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KarelXWB
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HA Eyes Additional 717 Planes

Wed Dec 09, 2015 3:55 pm

Hawaiian Airlines is scouting for additional 717 jets.

Quote:
Hawaiian also is in the market for more Boeing Co. 717 jets, which it uses for flights between the Hawaiian islands, he said. Spain’s Volotea SL has said it is selling its 717s in the next several years and moving to an all-Airbus fleet, according to the Spanish newspaper El Pais. Dunkerley declined to say if Hawaiian would seek to buy Volotea’s 717s.

Source
http://www.staradvertiser.com/busine...ore-east-coast-flights-in-2-years/

Is this a stopgap until the A321neo arrives?
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JetBlueGuy2006
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RE: HA Eyes Additional 717 Planes

Wed Dec 09, 2015 3:59 pm

Quoting KarelXWB (Thread starter):
Is this a stopgap until the A321neo arrives?

Not sure. I was under the impression that the NEO would primarily be used for flights to the West Coast as to free up more A330's for flights further East.

Plus, I am not sure how well the NEO would do with shorter flights and higher cycles for inter-island ops.
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Polot
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RE: HA Eyes Additional 717 Planes

Wed Dec 09, 2015 4:02 pm

Quoting KarelXWB (Thread starter):
Is this a stopgap until the A321neo arrives?

The A321neos are (primarily) for Hawaii-West Coast flights. 717s are for inter-island flights. Although they probably will have a few inter-island turns for utilization/positioning reasons the A321s will not be replacing any 717s.

[Edited 2015-12-09 08:03:13]
 
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RayChuang
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RE: HA Eyes Additional 717 Planes

Wed Dec 09, 2015 4:02 pm

I think HA wants as many 717-200's as possible for their inter-island services, which are very well-suited for this plane. Expect HA to take even more planes to expand their inter-island flights.
 
deltairlines
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RE: HA Eyes Additional 717 Planes

Wed Dec 09, 2015 4:04 pm

Quoting RayChuang (Reply 3):

I think HA wants as many 717-200's as possible for their inter-island services, which are very well-suited for this plane. Expect HA to take even more planes to expand their inter-island flights.

Keep in mind that while there are few operators of 717s, they are in demand. Most likely Delta and Qantas will be looking to acquire the same frames that HA will be going after.
 
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DocLightning
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RE: HA Eyes Additional 717 Planes

Wed Dec 09, 2015 4:11 pm

Quoting deltairlines (Reply 4):

Keep in mind that while there are few operators of 717s, they are in demand. Most likely Delta and Qantas will be looking to acquire the same frames that HA will be going after.

Given that flight times from wheels-up to wheels-down within the islands are often as short as 15 minutes and never longer than an hour or so, HA needs the specific capabilities of the 717 and it's tolerance for very high and short cycles more than QF does. QF could also operate E-jets and other short-range airliners, but QF does not have a bunch of 15 minute routes.

Most of HA's routes within the islands would never be offered as commercial flights if there were a way to drive them. Many are less than 100 miles.
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LY777
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RE: HA Eyes Additional 717 Planes

Wed Dec 09, 2015 4:25 pm

The question is: which a/c will HA choose when their 717s are getting too old?
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RE: HA Eyes Additional 717 Planes

Wed Dec 09, 2015 4:54 pm

Quoting LY777 (Reply 6):

The thing is...most of the 100 seaters being introduced on the market now are mainly optimized for cruise and range. To HA, these qualities are insufficient as the entire island chain is just 300 miles and most of the Inter-Island flights are just roughly 15-20 minutes.

When the 717's are no longer serviceable, HA will have to choose a 100 seater that is ideally suited for the job of high cycles and short turnaround times. The problem is...there's no such airplane yet on the market. Who knows; by the time Mr. Dunkerley has to make a decision regarding Inter-Island replacement, a more viable solution will be available.

Quoting KarelXWB (Thread starter):

Is this a stopgap until the A321neo arrives?

The neo's will be assigned a completely different mission compared to the 717. Sure some of them might be placed on Inter-Island for repositioning as Polot has stated; but those planes will be given the primary task of Island-US Mainland flying.
 
INFINITI329
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RE: HA Eyes Additional 717 Planes

Wed Dec 09, 2015 5:02 pm

Quoting RayChuang (Reply 3):

I think HA wants as many 717-200's as possible for their inter-island services, which are very well-suited for this plane. Expect HA to take even more planes to expand their inter-island flights.

The question is can they outbid DL
 
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RE: HA Eyes Additional 717 Planes

Wed Dec 09, 2015 5:20 pm

Quoting LY777 (Reply 6):
which a/c will HA choose when their 717s are getting too old?

Maybe C-Series? Embraer E2s?
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audidudi
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RE: HA Eyes Additional 717 Planes

Wed Dec 09, 2015 5:23 pm

I just noticed on skyliner-aviation.de that an ex-Blue 1 bird, OH-BLO, is going to QantasLink. Interesting that neither DL nor HA bought this one.

[Edited 2015-12-09 09:31:53]
 
azjubilee
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RE: HA Eyes Additional 717 Planes

Wed Dec 09, 2015 5:27 pm

Quoting infiniti329 (Reply 8):
The question is can they outbid DL

This is a key point right here. Attempting to acquire more 717s is nothing new at HAL. In late 2011/early 2012, 3 additional frames were acquired. The latest Blue1 opportunity, rendered HAL with the short end of the stick being outbid by DL, Volotea and QANTAS. Perhaps now that it's very clear how much in demand these planes are and what a great plane it is (HAL has known this for over 15 years!), HAL will be willing to pay more.
 
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Boeing778X
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RE: HA Eyes Additional 717 Planes

Wed Dec 09, 2015 5:42 pm

Quoting KarelXWB (Thread starter):
Hawaiian Airlines is scouting for additional 717 jets.

Loose 717s are becoming like PS4s a week before Christmas...scarce.

156 717s were built. According to WIki, DL has 88 plus an additional three being acquired from Blue1.

HA has 18. Total so far is 109.

Volotea has 19 with an additional 2 coming from Blue1. Total is 132.

The rest are operated by QF and T5.

Now who'd give up their 717s?
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Luxair747SP
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RE: HA Eyes Additional 717 Planes

Wed Dec 09, 2015 5:53 pm

Quoting Boeing778X (Reply 12):
The rest are operated by QF and T5.

AFAIK T5 is also planning to phase out its 717 fleet, rather soon, but im sure someone has more details on this?
 
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sunrisevalley
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RE: HA Eyes Additional 717 Planes

Wed Dec 09, 2015 6:00 pm

Quoting LY777 (Reply 6):
The question is: which a/c will HA choose when their 717s are getting too old?

when is too old ? The 717 and its earlier iterations just keep going and going with no signs of throwing in the towel. Modern day DC3's.
 
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Boeing778X
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RE: HA Eyes Additional 717 Planes

Wed Dec 09, 2015 6:22 pm

Quoting LY777 (Reply 6):
The question is: which a/c will HA choose when their 717s are getting too old?

No No No. Listen up, the DC-9 and it's successors are one of those families granted with near eternal youth, not to mention they are durable and reliable.

You just watch DL operate those MD-90s and 717s till 2040. They operated a 35+ year old DC-9-50s until last year.

Realistically, I have a hunch some MD-90/717s will outlive even planes built only a few years ago!
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N757ST
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RE: HA Eyes Additional 717 Planes

Wed Dec 09, 2015 6:28 pm

Hawaiian's aircraft won't last as long as deltas. I'm taking a wild stab, but I'd guess with only 15minute flights these things are flying ~12 segments a day? With a 110,000 cycle limit, you are looking at a max of 25 years.
 
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MD80
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RE: HA Eyes Additional 717 Planes

Wed Dec 09, 2015 6:29 pm

Quoting Boeing778X (Reply 12):
The rest are operated by QF and T5

IIRC, a contract was signed in 2011 between Cobham Aviation Services Australia and Qantas for the Boeing 717s (operated in the livery of "QantasLink") until 2018. Unless a new contract was signed, this could mean that the QantasLink 717s will be available sooner or later?

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texl1649
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RE: HA Eyes Additional 717 Planes

Wed Dec 09, 2015 6:43 pm

Short hop high cycle nb ("island hopper") variant could plausibly be where a vendor like comac or even Mitsubishi could target a derivative if they can stay in production and build some reputation otherwise as durable/reliable.

100-200 frames wouldn't be worth the effort to Boeing or Airbus really.
 
bluesky73
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RE: HA Eyes Additional 717 Planes

Wed Dec 09, 2015 6:47 pm

Great news HA to source more 717s but good luck with snapping up a most sort after niche aircraft.

As I mentioned in a recent CS post shame Boeing can't help the project and buy in (or all) and look at offering a CS100 USR (ultra short range) that performs what 717s can, Maybe start the next 8*8 series and name Boeing 808, that would be apt for Hawaii plus the Chinese love number 8   this is assuming of course previous 808 Boeing projects ever materialise (wasn't 808 that the space craft- sorry going off topic?).

In the meantime long live the 717 (esp in HA livery!) Had my inter-island hops on N476HA and N479HA - Awesome   
 
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RE: HA Eyes Additional 717 Planes

Wed Dec 09, 2015 6:47 pm

Quoting infiniti329 (Reply 8):
The question is can they outbid DL

I doubt it. Expect Delta to be absolutely ruthless against Hawaiian for more 717s.

Quoting EddieDude (Reply 9):
Maybe C-Series? Embraer E2s?

Q400s? Surprised it hasn't happened already.

Quoting Luxair747SP (Reply 13):
AFAIK T5 is also planning to phase out its 717 fleet, rather soon, but im sure someone has more details on this?

They're already being parked. Delta is interested of course. I heard there is some concern about the aircraft maintenance history and records.

Quoting Boeing778X (Reply 15):
Realistically, I have a hunch some MD-90/717s will outlive even planes built only a few years ago!

That's undoubtedly true. The DC-9 outlasted A320s that were delivered to Northwest!
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CV880
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RE: HA Eyes Additional 717 Planes

Wed Dec 09, 2015 6:47 pm

Quoting infiniti329 (Reply 8):
The question is can they outbid DL

Probably not, but they can always volunteer to be added to the Delta collection, seeing as how they have somewhat identical fleets as far as 717's A330's. A321's & 763's.
  
 
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Polot
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RE: HA Eyes Additional 717 Planes

Wed Dec 09, 2015 6:55 pm

Quoting texl1649 (Reply 18):
100-200 frames wouldn't be worth the effort to Boeing or Airbus really.

I doubt any manufacturer would get 100-200 frames total for a short hop high cycle island hopper narrowbody.

It is an incredibly niche market.

In any event the biggest issue is the engines. If PW or whoever can make something for the MRJ, C-series, or whatever that works for those missions there is nothing stopping competitors from possibly using them too.
Quoting N757ST (Reply 16):
With a 110,000 cycle limit, you are looking at a max of 25 years.

Agreed, that is about how long HA operated the DC-9-50s. So about 15 more years. Douglas's planes are durable, but short island hops in a high salt environment are brutal to the air frame. They won't last forever.

[Edited 2015-12-09 10:58:16]
 
Passedv1
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RE: HA Eyes Additional 717 Planes

Wed Dec 09, 2015 7:43 pm

I can get understand why HA wants the 717's so bad, but why does everyone think that Delta does? I know they'll take them if they can get them economically, but HA needs them more...it's one thing for a 737 to do a short hop every once in a while, but to have a short hop geographically isolated route structure takes the need for having a 717 specifically to a whole new level. Delta does have a different cost/revenue structure so may be able to pay more but if it comes down to who wants the plane more I don't see how Delta wins.

As far as NEO's replacing 717's, that won't happen, according to Hawaiian right now, however if it came down to it and Hawaiian needed to, I think the NEO's could replace the majority if not all of the 717's.1st, NEO's have more seats so could provide the same lift with less flights. 2nd, the cycle problem isn't as bad as you might think once you get a single n/b type. A plane wouldn't have 12-15 cycles a day as the 717s do now, they might have 6...a R/t inter island with a run to the west coast in between followed by another inter island run upon returning to Hawaii could work.


An NEO could do the 0700 HNL-OGG-HNL...depart for SJC at 0900 get in at 1300 PST...1400 departure back for HNL...back in HNL by 1800 HST...and then do another OGG turn at 1900....and be back in the hanger by 2000. 6 cycles and 12 hours of utilization...seems pretty typical for a n/b.
 
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Polot
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RE: HA Eyes Additional 717 Planes

Wed Dec 09, 2015 7:52 pm

Quoting PassedV1 (Reply 23):
I can get understand why HA wants the 717's so bad, but why does everyone think that Delta does? I know they'll take them if they can get them economically, but HA needs them more...it's one thing for a 737 to do a short hop every once in a while, but to have a short hop geographically isolated route structure takes the need for having a 717 specifically to a whole new level. Delta does have a different cost/revenue structure so may be able to pay more but if it comes down to who wants the plane more I don't see how Delta wins.

The owner of any available 717s doesn't care who needs the planes more. They are only interested in who pays more and Delta is obviously interested in more 100 seaters. They were willing to get 20 E190s earlier this year until the pilots rejected their contract.
 
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RE: HA Eyes Additional 717 Planes

Thu Dec 10, 2015 1:26 am

Besides cycles on the airframe, and climate, isn't the engine an issue, too, for HA? I recall reading that there could other airframes out there that could work in their environment, but the engines don't.
 
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RE: HA Eyes Additional 717 Planes

Thu Dec 10, 2015 1:35 am

Quoting Polot (Reply 24):

The owner of any available 717s doesn't care who needs the planes more. They are only interested in who pays more and Delta is obviously interested in more 100 seaters.

If they have the cash then presumably Hawaiian will pay more because they need them more. Delta didn't buy used MD-90s or 717s because they are magical fairy planes that can operate with nothing more than rainbows and lollipops, they bought hem because they got a deal. I wouldn't be surprised to see HA buy EX DL 717s as HA's 717s cycle out and DL replaces them with more modern/efficient 100 seaters.
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dbo861
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RE: HA Eyes Additional 717 Planes

Thu Dec 10, 2015 1:41 am

There have been several mentions of C-Series, but how would C-Series work on these inter island flights? If it compares somewhat to the 717, here's a thought:

Bombardier is desperate to get orders, and would offer a great deal to get another big name airline to sign on to the C-Series. HA wants more 717s, but obviously supply is limited, and they'll have to get into a bidding war with DL/QF for what few 717s might come available in the coming years.

Why not order enough C-Series to replace their fleet of 717s, plus as many as they need for growth. They can then sell off their 717s to DL/QF while the frames are still in hot demand have some value left in them. Use the money from selling the 717s to pay off at least part of the C-Series and now they have a shiny new fleet. The 717s aren't going to last forever after all, and growth is limited.
 
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northwestEWR
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RE: HA Eyes Additional 717 Planes

Thu Dec 10, 2015 1:41 am

Quoting doug_or (Reply 26):
I wouldn't be surprised to see HA buy EX DL 717s as HA's 717s cycle out and DL replaces them with more modern/efficient 100 seaters.

   Good luck with that. Delta will fly the Maddogs until they're economically ridiculous. They will almost certainly be the last MD-88 and MD-90 operator world-wide and likely the same can be said for the 717 decades from now.

[Edited 2015-12-09 17:42:53]
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roseflyer
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RE: HA Eyes Additional 717 Planes

Thu Dec 10, 2015 1:44 am

Quoting northwestEWR (Reply 20):

Quoting infiniti329 (Reply 8):
The question is can they outbid DL

I doubt it. Expect Delta to be absolutely ruthless against Hawaiian for more 717s.

I doubt Delta would try hard to outbid HA. Delta likes the 717 because they are cheap. Delta had no interest in buying them when they were new. Delta looks for used airplanes to get a good deal and keep acquisition prices down. If HA needs them, I believe that they would be willing to pay more.
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texl1649
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RE: HA Eyes Additional 717 Planes

Thu Dec 10, 2015 1:50 am

The 717, with little to no marketing support, sold a couple hundred frames, in a tough market at the time. As congestion keeps growing globally I think eventually a real successor will evolve. Of course, I didn't think Boeing would kill the 757 without a successor so I could be wrong again.
 
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RE: HA Eyes Additional 717 Planes

Thu Dec 10, 2015 1:53 am

Quoting northwestEWR (Reply 28):
Good luck with that. Delta will fly the Maddogs until they cycle out. They will almost certainly be the last MD-88 and MD-90 operator world-wide and likely the same can be said for the 717 decades from now.

You are most likely correct. But Delta will not shoot the moon to get 717s unless they are really low time low cycle aircraft.
Delta might just bid on them so Hawaiian has to pay more.   
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32andBelow
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RE: HA Eyes Additional 717 Planes

Thu Dec 10, 2015 1:56 am

Maybe they can buy that chinese carbon copy!   
 
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northwestEWR
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RE: HA Eyes Additional 717 Planes

Thu Dec 10, 2015 2:01 am

Quoting NWAROOSTER (Reply 31):
Delta might just bid on them so Hawaiian has to pay more.   

There's no doubt about that. They absolutely will.

Quoting roseflyer (Reply 29):
I doubt Delta would try hard to outbid HA. Delta likes the 717 because they are cheap. Delta had no interest in buying them when they were new. Delta looks for used airplanes to get a good deal and keep acquisition prices down. If HA needs them, I believe that they would be willing to pay more.

That was true at the beginning--adding a new fleet is expensive and they jumped at the 717 because they got an incredible deal. Now that they've established a fleet and LOVES it, things are different. They're going to be willing to pay more to top-up the fleet because that would still be cheaper than adding something like the E90s.

It also depends on who can make more money with the airplanes. I suspect Delta can bid more because the 717s will generate more revenue on the DL network than running inter-island and so the airplanes are worth more to DL.

It's going to be a very tough spot for Hawaiian.
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TrijetsRMissed
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RE: HA Eyes Additional 717 Planes

Thu Dec 10, 2015 2:44 am

HA's interest should come as no surprise. But now that they are active, this will further propel the 717's value as the hot commodity on the used aircraft market.

Quoting Luxair747SP (Reply 13):
AFAIK T5 is also planning to phase out its 717 fleet, rather soon, but im sure someone has more details on this?

It would be most prudent for T5 to act while the iron is hot. There will never be a better time to exploit the demand to gain a sizable return. And while T5 historically only buy new, a transition plan to used 73Gs would be a smart move.

Quoting Polot (Reply 22):
Quoting N757ST (Reply 16):
With a 110,000 cycle limit, you are looking at a max of 25 years.

Agreed, that is about how long HA operated the DC-9-50s. So about 15 more years.

Probably 15 more years at best for the original deliveries. But not the second hand aircraft that flew routine missions for years. Conceivably, if HA were to back-fill their original fleet (10-12 frames), 2040 operation would not be out of the question.   

Quoting PassedV1 (Reply 23):
NEO's have more seats so could provide the same lift with less flights. 2nd, the cycle problem isn't as bad as you might think once you get a single n/b type. A plane wouldn't have 12-15 cycles a day as the 717s do now, they might have 6...

I don't see it happening. The high number of inter-island frequencies is important to HA's business model.

Quoting doug_or (Reply 26):
I wouldn't be surprised to see HA buy EX DL 717s as HA's 717s cycle out and DL replaces them with more modern/efficient 100 seaters.

Based on actual contracts, that could not even be considered until 2031-32 - and even then extremely unlikely.

Quoting roseflyer (Reply 29):
Delta likes the 717 because they are cheap. Delta had no interest in buying them when they were new. Delta looks for used airplanes to get a good deal and keep acquisition prices down.

The battle has already been won with the 88 frame economies of scale. Everything else is gravy. Do you know what DL paid on the Blue1 aircraft? Only $10m less than what Boeing was selling them as new 12 years ago.

As for DL having no interest when the line was open, keep in mind that was Leo Mullen. A whole different regime, and thus ideology and strategy.

Quoting NWAROOSTER (Reply 31):
But Delta will not shoot the moon to get 717s unless they are really low time low cycle aircraft.

FWIW, the originally delivered YX aircraft fit this profile.

Quoting northwestEWR (Reply 33):
That was true at the beginning--adding a new fleet is expensive and they jumped at the 717 because they got an incredible deal. Now that they've established a fleet and LOVES it, things are different. They're going to be willing to pay more to top-up the fleet because that would still be cheaper than adding something like the E90s.

  
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nikeson13
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RE: HA Eyes Additional 717 Planes

Thu Dec 10, 2015 2:57 am

Almost a little over a year ago we had a thread almost identical to this one here on what will HA do with the 717's and what can be a replacement for them.

There is no general solution to the problem. HA needs a couple of things:
1) Cargo capacity
2) Robust on short segments + fast + quick turnarounds
3) 100-150 seats, but only marginal growth
4) High frequency of flights

And whats out there:
-ATR/Dash8 = too small, no cargo, somewhat slow
-737s/A320s = too big, long turnarounds
-E2s = slightly small on cargo, slightly long turnarounds, but not too robust
-CSeries/MRJ = Stellar in all, but nobody know yet if its good at 2(and they probably won't be)

POSSIBLY a mix of 2 of the above (but i don't think HA wants that), solely E2/MRJ/CSeries, or they have hinted at going only ATR with both ATR72 and ATR72F('Ohana just bought one), but for now the 717's are the best they can do, and they need more.
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RE: HA Eyes Additional 717 Planes

Thu Dec 10, 2015 2:59 am

Quoting northwestEWR (Reply 20):
Q400s? Surprised it hasn't happened already.

That was my thought as well. Really there is almost nothing left in the category of rugged airplanes being built today, and the Q400 might be the only thing that might fit that bill - although I think even the Q is a stretch.

I think the future of the Hawaiian inter-island fleet will depend on the operational characteristics of the P+W GTF. If it turns out to be highly reliable, I think it will be the obvious choice for HA, and the C Series and the MRJ would become good options as HA 717 replacements. But like others have said, those airplanes are being optimized for much longer segments initially. The question is whether the GTF can reduce fuel burn in cruise and be a good high-cycle engine, or whether it is a more temperamental power plant that is better suited to long thin routes.
 
JHwk
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RE: HA Eyes Additional 717 Planes

Thu Dec 10, 2015 3:04 am

After the short segment issue, you also need to address oversized cargo-- surf boards and golf clubs are a mainstay for HA. I can't see a CRJ, EMB, or Q400 really addressing that issue, unless they could do a combi.
 
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lightsaber
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RE: HA Eyes Additional 717 Planes

Thu Dec 10, 2015 3:21 am

DL has been outbid before on 717s. They know at most what they'll spend.

Quoting LY777 (Reply 6):
The question is: which a/c will HA choose when their 717s are getting too old?

Embraer E2 or MRJ. As much as I like the C-series, they seem to be a distant 3rd. The smaller GTF is a better choice for HA.

Quoting Boeing778X (Reply 12):
Volotea has 19

Voleta is going all Airbus.

Quoting N757ST (Reply 16):
but I'd guess with only 15minute flights these things are flying ~12 segments a day?

I do not know the average, but in peak season, 17 flights per day.

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FWAERJ
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RE: HA Eyes Additional 717 Planes

Thu Dec 10, 2015 3:33 am

Quoting JHwk (Reply 37):
I can't see a CRJ, EMB, or Q400 really addressing that issue, unless they could do a combi.

Bombardier offers a Q400 combi option.
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RE: HA Eyes Additional 717 Planes

Thu Dec 10, 2015 3:36 am

Quoting lightsaber (Reply 38):
Embraer E2 or MRJ. As much as I like the C-series, they seem to be a distant 3rd. The smaller GTF is a better choice for HA.

I'd expect the E2 to be under very close scrutiny by HA. That seems like a potentially good replacement.

Quoting lightsaber (Reply 38):
Quoting Boeing778X (Reply 12):
Volotea has 19

Voleta is going all Airbus.

Those 19 are going to be some of the hottest used airplanes to ever hit the market.
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PA727
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RE: HA Eyes Additional 717 Planes

Thu Dec 10, 2015 4:21 am

How to replace the 717s? Simple. 737 Max 6 or A318 NEO         
 
TrijetsRMissed
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RE: HA Eyes Additional 717 Planes

Thu Dec 10, 2015 4:34 am

Quoting PA727 (Reply 41):
How to replace the 717s? Simple. 737 Max 6 or A318 NEO

Let us know how that works out.  
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DocLightning
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RE: HA Eyes Additional 717 Planes

Thu Dec 10, 2015 4:42 am

Quoting PA727 (Reply 41):
How to replace the 717s? Simple. 737 Max 6 or A318 NEO         

I know you're joking, but even if those aircraft were made: no.

The engines on the 737NG and A320 (and their NEO/MAX replacements) aren't designed for such short cycles and turns. The CFM56, for example, advises a minimum cruise of 5 minutes to achieve thermal equilibrium and avoid differential expansion/contraction that might make parts grind against each-other. But on a flight like HNL-OGG, the entire flight might be as short as 12 minutes. Those kind of repeated thermal stresses on engines meant to fly flights as long as 7 hours would tear them apart in short order. By contrast, the BR715 engines on the 717 are designed for this sort of abuse. The 717 isn't designed to fly more than 2.5 or so hours at a stretch, anyway.
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RE: HA Eyes Additional 717 Planes

Thu Dec 10, 2015 4:49 am

Quoting MD80 (Reply 17):
IIRC, a contract was signed in 2011 between Cobham Aviation Services Australia and Qantas for the Boeing 717s (operated in the livery of "QantasLink") until 2018. Unless a new contract was signed, this could mean that the QantasLink 717s will be available sooner or later?

I wouldn't count on it. QF is now using 717's all over its network and has recently re-fitted a sub-fleet of them into a two class configuration for services into Canberra and Tasmania. These new services, plus the existing services across North Eastern, Northern and Western Australia will keep the QF 717's busy for a long while. Hence why they have acquired more and are actually letting go a couple of 738's in favour of them.
 
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RE: HA Eyes Additional 717 Planes

Thu Dec 10, 2015 5:11 am

Quoting DocLightning (Reply 43):
The engines on the 737NG and A320 (and their NEO/MAX replacements) aren't designed for such short cycles and turns. The CFM56, for example, advises a minimum cruise of 5 minutes to achieve thermal equilibrium and avoid differential expansion/contraction that might make parts grind against each-other. But on a flight like HNL-OGG, the entire flight might be as short as 12 minutes. Those kind of repeated thermal stresses on engines meant to fly flights as long as 7 hours would tear them apart in short order. By contrast, the BR715 engines on the 717 are designed for this sort of abuse. The 717 isn't designed to fly more than 2.5 or so hours at a stretch, anyway.

Thanks for the detail. I recall reading an Aviation Week article a while back, interviewing HA management, and this was a primary issue, maybe more so than the planes themselves. At this point, HA is really stuck, there isn't a good option out there at this time.
 
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RE: HA Eyes Additional 717 Planes

Thu Dec 10, 2015 7:09 am

Quoting TrijetsRMissed (Reply 34):
Probably 15 more years at best for the original deliveries. But not the second hand aircraft that flew routine missions for years. Conceivably, if HA were to back-fill their original fleet (10-12 frames), 2040 operation would not be out of the question.

AQ was still around when HA first picked up the 717 in 2000; back then, the interisland market split was something like 45% HA, 45% AQ, 10% everyone else (WP, MW, Pacific Wings, etc.)

Now HA's market share is about 85-90%, since nearly everyone who used to fly AQ went over to HA. The closest possible competitor would be WP, and they have little other than a pulse for now.
 
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RE: HA Eyes Additional 717 Planes

Thu Dec 10, 2015 7:19 am

Quoting DocLightning (Reply 5):

QF flys them on some pretty long sectors from VERY hot airports, especially in remote WA and NT. They need thel performance of the 717 much more than DL does, to apply your logic.
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RE: HA Eyes Additional 717 Planes

Thu Dec 10, 2015 7:20 am

Someone suggested a split fleet. Would HA consider the CRJ1000 as a 717 replacement? CSERIES would probably be best but I fear they would face the same issue Aloha had when the tried flying 73Gs intraisland where they cooked the engines. And then ATR as a dedicated freighter.

[Edited 2015-12-09 23:30:34]

[Edited 2015-12-09 23:31:21]
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INFINITI329
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RE: HA Eyes Additional 717 Planes

Thu Dec 10, 2015 8:07 am

Quoting roseflyer (Reply 29):

I doubt Delta would try hard to outbid HA. Delta likes the 717 because they are cheap. Delta had no interest in buying them when they were new. Delta looks for used airplanes to get a good deal and keep acquisition prices down. If HA needs them, I believe that they would be willing to pay more.

The DL of 90's is not same DL as today.

Quoting TW870 (Reply 36):
, I think it will be the obvious choice for HA, and the C Series and the MRJ would become good options as HA 717 replacements

I think rear cargo bin would kill the mrj as a contender

Quoting FWAERJ (Reply 39):
Bombardier offers a Q400 combi option.

At the most you will have 68 seats. Not sure if that would cost effective that is almost a 2 for 1 replacement with the 717s

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