|Quoting northwestEWR (Reply 20):|
I doubt it. Expect Delta to be absolutely ruthless against Hawaiian for more 717s.
I don't. DL are a publicly traded company. The whole appeal behind 717s & M90s are that they could be had cheap and were in good shape for the buck. Bidding the cost up to almost what a new large RJ would run doesn't help them anymore than just letting HA have them.
They'll both bid, but it will be reasonable.
|Quoting Polot (Reply 22):|
I doubt any manufacturer would get 100-200 frames total for a short hop high cycle island hopper narrowbody.
It is an incredibly niche market.
It is. I think we bias toward an airframe solution since that's our bias, but I think there are other solutions available as well.
Just a spit ball, what's to say a new type of leasing agreement can't be the solution? Now that HAL have an effective monopoly on intra island flying, might not something like a two year plan be attractive to all parties?
What HAL get: new planes, dramatic reduction of maintenance costs (elimination of any heavy check costs), good parts pooling, and Dispatch reliability equal to or greater than industry standard.
What a bank/lessor get: aircraft available to market to airlines that may be a bit gunshy toward leasing a lot of new aircraft, gaurunteed continuation of income for new builds rotated out to HAL and the associated bargaining power to OEMs, and enough off lease aircraft to manipulate market value (deciding whether to re-lease or part out a frame, etc...)
My ideas are rough and full of holes, but there's no reason it couldn't happen like that. We seem to assume that just because the 717 is the best choice that it's somehow the only one.
|Quoting PassedV1 (Reply 23):|
I can get understand why HA wants the 717's so bad, but why does everyone think that Delta does?
Because they have a lot of them now. What we're forgetting (so it seems) is that the 717s came to DL because they could be had for a good price and were also a way to in house a lot of previously regional flying. Now that's been addressed so picking up higher priced frames just because they're there or so HAL won't buy them really doesn't make sense.
|Quoting doug_or (Reply 26):|
If they have the cash then presumably Hawaiian will pay more because they need them more. Delta didn't buy used MD-90s or 717s because they are magical fairy planes that can operate with nothing more than rainbows and lollipops, they bought hem because they got a deal
Very well said. I fully expect DL to pick up some, but only at a very good price.
|Quoting NWAROOSTER (Reply 31):|
Delta might just bid on them so Hawaiian has to pay more.
What does that get DL? Keep in mind, DL does have a relationship with HAL now. That A330 work they do is not an inconsequential amount of income. Nor is it without competition. While HAL likely wouldn't get bent out of shape over a bid up against DL if there was a genuine need, DL doing that 'just cuz' would probably cost them more than it was worth. Shareholders hate that.
|Quoting cschleic (Reply 45):|
I recall reading an Aviation Week article a while back, interviewing HA management, and this was a primary issue, maybe more so than the planes themselves. At this point, HA is really stuck, there isn't a good option out there at this time.
It's an issue (and maybe someone who writes more than just seven or eight power plant EOs a year can chime in), but as presented by Doc, near dramatically overstated.
Keep in mind that while abusive, that many daily cycles overall also mean that an engine isn't fully cooling down between cycles either. There are more thermal variances than what's ideal, but this daily parade of shocks isn't exactly the case. While that in and of itself doesn't solve the issue, the idea that CFM56s will become unmanageable in that circumstance is a little far fetched.
What actually is a problem are things like reduced on wing time and tighter intervals for inspections and component replacement. These make an engine more obviously expensive to operate (along with other things like reducing the amount of cycles between Compressor Washes), but it's not a show stopper. The BRs they use now, IIRC, are also on a different program than what DL & T5 utilize.
And as for the airframe situation modeled above, no reason a bank/lessor couldn't do the same for engines.
One day, HAL will have to replace their 717s regardless. They're not going to have the luxury of telling themselves they can't do it for this or that. They'll just have to push a way through.