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karungguni
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MH 370 Had Electrical Failure

Wed Dec 09, 2015 9:29 pm

Article today on Daily Beast. First assertion I have seen as to a cause for the crash. Please delete if this is being discussed elsewhere.

http://www.thedailybeast.com/article...?via=newsletter&source=DDAfternoon
 
cedarjet
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RE: MH 370 Had Electrical Failure

Wed Dec 09, 2015 9:35 pm

Can't imagine an electrical failure that would doom the flight to meandering out into the ocean — but power the satellite comms to keep pinging each hour. I never thought the pilots were involved, but this doesn't make much sense either.
fly Saha Air 707s daily from Tehran's downtown Mehrabad to Mashhad, Kish Island and Ahwaz
 
Gasman
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RE: MH 370 Had Electrical Failure

Wed Dec 09, 2015 9:59 pm

This is highly irresponsible reporting.

It's being put forward as fact, whereas it's nothing more than (yet another) educated guess about what happened. The truth is we have no clue what happened to MH370.
 
solarflyer22
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RE: MH 370 Had Electrical Failure

Thu Dec 10, 2015 2:50 am

I read this and it seemed to make sense to me because the handshake/logons were not evenly spaced apparently. Its supposed to be every hour on the dot. But, we know (I think) that at least one of those was out of place because something caused the electrical system to reboot. The reboot cycles I think they had strong proof of. It seems really unlikely that this would happen due to any pilot action (pulling all the fuses and knocking out the other pilot is unlikely) so it looks like there is some kind of anomaly with the power system. We also know that a few hundred pounds of lithium batteries were in the front hold. Its plausible there is a connection but as you send its barely a working theory.

It did sound like from the other thread, we can also say confidently that the engines ran till fuel exhaustion. Certainly sounds like a ghost flight imo.

DB is a terrible outlet though. Some of their reporting is just junk. Its so bad and biased, I actually took the time to email them once.
 
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IslandRob
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RE: MH 370 Had Electrical Failure

Thu Dec 10, 2015 3:15 am

So an electrical failure somehow turned the jet around, carefully navigated it through Indonesian airspace, and then took it deep into the southern Indian Ocean. That's amazing. -ir
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zeke
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RE: MH 370 Had Electrical Failure

Thu Dec 10, 2015 3:51 am

Quoting IslandRob (Reply 4):

It is however entirely possible, they could have removed the different power sources and packs to isolate smoke.
Human rights lawyers are "ambulance chasers of the very worst kind.'" - Sky News
 
karungguni
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RE: MH 370 Had Electrical Failure

Thu Dec 10, 2015 4:34 am

Quoting IslandRob (Reply 4):

That is the biggest problem I have with any theory without human intervention. The plane came back across Malaysia short of the transfer to Vietnam to the south of problematic Patani in Thailand and then north of problematic Aceh in Indonesia and then made a turn south over the Indian Andaman Islands with no local radar coverage. Too many coincidental threading of the needle.
 
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TheRedBaron
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RE: MH 370 Had Electrical Failure

Thu Dec 10, 2015 5:11 am

If this turns to be true, Illl put a statue of PIHERO in my garden. Back in the first 15 or so threads he entertained a failure due to liquid spill or fire in the cockpit that made the flight be almost uncontrollable and then flew without intervention to the middle of the SIO.

The plot thickens...

TRB
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7BOEING7
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RE: MH 370 Had Electrical Failure

Thu Dec 10, 2015 5:13 am

Quoting gasman (Reply 2):
This is highly irresponsible reporting.

  

The "pilot did it" or alternatively a terrorist did it are still just as plausible as many other valid theories put forward so far. Diego Garcia and somewhere in Asia are not valid.

The lithium ion batteries theory sounds good but you'd have a fire warning long before the radios were knocked out and you'd be talking to somebody because you're looking for a place to land. Say they couldn't talk to anybody and the pilots became incapacitated, the same fire that knpocked out the radios would have also taken out the autopilot and the airplane wouldn't have continued flying for 6+ hours.

Quoting zeke (Reply 5):
It is however entirely possible, they could have removed the different power sources and packs to isolate smoke.

Turning off packs is part of the checklist (Smoke, Fire or Fumes) but removing power (except for IFE and Cabin Utility) is not unless you have identified the source.
 
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7BOEING7
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RE: MH 370 Had Electrical Failure

Thu Dec 10, 2015 5:38 am

Quoting TheRedBaron (Reply 7):
If this turns to be true, Illl put a statue of PIHERO in my garden. Back in the first 15 or so threads he entertained a failure due to liquid spill or fire in the cockpit that made the flight be almost uncontrollable and then flew without intervention to the middle of the SIO.

Something for the pigeons to poop on?

Were they drinking "flamethrowers" in the cockpit?

A liquid spill was an issue for Rod Taylor in "Fate Is The Hunter" in 1964 but this was not a 1950's airplane. A fire is totally plausible if you can find something to burn but oxygen is your only choice and if you had an Egypt Air event the odds of the airplane flying for another 6 hours are not at all realistic.
 
B8887
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RE: MH 370 Had Electrical Failure

Thu Dec 10, 2015 5:40 am

MH370 had an electrical failure
MH370 likely had a flameout
MH370 landed in Xinjiang Province
MH370 came down in the 7th Arc
MH370 came down in the 6th Arc
The Captain did it
The First Officer did it
The passengers did it
It came down in the Philippines
Aliens did it
Bomb
Sudden loss of cabin pressure
Catastrophic Structural Failure
Flying low over the Maldives
Flying low over the Andaman Islands
Fishermen saw it
Senior Indonesian military officer knows exactly what happened
Passengers mobile phones were reachable days after the flight
Search area should move 50km West
Search area should move 325km South

As for most people, this tragedy baffles me. I rarely post about MH370, because I just don't know.
I just hope one day we will find out.

Regards.

B8887
 
RedChili
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RE: MH 370 Had Electrical Failure

Thu Dec 10, 2015 11:38 am

Quoting B8887 (Reply 10):
I just hope one day we will find out.

The truth is, of course, that it was done by none other than Elvis Presley! He was in hiding in the Petronas Towers for a number of years, and eventually hijacked MH370 together with a band of Scottish and Texan separatists and a Malaysian woman who has a grudge against the KL government after her cat was run over by a train in 1994.

I have this information from a friend of my neighbor's girlfriend's uncle, whose penpal is a Facebook friend of somebody high up in the CIA.
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britannia25
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RE: MH 370 Had Electrical Failure

Thu Dec 10, 2015 12:21 pm

Red your post just made me laugh! A mad cat woman! Lol.

Who knows what happened. It is a great mystery and one that might not be solved for a long time. With all the technology, I am highly suspicious that a 777 can just vanish.

The worst part is for the families and not knowing what happened to their loved ones!

BY
 
A320FlyGuy
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RE: MH 370 Had Electrical Failure

Thu Dec 10, 2015 2:55 pm

How many times are we going to go over this.....the plane flew through a rip in time and is stuck in the past where the flight keeps reliving the same day over and over again. I heard about this through my MI6 connection who works with a former CIA informant who is married to the cousin of the neighbor of the neice of the sister of the church pastor who has a member of his congregation who is a former member of the Warren commission who was hiding on the grassy knoll in Dallas when Kennedy was shot.

End of mystery.
My other car is an A320-200
 
nordair737242c
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RE: MH 370 Had Electrical Failure

Thu Dec 10, 2015 3:11 pm

Thank you Red for being the true voice of sanity ..... you have our total support behind this theory



conspiracy theory
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euroflyer
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RE: MH 370 Had Electrical Failure

Thu Dec 10, 2015 3:33 pm

Does anyone know the supplier of 772 electrical feeder harnesses ?
Born to fly !
 
art
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RE: MH 370 Had Electrical Failure

Thu Dec 10, 2015 4:12 pm

Quoting gasman (Reply 2):
This is highly irresponsible reporting.

It's being put forward as fact, whereas it's nothing more than (yet another) educated guess about what happened.

Indeed, as per the following

Quote:
First, the theory widely advanced in the early days of the disaster that as a first step to make the airplane “vanish” the pilots switched off the transponder. Nobody switched off anything at that moment—it now appears that a power interruption or failure could have disabled the transponder.

Rubbish reporting. It is speculation that the aircrew switched off/did not switch off the transponder. It is presented as a fact (ie 100% certain) that the aircrew did not switch the transponder off.
 
gzm
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RE: MH 370 Had Electrical Failure

Thu Dec 10, 2015 5:16 pm

What is interesting about mysteries is that they either happen for a reason nobody can imagine or, for a variety of reasons, say three that worked together to make it happen....
 
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seahawk
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RE: MH 370 Had Electrical Failure

Thu Dec 10, 2015 5:47 pm

Could they please pin point the location of the fault? I can not come up with one position in the whole plane that could turn off the transponder, radio and sat phone within minutes, knock out the pilots and yet leave the autopilot and plane controls undamaged or make them do strangely coordinated manoeuvres.

The fact that the plane flew straight and level long enough for all CVR data from the manoeuvre phase to be gone, is another strange coincidence.
 
Curiousflyer
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RE: MH 370 Had Electrical Failure

Thu Dec 10, 2015 6:43 pm

Thread of the day! Love it.

Beware cat ladies! I know a few very well and I would never cross them. The love people can develop for cats is limitless because cats are creatures of Elvis. Many cats have amazing voices and are very creative songwriters. They are also amazing airplane pilots and members of the Cat Guild can fly an A380 from SYD to LHR non-stop, using special corridors that are known to pass near the area MH370 was found in. There are too many coincidences here, and the power of the Cat Guild almost matches that of the Angry Cat Lady. If they wanted to, they could build the Death Star.
 
aerosol
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RE: MH 370 Had Electrical Failure

Thu Dec 10, 2015 6:51 pm

Same as the Germanwings case - someone in the cockpit wanted the specacular ending.

1.) timing of end communication: switch of frequencies
2.) out of a 360 degree compass that bird flies in the oposite direction to were it is expected
3.) the area it goes down is the one least frequented on earth and a deep ocean
4.) due to variation a simple heading select wouldn't have gotten the bird to that area meaning it is flown there on purpose

Sorry but Ockhams razor...
 
lancelot07
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RE: MH 370 Had Electrical Failure

Thu Dec 10, 2015 7:51 pm

To describe a title like "MH 370 Had Electrical Failure" as premature is an understatement, but:

Quoting seahawk (Reply 18):
Could they please pin point the location of the fault? I can not come up with one position in the whole plane that could turn off the transponder, radio and sat phone within minutes, knock out the pilots and yet leave the autopilot and plane controls undamaged or make them do strangely coordinated manoeuvres.

iirc from early threads, at least the controls for transponders and radios are beside each other on the pedestal, the a/p is in another part of the cockpit. Part of Pihero's theory was also that the pilots would not be both completely knocked out for a time. Btw, how long does the oxygen supply for the crew last?

Quoting seahawk (Reply 18):
The fact that the plane flew straight and level long enough for all CVR data from the manoeuvre phase to be gone, is another strange coincidence.

That would be a period of 2 hours? Surprisingly little, imho.
Just wondering: Did they find anything on the CVR from the Helios-Crash, a much shorter flight ?

Quoting 7BOEING7 (Reply 9):
A fire is totally plausible if you can find something to burn but oxygen is your only choice and if you had an Egypt Air event the odds of the airplane flying for another 6 hours are not at all realistic.

For a fire, you need a flammable material as fuel and an oxidant (usually oxygen from the air). Oxygen alone, by itself cannot burn (but many insuspicious materials will burn in pure oxygen).
There have been some horrific fires in non-aviation related cases where no flammable material was supposed to be - but was or has accumulated over time. And most deaths by fire are not caused by the actual fire, but by asyphixation from smoke and fumes, that will also remain there when the fire already has stopped due to lack of fuel.
 
lancelot07
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RE: MH 370 Had Electrical Failure

Thu Dec 10, 2015 8:09 pm

Quoting aerosol (Reply 20):
Same as the Germanwings case - someone in the cockpit wanted the specacular ending.

Then why didn't he go for a spectacular ending ?
- Petronas Towers
- a government building in KUL
- the forbidden city in Peking
and certainly some other spectacular targets along the way. But no, this "somebody" did NOT choose a spectacular ending, he chooses to fly into one of the remotest areas of this world until he runs out of fuel.
AND in contrast to all other somebodys, he flies for many hours instead of putting the nose down at the first opportunity.
AND this "somebody" does it without a motive being discovered in 21 months.
Sorry, this theory has holes in it like Emmentaler cheese.
 
YoungMans
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RE: MH 370 Had Electrical Failure

Thu Dec 10, 2015 8:35 pm

Quoting B8887 (Reply 10):

You forgot to mention Sir Tim Clark's words, where he indicates that he doubts that MH370 is where they say it is.
 
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777Jet
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RE: MH 370 Had Electrical Failure

Thu Dec 10, 2015 10:33 pm

The article's headline:

"""Exclusive: MH370 Was Crippled by Sudden Electrical Failure""""



That wording is nothing more than clickbait and irresponsible reporting.

Whilst the scenario mentioned is one of the many possible ones, at this stage it's still just a possibility...

Quoting gasman (Reply 2):
This is highly irresponsible reporting.

It's being put forward as fact, whereas it's nothing more than (yet another) educated guess about what happened.

  

As well as clickbait...

Quoting karungguni (Reply 6):
That is the biggest problem I have with any theory without human intervention. The plane came back across Malaysia short of the transfer to Vietnam to the south of problematic Patani in Thailand and then north of problematic Aceh in Indonesia and then made a turn south over the Indian Andaman Islands with no local radar coverage. Too many coincidental threading of the needle.

Agreed.

And the threading of the needle began just after the plane went silent right between ATC areas and ended when just the SatCom came back to life as soon as the plane reached another convenient location - an area where radar coverage ended.

Too coincidental...

Quoting TheRedBaron (Reply 7):
If this turns to be true, Illl put a statue of PIHERO in my garden. Back in the first 15 or so threads he entertained a failure due to liquid spill or fire in the cockpit that made the flight be almost uncontrollable and then flew without intervention to the middle of the SIO.

The plot thickens...

The Daily Beast likes you.

Quoting 7BOEING7 (Reply 8):
The "pilot did it" or alternatively a terrorist did it are still just as plausible as many other valid theories put forward so far. Diego Garcia and somewhere in Asia are not valid.

  

Exactly!

Quoting 7BOEING7 (Reply 8):

The lithium ion batteries theory sounds good but you'd have a fire warning long before the radios were knocked out and you'd be talking to somebody because you're looking for a place to land.

  

This is one of the other key points.

Just two minutes before the plane went silent and turned back the highly experienced Captain signed off with ATC with a standard message. No mention of any problem.

I assume that there was no fire / smoke alarm warnings happening at that time he just said "Good Night" to ATC otherwise I think he just might have informed ATC.

So, the fire must have conveniently not bee detected until:

-After the Captain signed off with ATC.

The fire must have spread so quickly that:

-The crew had no time to warn ATC and it was so bad that it made the crew turn back, again without informing ATC, just 2-3 minutes after they signed off.

But this very bad fire that took out electrical systems so quickly and prevented a Mayday call then:

-Allowed the plane to thread the needle of particular airspace until it got to a point where radar coverage ended and the entrance to the SIO was reached.

And then this very bad fire:

-Only resulted in the SatCom being able to come back to life; not the other systems it took out.

-Must have finished off the crew as no more turns were made and the ghost flight commenced.

-And... not damage anything in the plane bad enough to prevent the plane from flying on for hours more - in fact - for pretty much the exact amount of time that it should have flown for with the fuel load.


Some fire!

Quoting 7BOEING7 (Reply 8):
Say they couldn't talk to anybody and the pilots became incapacitated, the same fire that knpocked out the radios would have also taken out the autopilot and the airplane wouldn't have continued flying for 6+ hours.

  

Exactly.

Quoting art (Reply 16):
Quote:
First, the theory widely advanced in the early days of the disaster that as a first step to make the airplane “vanish” the pilots switched off the transponder. Nobody switched off anything at that moment—it now appears that a power interruption or failure could have disabled the transponder.

Rubbish reporting. It is speculation that the aircrew switched off/did not switch off the transponder. It is presented as a fact (ie 100% certain) that the aircrew did not switch the transponder off.

  

Quoting YoungMans (Reply 23):
You forgot to mention Sir Tim Clark's words, where he indicates that he doubts that MH370 is where they say it is.

And is his opinion more valid because he is the CEO of the airline with the world's largest 777 fleet?



[Edited 2015-12-10 14:38:30]
DC10-10/30,MD82/88/90, 717,727,732/3/4/5/7/8/9ER,742/4,752/3,763/ER,772/E/L/3/W,788/9, 306,320,321,332/3,346,359,388
 
RedChili
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RE: MH 370 Had Electrical Failure

Fri Dec 11, 2015 9:46 am

Quoting britannia25 (Reply 12):
Red your post just made me laugh! A mad cat woman! Lol.
Quoting nordair737242c (Reply 14):
Thank you Red for being the true voice of sanity ..... you have our total support behind this theory

Thanks!

But seriously, I'm as baffled by this mystery as most people are. In my opinion, none of the theories presented sound plausible, with a lot of psychological and technical objections to everything. I have a feeling that when/if we ever get to the bottom of this, we will all be surprised that it was some kind of one-in-a-zillionth chance of human intervention and technical problems combining to create a disaster.
Top 10 airplanes: B737, T154, B747, IL96, T134, IL62, A320, MD80, B757, DC10
 
SCQ83
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RE: MH 370 Had Electrical Failure

Fri Dec 11, 2015 10:13 am

Quoting lancelot07 (Reply 22):
Then why didn't he go for a spectacular ending ?
- Petronas Towers
- a government building in KUL
- the forbidden city in Peking
and certainly some other spectacular targets along the way. But no, this "somebody" did NOT choose a spectacular ending, he chooses to fly into one of the remotest areas of this world until he runs out of fuel.
AND in contrast to all other somebodys, he flies for many hours instead of putting the nose down at the first opportunity.
AND this "somebody" does it without a motive being discovered in 21 months.
Sorry, this theory has holes in it like Emmentaler cheese.

I find those threads funny. Everyone and their dog has their "true" theory and everything else is wrong. The thing about the mystery is that pretty much every theory can be very easily desacredited. My favourite is the typical poster who says "he was a pilot, well-off and had a family. That is impossible. Period"

I have the impression that the Malaysian government knows "better". If I am not mistaken, the pilot supported one political opponent that was in prison, so they will know stuff they don't tell the world.

My theory is that it was probably a subtle sign. I guess it comes all down to psychology, some people like to show off, others are more subtle. Also, your attack to the Petronas Tower... well who knows what would happen in Malaysia is that happens. A mess probably. The guy was against the government, not against Malaysia itself as a culture or a country. Very different approach than Al Qaeda targeting an American symbol like the WTC.
 
SCQ83
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RE: MH 370 Had Electrical Failure

Fri Dec 11, 2015 10:15 am

Quoting aerosol (Reply 20):
Same as the Germanwings case - someone in the cockpit wanted the specacular ending.

1.) timing of end communication: switch of frequencies
2.) out of a 360 degree compass that bird flies in the oposite direction to were it is expected
3.) the area it goes down is the one least frequented on earth and a deep ocean
4.) due to variation a simple heading select wouldn't have gotten the bird to that area meaning it is flown there on purpose

Sorry but Ockhams razor...

I agree. But as in Germanwings' case, some people here are stubborn to even think that a pilot could do it. I assume psychological problems (seriously to kill +200 people) + political views = disaster.
 
lancelot07
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RE: MH 370 Had Electrical Failure

Fri Dec 11, 2015 10:31 am

Quoting SCQ83 (Reply 26):
Also, your attack to the Petronas Tower

Petronas is a government-owned company. It is a symbol of the government, first of all.
The thesis was that he did something spectacular. Fact is he didn't.

If all pilots, who don't like their respective governments, crashed their planes, it would be raining planes.
 
aerosol
Posts: 500
Joined: Mon Oct 23, 2000 10:31 pm

RE: MH 370 Had Electrical Failure

Fri Dec 11, 2015 10:44 am

Quoting lancelot07 (Reply 28):
The thesis was that he did something spectacular. Fact is he didn't.

well he houdinied a 777 away and created the biggest mysterie of this millenium, but I don't know by what measurement something is called "spectacular" these days
 
RedChili
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RE: MH 370 Had Electrical Failure

Fri Dec 11, 2015 10:44 am

Quoting SCQ83 (Reply 26):
My theory is that it was probably a subtle sign. I guess it comes all down to psychology, some people like to show off, others are more subtle. Also, your attack to the Petronas Tower... well who knows what would happen in Malaysia is that happens. A mess probably. The guy was against the government, not against Malaysia itself as a culture or a country.

That begs the question: What exactly did he achieve, or what did the government lose, by this subtle sign? Unless they come out publicly and admit it (something which no politician would ever do), they will never lose anything by this subtle sign.

He has not cause any damage to the government at all, but he has caused damage to the country and the taxpayers, because tourism and the economy of the national airline have been affected, and a lot of tax payers money has been spent on search efforts.

If your theory is true, he has accomplished the exact opposite of his intention.
Top 10 airplanes: B737, T154, B747, IL96, T134, IL62, A320, MD80, B757, DC10
 
YoungMans
Posts: 432
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RE: MH 370 Had Electrical Failure

Fri Dec 11, 2015 11:03 am

Quoting 777Jet (Reply 24):
Quoting YoungMans (Reply 23):
You forgot to mention Sir Tim Clark's words, where he indicates that he doubts that MH370 is where they say it is.
And is his opinion more valid because he is the CEO of the airline with the world's largest 777 fleet?

His opinion would be no more valid than others 'Because' he is a CEO.
But ... in his position he almost certainly would have access to information that is not otherwise publicly known or available.
Maybe not even to the investigators, who knows ....
His opinion would definitely be more valid than others if it is based on fact. Albeit, we can't know if it is ....
 
lancelot07
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RE: MH 370 Had Electrical Failure

Fri Dec 11, 2015 11:27 am

Quoting YoungMans (Reply 31):
His opinion would be no more valid than others 'Because' he is a CEO.
But ... in his position he almost certainly would have access to information that is not otherwise publicly known or available.

Actually, his published(!!) opinion is LESS valid because he is CEO of the largest operator of the 777.
He has massive vested interests.

Quoting RedChili (Reply 30):
He has not caused any damage to the government at all, but he has caused damage to the country and the taxpayers, because tourism and the economy of the national airline have been affected, and a lot of tax payers money has been spent on search efforts.

  
 
YoungMans
Posts: 432
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RE: MH 370 Had Electrical Failure

Fri Dec 11, 2015 12:22 pm

Quoting lancelot07 (Reply 32):

Quoting YoungMans (Reply 31):
His opinion would be no more valid than others 'Because' he is a CEO.
But ... in his position he almost certainly would have access to information that is not otherwise publicly known or available.
Actually, his published(!!) opinion is LESS valid because he is CEO of the largest operator of the 777.
He has massive vested interests.

Maybe so or maybe not; whether his opinion is more valid or less, and why, could be debated.
But you didn't address a much more important point:
Would T/C have access to information, because of his position, that is not publicly available, perhaps not even to the investigators. I'm thinking here of information that might have been of some real importance.
What should he do or should have done if he has such exclusive information?
Would he have a moral obligation or legal ones in that situation?
And why would the 'Der Spiegel' have interviewed him anyway?
 
lancelot07
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RE: MH 370 Had Electrical Failure

Fri Dec 11, 2015 12:35 pm

Quoting YoungMans (Reply 33):
Would T/C have access to information, because of his position, that is not publicly available, perhaps not even to the investigators. I'm thinking here of information that might have been of some real importance.

info not publicly available: likely. More than the investigation: Highly unlikely. He has to run a large airline.

Quoting YoungMans (Reply 33):
What should he do or should have done if he has such exclusive information?

keep his mouth shut. Maybe tip off trustworthy agencies that keep their mouths shut.
Or he will no longer receive confidential info - it is as simple as that.

Quoting YoungMans (Reply 33):
Would he have a moral obligation or legal ones in that situation?

it depends.

Quoting YoungMans (Reply 33):
And why would the 'Der Spiegel' have interviewed him anyway?

Publicity. One has to sell tickets, the other journals. And fill the space between ads with text.
Maybe EK is a customer with ads ? They do a lot of PR.
 
Pihero
Posts: 4318
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RE: MH 370 Had Electrical Failure

Fri Dec 11, 2015 1:01 pm

Quoting TheRedBaron (Reply 7):
fire in the cockpit that made the flight be almost uncontrollable and then flew without intervention to the middle of the SIO.

Thanks for the vote of confidence, but the drink spill wasn't my theory.
I only tried to identify the places where we could have all the affected systems ( as we know the sequence of events ) concentrated.
One of these places was the pedestal, the more likely ones were the locations of the various bus systems in / around the cockpit.

Quoting 777Jet (Reply 24):
The article's headline:
"""Exclusive: MH370 Was Crippled by Sudden Electrical Failure""""
That wording is nothing more than clickbait and irresponsible reporting.

Yet I've ne'ver saw you object to the far more irresponsible ones on this forum.

May I remind all of you that the origin of the article is an*official Australian ATSB report* ?

I left the Flight 370 threads because I did not want to be associated with the various attitudes of most of the posters, attitudes which could be ascribed as xenophobic / racist / self-righteous... backed by the very efficient interventions of the BDCS ( Boeing Damage Control Squad) which never accepted that anything could be wrong with the plane (...   ... as if ...).
That Australian ATSB report at least dismisses one of the main point s of the BDCS : that , without autopilot the plane would enter an increasing bank, roll into a death spiral...  .
Apparently, it could, from cruise level, with the assymetry associated with a failed ( starved ) engine, remain on its course...
So much for the reliability of a Boeing so-called test piloit on his system knowledge.
Contrail designer
 
abba
Posts: 1385
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RE: MH 370 Had Electrical Failure

Fri Dec 11, 2015 3:59 pm

Quoting aerosol (Reply 20):
Sorry but Ockhams razor...

Though Occam's Razor does not work in this way in a case like this. Occam's Razor claims that the most simple explanation is most likely the right one. However, the most simple one is always that the pilot did it (it can explain almost anything). However, outside of Africa we only have two examples of pilots willfully crashing their plans (we have tree more in Africa). Usually, therefore, airplanes do not crash due to the most simple explanation. Actually, they usually crash due to very unlikely ones that might - one way or another - include human intervention one way or the other. The reason why Occam defeats us with his principle in a case like this is, that a modern airplane is a very complex system where there is a large number of very complex and unlikely chains of events that because of their shear number combined become more likely than the simple explanation. So therefore, airlines today usually crashes due to unexpected and complex chains of events and very rarely because of simple reasons such as the pilot did it.

So based on statistics (which the Occam's Razor principle is) the most likely reason is that an unexpected and very rare chain of events brought down the MH370.

Quoting aerosol (Reply 20):
Same as the Germanwings case - someone in the cockpit wanted the specacular ending.

It is important to understand what "spectacular" means for a terrorist. Now if the pilot (whoever of them) brought down the MH370 because of ideological reasons rather than because he wanted to end his life - there are these two possibilities if the pilot did it on purpose, I think - the point is to make a strong and loud statement. That means to do something with an obvious meaning for the world to see. Such person sacrifice his life for a course and dies due to necessity rather than because he wants to end his life. So in order not to waste his life, the statement made must be as strong and clear as possible. I fail to see that the disappearance of the MH370 carries any particular meaning that fits this bill.

[Edited 2015-12-11 08:00:31]
 
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7BOEING7
Posts: 3039
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RE: MH 370 Had Electrical Failure

Fri Dec 11, 2015 5:38 pm

Quoting Pihero (Reply 35):
That Australian ATSB report at least dismisses one of the main point s of the BDCS : that , without autopilot the plane would enter an increasing bank, roll into a death spiral... .
Apparently, it could, from cruise level, with the assymetry associated with a failed ( starved ) engine, remain on its course...
So much for the reliability of a Boeing so-called test piloit on his system knowledge.

They do???

Actually I think I got it right (other post on this subject, Reply26) and the simulator backs me up except for the departing controlled flight -- but simulators aren't perfect. I guess the BDCS guys got it right also. Couldn't find in the report where the ATSB said it could remain on course except for the controlled guide scenario.

"SIMULATOR DATA

The aircraft behaviour after the engine flame-out(s) was tested in the Boeing engineering simulator. In each test case, the aircraft began turning to the left and remained in a banked turn. In many cases, but not all, a phugoid oscillation in pitch was observed."

"SUMMARY -- SEARCH AREA WIDTH

• Highest priority width – a ±20 NM width from the 7th arc derived from the simulations conducted, the review of previous accidents and the tolerance on the 7th arc.
• Secondary priority width – an additional ±20 NM determined from the possible uncertainty in the simulation results and the trajectories from the turn analysis.
• Low priority width – a further ±60 NM encompasses the possible but less probable controlled glide scenario."
 
UALWN
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RE: MH 370 Had Electrical Failure

Fri Dec 11, 2015 6:19 pm

Quoting SCQ83 (Reply 27):
I assume psychological problems (seriously to kill +200 people) + political views = disaster.

And quite an assumption that is, because in the accident report it is clearly stated that the MH370 captain had no history of psychological or other medical problems (unlike the Germanwings FO), and that his behavior on that date (as reported by witnesses and recorded by security cameras) was perfectly normal. Furthermore, if the Malaysian government had any incriminatory evidence against the captain, they would most likely have already made it public, being as he was a supporter of the opposition. Yet nothing has surfaced.
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litz
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RE: MH 370 Had Electrical Failure

Fri Dec 11, 2015 7:38 pm

Quoting 777Jet (Reply 24):
Some fire!

I'd add to your points that in almost every single other instance of inflight fire, the crew was able to Mayday ... including probably the worst instance of inflight fire in modern times, Valujet 592. That fire was so intense, the recreation of the incident almost burned down the test facility. Temps were in excess of 3000 degrees F literally within minutes.

That's hotter than the blast furnace used to smelt the aluminum the airplane's made out of.

Quoting 7BOEING7 (Reply 37):
"SIMULATOR DATA

The aircraft behaviour after the engine flame-out(s) was tested in the Boeing engineering simulator. In each test case, the aircraft began turning to the left and remained in a banked turn. In many cases, but not all, a phugoid oscillation in pitch was observed."

Fascinating! so a 777 is actually capable of maintaining a somewhat stable flight with nobody at the controls, and both engines flamed out. I would have figured it would have just rolled over and nosedived.
 
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7BOEING7
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RE: MH 370 Had Electrical Failure

Fri Dec 11, 2015 8:29 pm

Quoting litz (Reply 39):
I'd add to your points that in almost every single other instance of inflight fire, the crew was able to Mayday ... including probably the worst instance of inflight fire in modern times, Valujet 592.

  

Quoting litz (Reply 39):
Fascinating! so a 777 is actually capable of maintaining a somewhat stable flight with nobody at the controls, and both engines flamed out

The simulator will, the airplane won't. In cruise the airplane will maintain altitude hands off but will not maintain heading -- I'm guessing the simulator will, I know the airplane won't.

Quoting litz (Reply 39):
I would have figured it would have just rolled over and nosedived.

Just before the left engine flamed out the airplane was probably already in a descent at protected minimum speed, left engine at max thrust, TAC had the rudder as far left as it could move it to try to account for loss of right engine, and the control wheel was to the left (somewhere between a little and a lot) to assist TAC and try and maintain heading/course. The ailerons may have been maxed out and not been able to maintain heading/course so the airplane would be in a bank to the left.

So when the left engine flamed out the rudder was almost all the way to the left, the control wheel was displaced to the left, possibly already in a left turn with no BAP (Bank Angle Protection) -- I'd be real surprised if the airplane stayed right side up.
 
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777Jet
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RE: MH 370 Had Electrical Failure

Sat Dec 12, 2015 4:39 am

Mods, please delete this post because of quote / formatting error.

[Edited 2015-12-11 20:45:53]

[Edited 2015-12-11 20:46:40]

[Edited 2015-12-11 20:47:32]

[Edited 2015-12-11 20:51:57]
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777Jet
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RE: MH 370 Had Electrical Failure

Sat Dec 12, 2015 4:50 am

Quoting Pihero (Reply 35):
Quoting 777Jet (Reply 24):
The article's headline:
"""Exclusive: MH370 Was Crippled by Sudden Electrical Failure""""
That wording is nothing more than clickbait and irresponsible reporting.

Yet I've ne'ver saw you object to the far more irresponsible ones on this forum.

Could that just be because an entirely new thread based on a Daily Beast article that asserts what actually happened with a tone of certainty, when in fact we still don't know, has not been started in the past???

Also, you must think that the "plane landed in Kazakhstan" scenario is a 'responsible' scenario because that is indeed one of the irresponsible scenarios that I did in fact object too.

I also objected to other irresponsible scenarios, such as 'it was taken by aliens', 'a UFO took it', 'it crashed then and there', etc... unless you also don't consider those to be irresponsible scenarios???

Quoting Pihero (Reply 35):
May I remind all of you that the origin of the article is an*official Australian ATSB report* ?

Well aware of it.

There are still assumptions in the official ATSB Report.

Also, may I remind others that there are instances in which the official reports from different countries participating in the same accident / incident investigation have conflicted. Thus... such official reports are not always on the mark.

Quoting Pihero (Reply 35):
I left the Flight 370 threads because I did not want to be associated with the various attitudes of most of the posters, attitudes which could be ascribed as xenophobic / racist / self-righteous... backed by the very efficient interventions of the BDCS ( Boeing Damage Control Squad) which never accepted that anything could be wrong with the plane (... ... as if ...).

You make it sound similar to the way the ADCS (Airbus Damage Control Squad) intervenes in threads about incidents / accidents involving the perfect Airbus planes.

Quoting Pihero (Reply 35):
So much for the reliability of a Boeing so-called test piloit on his system knowledge.

I will take the word of a Boeing test pilot over that of the ATSB, especially at this stage regarding MH370.

Quoting litz (Reply 39):
Quoting 777Jet (Reply 24):
Some fire!

I'd add to your points that in almost every single other instance of inflight fire, the crew was able to Mayday ... including probably the worst instance of inflight fire in modern times, Valujet 592. That fire was so intense, the recreation of the incident almost burned down the test facility. Temps were in excess of 3000 degrees F literally within minutes.

Exactly.
DC10-10/30,MD82/88/90, 717,727,732/3/4/5/7/8/9ER,742/4,752/3,763/ER,772/E/L/3/W,788/9, 306,320,321,332/3,346,359,388
 
Brewfangrb
Posts: 292
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RE: MH 370 Had Electrical Failure

Sat Dec 12, 2015 8:43 am

Quoting britannia25 (Reply 12):
The worst part is for the families and not knowing what happened to their loved ones!

I suspect the worst part for the families is that their loved ones are dead. Everyone's different and has a different psychology. But personally, I just don't get the agony over "not knowing what happened". Oh, well, I've grieved the death of my loved one but my life is in paralysis because I don't know if one of the pilots crashed the aircraft, there was a fatal mechanical failure or terrorist aliens took it. That makes no sense.

Wanting to locate the aircraft and obtain some closure--mainly getting the "where's the plane?" stuff put to rest--is one thing. Stressing over happened to the pax themselves is another.

Quoting Curiousflyer (Reply 19):
They are also amazing airplane pilots and members of the Cat Guild can fly an A380 from SYD to LHR non-stop

Toonces had many skilled relatives who learned from his mistakes.
 
Kevil
Posts: 54
Joined: Fri Nov 28, 2014 9:02 pm

RE: MH 370 Had Electrical Failure

Sun Dec 13, 2015 4:56 pm

An interesting article MH370: Fire / Decompression theory

In the text:
Logically the timeline suggests MH370 turned back from Vietnam at 17:35 UTC near 08:11N, 104.32E at 35,000ft. At this location MH370 was theoretically just visible from Songa Mercur oil rig, where Mike J McKay spotted a distant aircraft on fire.
 
lancelot07
Posts: 1078
Joined: Mon Apr 21, 2014 8:22 pm

RE: MH 370 Had Electrical Failure

Sun Dec 13, 2015 6:18 pm

Quoting Kevil (Reply 44):

Was there any confirmation for this:

Quote:
It seems the pilots Zaharie and Farriq both knew they had a communications problem and tried to establish VHF voice contact around 17:30 UTC as detected by Japan Airlines Flight JAL750.

Not that i can remember, and than the article is by someone who is about to write a book, with some freedom for artists obviously.
 
WingedMigrator
Posts: 1771
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RE: MH 370 Had Electrical Failure

Sun Dec 13, 2015 7:34 pm

I have a theory (yeah, yeah, get in line...) that a crew oxygen bottle failed. The two bottles were topped off just before the accident flight. The sudden release of oxygen would cause an over-pressure pulse that the fuselage could easily withstand, hence no decompression, but the cabin/cockpit floor structure would fail. Not being designed for a pressure differential, it would be pushed violently upwards, ripping out the wire harnesses that run in the floor structure between the avionics in the EE bay and the pedestal in the cockpit. This would explain the simultaneous failure of multiple systems without requiring fire or decompression. To the crew it would initially appear as if a bomb went off.

To be clear, I'm not saying this is necessarily what happened. My mind is open to other possibilities.
 
abba
Posts: 1385
Joined: Mon Jun 06, 2005 12:08 pm

RE: MH 370 Had Electrical Failure

Sun Dec 13, 2015 8:47 pm

Quoting WingedMigrator (Reply 46):
I have a theory

Interesting - and how would you then explain the turns later on?
 
YoungMans
Posts: 432
Joined: Sat Mar 15, 2014 10:31 am

RE: MH 370 Had Electrical Failure

Sun Dec 13, 2015 9:52 pm

Quoting lancelot07 (Reply 45):
.... [....] .... and than the article is by someone who is about to write a book, with some freedom for artists obviously.

Whether anyone wants to write a book on this is in itself irrelevant. What is important is that any such writer uses facts only. If it is expressing an opinion, speculating on the veracity of information, it must clearly say so; i.e. no artistic freedom.
We should also remember that not everything we were told is true; certainly not in the early stages of this saga.
And that by the authorities themselves ....

Quoting from the article:
"More importantly when ACARS contact with INMARSAT resumed at 18:25 UTC, the BTO (signal delay distance from satellite) and BFO (Doppler) values for MH370 also clashed with alleged radar data. The BTO distance from the satellite at 18:25 UTC was just 275nm from IGARI when radar data suggested it should have been at least 437nm from IGARI."

What exactly does this mean?
Is it saying that the bulk, latter parts of the satellite data may well be correct but not the data from the earlier stages?
In other words, is it possible, then, that the aircraft did end up in the SIO but it wasn't via the Strait of Malacca?
Is that what the satellite data really tells us?
Would this mean that 9M-MRO does now lie at the bottom of the SIO but, if so, possibly at quite a different location?
Or could it mean that the final satellite data was correctly interpretated and the search area is best guess after all?
 
WingedMigrator
Posts: 1771
Joined: Wed Oct 26, 2005 9:45 am

RE: MH 370 Had Electrical Failure

Sun Dec 13, 2015 11:32 pm

Quoting abba (Reply 47):
Interesting - and how would you then explain the turns later on?

All the turns until Penang are consistent with trying to reach a runway as quickly as possible. The continued flight up the straight could have been an attempt to buy time in safe airspace, in order to figure out exactly how much of the airplane they could rely on before attempting an emergency landing in a crippled aircraft with broken comms. As for the final turn, no idea. Nobody knows.

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