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KarelXWB
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UA Looking For 100-seat Aircraft

Fri Dec 11, 2015 4:06 pm

We now know where the CSeriers rumor came from:

Quote:
United Airlines executives have told analysts that they anticipate a fleet of 25 to 50 mainline aircraft with around 100 seats.

Four airplane manufactures are in the race:

Quote:
Airbus, Boeing, Bombardier and Embraer are competing for the potential order, says DeNardi. He views an order with Airbus or Boeing the “more likely outcome” but adds that Bombardier is likely “being very aggressive with pricing”.

Let's see if UA buys CSeriers jets.

Source:
http://www.flightglobal.com/news/art...-100-seat-aircraft-analyst-419946/
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jetblue1965
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RE: UA Looking For 100-seat Aircraft

Fri Dec 11, 2015 4:21 pm

Quoting KarelXWB (Thread starter):
He views an order with Airbus or Boeing the “more likely outcome”

This is the strange part. If we're strictly speaking about 100-seat area, it's either Airbus 318 or Boeing 737-600. Although both would provide commonality with existing fleets, both are woefully uneconomical to operate when you put it next to E95-E2 and CS100.

I've always thought CS100 is a good solution - 100 seater to fill in a big gap in their fleet, and eventually use CS300 to replace most of the 319/73G. And if Bombardier can finally regain their footing, maybe even a "CS500" to challenge the 320neo / 738max.
 
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LAXintl
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RE: UA Looking For 100-seat Aircraft

Fri Dec 11, 2015 4:35 pm

Quoting KarelXWB (Thread starter):

We now know where the CSeriers rumor came from:

It was never a rumor.

Company publicly announced they would acquire 100-seaters in return for pilots agreeing to a 2-year contract extension and C-series rates are built into the contract already.
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phxa340
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RE: UA Looking For 100-seat Aircraft

Fri Dec 11, 2015 4:46 pm

What offering from Boeing and Airbus ? That makes no sense unless they are trying to drive down the price from Bomb. and Emb.
 
behramjee
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RE: UA Looking For 100-seat Aircraft

Fri Dec 11, 2015 4:47 pm

Quoting jetblue1965 (Reply 1):
I've always thought CS100 is a good solution - 100 seater to fill in a big gap in their fleet, and eventually use CS300 to replace most of the 319/73G. And if Bombardier can finally regain their footing, maybe even a "CS500" to challenge the 320neo / 738max.

The CS100 is indeed the best aircraft for UA for this market size segment as it has a long flying range (6 hours) + can carry cargo in the belly too which the E90 cannot.
 
jetblue1965
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RE: UA Looking For 100-seat Aircraft

Fri Dec 11, 2015 4:52 pm

Quoting phxa340 (Reply 3):

What offering from Boeing and Airbus ? That makes no sense unless they are trying to drive down the price from Bomb. and Emb.

Bombardier is so desperate for any sales to revitalize the C-series that they'll be super aggressive with pricing, even if they know it's their order to lose.

A C-series order from UA, especially if it's sizable, would indeed be a major endorsement for the product. The last thing I want to see is EMB having complete domination in that space (the C919 and MRJ are hardly threats for now)
 
FlyHossD
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RE: UA Looking For 100-seat Aircraft

Fri Dec 11, 2015 5:18 pm

Quoting LAXintl (Reply 2):
Company publicly announced they would acquire 100-seaters in return for pilots agreeing to a 2-year contract extension and C-series rates are built into the contract already.

Not exactly. There's a pay rate in the United ALPA contract for the CS300, but not the CS100.
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LAXintl
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RE: UA Looking For 100-seat Aircraft

Fri Dec 11, 2015 5:20 pm

Quoting jetblue1965 (Reply 5):
Bombardier is so desperate for any sales to revitalize the C-series that they'll be super aggressive with pricing, even if they know it's their order to lose.

Actually BBD execs a few weeks ago said they would not be too aggressive on pricing as they already are taking a loss on every aircraft and cannot increase the loss.

They actually played down chances on any mega orders and instead said they sought to market airplane by smaller players and also look for incremental orders from existing clients.

Details about this was posted in one of the recent BBD threads.
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Boeing778X
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RE: UA Looking For 100-seat Aircraft

Fri Dec 11, 2015 5:23 pm

Quoting KarelXWB (Thread starter):
We now know where the CSeriers rumor came from:
Quoting KarelXWB (Thread starter):
United Airlines executives have told analysts that they anticipate a fleet of 25 to 50 mainline aircraft with around 100 seats
Quoting KarelXWB (Thread starter):
Airbus, Boeing, Bombardier and Embraer are competing for the potential order

This is all very confusing.

For a 100 seat aircraft, the almost obvious choice is the CS100/300, and Embraer will certainly pitch the E190/E195.

Then there's the A/B aspect! What?! The last time Airbus made a successful "100 seater" was never ago, and Boeing, arguably, the 737-500 (and we know the 737-600, while a couple airlines used them successfully, was a flop.)

Plus, UA has acquired or is acquiring additional 737-700s and A319s.

What could A/B be possibly pitching?

737 MAX 8 for UA?

An A320neo model at UA?

[Edited 2015-12-11 09:24:12]
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rbavfan
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RE: UA Looking For 100-seat Aircraft

Fri Dec 11, 2015 5:27 pm

Quoting jetblue1965 (Reply 5):

United is looking at 100+ seats, how would the MRJ ever be a contender. Its under the requirement & range is no where near what they need.
 
jetblue1965
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RE: UA Looking For 100-seat Aircraft

Fri Dec 11, 2015 5:39 pm

Quoting LAXintl (Reply 7):

They actually played down chances on any mega orders and instead said they sought to market airplane by smaller players and also look for incremental orders from existing clients.

They have a total of 53 (!!!) firm orders for the CS100. Nearly everyone else has opted for the larger CS300 (190+ orders). Exactly what incremental orders are they expecting, other than cross-selling to the CS300 clients, who all already purposely opted out of the CS100 variant.

Quoting rbavfan (Reply 9):

United is looking at 100+ seats, how would the MRJ ever be a contender. Its under the requirement & range is no where near what they need.

I was talking about the overall competitive landscape in the sub-319 space, not this order. If there's no one to give EMB some meaningful competition, they could achieve effective monopoly pricing, which will hurt the airlines down the road.
 
eugdjinn
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RE: UA Looking For 100-seat Aircraft

Fri Dec 11, 2015 7:46 pm

I don't think anyone seriously expects United to order the CS100, even United. It will be the CS300. Remember, it isn't going to be laid out for all coach seating. It will have First, Econ plus, and economy, and if they aren't wise enough to plan floor space for galleys to do meals, and some extra storage as well as flexibility for down the road needs, it will come back to bite them. This new management is considerably smarter than Smisek and the PennyPinchers. It's completely within the realm of possibilities that they also actually paid some attention to the recent galley/lavatory debacle at Widgetville and took note that reducing things down to "Lavatories are located at the front and rear of the AIRPORT" does not actually work and some need to be onboard the aircraft, as does space nearby so that passerngers can successfully maneuver in and out without having to mount one another.

So, no, there will be no surprise to me or most of the industry when it is just CS300s. You wait and see.

As to Embraer, there lines are busy filling the 175 orders for the regionals, United won't want to interrupt that, they need to keep that process flowing smoothly. (And no, there are zero economies of scale in United ordering from Embraer to capture. United has no skin in the game, they don't do EMB 175 maintenance, have spares, or gain from pilot experience to speak of... they'll do just as well with CS300 aircraft in their own fleet.)

Two last pieces: one, seriously, this isn't an aircraft purchase that has anything to do with transcontinental range - not remotely. It just isn't. That's the mission for the 319. And they have those. This plane is feeder service, it will do tons of flights from cities all around and into SFO, LAX, DEN, ORD, IAH, IAD, EWR. It isn't going to do the long stuff. It doesn't need to. So range, gang, is really, really irrelevant. It needs a couple thousand miles. That's it. Let it go. It's a big RJ - that's all. Stop glorifying it, this isn't for missions like the 787. It's just not.

Second, I am quietly betting that we will soon see an announcement that after rethinking galley, lavatory, and other needs, cabins will be refit on the 319 fleet, and include an expansion of first class to include more than the paltry 8 seats.
 
eielef
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RE: UA Looking For 100-seat Aircraft

Fri Dec 11, 2015 7:50 pm

Would they ever consider the Sukhoi Superjet?
 
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adamblang
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RE: UA Looking For 100-seat Aircraft

Fri Dec 11, 2015 8:12 pm

I dunno eugdjinn, looking at Bombardier's configurations charts it looks like the CS100 would be more up United's alley in the 100-seat segment:

http://i.imgur.com/lj3qivG.png

Take out a row of Economy Regular to free up some space for Economy Plus from each configuration and you've got 103 seats in CS100 and 125 seats in CS300. That looks like it would conform to United's First / Economy Plus / Economy mix pretty well.

CS300 would be overlapping A319/737-700 a bit much as well. Not that there's anything wrong with that but why shell out the money for used A319s and 737-700s now only to mix in a new third fleet filling the same role?

Taking a longer view, maybe order CS100 now, add in CS300 when the A320 family and 737NGs are due to leave the fleet standardizing to CS100/CS300 at the small end of mainline narrow bodies and 737-8/737-9 at the large end of mainline narrow bodies in 2025?

Also, in regard to your supposition they'll expand F on the 319s, they've just installed new Y seats on every Airbus and have begun refitting new F seats. And they've just refurbished bins. Seems like an awful lot of expense – hardware, labor, down time – just to go back and do a third or even fourth refitting.

[Edited 2015-12-11 12:14:46]
146 319 320 321 332 333 343 717 734 735 73G 738 739 744 752 753 763 764 772 77E 77L 77W 788 789 AR1 AT4 CNA CR2 CR7 DC9 ER3 ERD ER4 E70 E75 E90
 
UA444
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RE: UA Looking For 100-seat Aircraft

Fri Dec 11, 2015 8:32 pm

Quoting eielef (Reply 12):
Would they ever consider the Sukhoi Superjet?

No.
 
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Polot
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RE: UA Looking For 100-seat Aircraft

Fri Dec 11, 2015 8:32 pm

The CS300 is sized for the 73G/A319. While 100 seats in it would be fantastic from a passenger point of view it makes more sense to go with the CS100 for 100 seats. The CS100 easily seats around 100 in a dual class configuration, it is larger than the E190.
 
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RE: UA Looking For 100-seat Aircraft

Fri Dec 11, 2015 9:04 pm

Would UA staff a hypothetical CS100 with only two cabin crew? That's not a very appealing passenger to crew ratio for good inflight service.
 
jetblue1965
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RE: UA Looking For 100-seat Aircraft

Fri Dec 11, 2015 9:10 pm

Quoting AABB777 (Reply 16):

Would UA staff a hypothetical CS100 with only two cabin crew? That's not a very appealing passenger to crew ratio for good inflight service.

In that scenario, it would be better service for both FAs to finish servicing F cabin then both move to service Y cabin. But yes, it stinks no matter what we sugar coat it.
 
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RE: UA Looking For 100-seat Aircraft

Fri Dec 11, 2015 9:10 pm

Everyone here seemingly speaks only of the C100/300 and occasionally the E195 but no one has mentioned the outside chance of a Sukhoi SSJ 100/130. Given it is a real outsider in the realm of things but it seems to have served Interjet very well in Mexico. I flew on one from MEX-ZCL on the SSJ and it was very comfortable and a really nice aircraft. Perhaps UA could be the launch customer for the SSJ130!
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UA444
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RE: UA Looking For 100-seat Aircraft

Fri Dec 11, 2015 9:15 pm

Quoting deltadawg (Reply 18):

UA isn't ordering a Russian jet.
 
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KGRB
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RE: UA Looking For 100-seat Aircraft

Fri Dec 11, 2015 9:23 pm

Quoting AABB777 (Reply 16):
Would UA staff a hypothetical CS100 with only two cabin crew? That's not a very appealing passenger to crew ratio for good inflight service.

How is that any different than DL with two FAs on the 717?
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deltadawg
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RE: UA Looking For 100-seat Aircraft

Fri Dec 11, 2015 9:23 pm

Quoting UA444 (Reply 19):

Quoting deltadawg (Reply 18):

UA isn't ordering a Russian jet.

Hey, money talks! Supposedly lower operating costs than E-jets (don't have anything to back that up but it's on their website and on Weakapedia) and lower upfront cost. I believe list is $35 million and I am sure the Russians will negotiate! And the SSJ100 already flies into the U.S. in Interjet.
  
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RE: UA Looking For 100-seat Aircraft

Fri Dec 11, 2015 9:25 pm

I really think the C Series will be selected, I expect an initial order for between 30-40 CS100s. With follow on orders for both CS100s and CS300s bringing the total UA CS fleet to between 88 and 100. Adding more 76 seat regional jets, ERJ-175s, is contingent on UA ordering a new narrowbody mainline aircraft (not additional A319s/737s).

UA currently has on property or on firm order all the 76 seat regional jets their current contract allows, 153. They are allowed to add 1 additional 76 seat ERJ-175 for every 1.25 new narrowbody mainline they add for a total of 88 mainline and 70 76 seat regionals.

Perhaps UA will order 40 CS100s from Bombardier and lease the 40 CS300s RAH has on order.
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UA444
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RE: UA Looking For 100-seat Aircraft

Fri Dec 11, 2015 9:29 pm

Quoting deltadawg (Reply 21):

US airlines aren't buying Russian planes. For operational and political reasons. An LCC in Mexico is not anywhere close to the same.
 
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STT757
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RE: UA Looking For 100-seat Aircraft

Fri Dec 11, 2015 9:30 pm

Quoting eugdjinn (Reply 11):
Two last pieces: one, seriously, this isn't an aircraft purchase that has anything to do with transcontinental range - not remotely. It just isn't. That's the mission for the 319. And they have those. This plane is feeder service, it will do tons of flights from cities all around and into SFO, LAX, DEN, ORD, IAH, IAD, EWR. It isn't going to do the long stuff. It doesn't need to.

I disagree, CO used to fly some long routes with their 735s from EWR. EWR-TUS, EWR-ABQ and EWR-SLC are some examples. Those routes might match well with the CS100s performance and give UA a reason to give them a second look. I would be curious about other routes too, like how would the CS100 perform from Key West, or some of the smaller Rocky Mountain Ski resorts.
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eugdjinn
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RE: UA Looking For 100-seat Aircraft

Fri Dec 11, 2015 9:32 pm

At 103 seats, you are required to have three flight attendants. A cost. At 120 seats, you have three flight attendants, at 149 seats, you have the same three flight attendants, spread over more revenue generating seats.

I think you all are getting too caught up in the wording of 100-seat aircraft. Yeah, United is looking for a smaller workhorse for hub to small city mainline service. The kind of workhorse that Delta is using the 717 for, the runs that have just about outgrown regional only service and starting to show a need for a little mainline service, part of the year, or need part of the year smaller mainline aircraft and will upgauge to their 737/A319/320 service the rest of the time. They don't need birds that can fly massive distance.

I agree with you that Bombardier's maps show it possible. But take a really good, hard look at what those maps are actually showing, and re-think them with an eye toward what you would want on board if you were ordering the plane and wanted every passenger walking off to do so with a big smile? Would you really be o.k. with only two lavatories? Really? For 100-120 people? How about planning for a galley that needs to carry meals and heat them for say two journeys of 12 first class passengers, and let's plan ahead and say we want also to maybe be able to offer another 30 coach passengers each way a hot sandwich from the aft galley. Just maybe. And we do not anticipate being able to cater the aircraft in its non-hub stop, just the hub, so, the galley has to carry all the food and beverages required to go out and back. Bombardier's maps showed minimal configs, based on pop, next to no lavs, and really no amenities. I get it, that's fair. But that's not the United I think should be ordering. Delta tried that, it bit them. American is upping their game, so is Delta. United needs to use this aircraft to reinvent the friendly skies. Doesn't it?

The same issue that plagued the 737-600 and the A318 is affecting the CS100 here, and always affects the smallest of a line - if the difference in cost to operate and procure the smallest versus its slightly larger sibling is minimal, then there is no point. We'll just take the slightly larger and on a rare day, take a small hit when we can't sell the few seats that make it break even. (For example - the CRJ200 and CRJ700 are so close in break even -one flight attendant and very little more fuel- that its well worth it to fly the 700 if you aren't already in possession of the 200. Its around two occupied seats in cost versus 20 or so that you can sell. O.k. the list price is $8 million more, but you make it back- fast and the 900 is better yet!)

I wouldn't get too caught up in the costs sunk in seats... pulling seats isn't all that difficult. Lavs are a pain. Galleys are a bear. But aircraft in for checks are getting that stuff done anyway. Wait and see. There's some real value in rethinking and retuning how many first seats are onboard a 319 when you have more onboard a 175 than you do on a trans-continental aircraft and its time to re-evaluate that ratio. I think this question is about due.
 
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Polot
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RE: UA Looking For 100-seat Aircraft

Fri Dec 11, 2015 9:36 pm

Quoting AABB777 (Reply 16):
Would UA staff a hypothetical CS100 with only two cabin crew? That's not a very appealing passenger to crew ratio for good inflight service.
Quoting KGRB (Reply 20):
How is that any different than DL with two FAs on the 717?

I think DL's 717 have 3 FA (1 FA for 50 or less, 2 for 50-100, 3 for 100-150, and the 717 seats 110). I expect UA would be the same. UA does have a much larger Y+ section on their planes than DL does but I would be surprised if it has exactly 100 seats, it would probably seat slightly more than that.
 
jetblue1965
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RE: UA Looking For 100-seat Aircraft

Fri Dec 11, 2015 9:37 pm

Quoting eugdjinn (Reply 25):

The same issue that plagued the 737-600 and the A318 is affecting the CS100 here, and always affects the smallest of a line - if the difference in cost to operate and procure the smallest versus its slightly larger sibling is minimal, then there is no point. We'll just take the slightly larger and on a rare day, take a small hit when we can't sell the few seats that make it break even. (For example - the CRJ200 and CRJ700 are so close in break even -one flight attendant and very little more fuel- that its well worth it to fly the 700 if you aren't already in possession of the 200. Its around two occupied seats in cost versus 20 or so that you can sell. O.k. the list price is $8 million more, but you make it back- fast and the 900 is better yet!)

The key difference is that the 736/318 were shrinks while the CS100 is actually the baseline model, so the weight penalties that plague most shrinks hardly apply here.

Of course CASM improves when you start stretching, but you can't run a whole airline with just 321NEOs and 779s. That's why there are still buyers of the smaller models. The goal is fitting the right plane to the route, not just the lowest CASM plane.
 
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Polot
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RE: UA Looking For 100-seat Aircraft

Fri Dec 11, 2015 9:40 pm

Quoting jetblue1965 (Reply 27):

The key difference is that the 736/318 were shrinks while the CS100 is actually the baseline model, so the weight penalties that plague most shrinks hardly apply here.

Of course CASM improves when you start stretching, but you can't run a whole airline with just 321NEOs and 779s. That's why there are still buyers of the smaller models. The goal is fitting the right plane to the route, not just the lowest CASM plane.

Another factor is that 100 seaters are needed at UA to raise the 75 seat count, which is what UA wants to do. 100 seaters are inherently compromised in some way, that is why they are not extremely popular, but that is just something UA is accepting to get more large RJs.

Quoting eugdjinn (Reply 25):
I agree with you that Bombardier's maps show it possible. But take a really good, hard look at what those maps are actually showing, and re-think them with an eye toward what you would want on board if you were ordering the plane and wanted every passenger walking off to do so with a big smile? Would you really be o.k. with only two lavatories? Really? For 100-120 people? How about planning for a galley that needs to carry meals and heat them for say two journeys of 12 first class passengers, and let's plan ahead and say we want also to maybe be able to offer another 30 coach passengers each way a hot sandwich from the aft galley. Just maybe. And we do not anticipate being able to cater the aircraft in its non-hub stop, just the hub, so, the galley has to carry all the food and beverages required to go out and back. Bombardier's maps showed minimal configs, based on pop, next to no lavs, and really no amenities. I get it, that's fair. But that's not the United I think should be ordering. Delta tried that, it bit them. American is upping their game, so is Delta. United needs to use this aircraft to reinvent the friendly skies. Doesn't it?

It looks like the aft galley can be reduced in size and another lav added. This would match DL's 717 set up, which I believe has no aft galley. Just one of the tradeoffs you need to make if you have limited space.

[Edited 2015-12-11 13:47:06]
 
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KGRB
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RE: UA Looking For 100-seat Aircraft

Fri Dec 11, 2015 9:42 pm

Quoting Polot (Reply 26):

I think DL's 717 have 3 FA (1 FA for 50 or less, 2 for 50-100, 3 for 100-150, and the 717 seats 110). I expect UA would be the same. UA does have a much larger Y+ section on their planes than DL does but I would be surprised if it has exactly 100 seats, it would probably seat slightly more than that.


Thank you for the correction. For some reason, I remember only two FAs on the 717, but I haven't been on one since last year, so I guess I'm mistaken.  

In that case, I would fully expect three FAs on UA's [hypothetical] CS300.
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jetblue1965
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RE: UA Looking For 100-seat Aircraft

Fri Dec 11, 2015 9:45 pm

Quoting Polot (Reply 28):

Another factor is that 100 seaters are needed at UA to raise the 75 seat count, which is what UA wants to do. 100 seaters are inherently compromised in some way, that is why they are not extremely popular, but that is just something UA is accepting to get more large RJs.

That's one, but also driven by DL. They saw how successful DL is with the 717, so they're just mimicking DL in this sense. Imitation is the best form of flattery.

Of course their BFF LH Group has the C-series on order as well, so there's some expertise that could be shared.
 
sldispatcher
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RE: UA Looking For 100-seat Aircraft

Fri Dec 11, 2015 10:29 pm

I'm wondering how long UA is going to drag this out. Seems like the Wright Brothers just finished the 3rd test flight when rumors went flying about UAL looking for 100 seaters.

For me, I'm interested in how the Republic order plays into this along with the more customer friendly attitude seems to be creeping back into the culture at United. I'm rooting for the C-series as both a passenger and as an enthusiast. Even with the addition of the A319's, I don't think it is any secret that UAL needs capacity increases in some markets. A C-series order would be a vote for the future as well. $40/bbl oil won't be around forever. There will come a time when the most fuel efficient fleet will win...again.
 
strfyr51
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RE: UA Looking For 100-seat Aircraft

Fri Dec 11, 2015 10:53 pm

looking from the past I think the CS300 would fill the bill with 12F 110Y since all the UAX Embraer's have first class as well as Economy Plus in their Cabins as well.
Management is trying to present seamless service in that whether you're on United or UAX the service will be nearly Identical.. I think that's why the airplane brouhaha.
I specify the CS over the EMB because the CS airplanes might do better in the Cold north American winters where it is rumored the Embraer airplanes do not perform that well.
But!! Having never worked on the airplane I cannot say first hand. Though the CS airplanes are derivative of Dehavilland designs and I have had dealings with the Dash 7 which was a remarkable airplane
In both design and technology as being the FIRST Noth American airliner to be CAT3 capable and be installed with a microwave landing system..
 
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TWA772LR
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RE: UA Looking For 100-seat Aircraft

Fri Dec 11, 2015 11:08 pm

Quoting KarelXWB (Thread starter):
Four airplane manufactures are in the race:

Quote:
Airbus, Boeing, Bombardier and Embraer are competing for the potential order, says DeNardi. He views an order with Airbus or Boeing the “more likely outcome” but adds that Bombardier is likely “being very aggressive with pricing”.

So, that leaves the A318, 717, 737-600, CSeries, and E2. But no Superjet  

The first three are out of production. So that leaves the two aircraft that have been speculated this whole time. This, unfortunately, changes nothing.

But there's gotta be some parked A318s laying around or 736s that airlines won't mind getting rid of. DL as the 717 market covered, and the last 2 are clean slate, new designs, CSereies moreso.
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strfyr51
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RE: UA Looking For 100-seat Aircraft

Fri Dec 11, 2015 11:38 pm

Quoting TWA772LR (Reply 33):
So, that leaves the A318, 717, 737-600, CSeries, and E2. But no Superjet The first three are out of production. So that leaves the two aircraft that have been speculated this whole time. This, unfortunately, changes nothing.But there's gotta be some parked A318s laying around or 736s that airlines won't mind getting rid of. DL as the 717 market covered, and the last 2 are clean slate, new designs, CSereies moreso.

This was all a contract matter with ALPA, if the company wanted to fly larger jets in UAX service the deal would be 2 for 1 to the bigger jet. Unless United Bought a larger regional jet to fly in mainline service.
Which for every 1 they bought UAX could fly 2 of the larger regionals like the E175. They are bumping into the limit of the E175's they can fly so Mainline has to either buy the Next jet up the line or cap UAX
The Next jets up the line are the E190- 195 or the CS100- 300. Were I a betting man I would bet on the E-195 with the CS300riding shotgun..
 
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Boeing778X
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RE: UA Looking For 100-seat Aircraft

Sat Dec 12, 2015 12:19 am

Quoting TWA772LR (Reply 33):
So, that leaves the A318, 717, 737-600, CSeries, and E2. But no Superjet  

The first three are out of production. So that leaves the two aircraft that have been speculated this whole time. This, unfortunately, changes nothing.

But there's gotta be some parked A318s laying around or 736s that airlines won't mind getting rid of.

UA is not going to get A318s or 736s, period.

I'm fully convinced that the C-Series will be the choice.

Quoting eugdjinn (Reply 11):
I don't think anyone seriously expects United to order the CS100, even United. It will be the CS300. Remember, it isn't going to be laid out for all coach seating. It will have First, Econ plus, and economy, and if they aren't wise enough to plan floor space for galleys to do meals, and some extra storage as well as flexibility for down the road needs, it will come back to bite them. This new management is considerably smarter than Smisek and the PennyPinchers. It's completely within the realm of possibilities that they also actually paid some attention to the recent galley/lavatory debacle at Widgetville and took note that reducing things down to "Lavatories are located at the front and rear of the AIRPORT" does not actually work and some need to be onboard the aircraft, as does space nearby so that passerngers can successfully maneuver in and out without having to mount one another.

So, no, there will be no surprise to me or most of the industry when it is just CS300s

I'm sure both the CS100 and CS300 are up for review. I personally wouldn't be surprised if it were only CS300s either, but I also wouldn't be surprised if they found both to be a fit.
United Airlines: $#!ttin' On Everyone Since 1931
 
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Adipasquale
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RE: UA Looking For 100-seat Aircraft

Sat Dec 12, 2015 12:20 am

Quoting TWA772LR (Reply 33):
But there's gotta be some parked A318s laying around or 736s that airlines won't mind getting rid of.

I don't think there are many A318s or 736s lying around since there weren't many built to begin with. I believe 9 of the F9 A318s were scrapped, but most are still in service with other carriers. The article says UA would be looking for 25-50 aircraft. The lower limit of that is about a third of the total of each type produced, and 50 is about 2/3.

Quoting TWA772LR (Reply 33):
The first three are out of production

Correct me if I'm wrong, but don't Airbus and Boeing still produce the A318 and 736 as business jets? And if so, couldn't an airline still order some.
I am convinced there will never be another A318 or 736 ordered by an airline, but it would sure be awesome if there was!

[Edited 2015-12-11 16:24:20]

[Edited 2015-12-11 16:26:58]
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Thomaas
Posts: 661
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RE: UA Looking For 100-seat Aircraft

Sat Dec 12, 2015 12:23 am

Seems that people have forgotten that Boeing still has 25x E190s from AC to place. I bet UA can take over those and also AC's remaining 25 at a good bargain. Although I'd prefer the CSeries, this scenario seems more likely.
 
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Boeing778X
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RE: UA Looking For 100-seat Aircraft

Sat Dec 12, 2015 12:25 am

Quoting Adipasquale (Reply 36):
I believe 9 of the F9 A318s were scrapped

You are correct, and they were extremely young too! I think a few of them were as young as 3-4 years!

Quoting Adipasquale (Reply 36):
Correct me if I'm wrong, but don't Airbus and Boeing still produce the A318 and 736 as business jets?

The 737-600 is definitely not in production. The last deliveries were nearly 10 years ago, and I wouldn't be surprised if they aren't even being offered anymore.

The A318, on the other hand, is still being offered, but none are being built, I don't think. Since 2009, A318 yearly deliveries have been single digit or zero, and the best year for the A318 was 2007, in which a whopping 17 were delivered.
United Airlines: $#!ttin' On Everyone Since 1931
 
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Adipasquale
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RE: UA Looking For 100-seat Aircraft

Sat Dec 12, 2015 12:29 am

Quoting Boeing778X (Reply 38):
The last deliveries were nearly 10 years ago, and I wouldn't be surprised if they aren't even being offered anymore.

Can someone confirm if the 736 is still offered by Boeing?
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UA444
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RE: UA Looking For 100-seat Aircraft

Sat Dec 12, 2015 12:47 am

Boeing doesn't list the 736 on sales catalogs but if an airline wanted one it is still possible to build it as long as the 737NG is in production.

Airbus still offers the A318 and even has an order for one placed this year. B
 
MIflyer12
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RE: UA Looking For 100-seat Aircraft

Sat Dec 12, 2015 12:54 am

The 736 is economically obsolete at mainline costs at the big U.S. carriers. It doesn't really matter if the tooling is still available or not. Chance of UA buying 50 736s approaches zero.
 
rising
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RE: UA Looking For 100-seat Aircraft

Sat Dec 12, 2015 1:23 am

Do they still make the 736?
If it doesn't make sense, it's probably not true.
 
Viscount724
Posts: 19316
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RE: UA Looking For 100-seat Aircraft

Sat Dec 12, 2015 2:08 am

Quoting Adipasquale (Reply 36):
but don't Airbus and Boeing still produce the A318 and 736 as business jets?
Quoting rising (Reply 42):
Do they still make the 736?

The 736 was never offered as a BBJ. As already mentioned, it's been out of production for years and is no longer offered. The last of the 69 736s built was delivered to WestJet over 9 years ago, September 14, 2006.
 
A320FlyGuy
Posts: 272
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RE: UA Looking For 100-seat Aircraft

Sat Dec 12, 2015 2:11 am

Quoting rising (Reply 42):
Do they still make the 736?

The 737-600 is still listed on the Boeing website, but for all intents and purposes...it's dead. I imagine that the customer that comes knocking on the door to buy a 736 will likely be shown the 73G.

The fact that there is no 737-6 MAX says a lot about how Boeing saw the model.....a complete and utter dog in both performance and sales.
My other car is an A320-200
 
Viscount724
Posts: 19316
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RE: UA Looking For 100-seat Aircraft

Sat Dec 12, 2015 2:13 am

Quoting A320FlyGuy (Reply 44):
Quoting rising (Reply 42):
Do they still make the 736?

The 737-600 is still listed on the Boeing website, but for all intents and purposes...it's dead. I imagine that the customer that comes knocking on the door to buy a 736 will likely be shown the 73G.

The 736 is no longer shown in the Boeing price list which normally means it's no longer available.
 
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Adipasquale
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RE: UA Looking For 100-seat Aircraft

Sat Dec 12, 2015 2:14 am

Quoting Viscount724 (Reply 43):
it's been out of production for years and is no longer offered.

Just out of curiosity, how hard would it be for Boeing to produce a 736 right now considering they still manufacture the other three variants of the 737NG.
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TWA772LR
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RE: UA Looking For 100-seat Aircraft

Sat Dec 12, 2015 2:23 am

Quoting Boeing778X (Reply 35):
UA is not going to get A318s or 736s, period.

Most likely not, but UA has huge fleets of A32x and 737s, so the cost entrance of the A318 and/or the 736 would be minimal compared to the CSeries or E2. If airlines are as willing to drop them as people say they are, UA could theoretically pick them up for a steal. Westjet is expanding like wildfire and practically has no need for their 600s. And since UA is such a gargantuan customer, I'm sure they could convince Airbus to build a few A318s for a bargain.

But I do hope the CSeries is the winner here. It's a beautiful, underrated aircraft with tons of potential.

And if it's not, I hope for they go for the A318 and/or 736 (they can justify doing both), I just love stubby aircraft!
When wasn't America great?


The thoughts and opinions shared under this username are mine and are not influenced by my employer.
 
Viscount724
Posts: 19316
Joined: Thu Oct 12, 2006 7:32 pm

RE: UA Looking For 100-seat Aircraft

Sat Dec 12, 2015 2:24 am

Quoting Adipasquale (Reply 46):
Quoting Viscount724 (Reply 43):
it's been out of production for years and is no longer offered.

Just out of curiosity, how hard would it be for Boeing to produce a 736 right now considering they still manufacture the other three variants of the 737NG.

Even the 737-700 has only had about a dozen orders in the past 4 years, plus a couple of 737-700Cs for the U.S. Navy.
 
Thomaas
Posts: 661
Joined: Sun Apr 27, 2014 10:52 pm

RE: UA Looking For 100-seat Aircraft

Sat Dec 12, 2015 2:43 am

Quoting TWA772LR (Reply 47):

Quoting Boeing778X (Reply 35):
UA is not going to get A318s or 736s, period.

Most likely not, but UA has huge fleets of A32x and 737s, so the cost entrance of the A318 and/or the 736 would be minimal compared to the CSeries or E2. If airlines are as willing to drop them as people say they are, UA could theoretically pick them up for a steal. Westjet is expanding like wildfire and practically has no need for their 600s. And since UA is such a gargantuan customer, I'm sure they could convince Airbus to build a few A318s for a bargain.

But I do hope the CSeries is the winner here. It's a beautiful, underrated aircraft with tons of potential.

And if it's not, I hope for they go for the A318 and/or 736 (they can justify doing both), I just love stubby aircraft

I don't know how the A318 and 736 got dragged in here but their economics are well known to be horrific. They are way too heavy for their passenger capacity and even low fuel prices can't make them all that attractive. The commonality argument doesn't stand when you talk about an airline the size of UA. Yes there is some expense to introducing a new time but airplanes are long-term investments, and thus the company would gain more by choosing the right aircraft rather than the cheapest. If commonality and low fuel prices made the 736 and A318 more attractive, you'd see many more carriers buying them but they haven't sold any for almost a decade.
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