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jetblue1965
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RE: American Announces New Int'l Prem Econ Cabin

Wed Dec 09, 2015 5:17 pm

Quoting 777ord (Reply 49):
I can't wait to see it used. It'll really put the other US Carriers to shame in terms of product offerings.

Not trying to pour cold water on a nice announcement, but for PEY, pricing balance is crucial. If it's 200% price of regular Y, few would bite the bullet. On a 4-class 77W, ANA puts 24 PEY while CX puts 34. I would not expect AA to stray too far from that.
 
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Matt6461
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RE: American Announces New Int'l Prem Econ Cabin

Wed Dec 09, 2015 5:19 pm

Quoting KarelXWB (Reply 48):
It's difficult to draw a conclusion based on a single airline.

I'd wait a few years before making such conclusion.

I'm not drawing a conclusion so much as making a prediction. Not with perfect confidence of course, not offering a bet on this or anything.

But I'd note that US airlines have proved themselves best at revenue management strategies - at least over the last 5 years or so. If AA is making this move - it's not cheap - it's based on deep, sophisticated, long-term analysis stemming from their proprietary yield management software and other analysis. I'm inclined to believe they're likely to be right.
 
YYZAMS
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RE: American Announces New Int'l Prem Econ Cabin

Wed Dec 09, 2015 5:21 pm

Looks boxy and cramped. Of course they show the bulkhead (or what seems to be bulkhead..the first row looks spacious) but trying to climb over someone looks painful.
 
ckfred
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RE: American Announces New Int'l Prem Econ Cabin

Wed Dec 09, 2015 5:52 pm

Quoting YYZAMS (Reply 52):
Looks boxy and cramped. Of course they show the bulkhead (or what seems to be bulkhead..the first row looks spacious) but trying to climb over someone looks painful.

I was on the aisle, middle section of Y+ this summer on a BA 773. The person next to me was able to get in and out without my having to stand up, but I was able to turn towards the aisle, and he was kind of skinny.

On the other hand, on an AA 738 in F, I definitely had to stand up to let the woman in the window seat out. She was a bit on the heavy side, and she just wouldn't have been able to get between me and the seatback in front of me.
 
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northwestEWR
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RE: American Announces New Int'l Prem Econ Cabin

Wed Dec 09, 2015 6:49 pm

Delta has been working on something similar for quite some time. Announcement expected in 1H 2016.

Very cool to see AA working on new products. It should do well for them.
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USAirALB
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RE: American Announces New Int'l Prem Econ Cabin

Wed Dec 09, 2015 6:58 pm

Looks nice, but I worry about a continued downgrade of service in Y in order to push people to buy Premium Y.

I knew AA would probably announce Premium Y soon, but I am surprised they beat DL.

Quoting cageyjames (Reply 38):
Nothing about the A359 in that press release. I suppose it is still "far off"....

The press release says that it will be added to the A350.
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Osubuckeyes
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RE: American Announces New Int'l Prem Econ Cabin

Wed Dec 09, 2015 7:11 pm

Interesting that they are leaving the MCE portion in. I wonder if there is a concern that having such a segmented product is inefficient in the grand scheme.

I also find it interesting that this seems to be a contrast from DL who is moving in the direction of just making Y+ into their PE product, which many have viewed as a significant negative. It seems like AA is content maintaining the status quo with MCE for now domestically and internationally.

Quoting jetblue1965 (Reply 43):
They don't need to separate out Y- from Y. Just create a single lowest fare bucket (like DL basic "E" fares) and strip out all benefits, making all items a la carte add-on and ancillary.

Even the ULCCs product is better than the DL E fares though. DL doesn't let you add anything into your E fare, while NK/DY/F9 etc... allow you to pick and choose what you want. IF ultimate consumer experience is picking and choosing what you want then build your own experience is far superior than choose 1 of 5 sections.
 
jetblue1965
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RE: American Announces New Int'l Prem Econ Cabin

Wed Dec 09, 2015 7:18 pm

Quoting osubuckeyes (Reply 56):

Even the ULCCs product is better than the DL E fares though. DL doesn't let you add anything into your E fare, while NK/DY/F9 etc... allow you to pick and choose what you want. IF ultimate consumer experience is picking and choosing what you want then build your own experience is far superior than choose 1 of 5 sections.

I agree DL E is a bit restrictive. The better approach is ULCC prices and ULCC level benefits/experience, but with more items allowed to be purchased a la carte is necessary.

At the same time, certain elites should have discounts or waivers. Right now DL tells their Diamonds, who pay MQD $12000 plus either miles or segments, that they're entitled to very little of what their status entails. That's just hard to stomach.
 
cloudboy
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RE: American Announces New Int'l Prem Econ Cabin

Wed Dec 09, 2015 7:48 pm

the question is - will they start some kind of PE product domestically?
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cageyjames
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RE: American Announces New Int'l Prem Econ Cabin

Wed Dec 09, 2015 7:48 pm

Quoting USAirALB (Reply 55):
The press release says that it will be added to the A350.

I must have had my finger on that part.   
 
Flighty
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RE: American Announces New Int'l Prem Econ Cabin

Wed Dec 09, 2015 8:10 pm

Quoting tlecam (Reply 47):
My bet is that they will.I'm also looking forward to the eventual re-branding to First, Business and Economy.

This is a common progression. For example, yesterday, Honda Civic was a tiny car. Now it is a midsize car about as roomy as "large" cars were 30 years ago. Now the Accord is as large as a limousine or a blimp.

People get older and richer, so you have to humor them that they are different from the last generation, even though they're not.
 
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Polot
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RE: American Announces New Int'l Prem Econ Cabin

Wed Dec 09, 2015 8:13 pm

Quoting cloudboy (Reply 58):
the question is - will they start some kind of PE product domestically?

Yes, it is called Main Cabin Extra  

The international PE looks equivalent to domestic First in terms of hard product. There is not a large enough hard product difference between domestic First and Economy to introduce a new cabin. Y+ like MCE is good enough.
 
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Miami
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RE: American Announces New Int'l Prem Econ Cabin

Wed Dec 09, 2015 8:15 pm

Count me in. It looks very nice. I will definitely try it out.

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jetblue1965
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RE: American Announces New Int'l Prem Econ Cabin

Wed Dec 09, 2015 8:16 pm

Quoting cloudboy (Reply 58):
the question is - will they start some kind of PE product domestically?

Even if so, I would expect it to be limited to select routes of longer sector lengths or higher yields, e.g. the premium transcons.

Globally, few legacy carriers have found success in a PE product for flights shorter than 5 hours. Earlier this year, CX had to axe PE from routes to India and Middle East because the cabin became a Y-overflow that isn't commanding the necessary RASM premium - and some of those routes are far longer than most lower48 domestic flights in the US.

And if you think about it, domestic F on the legacies is basically the same as long-haul PE already.
 
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RE: American Announces New Int'l Prem Econ Cabin

Wed Dec 09, 2015 8:29 pm

Looks good, for the leisure traveller it's all about the price though.

My company's transatlantic travel policy is C for overnight flights and Y+ for daytime flights, so up to now that's meant a choice of BA or VS for the destinations we go to. Nice to see AA joining the party!
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ckfred
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RE: American Announces New Int'l Prem Econ Cabin

Wed Dec 09, 2015 8:40 pm

Quoting Miami (Reply 62):
Count me in. It looks very nice. I will definitely try it out.

BA only offers a footrest, attached to the seat in front, for it's prem. econ. So, the AA seat is definitely a better seat.
 
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DocLightning
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RE: American Announces New Int'l Prem Econ Cabin

Wed Dec 09, 2015 8:45 pm

Quoting einsteinboricua (Reply 1):
In other words, business class is back in all except name. Call it a business class lite if you will...too premium to be Main Cabin but too inferior to be a true business class.

Correct. "Business" drifted up until it basically became a First Class product with lie-flat seats and private "suites." "First" became an ultra-luxury product so expensive that only a few airlines continue to offer it and even then only on select flights. So in the last decade or two we've seen this segmentation where there is no middle product. A J ticket costs 5x what a Y ticket costs and there is no intermediate product. The European and some of the Asian carriers have figured out that there is a small market of upper-middle-class passengers who want something more than Y without having to shell out for J.

I'm glad to see a US carrier coming to the same conclusion.

Quoting jetblue1965 (Reply 63):
Globally, few legacy carriers have found success in a PE product for flights shorter than 5 hours. Earlier this year, CX had to axe PE from routes to India and Middle East because the cabin became a Y-overflow that isn't commanding the necessary RASM premium - and some of those routes are far longer than most lower48 domestic flights in the US.

Exactly. For the same reason they don't offer lie-flat suites in F for domestic flights (other than premium transcons) they won't offer this product for the same routes. I'm willing to pay twice the price for the comfort and convenience (you get priority security and lounge access with some Premium-Y classes) on long-haul flights over 8-10 hours, but not on shorter flights.

Quoting AirbusA6 (Reply 64):

Looks good, for the leisure traveller it's all about the price though.

For MOST leisure travelers, but not all. Some (like me) are well-to-do enough to be able to afford Prem-Y but not enough to afford J/F. And that's why they're only going to have 2-3 rows on each aircraft. When you think about it, each PY passenger takes about 150% of the cabin space of a regular Y passenger at 200% of the revenue. Jazz up the meal selection a bit and offer priority security access and lounge access, both of which cost relatively little per passenger, and this is actually a very sensible offering for a major airline with many long-haul routes to offer.

They say they will be offering it on the A330, 777s, and 787s but not the 767 as those will be retired.

I wonder if they will order the A321LR (yeah, I opened that can of worms; deal with it) and if so if they will offer this product on that aircraft. I'm guessing it would have to be 2+2 seating on that type.

I'd totally use this product except I live in SFO and so I have no AA long-haul flights to choose from. However, when traveling long-haul, I will purchase premium-Y if it's offered. If I have a choice between two or more airlines and one offers premium-Y and the other doesn't, I'm going with the one that does.
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RE: American Announces New Int'l Prem Econ Cabin

Wed Dec 09, 2015 9:10 pm

Quoting ckfred (Reply 65):
BA only offers a footrest, attached to the seat in front, for it's prem. econ. So, the AA seat is definitely a better seat.

Actually it looks like the extended footrest in that photo applies only to bulkhead seats. If you go to AA's site and take the virtual tour, you'll see the rest of the seats have the footrest attached to the seat in front.
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Flighty
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RE: American Announces New Int'l Prem Econ Cabin

Wed Dec 09, 2015 9:12 pm

Quoting OA412 (Reply 67):
Actually it looks like the extended footrest in that photo applies only to bulkhead seats. If you go to AA's site and take the virtual tour, you'll see the rest of the seats have the footrest attached to the seat in front.

Really? That's why it is so insane to show bulkhead seats as if it represents the product. It neverrrr doesssss.
 
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Coal
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RE: American Announces New Int'l Prem Econ Cabin

Wed Dec 09, 2015 11:31 pm

http://thedesignair.net/2015/12/09/a...national-standard-premium-economy/

Didn't see a link to The Designair. They have a few more pics.
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AAlaxfan
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RE: American Announces New Int'l Prem Econ Cabin

Thu Dec 10, 2015 2:32 am

Quoting OA412 (Reply 67):
Actually it looks like the extended footrest in that photo applies only to bulkhead seats. If you go to AA's site and take the virtual tour, you'll see the rest of the seats have the footrest attached to the seat in front.

If it's the same seat in all rows, then the electronic footrest extension should be available for all seats when the seat reclines. I think the seat-back movable footrests will only be available for all seats except bulkhead.
My favorite airport is the one I'm flying to! :airplane:
 
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CARST
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RE: American Announces New Int'l Prem Econ Cabin

Thu Dec 10, 2015 6:43 am

Quoting einsteinboricua (Reply 1):
In other words, business class is back in all except name. Call it a business class lite if you will...too premium to be Main Cabin but too inferior to be a true business class.
Quoting DocLightning (Reply 66):
Correct. "Business" drifted up until it basically became a First Class product with lie-flat seats and private "suites." "First" became an ultra-luxury product so expensive that only a few airlines continue to offer it and even then only on select flights. So in the last decade or two we've seen this segmentation where there is no middle product. A J ticket costs 5x what a Y ticket costs and there is no intermediate product. The European and some of the Asian carriers have figured out that there is a small market of upper-middle-class passengers who want something more than Y without having to shell out for J.

While I agree with you guys, we also have to say that Y got downgraded continuously over the last 1.5 decades. Okay, we in the back got AVOD, but seat pitch, width and thickness got reduced over and over again. So the middle segment of the market wasn't only open because J moved up to F standards, but Y moved down to a level only known from charter airlines in the 80s and 90s. So good to see MCE-like products and PE/Y+ filling this open market segment and giving the customer more choices.
 
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Matt6461
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RE: American Announces New Int'l Prem Econ Cabin

Thu Dec 10, 2015 8:19 am

Quoting CARST (Reply 71):
we also have to say that Y got downgraded continuously over the last 1.5 decades.
Quoting CARST (Reply 71):
So good to see MCE-like products and PE/Y+ filling this open market segment and giving the customer more choices.

At a really abstract level, I want to propose a theory for why this happened and for why the future will be in product differentiation below J. Maybe this is all obvious but just want to lay it out.

Over the past several decades, airplane design, airline management, and deregulation/liberalization have created significant efficiency gains for the industry. http://www.theatlantic.com/business/...ars-and-why-nobody-noticed/273506/

I want to suggest that it's these efficiency gains driving the changes, not simply a renaming/rebranding of the old categories.

As an industry gets more efficient, its firms can compete on two main strategies:

-Increased product quality
-Lower price

Per AA, about half of their revenue comes from price-sensitive passengers, the other half, obviously... http://centreforaviation.com/analysi...competitive-dynamics-unfold-255823 Surely the world's largest airline is representative of the broader industry.

F/J represents the less price-sensitive crowd, Y the more price-sensitive crowd.

Thus airlines competed for F/J by plowing efficiency gains into space and service. Competing on price would win fewer price-insensitive customers at greater cost than competing on product.

In the Y cabin, airlines plowed efficiency gains into prices. Price pressure democratized air travel, enticing lower-income demographics into the field, which further reinforced the dominance of price-sensitivity to market share. A virtuous or vicious cycle, depending on who you are.

This was the rational strategy while the traditional F/J/Y market structure held: F/J innovations built up to occupy increasing cabin area, Y seats to occupy decreasing cabin area, until the yield per m2, roughly, was equal across classes. Now that J occupies ~4x Y-pax cabin area, and sells for ~4x Y-tickets, the period of J product innovation relative to baseline Y is likely closing. With J coalescing around 1-2-1 @ ~50" and Y at 3-4-3 or 3-3-3 @ ~31", further large divergence likely doesn't make sense.

The divergence in premium versus Y prices, however, meant that airlines were leaving increasing numbers of mutually beneficial trades on the table, and that the dollar value of those trades continually rose. $400 for 15% more pitch on a 12-hour flight? Lots of Y-pax would take that deal (some airline's cabin layouts predict up to 40%), and it's a great deal for airlines per cabin m2. But it wasn't available until sort of recently.

Now innovation will turn towards the unrealized Pareto-optimal exchanges between airlines and pax who got stranded between cheaper, nastier Y and continually nicer - but still too expensive - J. Airlines will put some of their historical efficiency gains into meeting some Y/J pax halfway - offering a little better service at a little more price. Now that J and Y are more aligned from a yield/cost per m2 perspective, it doesn't especially matter if some J bumps down a class or if all the demand comes from Y.

So I don't see this solely as a trend of renaming "F/J/Y" to "J/W/Y." Instead, it's the overdue structural adjustment of an industry whose efficiency gains have allowed it to serve a much broader and more diverse customer base with more targeted, preference-discriminating products. The old stiff categories stretched downwards with efficiency to attract new business, and upwards with efficiency to keep existing business. But now the categories don't fit well enough and they're changing.

[Edited 2015-12-10 00:21:31]
 
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KarelXWB
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RE: American Announces New Int'l Prem Econ Cabin

Thu Dec 10, 2015 9:13 am

Quoting Matt6461 (Reply 51):
But I'd note that US airlines have proved themselves best at revenue management strategies - at least over the last 5 years or so. If AA is making this move - it's not cheap - it's based on deep, sophisticated, long-term analysis stemming from their proprietary yield management software and other analysis. I'm inclined to believe they're likely to be right.

I understand, but even the latest software cannot predict the future. If the market goes another direction in the next ~ five to ten years, AA will have to come up with another cabin.

So I'm sitting on the fence.

[Edited 2015-12-10 01:24:58]
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CARST
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RE: American Announces New Int'l Prem Econ Cabin

Thu Dec 10, 2015 9:24 am

Quoting Matt6461 (Reply 72):

Matt, that very nicely sums up th evolution in this industry of the last 20-30 years, but I want to add a few details:

Quoting Matt6461 (Reply 72):
Over the past several decades, airplane design, airline management, and deregulation/liberalization have created significant efficiency gains for the industry.

Sure, in the long-run deregulation led to efficiency gains, but these were only achieved because airlines felt the need to work more efficient. Airfares were on a bottomless drop by increased competition and new airlines and the first LCCs. So the pre-deregulation airlines had to adjust and work more efficient or they went bust like PanAm, TWA and Eastern and a lot of other airlines in Europe at a later point (within the last 25 years), too.

So the efficiency gains were driven by lower incomes of the airline from Y class tickets.

Quoting Matt6461 (Reply 72):
But now the categories don't fit well enough and they're changing.

   That is to what it all boils down to. Just bad to the customer that some airlines are only realising this now and not way earlier. To many years have gone by with my knees rubbing on the seat-back of the seat in front of me.
 
r2rho
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RE: American Announces New Int'l Prem Econ Cabin

Thu Dec 10, 2015 9:38 am

Good to see that Economy Plus (Main Cabin Extra) seems to be remaining, and that this so-called Premium Eco (in reality a Business Minus) is not subsituting it. They are two very different products catering to different segments: one for people flying on their own money and wanting to have a bit more comfort, the other for business travelers whose company policy does not allow to book J tickets.

So AA will have one of the most segmented cabin offerings available, with up to 5 products depending on a/c:
F / J / J- (Premium Eco) / Y+ (MCE) / Y-
 
r2rho
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RE: American Announces New Int'l Prem Econ Cabin

Thu Dec 10, 2015 9:59 am

Quoting jfk777 (Reply 14):
IS the Y+ cabin coing out of the J class sections ?

It's not Y+, it's PE, or J- if you prefer. And IMO it should come out of the J section, since that is the product it cannibalizes on.

Quoting jetblue1965 (Reply 43):
I'm still curious if Y+ really has a place in this new hierarchy. I don't recall any other global airline that attempts to sell both PEY and Y+ on the same flight, until now.

I believe it very much has a place, since as I posted above, Y+ and PE cater to different customers. AA is the first airline going down this path and it will be interesting to see how they do. Personally I hope and think they will do well. More choice is definitely welcome.
 
oc2dc
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RE: American Announces New Int'l Prem Econ Cabin

Thu Dec 10, 2015 9:29 pm

It's fantastic to see AA once again competing and leading the way in the U.S. part of the industry. Hard to imagine we could see an AA like this just 10 years ago.

Quoting Sightseer (Reply 5):
Reminds me of domestic first, in a good way.

The only addition would be the footrest. That footrest is incredibly necessary, it's the only thing missing from the new F domestic cabin on AA.
I'm not complaining, I'm critiquing...
 
jetblue1965
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RE: American Announces New Int'l Prem Econ Cabin

Thu Dec 10, 2015 9:41 pm

Quoting r2rho (Reply 76):

I believe it very much has a place, since as I posted above, Y+ and PE cater to different customers. AA is the first airline going down this path and it will be interesting to see how they do. Personally I hope and think they will do well. More choice is definitely welcome.

If they succeed, more power to them. IIRC, they'll be the first legacy in recent times to try both PE and Y+ in the same plane (and not as some LCC subsidiary/spin-off)

Choice is actually only good up to a certain point. When you present consumers with too much choice, it may end up with self-cannibalization instead of triggering the intended up-sell effects.
 
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Matt6461
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RE: American Announces New Int'l Prem Econ Cabin

Thu Dec 10, 2015 10:28 pm

Quoting CARST (Reply 74):

So the efficiency gains were driven by lower incomes of the airline from Y class tickets.

Right - competitive pressure. Expose an industry to greater competitive pressure and it's forced to be more efficient. It took a long time for U.S. airlines, at least, to figure out how to compete profitably. But in the long run it's been great.

I do think the other part of this story is aircraft efficiency. Including - at least in the narrowbody field - upgauging and attendant economies of scale. In the widebody field nominal seat counts have remained the same but I bet average cabin size by m2 has actually increased. Haven't run the numbers on that.

Quoting KarelXWB (Reply 73):
I understand, but even the latest software cannot predict the future. If the market goes another direction in the next ~ five to ten years, AA will have to come up with another cabin.

There will surely be other cabin configurations as the airlines try to best offer defined products that best match preference with willingness to pay. I'd expect a lot of flux over the next decade while airlines experiment until they get it (more) right.

The other piece of this puzzle, imo, is the internet - specifically the greater product information it allows. Seat categories provide customers with cheap information on what they're buying. Now that they look up cabin pictures and pitch/width stats online, the utility of rigid categories is somewhat decreased. Of course a lot of the public is still unwilling/unable to google cabin pictures while making a decision, but the trend is towards more information.
 
FlyASAGuy2005
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RE: American Announces New Int'l Prem Econ Cabin

Fri Dec 11, 2015 1:52 am

This is pretty genius. It's apparent AA has been working on this for quite a while but since DL hinted on a similar product, they went ahead and released.

Take a domestic F seat and put it on an international wide body. Also offer domestic F food. Cost should be minimal but the upcharge quite significant. I guess they have figured the extra revenue they will make far outweighs the more space being taken up by the seats vs regular Y seating.
What gets measured gets done.
 
etops1
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RE: American Announces New Int'l Prem Econ Cabin

Fri Dec 11, 2015 2:51 am

Quoting northwestEWR (Reply 54):

Delta will announce next week ..
 
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AAlaxfan
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RE: American Announces New Int'l Prem Econ Cabin

Fri Dec 11, 2015 3:26 am

Quoting etops1 (Reply 81):
Quoting northwestEWR (Reply 54):

Delta will announce next week ..

And it will be 1000x better than anything else in the sky because.....Delta.         
My favorite airport is the one I'm flying to! :airplane:
 
incitatus
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RE: American Announces New Int'l Prem Econ Cabin

Fri Dec 11, 2015 3:40 am

Quoting Matt6461 (Reply 79):
The other piece of this puzzle, imo, is the internet -

In addition to the factors you mentioned, changes in travel policies by corporations are also a driver. Especially over recessions, corporations squeeze travel budgets by restricting higher-priced cabin access. If that did not happen, what we have as Business Class today would be called First Class.
I do not consume Murdoch products including the Wall Street Journal
 
DDR
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RE: American Announces New Int'l Prem Econ Cabin

Fri Dec 11, 2015 4:36 am

Once again AA leads the way.
 
FlyASAGuy2005
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RE: American Announces New Int'l Prem Econ Cabin

Sun Dec 13, 2015 2:20 pm

Quoting DDR (Reply 84):

My only gripe with AA is the food. I can't really tell much of a difference between C and J.
What gets measured gets done.
 
jacobin777
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RE: American Announces New Int'l Prem Econ Cabin

Sun Dec 13, 2015 6:56 pm

Quoting cageyjames (Reply 38):
Nothing about the A359 in that press release. I suppose it is still "far off"....

Actually there was:

"Premium Economy will also be installed on the Airbus A350, which arrives in 2017."

http://finance.yahoo.com/news/americ...s-innovation-launch-140000710.html
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Cargo Aircraft Pictures of great freighter aircraft

Government Aircraft Aircraft flying government officials

Helicopters Our large helicopter section. Both military and civil versions

Blimps / Airships Everything from the Goodyear blimp to the Zeppelin

Night Photos Beautiful shots taken while the sun is below the horizon

Accidents Accident, incident and crash related photos

Air to Air Photos taken by airborne photographers of airborne aircraft

Special Paint Schemes Aircraft painted in beautiful and original liveries

Airport Overviews Airport overviews from the air or ground

Tails and Winglets Tail and Winglet closeups with beautiful airline logos