American Announces New Int'l Prem Econ Cabin

Jamake1 · Wed Dec 09, 2015 2:11 pm

Rolls out in 2016. I have to say, the seats look nice. Will UA and DL follow suit?

http://finance.yahoo.com/news/americ...s-innovation-launch-140000710.html

einsteinboricua · Wed Dec 09, 2015 2:16 pm

In other words, business class is back in all except name. Call it a business class lite if you will...too premium to be Main Cabin but too inferior to be a true business class.

jeffh747 · Wed Dec 09, 2015 2:19 pm

Those seats look really comfortable. Good to see AA changing it up still.

usairways85 · Wed Dec 09, 2015 2:21 pm

I guess this is why we haven't seen any cabin reconfigs on the LUS 330s.

Jamake1 · Wed Dec 09, 2015 2:24 pm

Quoting usairways85 (Reply 3):
I guess this is why we haven't seen any cabin reconfigs on the LUS 330s.

Per the press release, the A330's will be getting the new product. The 767-300's will not as they will be phased out in the coming years.

Sightseer · Wed Dec 09, 2015 2:26 pm

Reminds me of domestic first, in a good way. Nice to finally see a true W product on a US carrier. I expect DL to announce its own product in the coming months and wouldn't be shocked to see UA do the same.

CPDC10-30 · Wed Dec 09, 2015 2:27 pm

Glad to see there will still be Main Cabin Extra seats. I was worried those were going to be canned.

However it will be interesting to see how systemwide upgrades from economy will work for longhaul once this launches.

BHMNONREV · Wed Dec 09, 2015 2:27 pm

Seats do look nice, however the pitch looks to be lacking a bit. Hoping this will be comparable to the Qantas offering of Premium Economy, one of the better ones out there.

Wondering how this will pan out for EXP and Platinum members and getting access to this cabin. I can see AA making us use SWU's to upgrade to the new cabin..

readytotaxi · Wed Dec 09, 2015 2:32 pm

Looks a little better than Virgins Premium product, have to wait and see. What routes will probably see this first?

CPDC10-30 · Wed Dec 09, 2015 2:34 pm

Quoting BHMNONREV (Reply 7):

Wondering how this will pan out for EXP and Platinum members and getting access to this cabin.

I would be absolutely amazed if AA will allow EXPs / Plat to select seats in this cabin and pay an economy fare. At least there will still be MCE but I imagine the cabin will be smaller and harder to get into.

deltal1011man · Wed Dec 09, 2015 2:38 pm

Finally. Good to see US airlines adding a true W class. I fully expect DL/UA to also do the same.

jetblue1965 · Wed Dec 09, 2015 2:42 pm

So AA would literally have 5 sections on their 77W ? F, J, PE, MCE, and Y ? Dang.

zeke · Wed Dec 09, 2015 2:47 pm

Quoting Sightseer (Reply 5):

Same, looks like a long haul domestic first class.

BHMNONREV · Wed Dec 09, 2015 2:48 pm

Quoting CPDC10-30 (Reply 9):
Quoting BHMNONREV (Reply 7):
Wondering how this will pan out for EXP and Platinum members and getting access to this cabin.
I would be absolutely amazed if AA will allow EXPs / Plat to select seats in this cabin and pay an economy fare. At least there will still be MCE but I imagine the cabin will be smaller and harder to get into.

As would I, I can see AA continuing the dilution of the AAdvantage program to be more in line with DL/UA and force EXP/Plat to use the SWU for the "one class upgrade in service".

Just expecting the worst here...

jfk777 · Wed Dec 09, 2015 2:49 pm

Quoting jetblue1965 (Reply 11):

So AA would literally have 5 sections on their 77W ? F, J, PE, MCE, and Y ? Dang.

MCE is NOT a separate class its Y with a few extra inches. But yes it wil have 4 classes like a Singapore Airlines A380 which is the standard as far as I am concerned, second would be a Cathay 77W.

IS the Y+ cabin coing out of the J class sections ? I would hate it if AA saw the "unwisdom" in taking out some of those fabulous Cathay J class seats their 77W has. The 77W is the best plane AA has and should have all the airlines products from First Class suites on down to regular economy.

CPDC10-30 · Wed Dec 09, 2015 2:51 pm

Quoting BHMNONREV (Reply 13):
Just expecting the worst here...

Given what they've just done to AAdvantage you would be justified in expecting the worst! At least I made EXP for 2015, I'm looking forward to using the eight SWUs as quickly as possible

rta · Wed Dec 09, 2015 2:53 pm

The new seat looks pretty decent but if the "noise cancelling" headphones are like anything I tried in BA's WT+, they're really not worth talking about. Hopefully the meals are good though.

Also, it seems like everyone these days have priority boarding.

jetblue1965 · Wed Dec 09, 2015 2:55 pm

Quoting jfk777 (Reply 14):

MCE is NOT a separate class its Y with a few extra inches. But yes it wil have 4 classes like a Singapore Airlines A380 which is the standard as far as I am concerned, second would be a Cathay 77W.

IS the Y+ cabin coing out of the J class sections ? I would hate it if AA saw the "unwisdom" in taking out some of those fabulous Cathay J class seats their 77W has. The 77W is the best plane AA has and should have all the airlines products from First Class suites on down to regular economy.

That's why I chose the word "section" not "class". But in the long run, I don't see PE and MCE really coexisting in the future, despite their press release attempting to re-assure that for now.

By the same yard stick, DL is very much in progress to make Comfort+ into true PE.

The true hammer will arrive when upgrade policies start dictating only Y-to-PE and PE-to-J is allowed. That day of reckoning is fast approaching.

phillyramp270 · Wed Dec 09, 2015 3:01 pm

But back to the A330s

In my opinion, the A330s Envoy/business class is okay at best. But it needs to be gutted and reconfigured to what we have on the other widebodies for some consistency.. Especially the 300's. That's a lot of premium seats

OA412 · Wed Dec 09, 2015 3:05 pm

Quoting Jamake1 (Thread starter):
Will UA and DL follow suit?

The rumor mill seems to indicate that DL is planning on announcing something similar with the arrival of the A350's in 2017. I haven't heard anything about UA, but if both AA and DL go the Y+ route, UA is fairly certain to follow.

AmericanHeavy · Wed Dec 09, 2015 3:10 pm

Quoting Sightseer (Reply 5):
Reminds me of domestic first, in a good way.

Quoting zeke (Reply 12):
Same, looks like a long haul domestic first class.

The seats look to be the new B/E First class for the PMUS A319s, with added leg rests and AVOD.

From the other thread:
Here's The Pmus New Interior (by Max752 Dec 2 2015 in Civil Aviation)

777ord · Wed Dec 09, 2015 3:16 pm

I had a hard time keeping this one quiet! So glad it's officially announced.

United787 · Wed Dec 09, 2015 3:25 pm

So business class became more like the old first class so first class became obsolete.
So premium business class became more like the old business class.

No thank you. I hope UA doesn't follow. Although I would love to sit in this seat for the long haul, E+ provides me all I really need (more legroom) at a price point that is affordable. Great value, IMO.

OA412 · Wed Dec 09, 2015 3:26 pm

Quoting AmericanHeavy (Reply 20):

Not too surprising. Most of the Y+ products out there are not much different from domestic US first class.

Quoting 777ord (Reply 21):
I had a hard time keeping this one quiet! So glad it's officially announced.

Thank you for not posting a guessing-game thread full of

jumpjets · Wed Dec 09, 2015 3:29 pm

I think its particularly good news for the TATL JV with the IAG companies. IAG will I believe be introducing Y+ on IB and EI. So this in aggregate will mean a wider and more consistent choice for those TATL travelers who like Y+ and are (fairly) loyal to OneWorld.

ckfred · Wed Dec 09, 2015 3:31 pm

One thing to remember is that businesses are getting stingy with travel. I know people who, say 10 years ago, could fly F on US-Asia flights and J on East Coast/Chicago to Europe. Now, it's J to Asia and Y to Europe.

So, Y+ is aimed at the business traveler who can't get approval to fly J on an expense account.

I flew World Traveler Plus this summer on ORD-LHR-ORD. Flying to London on a Saturday evening, it appeared that J was close to full, as was Y, but Y+ was almost half empty. Most everyone appeared to be traveling leisure. On the return on a Monday afternoon, it was a full airplane, with Y+ appearing to have a number of business travelers (i.e., a lot more laptops).

The question I have is how much longer will the 763s be in the fleet? At what point to they switch to routes that skew towards leisure traffic that can't generate sales for Y+?

AA is still flying a 763 on ORD-LHR along with 2 772s. When the 4th flight is added for next summer, it will be a 763. Come fall, one of the 772s switches to a 763, making the mix 1 772 and 3 763s.

At some point, ORD-LHR has to switch fully to aircraft with Y+ and AVOD throughout the cabin.

jetblue1965 · Wed Dec 09, 2015 3:32 pm

The risk, real or perceived, is that corporate clients will start forcing their mid-level folks to fly PE instead of true J. It would be curious to see if this risk actually materializes or not. On the plus side, AA might be doing this just to align with their largest JV partners of BA, JL, and soon QF, all of which have a true PE.

Pricing is key here. Around the world, true PE is routinely priced 50% more (like BR) or up to 100% more (like JL/NH) than regular Y. The goal is enticing Y pax to buy-up, not cannibalizing J pax to buy-down.

cloudboy · Wed Dec 09, 2015 3:41 pm

I think we are seeing the start of true broadening of product offerings. I think some people simply want a little extra leg room, some want a little more seat width, some are more concerned with aisle access and flat beds. So airlines are figuring out they need to offer these products at the prices travelers are willing to pay for them.

It will have broad implications for FF programs, but I think they are going to be totally rewritten over the next few years. The change to spend-based programs was really a stepping stone. I think the whole idea is going to be rethought - instead of an incentive program it is going to become an awards program, I think the whole idea of both elite levels and upgrade will change - it will become a points based offering and you spend points based on a formula governed by fare classes you usually purchase.

SonomaFlyer · Wed Dec 09, 2015 3:42 pm

Glad to see a U.S. based carrier finally take this step. It was amazing they waited this long but this should shove the big three into offering W class.

jetblue1965 · Wed Dec 09, 2015 3:46 pm

Quoting cloudboy (Reply 27):
I think the whole idea is going to be rethought - instead of an incentive program it is going to become an awards program

In "incentive program" would deliver out-sized rewards for those exhibiting loyalty. If both earn and burn become revenue-based (the trend of the future), it would become a straight up rebate program.

For example, WN earns 6 points per dollar on base WGA fares and costs 70 points per dollar to redeem. That translates to a straight up 7.2% rebate with no arbitrage to be found.

carljanderson · Wed Dec 09, 2015 3:47 pm

Will DL now move up their announcement to Dec. 17 on Investor Day, or were they planning on announcing it then anyway?

(We all know DL is planning this after the different class for Comfort Plus).

CPDC10-30 · Wed Dec 09, 2015 3:48 pm

Quoting ckfred (Reply 25):
So, Y+ is aimed at the business traveler who can't get approval to fly J on an expense account.

I wish my company was that generous. We can only fly Y no matter how long the flight (did LHR-HKG-AKL and LHR-SIN-SYD-AKL a few times last year). The main draw for me to AA over BA for transatlantic is the certainty of at least getting a MCE seat, which is not amazing but still way more comfortable than normal Y. I imagine many others are in the same boat. In fact I fly LHR-DFW-SJC rather than nonstop LHR-SFO because of this. I'm not the most valuable airline passenger in the world, but I still spend about $20k per year.

AA will need to be careful otherwise people in this bucket will start trying other options.

AA100 · Wed Dec 09, 2015 3:51 pm

Very smart move. PEY will soon be a global standard for long-haul travel. Asian carriers are picking up on it, European carriers continue to expand it, and now AA. I have no doubt that an ME3 will do it (if anything so as to stand out from the other two ME3).. and because otherwise if it becomes more standard... they will completely lose out in this market segment.

Congratulations to AA! Another first for an American carrier. This will work really well for them and align them better with critical partners: QF, BA, and JL as well as CX.

I have no doubt that DL will follow suit soon enough, particularly as their partner AF has the product, but also because VS has it and it will allow DL/VS to sell PEY on all transatlantic flights to London.

UA will likely be last to the party...

YYZFAN · Wed Dec 09, 2015 3:56 pm

This is an excellent idea. AA needed a true W cabin on it's long haul flights. MCE doesn't cut it on a 16hr flight to HKG. This appears to be a very competitive product, and should grab a lot of business travellers that can't book J.

Finally a US carrier is adding a proper offering like this. This will truly place them on more even footing with Euro and Asian carriers, and bridge the gap between J and Y on long haul flights (which is usually a 3-5 price multiple).

jetblue1965 · Wed Dec 09, 2015 3:58 pm

Quoting AA100 (Reply 32):

It also somewhat depends on how they allow elites to access it - comped, discounted, or neither.

If your corporation only allows regular Y and not even PEY, but you're elite, the choice on a 12 hr TATL flight might be :

AA $1000 Y 31"
AA $1000 Y, and you pay $500-700 extra out-of-pocket to self-upgrade to PEY 38"
UA $1000 Y+ 35-36"

Matt6461 · Wed Dec 09, 2015 4:14 pm

Quote:
The 777-300ER will feature First Class, Business Class, Premium Economy, Main Cabin Extra and Main Cabin seating options for customers.

Will this be the first five class layout in aviation history?

KarelXWB · Wed Dec 09, 2015 4:16 pm

Quoting Matt6461 (Reply 35):
Will this be the first five class layout in aviation history?

I wouldn't call Main Cabin Extra a class on its own.

jetblue1965 · Wed Dec 09, 2015 4:17 pm

Quoting Matt6461 (Reply 35):

Quote:
The 777-300ER will feature First Class, Business Class, Premium Economy, Main Cabin Extra and Main Cabin seating options for customers.

Will this be the first five class layout in aviation history?

To be technically clear, I would call this "4 class 5 section". I can't trace back to the propeller days or what not, but it's very likely the first 5 section layout anytime in the past 30 years.

cageyjames · Wed Dec 09, 2015 4:22 pm

Nothing about the A359 in that press release. I suppose it is still "far off"....

Matt6461 · Wed Dec 09, 2015 4:23 pm

Quoting KarelXWB (Reply 36):
I wouldn't call Main Cabin Extra a class on its own.

Quoting KarelXWB (Reply 36):
To be technically clear, I would call this "4 class 5 section". I can't trace back to the propeller days or what not, but it's very likely the first 5 section layout anytime in the past 30 years.

Ok maybe technically not a class, if there's a technical definition of a class... I'll take first 5-section layout, still a milestone.

IMO basic Y will evolve increasingly toward LCC standards, allowing legacies to compete on price against DY and its ilk while retaining higher-yielding traffic.

Airbus' Kieran Rao made a presentation at Airbus Customer Days (or whatever it's called) predicting that Y cabin product differentiation is the future of airline profitability. I think he's right and this is only the beginning. Maybe some day (probably in a 777-9 or A380) we'll see six-section:

F, J, PEY, Y+, Y, Y- (DY-style LCC fare with fees for bags, food, etc.)

masseybrown · Wed Dec 09, 2015 4:24 pm

Great idea. It's about time.

Curiousflyer · Wed Dec 09, 2015 4:26 pm

Quoting Matt6461 (Reply 35):

Five sections.
Well already on an AF 380 for example, you have four classes and the upstairs Y cabin is sort-of more exclusive...

But overall, yes, I cannot think of another plane wih 5 sections.

This is a good way to segment the market and goes along unbundling. If you are poor or cheap, you won't get as much as those who can or want pay a few hundreds more for a better product but cannot afford to pay thousands. Those people exist, I am one of them.

Glad the US airlines finally noticed and won't just offer a poor "Main Cabin Extra" or "Comfort Plus" product.

Polot · Wed Dec 09, 2015 4:27 pm

The question is how long F class will last on the 77W. I'm guessing it won't live to see a new generation of seats. With natural progression the next J will be pushed a little more upmarket/nicer, as will PE squeezing out F on the planes.

jetblue1965 · Wed Dec 09, 2015 4:27 pm

Quoting Matt6461 (Reply 39):

F, J, PEY, Y+, Y, Y- (DY-style LCC fare with fees for bags, food, etc.)

They don't need to separate out Y- from Y. Just create a single lowest fare bucket (like DL basic "E" fares) and strip out all benefits, making all items a la carte add-on and ancillary.

I'm still curious if Y+ really has a place in this new hierarchy. I don't recall any other global airline that attempts to sell both PEY and Y+ on the same flight, until now.

Matt6461 · Wed Dec 09, 2015 4:32 pm

Quoting jetblue1965 (Reply 43):
They don't need to separate out Y- from Y. Just create a single lowest fare bucket (like DL basic "E" fares) and strip out all benefits, making all items a la carte add-on and ancillary.

Maybe not. I'm thinking from a branding perspective, though, that airlines might want to fence off the really low-end product from baseline Y. SQ, for example, could sell Scoot/Tigerair-branded tickets that fly at the back of mainline. Maybe even put differently-uniformed cabin staff back there to really drive the point home and preserve the mainline brand. With SQ/Scoot/Tigerair transitioning to a unitary corporate structure, maybe that would work. Just an idea...

Quoting jetblue1965 (Reply 43):
I'm still curious if Y+ really has a place in this new hierarchy. I don't recall any other global airline that attempts to sell both PEY and Y+ on the same flight, until now.

I don't either - thus the first 5-section/class offering. IMO Kieran Rao is right; this is the future.

global1 · Wed Dec 09, 2015 4:42 pm

Good move AA

I expect DL to follow suit.

It is 'back to the future'. J is the new First, premium Y is the new J.

This just brings the airlines closer to letting you customize your travel. Want basic, no frills? Perhaps standard coach. Want a few extra inches? How about a wider seat better meals? Or go all the way with beds, duvets,etc ..,,

The choice is yours. Pay for what you choose.

afcjets · Wed Dec 09, 2015 4:45 pm

This will be the only cabin that has leather seats (assuming they redo the entire A330 cabin), it looks way better than their cloth seats in F and J.

tlecam · Wed Dec 09, 2015 4:47 pm

Quoting jetblue1965 (Reply 26):

The risk, real or perceived, is that corporate clients will start forcing their mid-level folks to fly PE instead of true J. It would be curious to see if this risk actually materializes or not.

My bet is that they will.

I'm also looking forward to the eventual re-branding to First, Business and Economy.

KarelXWB · Wed Dec 09, 2015 4:48 pm

Quoting Matt6461 (Reply 44):
I don't either - thus the first 5-section/class offering. IMO Kieran Rao is right; this is the future.

It's difficult to draw a conclusion based on a single airline.

I'd wait a few years before making such conclusion.

777ord · Wed Dec 09, 2015 5:01 pm

I can't wait to see it used. It'll really put the other US Carriers to shame in terms of product offerings.

Expect more great announcements to come, soon.

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