panam330
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UA To Leave DXB

Wed Dec 09, 2015 2:55 pm

Following DL's lead, I suppose. The last flight will be 23Jan2016. It's a shame, only in the broader sense that, apart from TLV, UA has slashed all its Middle East service in a matter of months.
 
hohd
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RE: UA To Leave DXB

Wed Dec 09, 2015 3:02 pm

If it is true that is big setback. I thought UA could sustain this flight since it is from IAD with govt traffic. Reason could be oil or withdrawal of troops from Afghanistan.

Anyway UA never competes very well, at the first sign of a downturn it cuts flights.
 
tsnamm
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RE: UA To Leave DXB

Wed Dec 09, 2015 3:03 pm

Interesting that only the sCO destinations remain, and all the sUA destinations have been cut. From what I've heard DXB was a very profitable destination both passenger and cargo/mail. More service being cut from IAD  
 
phillyramp270
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RE: UA To Leave DXB

Wed Dec 09, 2015 3:05 pm

Blame Isis (please don't turn this into Muslim bashing) I take it that since it's not safe to fly through Syria airspace and all the tensions between Russia and NATO the risks and yields are probably not worth continuing the flight

Then there's the old Superior A380 product argument

[Edited 2015-12-09 07:09:50]
Barack Obama is not a foreign born, brown skinned, anti-war socialist who gives away healthcare. You're thinking of Jesu
 
tsnamm
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RE: UA To Leave DXB

Wed Dec 09, 2015 3:10 pm

They've had to reroute the flight away from dangerous airspace which has had a negative impact on time arrivals, and payload impact with the need for extra fuel. Word has it the government travel contract was lost as well.
 
MaverickM11
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RE: UA To Leave DXB

Wed Dec 09, 2015 3:15 pm

Quoting phillyramp270 (Reply 3):
Then there's the old Superior A380 product argument

That's definitely not it. That's never the reason.

Quoting hohd (Reply 1):
If it is true that is big setback. I thought UA could sustain this flight since it is from IAD with govt traffic. Reason could be oil or withdrawal of troops from Afghanistan.

  That plus I suspect at AA/DL/UA's current levels of profitability, the bar for marginal routes is much higher.
E pur si muove -Galileo
 
SpaceshipDC10
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RE: UA To Leave DXB

Wed Dec 09, 2015 3:19 pm

Quoting phillyramp270 (Reply 3):
I take it that since it's not safe to fly through Syria airspace

Do they actually fly through Syria airspace? I ask because I've seen flights from other airlines routing further south and even flying around the south end of Israel.
 
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OA412
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RE: UA To Leave DXB

Wed Dec 09, 2015 3:22 pm

Quoting phillyramp270 (Reply 3):
Blame Isis (please don't turn this into Muslim bashing) I take it that since it's not safe to fly through Syria airspace and all the tensions between Russia and NATO the risks and yields are probably not worth continuing the flight

I really don't think that's the reason. Syria's not that big, and having to divert around it is not going to add that much time to the flight. In fact, the great circle routing IAD-DXB doesn't even bypass Syria.
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777ord
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RE: UA To Leave DXB

Wed Dec 09, 2015 3:27 pm

When I worked for UA. This route was always packed. I never saw it empty and spent a few days waiting to get out of DXB. However, that does not mean it made money.

Their decision to pull out of DXB is interesting. I doubt that ISIS is impacting them as we have own our domestic ISIS problems. So, I'd like to know officially why they are pulling out.
 
skymiler
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RE: UA To Leave DXB

Wed Dec 09, 2015 3:27 pm

I few ATL - DXB - ATL earlier this year and we stayed VERY clear of hot zones, which did add distance and time to the flight.
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fun2fly
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RE: UA To Leave DXB

Wed Dec 09, 2015 3:46 pm

I would have thought that the B789 would have given this route additional life. Oh well.
 
jetblue1965
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RE: UA To Leave DXB

Wed Dec 09, 2015 3:51 pm

Quoting skymiler (Reply 9):
I few ATL - DXB - ATL earlier this year and we stayed VERY clear of hot zones, which did add distance and time to the flight.

It's adding a lot. The flight has to avoid Iran, Iraq, Syria, and Ukraine. A 7060mi flight is nearly 7600mi all of a sudden. Add the fact that the alternative routing is much more southerly and in the way of headwinds, which makes the ESAD increase even worse.

Oh well, this sucks, but life goes on.
 
jayunited
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RE: UA To Leave DXB

Wed Dec 09, 2015 4:11 pm

Quoting tsnamm (Reply 4):
They've had to reroute the flight away from dangerous airspace which has had a negative impact on time arrivals, and payload impact with the need for extra fuel. Word has it the government travel contract was lost as well.

Exactly ever since the disaster in Egypt UA has been rerouting flights to/from the Middle East resulting in a stage length that is much longer that the norm. Flights are no longer able to accommodate any freight and because UA is going with max fuel in both directions. When you combine this with the fact that UA stated on Flying Together that starting next year B6 will have the contract to fly over 15,000 yearly government workers, troops, contractors to DXB UA has come to the conclusion that it's time to leave DXB and look for opportunities elsewhere. However UA did note on Flying Together that B6 will not be flying those 15,000 plus yearly government employees EK will because EK has a partnership with B6 it is the same thing that happened with UA's DOH tag on. AA has the contract but QR is actually the airline government employees are flying on. UA stated they disagree with the GSA's announcement to basically hand EK the contract but just like DL UA seems ready to just move on and put this whole saga behind them.

I've said before and I'll say it again if the US3 what to fight back against the ME3 they then need to find a way to offer nonstop service at a competitive price point between the US and India. The Indian population in this country continues to grow every year and yet between the US3 there is only 2 nonstop flights between the US and India. The ME3 in my opinion are only meeting demand for travel between the US and the Middle East but also between the US and India and Africa but the US3 continue to ignore India but more importantly they continue to ignore a growing population here in America.
 
jetblue1965
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RE: UA To Leave DXB

Wed Dec 09, 2015 4:15 pm

Quoting jayunited (Reply 12):

I've said before and I'll say it again if the US3 what to fight back against the ME3 they then need to find a way to offer nonstop service at a competitive price point between the US and India. The Indian population in this country continues to grow every year and yet between the US3 there is only 2 nonstop flights between the US and India. The ME3 in my opinion are only meeting demand for travel between the US and the Middle East but also between the US and India and Africa but the US3 continue to ignore India but more importantly they continue to ignore a growing population here in America.

A nonstop flight to BLR on US3 may make sense. Now that AI has entered SFO-DEL UA might take a step back to see their yields before deciding on whether to jump into the fray. The next best opportunities now are probably SFO-BOM and EWR-BLR.

As for AA and DL, the best hope is JFK-BOM, but even that might be a bit pie in the sky.
 
AABB777
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RE: UA To Leave DXB

Wed Dec 09, 2015 4:17 pm

Quoting panam330 (Thread starter):

Following DL's lead, I suppose. The last flight will be 23Jan2016. It's a shame, only in the broader sense that, apart from TLV, UA has slashed all its Middle East service in a matter of months.

What is your source? UA976 IAD-DXB is still bookable on United.com beyond January 23, 2016.
 
jetblue1965
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RE: UA To Leave DXB

Wed Dec 09, 2015 4:18 pm

Quoting AABB777 (Reply 14):
What is your source? UA976 IAD-DXB is still bookable on United.com beyond January 23, 2016.

Jose, a very reliable UA source and very likely UA employee, posted that on FT.
 
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enilria
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RE: UA To Leave DXB

Wed Dec 09, 2015 4:30 pm

Quoting hohd (Reply 1):
Reason could be oil

I'm sure that is a big factor. While lower oil hurts the ME3 as well, it doesn't hurt their connecting flows much. It has a disproportionate impact on routes like this one.

Quoting hohd (Reply 1):
or withdrawal of troops from Afghanistan.

But there's a new war nearby with plenty of need for travel.

Delta was connecting 30% of it's traffic in DXB according to MIDT. UA is connecting 20%. DL couldn't end the interline agreement with EK and sustain ATL-DXB without that 30%. My guess is that UA has exactly the same reasoning. They want to end the interline agreement to cutoff feed at ORD, LAX, SFO, etc and probably to protect EWR, but they can't do it while IAD-DXB is still operating.

My guess is this is a precursor to ending the interline agreement. AA and DL have already ended theirs. So, it may or may not be route profitability that is at play here. The data I see shows the route has a very high fare, although the load factors were not stellar, but increasing.

The route also was flown daily and never reduced. It is *EXTREMELY* unusual to drop a daily international route without first reducing frequency to less than daily, particularly if the LF was the problem.
 
klwright69
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RE: UA To Leave DXB

Wed Dec 09, 2015 4:43 pm

Quoting tsnamm (Reply 2):
Interesting that only the sCO destinations remain, and all the sUA destinations have been cut. From what I've heard DXB was a very profitable destination both passenger and cargo/mail. More service being cut from IAD

Only sCO destinations remain? This statement doesn't totally make sense.

Quoting jayunited (Reply 12):
Exactly ever since the disaster in Egypt UA has been rerouting flights to/from the Middle East resulting in a stage length that is much longer that the norm. Flights are no longer able to accommodate any freight and because UA is going with max fuel in both directions. When you combine this with the fact that UA stated on Flying Together that starting next year B6 will have the contract to fly over 15,000 yearly government workers, troops, contractors to DXB UA has come to the conclusion that it's time to leave DXB and look for opportunities elsewhere. However UA did note on Flying Together that B6 will not be flying those 15,000 plus yearly government employees EK will because EK has a partnership with B6 it is the same thing that happened with UA's DOH tag on. AA has the contract but QR is actually the airline government employees are flying on. UA stated they disagree with the GSA's announcement to basically hand EK the contract but just like DL UA seems ready to just move on and put this whole saga behind them.

I wondered about UA's service to DOH. I think the market is just too small from the start, any kind of contracts wouldn't have pushed it over the finish line either. I took QR from DFW to DOH and there were maybe 10 people terminating in DOH, the rest were going to India mostly. I was talking to a sUA flight attendant and she told me that DOH was a joke, it was a 777 market that would take 20 people from DXB. She said that BAH and KWI did better. This was last year before they were cut btw.

I hope it's not true. We'll see.

[Edited 2015-12-09 08:46:08]
 
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adamblang
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RE: UA To Leave DXB

Wed Dec 09, 2015 4:45 pm

A Facebook post I can't link to (because of its privacy restrictions, not because of lack of will on my part) blames the GSA giving the U.S. government DXB contract to a B6-coded EK flight as the reason. With that loss of traffic, the revenue hit dictates deploying the aircraft elsewhere.
146 319 320 321 332 333 343 717 734 735 73G 738 739 744 752 753 763 764 772 773 789 AR1 AT4 CNA CR2 CR7 DC9 ER3 ERD ER4 E70 E75 E90
 
jayunited
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RE: UA To Leave DXB

Wed Dec 09, 2015 4:51 pm

Quoting klwright69 (Reply 17):
I hope it's not true. We'll see.

This is true I'm surprised that it there is no public link available to this story yet but the entire story is posted on Flying Together unfortunately Flying Together is only available to UA employees. Give it time there should be a public announcement coming soon but it is true this is not a rumor.

Here is a small part of the article from FT its a copy and paste as a link to the article would not work for non UA employees

"Due to Gulf carriers' expansion and a recent U.S. government decision, we are discontinuing our IAD-DXB (Dubai) service. Our last departure from IAD to DXB will be on Jan. 23, 2016, and the last departure from DXB will be on Jan. 25, 2016. Our joint venture partners Lufthansa Group and Air Canada (AC) will continue to serve DXB."

Hopefully the entire article will be made public soon.
 
jetblue1965
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RE: UA To Leave DXB

Wed Dec 09, 2015 4:54 pm

Quoting adamblang (Reply 18):

A Facebook post I can't link to (because of its privacy restrictions, not because of lack of will on my part) blames the GSA giving the U.S. government DXB contract to a B6-coded EK flight as the reason. With that loss of traffic, the revenue hit dictates deploying the aircraft elsewhere.

JOSE used the exact reason/blame on FT too. That seems to be the official story line.

But it's a whole lot better to blame on a loss of GSA contract, which is legit, than to blame "ME3 subsidies", as others like to.

Quoting jayunited (Reply 19):


"Due to Gulf carriers' expansion and a recent U.S. government decision, we are discontinuing our IAD-DXB (Dubai) service. Our last departure from IAD to DXB will be on Jan. 23, 2016, and the last departure from DXB will be on Jan. 25, 2016. Our joint venture partners Lufthansa Group and Air Canada (AC) will continue to serve DXB."

I'm glad they didn't weasel by blaming on "subsidies".
 
tsnamm
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RE: UA To Leave DXB

Wed Dec 09, 2015 4:59 pm

Quoting klwright69 (Reply 17):
Interesting that only the sCO destinations remain, and all the sUA destinations have been cut. From what I've heard DXB was a very profitable destination both passenger and cargo/mail. More service being cut from IAD
Only sCO destinations remain? This statement doesn't totally make sense.

the only Mideast destination left is TLV which was a sCO destination. DXB, DOH, KWI, BAH which were from sUA have all been cut.
 
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enilria
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RE: UA To Leave DXB

Wed Dec 09, 2015 5:03 pm

Quoting adamblang (Reply 18):

A Facebook post I can't link to (because of its privacy restrictions, not because of lack of will on my part) blames the GSA giving the U.S. government DXB contract to a B6-coded EK flight as the reason. With that loss of traffic, the revenue hit dictates deploying the aircraft elsewhere.
Quoting jetblue1965 (Reply 20):
But it's a whole lot better to blame on a loss of GSA contract, which is legit, than to blame "ME3 subsidies", as others like to.

What sort of crappy government policy is this to award contracts to the low bidder instead of the bidder who is supposed to win because they always win. We should all write letters of complaint!!!!!   

Quoting jetblue1965 (Reply 20):
I'm glad they didn't weasel by blaming on "subsidies".

Yet...
 
klwright69
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RE: UA To Leave DXB

Wed Dec 09, 2015 5:04 pm

Quoting tsnamm (Reply 21):

Quoting klwright69 (Reply 17):
Interesting that only the sCO destinations remain, and all the sUA destinations have been cut. From what I've heard DXB was a very profitable destination both passenger and cargo/mail. More service being cut from IAD
Only sCO destinations remain? This statement doesn't totally make sense.

the only Mideast destination left is TLV which was a sCO destination. DXB, DOH, KWI, BAH which were from sUA have all been cut.

I see. Except TLV really isn't in the area, the others are Gulf countries, not really much to do with being from the UA side or the CO side really. Not a good comparison.

This cut makes sense. With the ME3 all set up in IAD, UA was doomed.
 
jetblue1965
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RE: UA To Leave DXB

Wed Dec 09, 2015 5:06 pm

Quoting tsnamm (Reply 21):
DXB, DOH, KWI, BAH which were from sUA have all been cut.

Those all had troubles, and only marginally sustained :

1. Based nearly entirely out of govt traffic. The GSA contract was do-or-die.
2. Ill configured aircraft. Empty 8F in front and overly generous 9-abreast Y in the back.
3. Extremely expensive and loss-leading tags, esp the DOH one.

And now coupled with (1) war draw-down, and (2) too many no-fly areas.

Quoting enilria (Reply 22):
What sort of crappy government policy is this to award contracts to the low bidder instead of the bidder who is supposed to win because they always win.

The flip side of the argument works too - why is the govt giving their funds to foreign entities instead of a US company ? B6/AA hardly earns anything beyond pennies on the code-share, so it mostly benefit QR (for DOH) and EK (for DXB).
 
S75752
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RE: UA To Leave DXB

Wed Dec 09, 2015 5:17 pm

Quoting fun2fly (Reply 10):

I would have thought that the B789 would have given this route additional life. Oh well.

I'm actually very surprised that they're cutting it completely rather than downgrading. In fact, the 788 can handle IAD-DXB just fine, so they could have gone with that too.
 
TC957
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RE: UA To Leave DXB

Wed Dec 09, 2015 5:27 pm

EK's hierarchy must be loving this - expect 2nd daily DXB - IAD to be launched soon now and with A380.
 
theginge
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RE: UA To Leave DXB

Wed Dec 09, 2015 5:35 pm

Quoting jetblue1965 (Reply 11):
It's adding a lot. The flight has to avoid Iran, Iraq, Syria, and Ukraine. A 7060mi flight is nearly 7600mi all of a sudden. Add the fact that the alternative routing is much more southerly and in the way of headwinds, which makes the ESAD increase even worse.

Is avoiding Iran a US thing as everyone else seems to fly over Iran to get to the Middle East from the North and West?
 
bmacleod
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RE: UA To Leave DXB

Wed Dec 09, 2015 5:40 pm

So are they DL UA being pushed out by EK QR and EY market share?
"What good are wings without the courage to fly?" - Atticus
 
jetblue1965
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RE: UA To Leave DXB

Wed Dec 09, 2015 5:41 pm

Quoting theginge (Reply 27):
Is avoiding Iran a US thing as everyone else seems to fly over Iran to get to the Middle East from the North and West?

Maybe it is. I was looking at actual flight paths of DXB-IAD and see them traversing across Saudi Arabia to near Jordan before turning northwest. A great circle routing should take them straight through Iran and Turkey.
 
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jetblastdubai
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RE: UA To Leave DXB

Wed Dec 09, 2015 5:53 pm

Quoting jetblue1965 (Reply 11):
It's adding a lot. The flight has to avoid Iran, Iraq, Syria, and Ukraine

Iraq is a 'no-fly' zone for commercial traffic and most of the North American flights fly directly over Iran. Iran probably makes pretty good $ charging for the overflights.

The way the region is starting to boil, a lot more airspace could become off limits sooner than later. Won't sit well with the ME3 at all as many travelers might prefer to a stop-over in a friendlier part of the world, if given the option.
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YYZflyboy
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RE: UA To Leave DXB

Wed Dec 09, 2015 5:54 pm

Quoting enilria (Reply 16):

Can't flyers from IAD connect in YYZ on AC's new YYZ-DXB service? UA and *A partner.
 
jetblue1965
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RE: UA To Leave DXB

Wed Dec 09, 2015 6:09 pm

Quoting YYZflyboy (Reply 31):
Can't flyers from IAD connect in YYZ on AC's new YYZ-DXB service? UA and *A partner.

Definitely. In fact, that's what UA officially said on their intranet :

Quoting jayunited (Reply 19):
"Our joint venture partners Lufthansa Group and Air Canada (AC) will continue to serve DXB."
 
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LAXintl
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RE: UA To Leave DXB

Wed Dec 09, 2015 6:15 pm

United commentary:


Service to DXB ends in January

Due to Gulf carriers' expansion and a recent U.S. government decision, we are discontinuing our IAD-DXB (Dubai) service. Our last departure from IAD to DXB will be on Jan. 23, 2016, and the last departure from DXB will be on Jan. 25, 2016. Our joint venture partners Lufthansa Group and Air Canada (AC) will continue to serve DXB.

Even though we successfully operated the IAD-DXB route for the past seven years, the entry of subsidized carriers such as Emirates Airline (EK) and Etihad Airways (EY) into the Washington, D.C., market has created an imbalance between supply and demand to the United Arab Emirates (UAE). As they’ve added subsidized capacity, our IAD-DXB route has become less profitable.

In August, the General Services Administration (GSA) announced that it awarded the U.S. government contract for 2016 on the Washington-DXB route to JetBlue (B6), a codeshare partner of EK. We formally protested this decision but were ultimately unsuccessful.

B6 has no service to the Middle East and no presence in the region. Its codeshare partner, EK, will be solely operating this route and will be carrying an estimated 15,000 U.S. government employees, including active duty military personnel, whose official travel is funded by U.S. taxpayers.

"It is unfortunate that the GSA awarded this route to an airline that has no service to the Middle East and will rely entirely on a subsidized foreign carrier to transport U.S. government employees, military personnel and contractors," said Regulatory and Policy VP Steve Morrissey. "We believe this decision violates the intent of the Fly America Act, which expressly limits the U.S. government from procuring commercial airline services directly from a non-U.S. carrier. For the Washington to Dubai route, JetBlue merely serves as a booking agent for Emirates."


=
From the desert to the sea, to all of Southern California
 
dubaiamman243
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RE: UA To Leave DXB

Wed Dec 09, 2015 6:22 pm

at least they mentioned that the route is profitable, not like Dodo.
The next airline CEO :crossfingers:
 
jetblue1965
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RE: UA To Leave DXB

Wed Dec 09, 2015 6:25 pm

Quoting LAXintl (Reply 33):

"It is unfortunate that the GSA awarded this route to an airline that has no service to the Middle East and will rely entirely on a subsidized foreign carrier to transport U.S. government employees, military personnel and contractors," said Regulatory and Policy VP Steve Morrissey. "We believe this decision violates the intent of the Fly America Act, which expressly limits the U.S. government from procuring commercial airline services directly from a non-U.S. carrier. For the Washington to Dubai route, JetBlue merely serves as a booking agent for Emirates."

This is dangerous precedent (although the AA/DOH thing was first). What prevents B6 from code-sharing with a carrier from a rogue nation, and winning the GSA bid ? Is the government really flying their employees on rogue nation airlines ?
 
steex
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RE: UA To Leave DXB

Wed Dec 09, 2015 6:34 pm

Quoting jetblue1965 (Reply 35):
This is dangerous precedent (although the AA/DOH thing was first). What prevents B6 from code-sharing with a carrier from a rogue nation, and winning the GSA bid ? Is the government really flying their employees on rogue nation airlines ?

Or from another angle, for all the skin B6 actually has in the game of flying pax IAD-DXB, what's really to stop a pure travel agent from setting up a paper airline and bidding for these contracts as codeshares?
 
jetblue1965
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RE: UA To Leave DXB

Wed Dec 09, 2015 6:39 pm

Quoting steex (Reply 36):

Or from another angle, for all the skin B6 actually has in the game of flying pax IAD-DXB, what's really to stop a pure travel agent from setting up a paper airline and bidding for these contracts as codeshares?

I'd be curious too. Does one actually need a Airworthiness Certificates if an "airline" only has code-shares but no planes or flights ?

Another question is does GSA evaluate purely on price, or other factors in consideration as well ?

The FlyAmerica act was supposed to keep the funds on US carriers, and only bid out to foreign airlines if not a single US airline serves it. The code-share part renders the entire act absolutely meaningless now.
 
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northwestEWR
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RE: UA To Leave DXB

Wed Dec 09, 2015 6:43 pm

Quoting jetblue1965 (Reply 37):
The FlyAmerica act was supposed to keep the funds on US carriers, and only bid out to foreign airlines if not a single US airline serves it. The code-share part renders the entire act absolutely meaningless now.

I'm sure we'll hear more about this in the future. I expect UA and DL to complain about this rule to Congress/DOJ/DOT.
Northwest Airlines - Now You're Flying Smart
 
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LAXintl
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RE: UA To Leave DXB

Wed Dec 09, 2015 6:43 pm

U.S airlines fought hard to have codeshares included in GSA contracts many many years ago as they felt they could secure more business and cover more of the world via codeshare/alliance partners.

They were correct of course, but nothing stops JetBlue, Alaska, or Virgin America for example from employing the same tactic and their codeshare partners as beneficial network extenders.
From the desert to the sea, to all of Southern California
 
mia
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RE: UA To Leave DXB

Wed Dec 09, 2015 6:43 pm

Article I read stated US Govt Contract for DXB went to Jet Blue and their partner EK.

http://www.nytimes.com/reuters/2015/...09reuters-ual-dubai.html?src=busln
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jetblastdubai
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RE: UA To Leave DXB

Wed Dec 09, 2015 6:50 pm

Quoting jetblue1965 (Reply 37):
The FlyAmerica act was supposed to keep the funds on US carriers, and only bid out to foreign airlines if not a single US airline serves it. The code-share part renders the entire act absolutely meaningless now.

This administration hasn't been exactly favorable to many US businesses the past few years. Giving the contract to B6, knowing full-well that EK would be the biggest benefactor, was definitely known by the decision-makers.

13 more months....can't some soon enough.
Every zoo is a petting zoo......if you're a man!
 
global1
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RE: UA To Leave DXB

Wed Dec 09, 2015 6:56 pm

The travesty in this is that UA lost a contract to transport thousands of government workers on this route to JetBlue, of all people.
Since JetBlue codeshares on this route with EK, I suppose technically they are flying on a US carrier.

They are not.

I, for one, do not like the idea of my tax dollars going to purchase tickets for US employees on Middle East airlines. The US government should be supporting US carriers. We pay taxes (which pay the salaries of these government employees), have hundreds of thousands of Americans on our payroll, are NOT subsidized, transport troops, and supply support in times of war.
US employees should be flying US airlines. Let Jennifer Anniston fly EK.

JetBlue to Dubai? Give me a break

What's next, have government employees fly EK out of SEA because they have a codeshare with AS?

When these government workers take advantage of their generous benefits, collect social security, etc... it is WE who have made that possible, not the citizens of Abu Dhabi, Qatar, or the United Arab Emirates.

[Edited 2015-12-09 11:06:00]

[Edited 2015-12-09 11:19:25]
 
User avatar
thekorean
Posts: 1761
Joined: Mon Dec 05, 2011 9:05 pm

RE: UA To Leave DXB

Wed Dec 09, 2015 6:59 pm

Quoting LAXintl (Reply 39):

B6 doesn't even fly outside Americas, and that should mean something though.
 
jetblue1965
Posts: 5050
Joined: Wed Mar 19, 2014 1:28 pm

RE: UA To Leave DXB

Wed Dec 09, 2015 7:01 pm

Quoting jetblastdubai (Reply 41):

This administration hasn't been exactly favorable to many US businesses the past few years. Giving the contract to B6, knowing full-well that EK would be the biggest benefactor, was definitely known by the decision-makers.

I'm guessing the 772A conversion to domestic has something to do with it. UA had to pull 10x 77As out from Atlantic, and find another 10x 77Es to backfill those flights. As a result, they chose to surrender the marginal 777 flights by not getting down to those money losing levels.

2015, GSA, IAD-DXB

YCA -CA -CB
$979 679 7,114 (UA)

2016, GSA, IAD-DXB

699 0.00 6,600 (B6)

Jetblue underbid UA by a whopping 29%. As a point of comparison, the previous IAD-KWI had a GSA YCA fare of 1429. It's not hard to imagine UA would lose money if they're flying 7000+ routes for $699 one-way, last seat availability.

Interestingly, both JFK-DXB and ATL-DXB contracts belong to AA for 2016.
 
User avatar
enilria
Posts: 9572
Joined: Fri Feb 22, 2008 7:15 pm

RE: UA To Leave DXB

Wed Dec 09, 2015 7:02 pm

Quoting enilria (Reply 22):
Quoting jetblue1965 (Reply 20):
I'm glad they didn't weasel by blaming on "subsidies".

Yet...
Quoting LAXintl (Reply 33):
As they’ve added subsidized capacity, our IAD-DXB route has become less profitable.

...and that lasted how long?

Quoting jetblue1965 (Reply 24):
The flip side of the argument works too - why is the govt giving their funds to foreign entities instead of a US company ?
Quoting YYZflyboy (Reply 31):
Quoting enilria (Reply 16):

Can't flyers from IAD connect in DXB service? SA)">UA and *A partner.
Quoting LAXintl (Reply 33):
"It is unfortunate that the GSA awarded this route to an airline that has no service to the Middle East and will rely entirely on a subsidized foreign carrier to transport U.S. government employees, military personnel and contractors," said Regulatory and Policy VP Steve Morrissey.
Quoting LAXintl (Reply 33):
For the Washington to Dubai route, JetBlue merely serves as a booking agent for Emirates."
Quoting steex (Reply 36):
Or from another angle, for all the skin SA)">B6 actually has in the game of flying pax IAD-DXB, what's really to stop a pure travel agent from setting up a paper airline and bidding for these contracts as codeshares?
Quoting LAXintl (Reply 39):
U.S airlines fought hard to have codeshares included in GSA contracts many many years ago as they felt they could secure more business and cover more of the world via codeshare/alliance partners.

I cannot believe the U.S. carriers have the chutzpah to say B6's code share with EK is a front for using the GSA award system (which itself is a subsidy program for USA carriers) when 99% of the time AA DL UA use their code shares with foreign carriers to qualify under the same program. What a joke? UA is promoting IAD-YYZ-DXB as a substitute route which is EXACTLY THE SAME THING.

[Edited 2015-12-09 11:03:20]

[Edited 2015-12-09 11:04:14]

[Edited 2015-12-09 11:04:52]
 
jetblue1965
Posts: 5050
Joined: Wed Mar 19, 2014 1:28 pm

RE: UA To Leave DXB

Wed Dec 09, 2015 7:05 pm

Quoting enilria (Reply 45):
when 99% of the time SA)">AA SA)">DL SA)">UA use their code shares with foreign carriers to qualify under the same program. What a joke? SA)">UA is promoting IAD-YYZ-DXB as a substitute route which is EXACTLY THE SAME THING.

The difference is that in other cases, the US-based airlines that fly the pax a certain distance, then hand off to a partner for the last few miles.

In this case, B6 doesn't have to lift a single finger at all. All they do is sit back, collect the funds, and plate the reservation on 279 stock. They don't have to pay for a single gallon of fuel, or even deploy a single ground or flight crew. FWIW, B6 is this instance is no different than just Expedia or Kayak.
 
DXTraveler
Posts: 64
Joined: Wed May 27, 2015 4:31 pm

RE: UA To Leave DXB

Wed Dec 09, 2015 7:06 pm

JetBlue does in fact take over the route from United January 1. Interesting it was done in mid fiscal year. Below are the YCA, CA, and CB one way fares.

CHECK DCA, BWI OR IAD DUBAI United N 979.00 679.00 7,114.00 10/01/2015 12/31/2015
CHECK DCA, BWI OR IAD DUBAI JetBlue N 699.00 0.00 6,600.00 01/01/2016 09/30/2016

If I remember correctly, JetBlue had the contract fare last year to Dakar, Senegal. This fiscal year it's with Delta. Here's the GSA webpage for anyone interested in government city pairs and fares.
https://cpsearch.fas.gsa.gov/cpsearch/search.do?method=enter
 
User avatar
thekorean
Posts: 1761
Joined: Mon Dec 05, 2011 9:05 pm

RE: UA To Leave DXB

Wed Dec 09, 2015 7:09 pm

Quoting enilria (Reply 45):

US3 actually fly to most destinations demanded by US government. ICN, LHR, CDG etc...

JetBlue doesn't even leave this continent. It's just down right Schrade.
 
steex
Posts: 1423
Joined: Wed Jun 27, 2007 8:45 am

RE: UA To Leave DXB

Wed Dec 09, 2015 7:11 pm

Quoting LAXintl (Reply 39):

U.S airlines fought hard to have codeshares included in GSA contracts many many years ago as they felt they could secure more business and cover more of the world via codeshare/alliance partners.

They were correct of course, but nothing stops JetBlue, Alaska, or Virgin America for example from employing the same tactic and their codeshare partners as beneficial network extenders.

It seems to me like it's become a murky issue as the airline landscape has changed. There's a lot of different arguments that could be made and questions that could be asked depending on one's perspective, and two about which I'm particularly curious.

Why should codeshares count when the operating carrier will ultimately be the recipient of most of the revenue?

In a world of immunized JVs, why should an American carrier like UA receive preferential treatment only to share the revenue with AC and LH Group? Why is it okay for LH to indirectly end up with a slice of the pie, and if that is okay, why is it okay to pick-and-choose which foreign carriers are acceptable?

B6 being awarded IAD-DXB feels "wrong" to me, but I'm not sure how to determine to what degree it's worse than other arrangements awarded by GSA.

I don't know that I have answers to these questions, just points that make me curious. And yes, I'm aware of the difference between a codeshare and the JV relationships, revenue sharing just seems to me like a development that has made things considerably less clear.

[Edited 2015-12-09 11:13:46]

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