crash absolutely has to do with experience. Not only did they ignore procedures, but they didn't even revert to basic pitch and power which in my mind is worse.

Instructing as a CFI/II/MEI provides invaluable experience to an instructor. Not only do you gain valuable PIC at an early stage, but you gain superb knowledge of regulations and concepts at the same time. I've taught students from 6 different countries at all levels. My Chinese students who are flying A330s still tell me thank you 8 years later for the stick and rudder and basic airmanship skills I taught.

One example: I noticed when teaching them holds they would show up early and calculate wind correction angles. When we would go hold, they would struggle if the winds aloft forecast didn't match their calculations. So on the next lesson as we approached the VOR I asked for their calculations and threw them out the window and told them "if the needle moves a little, turn a little," and they learned to hold with the best of them. Now you might ask why do that and the reason is simple: when things are going to hell in a hand basket, they might pick the wrong QRH procedure or skip something on a checklist, but I'll be damned if they plant it due to poor airmanship because at the end of the day that might be the only thing you have to rely on.

Different students from different parts of the world excel in different areas. Asian students would memorize study assignments with astonishing speed but struggled thinking outside the box. American students were kind of the opposite, and the Europeans were kind of a blend. (Generally speaking of course).

The AF FOs IF NOTHING ELSE should have descended and picked a pitch and power setting then hit the QRH. The fact that they stalled an airliner at cruise is inexcusable (and yes losing your airspeed indications is scary). Ditto for the Asiana guys that planted the 777 on a clear day. I've done more stalls and spins than I can remember and you can feel the airplane getting slow. The fact that they did nothing physically makes me angry.

In fact while I was on IOE on the 757/767 my check airmen would make me hand fly up into the 20s with and without the flight director and would make me hand fly approaches from the downwind. Too many airlines rely too much on automation and it shows.
 
goboeing
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RE: Regionals Seek Reduced Minimum Pilot-Experience

Fri Dec 04, 2015 6:13 am

Quoting 32andBelow (Reply 55):
Were regionals RON there are no "average joints like Ruth's Chris"

I remember staying at the Metropolitan in downtown Toronto at a regional, or The Fairmont in St. John's, or the Hyatt Fisherman's Wharf, and I remember the prices not being conducive to staying on whatever $20 a day budget you're unsuccessfully attempting to make it sound like is feasible.
 
Passedv1
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RE: Regionals Seek Reduced Minimum Pilot-Experience

Fri Dec 04, 2015 9:19 am

Quoting seahawk (Reply 18):
I personally think a better trained pilot with less hours is better than a pilot with less training but more hours. European experience shows that ab-initio training works and offers a good solution, especially as the fresh FOs are paired with more experienced captains. Collecting hours flying as a PPL instructor or towing gliders in a sunny place is not going to help when you are flying an airliner in crappy weather, a few more sim hours spent on such situations might help though. Especially as the typical ways to gain hours are hardly helping to improve the CRM skills of the future FOs.

The importance of the total time in my opinion is not that you somehow magically become a great pilot at 1500 hours but you have established a history long enough to hopefully detect if you are a s-up or not. The analogy I would use is young people initially trying to buy a house with "no credit". Certainly, many responsible young adults are turned away but the banks problem is that they cannot distinguish the good credit risks from the bad credit risks and therefore lend to none.

Quoting Aaron747 (Reply 51):
Oh come on what a ridiculous straw man. At least criticize the correct airlines if you're going to post garbage like that.

The ab initio programs oft-cited as successes are CX, BA, LH, and QF. Tell me the last time any of those carriers had the type of incidents you describe.

That list keeps getting shorter, AF would have been included on that list in the past....notwithstanding...

These are all mainline carriers which is an important distinction. BA, CX, LH, QF pilots aren't using these airlines as a stepping stone so they don't have the attrition problem that the US regionals do. To have a proper ab-initio program, you need to have experienced pilots to mentor the cadets once they are on the line. At the US regionals all of the experienced pilots are getting snatched up by DL, UA, AA, etc. In the Colgan accident there wasn't 10,000 hours between the two pilots, in most major US airline cockpits, the FO has got 10,000 hours by themselves. Airline flying is pretty benign. In order to be assured that the people flying have learned some lessons, it takes a lot of hours. By the time regional captains get any kind of reasonable amount of experience they are snatched up. The regional airlines have a bunch of new guys paired up with a bunch of REALLY new guys...that doesn't make for a good ab-initio program.

Quoting VS11 (Thread starter):
beefed-up stall-recovery training

This is at the very least disingenuous..."beefed-up stall-recovery training" is coming to ALL US 121 pilots at all 121 airlines which must be implemented by 2018.
 
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seahawk
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RE: Regionals Seek Reduced Minimum Pilot-Experience

Fri Dec 04, 2015 1:50 pm

For me it is more like car drivers. You have some who drive for decades, yet they can not control the can in an emergency situation, on the other hand you have young drivers who have been through driver trainings and learnt to control the car in an extreme situation.

It is not different with pilots. If you have flown 2000 hours in 172 in sunny Florida it helps nothing when you have to regain control of an airliner about to stall. The guy who might have flown just 300 hours with 20 being the training of extreme situations in the sim, could have an advantage.

I think the biggest difference is a cultural thing. Young pilots in Europe are considered as an asset that will be trained to become a good pilot for the airline. Young pilots in the US are expected to do their job for as little money as possible.

In the end one must imho remember that the armed Forces are doing ab initio training for their fighter pilots, so with a good training it seems to work. If a guy with less than 1000 hours can fly a F15, he should be able to be the FO in an airliner too.
 
flyby519
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RE: Regionals Seek Reduced Minimum Pilot-Experience

Fri Dec 04, 2015 4:33 pm

Quoting par13del (Reply 54):
the question is, why did they out-source the jobs versus operating all these other type a/c with various salary scales with a confirmed route from top to bottom?
Yes I know, a topic for another thread, but in essence either this or true regional's with no obligations to legacies will ultimately emerge, when is another story.

Mainline unions wanted inflated salaries, so mgmt offered bigger salaries if they gave away the rights to fly these small planes. The unions took the bait and the rest is history. Sub-standard wages at the regional level subsidize the highest pay scales at the mainline partner. Additionally, this outsourcing ability creates many more jobs at the low end regional level than there should be otherwise, so it was inevitable to run into a 'shortage' of pilots.

I agree that a drastic change needs to happen, either mainline operates everything or regionals go back to being their own brand and not directly controlled by mainline partners.
 
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lightsaber
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RE: Regionals Seek Reduced Minimum Pilot-Experience

Fri Dec 04, 2015 8:37 pm

Have any small cities lost service? When enough of that happens, there will be political will to get more pilots. Of course, that will be years too late. I do wonder how many airports will lose service...

Majors pay well enough they'll have pilots. Before they have issues, the 'pipeline' will restart.



Lightsaber
 
sierrakilo44
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RE: Regionals Seek Reduced Minimum Pilot-Experience

Sat Dec 05, 2015 1:10 am

Quoting ual777 (Reply 58):
Now you might ask why do that and the reason is simple: when things are going to hell in a hand basket, they might pick the wrong QRH procedure or skip something on a checklist,

Why don't we train them in a structured, procedural environment from the start so they are less likely to skip checklists or use wrong procedures to begin with?

Quoting ual777 (Reply 58):
The fact that they did nothing physically makes me angry.

The fact the UPS pilots in Alabama descended well below minima on a non-precision approach makes me angry. The fact the Southwest pilots who overran in Burbank thought you could ignore GPWS warnings and land 45kts too fast was OK makes me angry. The fact that countless other incidents that have occurred where pilots have done dangerous things who have had thousands of hours in instructing, charter or military before joining airlines makes me angry. The difference is I'm not demonising an entire group of pilots based on ill informed prejudices.
 
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Semaex
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RE: Regionals Seek Reduced Minimum Pilot-Experience

Sat Dec 05, 2015 2:10 am

Quoting ual777 (Reply 58):
Instructing as a CFI/II/MEI provides invaluable experience to an instructor. Not only do you gain valuable PIC at an early stage, but you gain superb knowledge of regulations and concepts at the same time.

You see, I did my VFR in the US, and I've had five different instructors with five different approaches to a problem. None of them were company procedures. That's just not cool.

Quoting ual777 (Reply 58):
One example: I noticed when teaching them holds they would show up early and calculate wind correction angles. When we would go hold, they would struggle if the winds aloft forecast didn't match their calculations. So on the next lesson as we approached the VOR I asked for their calculations and threw them out the window and told them "if the needle moves a little, turn a little," and they learned to hold with the best of them. Now you might ask why do that and the reason is simple: when things are going to hell in a hand basket, they might pick the wrong QRH procedure or skip something on a checklist, but I'll be damned if they plant it due to poor airmanship because at the end of the day that might be the only thing you have to rely on.

... and this is precisely a topic that was covered in the OM-D of our (european) flight school, in every Detail you explained!
What I'm saying is: If you've got very good and thorough company procedures established, you will never need to revert to "back in my VFR-days"-knowledge, which in the worst case only one of the two pilots knows about.

Quoting ual777 (Reply 58):
Different students from different parts of the world excel in different areas. Asian students would memorize study assignments with astonishing speed but struggled thinking outside the box. American students were kind of the opposite, and the Europeans were kind of a blend. (Generally speaking of course).

My experience too, to be honest.

Quoting ual777 (Reply 58):
The AF FOs IF NOTHING ELSE should have descended and picked a pitch and power setting then hit the QRH. The fact that they stalled an airliner at cruise is inexcusable (and yes losing your airspeed indications is scary).

What they did was not stick to a procedure which has been implemented by the manufacturer and not been tought by the company. They had incredibly bad crew training (which colleagues who have sim rides in France can confirm - take a guess where the term "Laissez-faire" comes from). But this tragedy only confirms my point, which is that one pilot did something the other pilot didn't do i.e. there was no common ground on company procedures to be followed. When the one pilot pulled on the sidestick instead of pushing, what he actually did was follow a gut-feeling, not training. What you seem to promote is that in some situations that's precisely the right thing to do. It isn't.
 
airtechy
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RE: Regionals Seek Reduced Minimum Pilot-Experience

Sat Dec 05, 2015 2:52 am

Quoting DiamondFlyer (Reply 23):

On how to stall an Airbus in the flight levels and crash it? Or how to land a 777 in a seawall?

Agree 100 percent....
 
ual777
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RE: Regionals Seek Reduced Minimum Pilot-Experience

Sat Dec 05, 2015 8:06 am

Quoting sierrakilo44 (Reply 64):
Why don't we train them in a structured, procedural environment from the start so they are less likely to skip checklists or use wrong procedures to begin with?

Because humans make mistakes in the heat of battle.

Quoting sierrakilo44 (Reply 64):
The difference is I'm not demonising an entire group of pilots based on ill informed prejudices.

Neither am I, I'm demonising the lack of basic airmanship and I strongly believe time building through instruction corrects it.

Quoting Semaex (Reply 65):

You see, I did my VFR in the US, and I've had five different instructors with five different approaches to a problem. None of them were company procedures. That's just not cool.

No it's not if it doesn't conform, however technique and gospel should not be confused.

Quoting Semaex (Reply 65):

See here's the thing, I'm not saying procedures shouldn't be followed. What I am saying is building time as a CFI gives you a bag of tools a 250 hour commercial pilot doesn't have. For example if the other pilot isn't communicating and starts yanking back on the stick/yoke you can feel the airplane getting slow, see the task saturation, and at a minimum keep the aircraft in a desired aircraft state until CRM and company procedures can be used.

It's hard to explain but I'll put it like this: as a CFI (if you are doing your job right) you spend a lot of time watching students who make a lot of mistakes. As they become more proficient, you throw curve balls at them to keep them learning and task saturated. So you really with time spend a lot of time catching errors and spending your time slow, uncoordinated, or in a stall. This is what develops the bag of tools I mentioned. The ability to very rapidly recognize when the other guy is over tasked and a real feel for the airplane. It is exactly for this reason that the major airlines in the US value instructor time and check airmen.

Now do some guys instruct just to build time? Yes and they are bad at it. I didn't do my training in Florida or Arizona so I was learning and teaching instruments in hard IMC almost the entire winter out of an airport with a lot of jet traffic. This creates a far better training environment.

Can a 250 hour pilot fly a Boeing or Airbus with a very regimented training program? Sure. Is a pilot with 500-1000 hours dual given and regimented training better? Absolutely.

The differences in opinion are also reflected by the continents we come from as well. I've noticed flying in Europe is far more regimented than it is in the US. It's the differences in the air traffic systems that cause the differences in philosophy.
 
DeltaRules
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RE: Regionals Seek Reduced Minimum Pilot-Experience

Sat Dec 05, 2015 3:21 pm

Captain Sully has chimed in on his Facebook page. What once used be a forum for love and adoration from commenters has now put him/his PR handlers on the receiving end of a flamethrower:

https://www.facebook.com/sully/posts/10153784480002236?comment_id=10153784616432236&notif_t=like
 
EIDL
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RE: Regionals Seek Reduced Minimum Pilot-Experience

Sat Dec 05, 2015 3:36 pm

Quoting apodino (Reply 5):
Rebecca Shaw at the time she was hired did not have enough hours to meet the new requirements.

She was over them at the time of the crash - so that's not really relevant

The 1500 hours rule was a knee-jerk reaction to be seen to be doing something when what was required was a far more serious change in operations standards.
 
slider
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RE: Regionals Seek Reduced Minimum Pilot-Experience

Sat Dec 05, 2015 3:50 pm

Quoting DeltaRules (Reply 68):
Captain Sully has chimed in on his Facebook page.

I've about had enough of Sully. Maybe when he's done walking on water, he can stop being an ALPA stooge. And his comment is wrong on so many levels. I'm glad to read regional captains responding to this as well.
 
TUSDawg23
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RE: Regionals Seek Reduced Minimum Pilot-Experience

Sat Dec 05, 2015 4:22 pm

My question is if we expect every ATP to have 1500 hours, who is going to pay for that? Flight training is very expensive. For many years, the US has been the leader in being a great flight training environment with lower costs than other parts of the world. But just to get a private, many schools charge north of 10K these days. Can we expect that young people who are also incurring debt from getting a college degree which the majors want folks to have also have the dough to dish out for flight training on top of that to become airline pilots?

I think the regionals raising pay will not do much to attract people to the profession, because the barriers to entry are still so high. I can go get my CDL and become a truck driver making 40K in a few months or I can dish out 70K on flight training and spend 3 to 5 years building up time so I can get a regional job that pays less than 40K a year.
 
DeltaRules
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RE: Regionals Seek Reduced Minimum Pilot-Experience

Sat Dec 05, 2015 4:32 pm

Sully's 15 minutes have been up for a while. He's just trying to remain relevant as long as he can to be an activist.

Quoting TUSDawg23 (Reply 71):
My question is if we expect every ATP to have 1500 hours, who is going to pay for that? Flight training is very expensive. For many years, the US has been the leader in being a great flight training environment with lower costs than other parts of the world. But just to get a private, many schools charge north of 10K these days. Can we expect that young people who are also incurring debt from getting a college degree which the majors want folks to have also have the dough to dish out for flight training on top of that to become airline pilots?

Using data I collected for a research paper two years ago, a four-year degree at Embry-Riddle, with flight training, housing, etc. included, can run over $200,000. ERAU is one of the schools approved for R-ATP and the 500 hour credit.

It can be done for less, but the money saved is washed out be extra time to build.
 
bjorn14
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RE: Regionals Seek Reduced Minimum Pilot-Experience

Sat Dec 05, 2015 5:27 pm

I think Part 135 carriers and Part 121 carriers operating aircraft of 50 seats or less should be able to hire FOs with 500 hours and maybe with the ATP written. IMHO.
 
N353SK
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RE: Regionals Seek Reduced Minimum Pilot-Experience

Sat Dec 05, 2015 5:33 pm

Quoting bjorn14 (Reply 73):
I think Part 135 carriers and Part 121 carriers operating aircraft of 50 seats or less should be able to hire FOs with 500 hours and maybe with the ATP written. IMHO.

Why would it be safe for pilot with 500 hours to fly a 50 seat jet but not a 70 seat jet? Same rules, same airspace, same speeds, same everything.
 
bjorn14
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RE: Regionals Seek Reduced Minimum Pilot-Experience

Sat Dec 05, 2015 6:26 pm

Quoting N353SK (Reply 74):

Maybe I should modify it to turboprops.
 
SWALUV
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RE: Regionals Seek Reduced Minimum Pilot-Experience

Sat Dec 05, 2015 6:30 pm

Quoting 32andBelow (Reply 55):
Were regionals RON there are no "average joints like Ruth's Chris"

To add to that, how much do you make that Ruth Chris is considered average haha.
 
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par13del
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RE: Regionals Seek Reduced Minimum Pilot-Experience

Sat Dec 05, 2015 6:33 pm

Quoting lightsaber (Reply 63):
I do wonder how many airports will lose service...

I suspect since most are controlled by politicians, that will be the primary driver of the push for change, not when the airlines remove service, they have been doing so for years and the local authorities have been playing or been played for musical chairs.

Quoting sierrakilo44 (Reply 64):
Why don't we train them in a structured, procedural environment from the start so they are less likely to skip checklists or use wrong procedures to begin with?

Usually, we continue to learn new things from every accident, it may be better to get the "feel for flying" versus go through numerous procedures, when you hit one that has not been documented what do you do???

Quoting Semaex (Reply 65):
You see, I did my VFR in the US

May I ask why, was it easier, cheaper or just because you were in the US at the time?
 
aviationaware
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RE: Regionals Seek Reduced Minimum Pilot-Experience

Sat Dec 05, 2015 6:37 pm

Quoting LAX772LR (Reply 1):
...because the Colgan crash didn't teach them a thing.  

Hundreds of pilots without any hours (except those gained in their training, which rarely exceed the low three digits) are going online in Europe (and elsewhere in the world) every year, and yet nothing happens here.

Attributing such a crash to lack of flying hours is a pretty easy way to shift the blame from lackluster control systems and the general tendency in the regional airline industry to pay pilots too little, causing them to have very unhealthy living patterns with ridiculously long commutes and such bizarre excesses as crash pads.
 
goboeing
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RE: Regionals Seek Reduced Minimum Pilot-Experience

Sat Dec 05, 2015 9:44 pm

Quoting 32andBelow (Reply 55):
Were regionals RON there are no "average joints like Ruth's Chris"

Again, at a regional airline I found myself walking out of the hotel in San Francisco to dinner at Fisherman's Wharf two blocks away.

Downtown Seattle...not cheap.

Toronto, Montreal, Vancouver.

Your assertion that fee-for-departure airlines layover exclusively in places that are dirt cheap is puzzling, and incorrect.
 
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Semaex
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RE: Regionals Seek Reduced Minimum Pilot-Experience

Sun Dec 06, 2015 3:04 am

Quoting ual777 (Reply 67):
The differences in opinion are also reflected by the continents we come from as well. I've noticed flying in Europe is far more regimented than it is in the US. It's the differences in the air traffic systems that cause the differences in philosophy.

I think we agree on this point more than than on other points. As a dispatcher (keyword eurocontrol...) and a pilot (keyword radiotelephony... ) I see a lot more reglementation in Europe than in the US. This is probably where the difference in flight hour philosophies come from. But that may also be a chicken and egg debate.

Quoting Semaex (Reply 65):
You see, I did my VFR in the US
Quoting par13del (Reply 77):
May I ask why, was it easier, cheaper or just because you were in the US at the time?

My german flight school had a cooperation with Flightsafety Intl in the US. Considering I logged about 100h SEP in the US, there's a good chance it was actually cheaper than flying in Europe (think about fuel costs and airport fees). Plus, you don't need a radiotelephone license for basic VFR lessons in the US, whereas in Europe (or at least in Germany) you do, and that license was acquired much later in my training.
Of course, IFR was done in European airspace, partly because the goal was to get used to flying over here, and partly because it was required for lesson accreditation.

Man, I'd love to go back to the US for a couple of month for flying VFR. That was hella fun!
 
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shengzhurou
Posts: 179
Joined: Thu May 27, 2010 5:07 am

RE: Regionals Seek Reduced Minimum Pilot-Experience

Sun Dec 06, 2015 12:49 pm

who has the money to pay for the 1500 flying hours in the u.s.? a lot of flt school closed down in the u.s. and people who went on to take the ATP or get a commercial rating has declined. a few years ago, flt instructor used to tell me that it's hard to find people wants to fly a tail wheel airplane to learn stick and rudder skills along with upset training, now it's hard to find people wants to learn how to fly and have a career as a pilot.

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