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DarkSnowyNight
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RE: HA Eyes Additional 717 Planes

Thu Dec 10, 2015 8:19 am

Quoting northwestEWR (Reply 20):

I doubt it. Expect Delta to be absolutely ruthless against Hawaiian for more 717s.

I don't. DL are a publicly traded company. The whole appeal behind 717s & M90s are that they could be had cheap and were in good shape for the buck. Bidding the cost up to almost what a new large RJ would run doesn't help them anymore than just letting HA have them.

They'll both bid, but it will be reasonable.

Quoting Polot (Reply 22):

I doubt any manufacturer would get 100-200 frames total for a short hop high cycle island hopper narrowbody.

It is an incredibly niche market.

It is. I think we bias toward an airframe solution since that's our bias, but I think there are other solutions available as well.

Just a spit ball, what's to say a new type of leasing agreement can't be the solution? Now that HAL have an effective monopoly on intra island flying, might not something like a two year plan be attractive to all parties?

What HAL get: new planes, dramatic reduction of maintenance costs (elimination of any heavy check costs), good parts pooling, and Dispatch reliability equal to or greater than industry standard.

What a bank/lessor get: aircraft available to market to airlines that may be a bit gunshy toward leasing a lot of new aircraft, gaurunteed continuation of income for new builds rotated out to HAL and the associated bargaining power to OEMs, and enough off lease aircraft to manipulate market value (deciding whether to re-lease or part out a frame, etc...)


My ideas are rough and full of holes, but there's no reason it couldn't happen like that. We seem to assume that just because the 717 is the best choice that it's somehow the only one.

Quoting PassedV1 (Reply 23):

I can get understand why HA wants the 717's so bad, but why does everyone think that Delta does?

Because they have a lot of them now. What we're forgetting (so it seems) is that the 717s came to DL because they could be had for a good price and were also a way to in house a lot of previously regional flying. Now that's been addressed so picking up higher priced frames just because they're there or so HAL won't buy them really doesn't make sense.

Quoting doug_or (Reply 26):

If they have the cash then presumably Hawaiian will pay more because they need them more. Delta didn't buy used MD-90s or 717s because they are magical fairy planes that can operate with nothing more than rainbows and lollipops, they bought hem because they got a deal

Very well said. I fully expect DL to pick up some, but only at a very good price.

Quoting NWAROOSTER (Reply 31):

Delta might just bid on them so Hawaiian has to pay more.   

What does that get DL? Keep in mind, DL does have a relationship with HAL now. That A330 work they do is not an inconsequential amount of income. Nor is it without competition. While HAL likely wouldn't get bent out of shape over a bid up against DL if there was a genuine need, DL doing that 'just cuz' would probably cost them more than it was worth. Shareholders hate that.

Quoting cschleic (Reply 45):
I recall reading an Aviation Week article a while back, interviewing HA management, and this was a primary issue, maybe more so than the planes themselves. At this point, HA is really stuck, there isn't a good option out there at this time.

It's an issue (and maybe someone who writes more than just seven or eight power plant EOs a year can chime in), but as presented by Doc, near dramatically overstated.

Keep in mind that while abusive, that many daily cycles overall also mean that an engine isn't fully cooling down between cycles either. There are more thermal variances than what's ideal, but this daily parade of shocks isn't exactly the case. While that in and of itself doesn't solve the issue, the idea that CFM56s will become unmanageable in that circumstance is a little far fetched.

What actually is a problem are things like reduced on wing time and tighter intervals for inspections and component replacement. These make an engine more obviously expensive to operate (along with other things like reducing the amount of cycles between Compressor Washes), but it's not a show stopper. The BRs they use now, IIRC, are also on a different program than what DL & T5 utilize.

And as for the airframe situation modeled above, no reason a bank/lessor couldn't do the same for engines.

One day, HAL will have to replace their 717s regardless. They're not going to have the luxury of telling themselves they can't do it for this or that. They'll just have to push a way through.
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RE: HA Eyes Additional 717 Planes

Thu Dec 10, 2015 8:43 am

Quoting infiniti329 (Reply 8):
The question is can they outbid DL
Quoting northwestEWR (Reply 20):
I doubt it. Expect Delta to be absolutely ruthless against Hawaiian for more 717s.

I am not sure why everyone assumes DL wants an unlimited number of 717's. I believe they were bought to fulfill a specific mission - and could be bought cheaply from WN, who didn't want to nee-Airtran planes.

Remember DL was hoping (and I imagine still hopes) to add the new-generation E-jets to fulfill those tasks in the future.

Quoting PassedV1 (Reply 23):
I can get understand why HA wants the 717's so bad, but why does everyone think that Delta does? I know they'll take them if they can get them economically, but HA needs them more...it's one thing for a 737 to do a short hop every once in a while, but to have a short hop geographically isolated route structure takes the need for having a 717 specifically to a whole new level. Delta does have a different cost/revenue structure so may be able to pay more but if it comes down to who wants the plane more I don't see how Delta wins.

  

Quoting roseflyer (Reply 29):
I doubt Delta would try hard to outbid HA. Delta likes the 717 because they are cheap. Delta had no interest in buying them when they were new. Delta looks for used airplanes to get a good deal and keep acquisition prices down. If HA needs them, I believe that they would be willing to pay more.

      Of course, that all depends on what the bid prices are. If HA tried to get more planes ridiculously cheap, DL would undoubtedly swoop-in with a proposal. If prices are higher, though, DL has many other alternative aircraft available - and HA doesn't.

Quoting DarkSnowyNight (Reply 50):
What we're forgetting (so it seems) is that the 717s came to DL because they could be had for a good price and were also a way to in house a lot of previously regional flying. Now that's been addressed so picking up higher priced frames just because they're there or so HAL won't buy them really doesn't make sense.

        
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BHXLOVER
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RE: HA Eyes Additional 717 Planes

Thu Dec 10, 2015 11:03 am

HA has 18.

Are they all heavily used or is there some slack?
 
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lightsaber
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RE: HA Eyes Additional 717 Planes

Thu Dec 10, 2015 12:31 pm

Quoting roseflyer (Reply 29):
I doubt Delta would try hard to outbid HA. Delta likes the 717 because they are cheap. Delta had no interest in buying them when they were new. Delta looks for used airplanes to get a good deal and keep acquisition prices down. If HA needs them, I believe that they would be willing to pay more.

That needs to be reinforced. DL is routinely outbid on 717s.

To others:
DL bids on other airframes. They buy what makes sense. They only buy 717s when it is a good deal. While 717 bid prices have increased, they are more in line with the aircraft age.

Quoting cschleic (Reply 45):
HA is really stuck, there isn't a good option out there at this time.

Not yet. They need a proven design due to their high cycle count. But the MRJ-1000, if ever built, would be good for their needs. They could use E-190s or E2-190s at a lower utilization. That would increase costs per passenger...

Quoting infiniti329 (Reply 49):
I think rear cargo bin would kill the mrj as a contender

Why, is HA against quick turn times? The loading and unloading of luggage will be much faster.

Quoting BHXLOVER (Reply 52):
Are they all heavily used or is there some slack?

During the busy season, they are the most intensely used fleet out there. 17 and sometimes up to 19 flights for each plane per day (the current record). During the low season, some years HA will 'stop clock' the 717s and park them in the desert to save funds. Some years they fly year round, but lower utilization in low season. In terms of cycles per day, there is no other airline that comes close to HA's utilization.

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texl1649
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RE: HA Eyes Additional 717 Planes

Thu Dec 10, 2015 12:50 pm

I don't think they'll be leaving the islands this time. HA does the checks there now (unlike w dc9 days) and the ingenious ferry tank system to get them to California is expensive to store them for a few months.
 
SKAirbus
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RE: HA Eyes Additional 717 Planes

Thu Dec 10, 2015 3:34 pm

Could HA try and source some second-hand 737-600s or A318s to add capacity? Although I'm not sure how well suited they are to their very short hops.
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RE: HA Eyes Additional 717 Planes

Thu Dec 10, 2015 4:09 pm

Quoting skairbus (Reply 55):
Could HA try and source some second-hand 737-600s or A318s to add capacity? Although I'm not sure how well suited they are to their very short hops.

IMO, both types are totally unsuitable for the profiles flown by the 717s of Hawaiian.

There would be no advantages to operate either one of these types.

Quoting Sydscott (Reply 44):
I wouldn't count on it. QF is now using 717's all over its network and has recently re-fitted a sub-fleet of them into a two class configuration for services into Canberra and Tasmania. These new services, plus the existing services across North Eastern, Northern and Western Australia will keep the QF 717's busy for a long while. Hence why they have acquired more and are actually letting go a couple of 738's in favour of them.

Thanks for your reply.

Quoting lightsaber (Reply 53):
During the busy season, they are the most intensely used fleet out there. 17 and sometimes up to 19 flights for each plane per day (the current record).

That´s amazing. I would be pleased to see a flight-schedule for up to 19 flights per day.  

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RE: HA Eyes Additional 717 Planes

Thu Dec 10, 2015 5:08 pm

Quoting MavyWavyATR (Reply 7):
When the 717's are no longer serviceable, HA will have to choose a 100 seater that is ideally suited for the job of high cycles and short turnaround times. The problem is...there's no such airplane yet on the market

Except for the SSJ - though I'm not entirely certain how fuel burn is re: next generation 100 seaters like the E2 or C-Series. With the recent CityJet order and the Interjet operations going well (no news is good news in this world, right?), it could well be a contender as it gains a good reputation for some Western operators.
 
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RE: HA Eyes Additional 717 Planes

Thu Dec 10, 2015 5:41 pm

Quoting lightsaber (Reply 53):
Why, is HA against quick turn times? The loading and unloading of luggage will be much faster.

Surfboards can be an issue witht the mrj set up

Quoting skairbus (Reply 55):

Could HA try and source some second-hand 737-600s or A318s to add capacity? Although I'm not sure how well suited they are to their very short hops.

This could be very well be an option. Honestly the A318s would win because it would simply costs for HA. I'm pretty sure whatever tweaks are necessary to make it cost effective for the HA model Airbus would cut HA a good deal.
 
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RE: HA Eyes Additional 717 Planes

Thu Dec 10, 2015 7:25 pm

Quoting alfa164 (Reply 51):
Remember DL was hoping (and I imagine still hopes) to add the new-generation E-jets to fulfill those tasks in the future.

Only because they can't get more 717s--they aren't being made anymore.

Even the most expensive 717 bid will still be cheaper than adding a new fleet type and the per frame cost of a new E-Jet should still be higher than a used 717.
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RickNRoll
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RE: HA Eyes Additional 717 Planes

Thu Dec 10, 2015 10:50 pm

Quoting Sydscott (Reply 44):
I wouldn't count on it. QF is now using 717's all over its network and has recently re-fitted a sub-fleet of them into a two class configuration for services into Canberra and Tasmania. These new services, plus the existing services across North Eastern, Northern and Western Australia will keep the QF 717's busy for a long while. Hence why they have acquired more and are actually letting go a couple of 738's in favour of them.

Those 717s to Canberra would be the ones that are always booked out at peak times. Qantas is just being lazy.
 
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JetBuddy
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RE: HA Eyes Additional 717 Planes

Thu Dec 10, 2015 11:13 pm

The Long Beach plant is about to be closed. Get the MD-95 tooling out of storage and squeeze out a few more 717s. Problem solved.  

But seriously, the MD-95/717 will most likely get the extension for cycles and hours that the other MD products have gotten. There's no reason to believe it's any less solid than it's other DC-9 siblings. Also, the BR715 engine is one of the few engines that can handle these short hops. I've read somewhere that the new GTF engines might be able to do it as well, so an A319neo order somewhere in the future might be an option. HA has previously stated that they intend to keep their 717 as long as possible though.
 
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PA727
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RE: HA Eyes Additional 717 Planes

Fri Dec 11, 2015 12:01 am

Quoting DocLightning (Reply 43):
I know you're joking, but even if those aircraft were made: no.

The engines on the 737NG and A320 (and their NEO/MAX replacements) aren't designed for such short cycles and turns. The CFM56, for example, advises a minimum cruise of 5 minutes to achieve thermal equilibrium and avoid differential expansion/contraction that might make parts grind against each-other. But on a flight like HNL-OGG, the entire flight might be as short as 12 minutes. Those kind of repeated thermal stresses on engines meant to fly flights as long as 7 hours would tear them apart in short order. By contrast, the BR715 engines on the 717 are designed for this sort of abuse. The 717 isn't designed to fly more than 2.5 or so hours at a stretch, anyway.

Doc - Absolutely. My tongue was planted firmly in my cheek  

On a serious note, thank you for the detail, it's quite informative. And it also helps highlight how "size matters" isn't the only consideration.
 
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RE: HA Eyes Additional 717 Planes

Fri Dec 11, 2015 12:55 am

Quoting DarkSnowyNight (Reply 50):
Quoting alfa164 (Reply 51):
Quoting lightsaber (Reply 53):

Of course DL would love to get more 717s for cheap. But if they think there will be opportunities for such in the next 5 years, they're delusional. I'm sure it's understood within the rank and file that the WN deal was a once in a generation agreement. The fact that DL paid $45m for three Blue1 717s is evidence that they are willing to pay the market rate to further shore up the fleet.

This is not to say that DL will acquire every remaining non-HA 717 as they become available. Or go in as the highest bidder every time. But I have said all along that an active fleet of ~120 is in their future (my opinion). That means approx. 2/3rds of the used market to DL, 1/3rd to HA, over the next 5-10 years.

Quoting northwestEWR (Reply 40):
Those 19 are going to be some of the hottest used airplanes to ever hit the market.

If HA were able to acquire most of the YX frames, you could literally table this 717 replacement debate for another 25 years. No joke.

Quoting JetBuddy (Reply 61):
But seriously, the MD-95/717 will most likely get the extension for cycles and hours that the other MD products have gotten.

They did receive the 110k cycle/110k flight hour life extension. Of all the modern airliners in the sky (Airbus, Boeing, Embraer, Bombardier, etc.), only the MD-90 has a longer shelf life with 110k cycle/150k flight hours.

[Edited 2015-12-10 17:26:13]
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JetBuddy
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RE: HA Eyes Additional 717 Planes

Fri Dec 11, 2015 1:10 am

Quoting TrijetsRMissed (Reply 63):
They did receive the 110k cycle/110k flight hour life extension. Of all the modern airliners in the sky (Airbus, Boeing, Embraer, Bombardier, etc.), only the MD-90 has a longer shelf life with 110k cycle/150k flight hours.

Nice, I missed that. Was as expected.  
 
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RE: HA Eyes Additional 717 Planes

Fri Dec 11, 2015 1:59 am

Quoting skairbus (Reply 55):
Could HA try and source some second-hand 737-600s or A318s to add capacity? Although I'm not sure how well suited they are to their very short hops.
Quoting infiniti329 (Reply 58):
This could be very well be an option. Honestly the A318s would win because it would simply costs for HA. I'm pretty sure whatever tweaks are necessary to make it cost effective for the HA model Airbus would cut HA a good deal.

All I can say is...it won't happen. Sure the A318 might help HA with fleet commonality and reduce expenses regarding maintenance and crew; however, that particular plane is not designed for what HA needs (ie; high cycles, short turnaround times).
Mr. Dunkerley has stated on numerous occasions that the airline doesn't see anything on the market at the moment that can equal the 717's abilities on Inter-Island routes.
 
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RE: HA Eyes Additional 717 Planes

Fri Dec 11, 2015 5:57 am

Quoting EddieDude (Reply 9):
Maybe C-Series? Embraer E2s?

The big question is, which of the two would be able to handle Hawaiian flying better?
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deltadawg
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RE: HA Eyes Additional 717 Planes

Sat Dec 12, 2015 4:19 am

Quoting MavyWavyATR (Reply 65):
Mr. Dunkerley has stated on numerous occasions that the airline doesn't see anything on the market at the moment that can equal the 717's abilities on Inter-Island routes.

To me and others it seems the CSeries is the best fit but true it seems to fit best in longer thinner routes for the 100-130 passenger routes over 3-4 hours. However, with HA's time schedule and what is on the marketplace could it be that the next best thing is the ARJ21? The only derivative of the MD lineage today but with obvious hurdles to overcome, still has to prove itself in China but also must convince the West that it is worthy. I know it is a long shot but perhaps in the next 8-10 years it could slip in somehow. In the end it will end up either C100's or E195-E2's!
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RE: HA Eyes Additional 717 Planes

Sat Dec 12, 2015 2:24 pm

Quoting Boeing778X (Reply 15):
They operated a 35+ year old DC-9-50s until last year.

I flew a Northwest DC-9 a few years ago that was 43 years old.
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DeltaMD95
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RE: HA Eyes Additional 717 Planes

Sun Dec 13, 2015 12:39 am

Quoting Sydscott (Reply 44):
I wouldn't count on it. QF is now using 717's all over its network and has recently re-fitted a sub-fleet of them into a two class configuration for services into Canberra and Tasmania. These new services, plus the existing services across North Eastern, Northern and Western Australia will keep the QF 717's busy for a long while. Hence why they have acquired more and are actually letting go a couple of 738's in favour of them.

Interesting insight, thanks for sharing. If you had to guess, how long do you think they will remain active with QF?

It's too bad Qantas was not involved before the line closed. And order from a blue-chip customer could have helped to the program.

Quoting lightsaber (Reply 53):
During the busy season, they are the most intensely used fleet out there. 17 and sometimes up to 19 flights for each plane per day (the current record).

That's incredible. Is this unmatched in the history of the jet age?

Quoting TrijetsRMissed (Reply 63):
They did receive the 110k cycle/110k flight hour life extension. Of all the modern airliners in the sky (Airbus, Boeing, Embraer, Bombardier, etc.), only the MD-90 has a longer shelf life with 110k cycle/150k flight hours.

Interesting point about the MD-90. Maybe that's why Delta is parting out the Eva aircraft; they are planning for years down the road.
Did you know that a Boeing 717-200 is really a McDonnell Douglas MD95-30? ;-)
 
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MD80
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RE: HA Eyes Additional 717 Planes

Sun Dec 13, 2015 1:32 am

Quoting DeltaMD95 (Reply 69):
It's too bad Qantas was not involved before the line closed. And order from a blue-chip customer could have helped to the program

IIRC, Qantas had some sort of plans to expand the Boeing 717-fleet significantly after the airline inherited the ops of Impulse Airlines. The Boeing 717 was (at the first sight) seen as an "orphan" but Qantas very quickly spoke extremely positive about the 717. I was really impressed at the time because Qantas "had no reason" to speak in such a positive way about the Boeing 717.

Sadly, no additional Boeing 717s were ordered and Qantas even shifted the 717 to Jetstar for some time prior to their "re-introduction" as part of QantasLink. After that, the fleet grew through used aircraft as we all know.

Quoting DeltaMD95 (Reply 69):
That's incredible. Is this unmatched in the history of the jet age?

Really incredible!

BTW, the Boeing 717 of Hawaiian Airlines are being re-configured to seat 128 passengers. I haven´t seen the layout yet (only the old one for 123 (F8Y115). Is there any source?

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azjubilee
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RE: HA Eyes Additional 717 Planes

Sun Dec 13, 2015 4:01 am

Quoting MD80 (Reply 70):
BTW, the Boeing 717 of Hawaiian Airlines are being re-configured to seat 128 passengers. I haven´t seen the layout yet (only the old one for 123 (F8Y115). Is there any source?

The re-configuration project was just completed. All 18 planes are now in a 8F/120Y configuration. The additional seats yielded an extra 125 seats across the entire fleet, which means HAL effectively gained an extra airplane at the end of the project.
 
flyDTW1992
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RE: HA Eyes Additional 717 Planes

Sun Dec 13, 2015 4:21 am

Slightly off-topic, but with flights on the order of 10-20 minutes, what makes anyone want to use air travel on inter-island routes? Are high-speed ferries not a far, far more economical option for at least the shortest of the routes?

Forgive me, I've never been to Hawaii so I'm not familiar with the intricacies.
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MavyWavyATR
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RE: HA Eyes Additional 717 Planes

Sun Dec 13, 2015 4:44 am

Quoting flyDTW1992 (Reply 72):
Slightly off-topic, but with flights on the order of 10-20 minutes, what makes anyone want to use air travel on inter-island routes? Are high-speed ferries not a far, far more economical option for at least the shortest of the routes?

Mainly because it's the only way to get around in Hawaii (the major islands that is). A high speed ferry used to exist a few years ago, but they went bankrupt shortly after they started.

A Hawaiian 717 tends to provide a customer with a more pleasant (and more stable) experience compared to a high speed ferry. The waters in between each of the Hawaiian islands are mainly open ocean and the weather sometimes can cause them to get extremely rough, thus leading to a choppy ride on the ferry and seasickness.

Also, the travel times between a high speed ferry and a Hawaiian 717 are extremely different. Despite the ferry being 'high speed' (the late Superferry did 40 kts.), it actually takes them 3 hours to do HNL-OGG one way; compared to 15-20 minutes one way by the 717.
 
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RE: HA Eyes Additional 717 Planes

Sun Dec 13, 2015 8:28 am

Quoting DarkSnowyNight (Reply 50):
While that in and of itself doesn't solve the issue, the idea that CFM56s will become unmanageable in that circumstance is a little far fetched.

I was a little dramatic, but you could see a significant decrease in time between major service and time on-wing with a concomitant increase in maintenance expenditures. Not a show-stopper, but also not good business. The BR715 is meant for this sort of punishment and the turns are short, but not so short that the parts of the engine that normally glow orange in operation won't cool down to a deep cherry red if not to no visible radiation.

The fact remains that a HA 717 might spend 12-45 minutes in the air and then 30 minutes on the ground. 5-15 times in a day.

There just isn't another jet airliner that is put through that kind of workload.
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rta
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RE: HA Eyes Additional 717 Planes

Sun Dec 13, 2015 8:48 am

How would a propeller plane do these inter-Hawaiian routes?
 
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DarkSnowyNight
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RE: HA Eyes Additional 717 Planes

Sun Dec 13, 2015 4:14 pm

Quoting TrijetsRMissed (Reply 63):

Of course DL would love to get more 717s for cheap. But if they think there will be opportunities for such in the next 5 years, they're delusional

And I think I agree with that. I was just supposing that if the opportunity came along, DL would go for it.

Quoting DocLightning (Reply 74):
but you could see a significant decrease in time between major service and time on-wing with a concomitant increase in maintenance expenditures.

Not necessarily, but that's because you're saying two different things there. The cost will certainly be higher, but significant deviations between on wing times will depend on a variety of factors. There are a host of MX procedures that have soft deadlines, not only on the powerplants themselves, but on the associated componentry as well.

There's actually a lot that can be done for engines without total removal or significant reductions of on wing time, but most of that isn't worth going into on a.net. What matters most for that is what program HAL happens to have their BR715s on (Or to the specifications of whomever they lease them from). While I'm confidant they have that optimized to their needs, I would be equally so that they would be able to do so with most other types as well.

I think the most likely reason they operate the 717s is that they are the least expensive option to do so as a big picture matter; not that any one (and easily interchangable) factor dictates that.

Quoting DocLightning (Reply 74):
Not a show-stopper, but also not good business. The BR715 is meant for this sort of punishment and the turns are short, but not so short that the parts of the engine that normally glow orange in operation won't cool down to a deep cherry red if not to no visible radiation.

Right. No engine is "meant" for abuse, and there's no doubt that HAL's Operational Specifications push the limits there. But on a 30 minute turn in a warm environment, a lot of those metals will indeed retain enough heat that that is not the same as a cold start, 19 times a day. Again, not great for any engine, but enough monitoring will keep any of them aloft.

Having that been said, I'm weary of speculating too much further, since that involves specifics I (and sure as hell a.net) don't have access to. I know a lot about how HAL run their long haul ops WRT their A330s, but specific knowledge about what they do for their 717s isn't available here. I mention that as it's quite likely (given the usage) that their MX program for the 717 is not what you'd see at any other operator.

While the -715 is probably the most optimal powerplant for this mission, there's no reason a program couldn't be made for one of the several CFM variants, should the eventual need arise.

Quoting DocLightning (Reply 74):
There just isn't another jet airliner that is put through that kind of workload.

No doubt. But that doesn't mean there couldn't be. It's just the deal now. The day will come when they'll have to figure a replacement out.
Well, you know what they say. Whatever doesn't kill you...
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aloha73g
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RE: HA Eyes Additional 717 Planes

Sun Dec 13, 2015 7:48 pm

Quoting flyDTW1992 (Reply 72):
Are high-speed ferries not a far, far more economical option for at least the shortest of the routes?
Quoting MavyWavyATR (Reply 73):
A Hawaiian 717 tends to provide a customer with a more pleasant (and more stable) experience compared to a high speed ferry. The waters in between each of the Hawaiian islands are mainly open ocean and the weather sometimes can cause them to get extremely rough, thus leading to a choppy ride on the ferry and seasickness.

I rode the Superferry to Maui with my family and it was truly the most miserable 3 hour of my life. There were people vomiting everywhere. It was disgusting and so awful that we all decided to fly home on an HA...honestly, the best decision we ever made. The sound and smell of people throwing up for 2+ hours was .... I don't know what to say.

Granted, we did go in the winter--which is rougher--and the first 30 minutes (south of Oahu) when the seas were calm was pleasant, as was the portion where Molokai blocked the waves....BUT the two channels (between O'ahu and Molokai; and Moloka'i and Maui) were the pits!!

NEVER AGAIN!!

The channels between the islands and open ocean. They are very rough. That is why flying is the better option. Back in the 20s and 30s my grandpa used ferry's to go between Oahu and Maui for school and he always said that a ferry was a bad idea when you could just fly!

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KD5MDK
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RE: HA Eyes Additional 717 Planes

Sun Dec 13, 2015 11:46 pm

Rail tunnel  

If HA can get 717s that support their operations for another 10-15 years, that's plenty of time for the market to change and take a look at what's available then. SSJ200? Bombardier Q500? ATR-102? MRJ++, we don't know what will be available then.
 
Sevensixtyseven
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RE: HA Eyes Additional 717 Planes

Mon Dec 14, 2015 5:12 am

I'm of the firm belief that the Sukhoi Superjet may be a good candidate for the punishing schedules Hawaiian flies. I don't know how much Interjet is able to get out of them, but they appear to be highly satisfied. By my calculation, Hawaiian will be flying an approximate 140-145 interisland flights with the current 18 717s, to keep the same amount of roundtrip seats available, 18 thousand/day, there would need to be 24-26 SSJs in a 93 seat configuration flying approximately 190-200 flights a day. I know Hawaiian isn't using all 18 717s at a time, but this was my best "back of the napkin" estimate on how many jets HA would need to maintain the current levels of service if they're unable to get any more 717s.
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KD5MDK
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RE: HA Eyes Additional 717 Planes

Mon Dec 14, 2015 5:18 am

I wonder if HA's limited local service coverage is an advantage for niche aircraft like the SSJ. If someone like AS or UA was operating it, they'd need spare parts all over the continent to cover failures. For HA, they could stock the common parts at all their islands, and have the rarer ones sent over on the next flight in 30 minutes.
 
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RE: HA Eyes Additional 717 Planes

Mon Dec 14, 2015 6:13 am

Quoting infiniti329 (Reply 58):
Surfboards can be an issue witht the mrj set up

Interesting... I'll have to think about that... I think there is room for a few still... but I'll have to look into it.

Quoting TrijetsRMissed (Reply 63):
I'm sure it's understood within the rank and file that the WN deal was a once in a generation agreement. The fact that DL paid $45m for three Blue1 717s is evidence that they are willing to pay the market rate to further shore up the fleet.

That implies DL is bidding 'aggressively' to usually win 717s. But in effect, there are only 3 potential buyers now that volotea is going to Airbus.

Quoting gdg9 (Reply 68):
I flew a Northwest DC-9 a few years ago that was 43 years old.

Older, but only HA has pushed to right before the 100k cycle limit.

Quoting DeltaMD95 (Reply 69):
That's incredible. Is this unmatched in the history of the jet age?

AFAIK. Airtran with their 717s hit 14 per day, but again, seasonal surge (not year round).

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superjeff
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RE: HA Eyes Additional 717 Planes

Mon Dec 14, 2015 5:22 pm

Quoting flyDTW1992 (Reply 72):
Slightly off-topic, but with flights on the order of 10-20 minutes, what makes anyone want to use air travel on inter-island routes? Are high-speed ferries not a far, far more economical option for at least the shortest of the routes?

Forgive me, I've never been to Hawaii so I'm not familiar with the intricacies.

to do anything by ferry is next to impossible in Hawaii due to environmental concerns. They tried the "SuperFerry" a couple of years ago operating Honolulu-Maui, and tried to add Honolulu-Kauai, but the environmentalists fought and they never got authority to dock in Kauai. Even if they had, the time for a trip Honolulu to either Kauai or Maui would be about 3-4 hours each way; to the Big Island of Hawaii, it would be roughly twice that. Block times of 35-40 minutes for interisland flights may include in-air time of 15-20 minutes, but there are no viable alternatives to flying between the islands at this point in time.

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