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TWA772LR
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RE: UA Looking For 100-seat Aircraft

Sat Dec 12, 2015 2:48 am

Quoting Thomaas (Reply 49):
I don't know how the A318 and 736 got dragged in here but their economics are well known to be horrific.

The OP stated UA is looking at Airbus, Boeing, Bombardier, and Embraer for a 100 seater. Indicating UA is playing ball behind the scenes with all 4. Since the only planes in that category A and B maker are the 318 and 736 repectively, it's safe to assume they are exploring the option. That, and the fact that the commonality of the types, coupled with the fact UA has huge 32X and 737 fleets, the minimal cost should offset the weight issue.
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Thomaas
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RE: UA Looking For 100-seat Aircraft

Sat Dec 12, 2015 2:52 am

Quoting TWA772LR (Reply 50):
commonality of the types, coupled with the fact UA has huge 32X and 737 fleets, the minimal cost should offset the weight issue.

Then why haven't A&B sold any for a decade now ? This argument has been disproven at each A319 & 737-700 order that came from early A318 and 736 operators.
 
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NWAROOSTER
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RE: UA Looking For 100-seat Aircraft

Sat Dec 12, 2015 2:52 am

Both Bombardier and Embraer are going need to build a 100 plus seat aircraft that both the pilots and airlines can agree on. If they can't, someone else will, the Japanese and maybe the Chinese. It won't be the Russian's SSJ Superjet for both political and the availability of parts.
Delta and Hawaiian Airlines pretty much have that size aircraft controlled with the 717 and that aircraft can't fly forever.
In fact the aircraft will need to make quick turn arounds while flying short trips.   
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catiii
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RE: UA Looking For 100-seat Aircraft

Sat Dec 12, 2015 2:59 am

Quoting KarelXWB (Thread starter):
Quoting eugdjinn (Reply 11):

So, no, there will be no surprise to me or most of the industry when it is just CS300s. You wait and see.

As to Embraer, there lines are busy filling the 175 orders for the regionals, United won't want to interrupt that, they need to keep that process flowing smoothly. (And no, there are zero economies of scale in United ordering from Embraer to capture. United has no skin in the game, they don't do EMB 175 maintenance, have spares, or gain from pilot experience to speak of... they'll do just as well with CS300 aircraft in their own fleet.)

Two last pieces: one, seriously, this isn't an aircraft purchase that has anything to do with transcontinental range - not remotely. It just isn't. That's the mission for the 319. And they have those. This plane is feeder service, it will do tons of flights from cities all around and into SFO, LAX, DEN, ORD, IAH, IAD, EWR. It isn't going to do the long stuff. It doesn't need to. So range, gang, is really, really irrelevant. It needs a couple thousand miles.

I'll take the alternative viewpoint and posit that they'll take some used 190s off an existing North American 190 operator's hands...and I'll leave it at that.

Also, "a couple thousand miles" range is fairly long...

[Edited 2015-12-11 19:00:45]
 
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Boeing778X
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RE: UA Looking For 100-seat Aircraft

Sat Dec 12, 2015 3:02 am

Quoting TWA772LR (Reply 47):
Most likely not, but UA has huge fleets of A32x and 737s, so the cost entrance of the A318 and/or the 736 would be minimal compared to the CSeries or E2. If airlines are as willing to drop them as people say they are, UA could theoretically pick them up for a steal.

Theoretically, of course they can.

Will they? I doubt it. Besides, the A318 and 737-600 have the worst economics of their respected families.

The fact that A and B are running tells me that they are just trying to score more orders. They know they don't have 100 seat jets, but I'm sure they'd love one of their own to fill that need.
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PEK777
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RE: UA Looking For 100-seat Aircraft

Sat Dec 12, 2015 3:03 am

Why not just stick to the current strategy and fly two 50 seat ERJ-145's or CRJ200's 10 minutes apart?
 
Okcflyer
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RE: UA Looking For 100-seat Aircraft

Sat Dec 12, 2015 3:08 am

If B and A are realistically in the mix, we're looking at 125 seat plans. A with the 319, B with the 73G, Cs300, and Embarer e2-195.

Boeing still had a few NG slots to fill before MAX. Could see that being a major dark hourse. Complete compatibility if ever plane already flown.

I find it hard to order a fleet of 25-50 A319's with IAE's today. Switching to CFM would be fairly pricey, not a whole lot in common between -5 and -7. But the CFM infrastructure is in place. That's a huge benefit over PW / GTF.

The C-Series is an amazing airplane on paper. I don't see United feeling daring enough to play the "lottery". It's an insanely risky program requiring everything new to support it. CS300 compares to A319/73G well but the smaller baby might work as well if they actually want 100-seater. Problem is it is so dang capable it costs way more than needed to operate most of the routes it will see.

A handful of used E-190 are available. United has excellent performance values for the current gen, minus the entirely different engine. That said, it puts in the same boat as A319 ahead. Infrastructure for CF fairly well in place. Waiting for GTF's E2 is a matter of correctly forecasting future oil prices as the engine support network would be all new.

Is it not possible for Unjted to farm some E190 maintenance work to its regional fliers?

The CASM master will be the E2-195. Major questions are performance penalty to 190 size and incremental fuel burn for standard route length.

Since they say 100+ seat. I think they'll end up with some 190's and eventually transition to E2's. Can't complain. It's an excellent aircraft.
 
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TWA772LR
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RE: UA Looking For 100-seat Aircraft

Sat Dec 12, 2015 3:54 am

Quoting Thomaas (Reply 51):
Then why haven't A&B sold any for a decade now ? This argument has been disproven at each A319 & 737-700 order that came from early A318 and 736 operators.

Because the operators who had them expanded, like the main ones, WestJet and SAS, and F9. AF and SK, huge network carriers with route systems similar to UAs with routes ranging from 100mi milkruns to 15hr longhauls, can find a place for them and hang on to them, then UA can. WestJet and F9 were significantly smaller when they ditched (or minimized their respective fleets. SK, which has been apparently been operating in the economic doldrums has been operating their 736s for a decade, is still flying theirs, so the weight penalty is still not that bad for large airlines; especially UA.

And if UA needs around 50 100-seaters, and want them fast, affordable, and common with 95% of their narrowbody fleet, then they can for sure make some cheap A318s and 736s work.
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B737900ER
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RE: UA Looking For 100-seat Aircraft

Sat Dec 12, 2015 3:59 am

Quoting PEK777 (Reply 55):
Why not just stick to the current strategy and fly two 50 seat ERJ-145's or CRJ200's 10 minutes apart?

Where does that currently happen?

Quoting Okcflyer (Reply 56):
Is it not possible for Unjted to farm some E190 maintenance work to its regional fliers?

It would go against the mechanics scope clause, which reads exactly the same as the pilots. Besides that it would be an absolute operational disaster to mix a regional anything with mainline crews and operations on a consistent basis. The cost benefit would quickly erode.
 
boilerla
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RE: UA Looking For 100-seat Aircraft

Sat Dec 12, 2015 4:13 am

I think we're reading too much into the Airbus/Boeing statements.

Quoting KarelXWB (Thread starter):
United Airlines executives have told analysts that they anticipate a fleet of 25 to 50 mainline aircraft with around 100 seats.
...
Airbus, Boeing, Bombardier and Embraer are competing for the potential order, says DeNardi. He views an order with Airbus or Boeing the “more likely outcome” but adds that Bombardier is likely “being very aggressive with pricing”.

I can see United telling analysts that A&B are in the running, just so they don't tip their hat to a C-Series or E-190 order. But it's the analyst's opinion that Airbus & Boeing are the more likely outcome, not United's statement. And IMHO analysts are usually about as good as a psychic hotline. The article actually says very little from United itself, except that analysts were told UA wants a 100-seater--something that's not really new information, so the analyst may have little to go on except what's already known.

IMHO this is Embraer's to lose, even though I'd rather see a CS100 order. C-Series is risky given the program's current state, and United is not known to take risks. Maybe if it completes flight testing on time and has great results to crow about.
 
Viscount724
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RE: UA Looking For 100-seat Aircraft

Sat Dec 12, 2015 4:21 am

Quoting TWA772LR (Reply 57):
And if UA needs around 50 100-seaters, and want them fast, affordable, and common with 95% of their narrowbody fleet, then they can for sure make some cheap A318s and 736s work.

People are wasting their time talking about UA acquiring A318s or 737-600s. As already mentioned many times, the 737-600 hasn't been in production for 10 years and is no longer offered by Boeing. Would make no sense to buy aircraft that have virtually no resale value on the used market. Many A318s and 736s have already been scrapped as the parts are worth more than the aircraft. The only reason carriers like WS are still flying them is because they have them and there's no market for them used. I expect WS now wishes they'd ordered another 13 73Gs rather than the 736s.
 
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Adipasquale
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RE: UA Looking For 100-seat Aircraft

Sat Dec 12, 2015 4:47 am

Nobody has answered my question of what special tooling the 736 requires. Since the other three variants of the 737NG are still rolling off the line, why couldn't Boeing build 736s if a customer wanted them?
DH8A DH8B CR1 CR2 CR7 CR9 E45 E70 E75 E90 D93 M88 318 319 320 321 333 343 712 732 733 734 73G 738 739 744 752 753 762 763 772 77L 77W
 
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adamblang
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RE: UA Looking For 100-seat Aircraft

Sat Dec 12, 2015 4:50 am

Quoting PEK777 (Reply 55):
Why not just stick to the current strategy and fly two 50 seat ERJ-145's or CRJ200's 10 minutes apart?

That stopped being funny two years ago.

Quoting B737900ER (Reply 58):
Where does that currently happen?

It doesn't.
146 319 320 321 332 333 343 717 734 735 73G 738 739 744 752 753 763 764 772 77E 77L 77W 788 789 AR1 AT4 CNA CR2 CR7 DC9 ER3 ERD ER4 E70 E75 E90
 
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Devilfish
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RE: UA Looking For 100-seat Aircraft

Sat Dec 12, 2015 5:01 am

Quoting Viscount724 (Reply 60):
The only reason carriers like WS are still flying them is because they have them and there's no market for them used.

Well, even if quite uneconomical, those are paid for and must have suited their network dependably. Tunisair doesn't seem to mind and will likely use theirs till those can no longer fly.....

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B737900ER
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RE: UA Looking For 100-seat Aircraft

Sat Dec 12, 2015 5:07 am

Quoting adamblang (Reply 62):

Quoting PEK777 (Reply 55):
Why not just stick to the current strategy and fly two 50 seat ERJ-145's or CRJ200's 10 minutes apart?

That stopped being funny two years ago.

Quoting B737900ER (Reply 58):
Where does that currently happen?

It doesn't.

I know it doesn't. I want him to answer. If you're going to troll, at least own it.
 
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jetblastdubai
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RE: UA Looking For 100-seat Aircraft

Sat Dec 12, 2015 5:40 am

Is UA actually looking for these 100-seaters because they want a plane that only holds 100 pax and comfortably flies 1,500 miles or are they looking for a plane that merely satisfies the ALPA scope language so that they can incorporate more 76-seaters into the system at regional costs?

If it's the latter, it would make sense to acquire the least expensive model since operating costs between the E190/195 and CS100 aren't all that different. Having 30-50 (depending on who you ask) used E190s either on or soon to be on the market should present a huge advantage in initial acquisition costs...not to mention a much quicker delivery schedule.

Not sure about the need for a 100-seater to be able to fly coast to coast. If you can't fill your smallest mainline on a relatively long route, maybe the market is better served through a hub.

[Edited 2015-12-11 21:44:43]
 
PlanesNTrains
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RE: UA Looking For 100-seat Aircraft

Sat Dec 12, 2015 5:44 am

Quoting TWA772LR (Reply 50):
Since the only planes in that category A and B maker are the 318 and 736 repectively, it's safe to assume they are exploring the option

I personally think it's safe to assume that they are not. With more or less similar trip costs, but more revenue potential, they'd be crazy not to go 319/73G. Having said that, I'm leaning towards used E190 or new CS100.

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UA444
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RE: UA Looking For 100-seat Aircraft

Sat Dec 12, 2015 6:08 am

73G/A319 above does not fulfill the pilot contract stipulation that a new 100 seater be a new aircraft type not operated. While I don't know if the 318 and 736 technically would count as a new fleet type, they will not be ordered regardless.
 
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TheRedBaron
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RE: UA Looking For 100-seat Aircraft

Sat Dec 12, 2015 6:20 am

Quoting UA444 (Reply 19):
UA isn't ordering a Russian jet.

After all its United.  
Quoting UA444 (Reply 23):
US airlines aren't buying Russian planes. For operational and political reasons. An LCC in Mexico is not anywhere close to the same.

It might be for political reasons and they don't want to have a black eye because they ordered some Russian product.

What are the real disadvantages of the SSJ against the competition, it has more time flying that the Bmbardier product, better reliability that the Embraer, and a very good price... but heck United being United, will not even open that can of worms.

Someday the SSJ will get a big order in the US (specially if they make the 130 seater) and analyst will wonder why it took so long.

United will order the Bombardier product at rock bottom prices...

TRB
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PlanesNTrains
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RE: UA Looking For 100-seat Aircraft

Sat Dec 12, 2015 6:28 am

Quoting UA444 (Reply 67):
73G/A319 above does not fulfill the pilot contract stipulation that a new 100 seater be a new aircraft type not operated. While I don't know if the 318 and 736 technically would count as a new fleet type, they will not be ordered regardless.

Interesting. I missed that in the discussion. Ok, so no A or B then. So then E vs B.

-Dave
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MAX’d out on MAX threads. If you are starting a thread, and it’s about the MAX - stop. There’s already a thread that covers it.
 
alfa164
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RE: UA Looking For 100-seat Aircraft

Sat Dec 12, 2015 7:27 am

Quoting jetblue1965 (Reply 5):
The last thing I want to see is EMB having complete domination in that space

Why not... if Embraer builds the best plane?

Quoting eielef (Reply 12):
Would they ever consider the Sukhoi Superjet?
Quoting deltadawg (Reply 18):
Everyone here seemingly speaks only of the C100/300 and occasionally the E195 but no one has mentioned the outside chance of a Sukhoi SSJ 100/130.

Putin would hava to do more than take off his shirt to get that order; he'd need to drop his drawers, bend over, and hand each member of UA Board a personal tube of Vasoline...   

Quoting UA444 (Reply 23):
US airlines aren't buying Russian planes. For operational and political reasons. An LCC in Mexico is not anywhere close to the same.

  

Quoting Thomaas (Reply 37):
Seems that people have forgotten that Boeing still has 25x E190s from AC to place. I bet UA can take over those and also AC's remaining 25 at a good bargain

Very observant. That would fill an instant need and, presumable, if UA wanted a different aircraft in the furure, those E190's could be "sold" to a United Express flyer.

Quoting Thomaas (Reply 49):
I don't know how the A318 and 736 got dragged in here but their economics are well known to be horrific. They are way too heavy for their passenger capacity and even low fuel prices can't make them all that attractive

   1) Fuel prices certainly won't be this low forever; and 2) even with low fuel prices, other aircraft with better fuel burn give better economics.

Low fuel costs may make it economical to keep some existing less-efficient planes, but no one will go out looking to buy a lot more of them.

Quoting UA444 (Reply 67):

73G/A319 above does not fulfill the pilot contract stipulation that a new 100 seater be a new aircraft type not operated. While I don't know if the 318 and 736 technically would count as a new fleet type, they will not be ordered regardless.

Good information! I suspect the inclusion of A & B might just be a "bargaining chip" on the part of UA management.

Quoting PEK777 (Reply 55):
Why not just stick to the current strategy and fly two 50 seat ERJ-145's or CRJ200's 10 minutes apart?

   I thought it was very funny - but the over-sensitive UA fan boys sure got their panties in a wad, didn't they?
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rta
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RE: UA Looking For 100-seat Aircraft

Sat Dec 12, 2015 8:17 am

Quoting TWA772LR (Reply 50):
That, and the fact that the commonality of the types, coupled with the fact UA has huge 32X and 737 fleets, the minimal cost should offset the weight issue.

The weight issue is that if were looking to buy a 736 or A318, they would just buy a 73G or A319 because they wouldn't save any money by operating the shrink. Given that they aren't looking for an A319/73G size plane, I think its fairly safe to assume that Boeing/Airbus are not likely to be in the mix.

For an order of 25-50 planes, commonality is not that important.

Quoting Adipasquale (Reply 61):
Nobody has answered my question of what special tooling the 736 requires. Since the other three variants of the 737NG are still rolling off the line, why couldn't Boeing build 736s if a customer wanted them?

You would have to ask Boeing. None of us will know for certain. We could speculate that 736s could be easily made, but who knows what goes on during manufacturing.

[Edited 2015-12-12 00:21:48]
 
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TWA772LR
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RE: UA Looking For 100-seat Aircraft

Sat Dec 12, 2015 8:46 am

Quoting rta (Reply 72):
For an order of 25-50 planes, commonality is not that important.

That's actually an inverse relationship. If WN, a 737 only operator, we're to buy a fleet of 25 A318s, the costs would be outrageous. You'd have to train pilots, FAs, mechanics, new equipment, etc... if they were to buy 100+ A318s, then the integration and training and equipment costs would be spread out over each frame. Now if WN were to buy 736s, those aforementioned costs would be minimal, if not at all.

That's why when airlines go through massive fleet workovers, subfleets are almost always the first to go because they don't fit with the rest of the fleet and that's a lot of cost to carry that's associated with such little capital.
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rta
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RE: UA Looking For 100-seat Aircraft

Sat Dec 12, 2015 9:13 am

I'm not disagreeing with you, but for most people the benefits of having the right plane for the mission will likely outweigh the costs of having to introduce a new type, especially at scale (UA said up to 50, but even 25 is a fair number). I could name many examples with other airlines. I think, WN (along with a few others) are an exception given their non-traditional hub and spoke model.
 
dbo861
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RE: UA Looking For 100-seat Aircraft

Sat Dec 12, 2015 1:19 pm

Quoting eugdjinn (Reply 25):

At 103 seats, you are required to have three flight attendants. A cost. At 120 seats, you have three flight attendants, at 149 seats, you have the same three flight attendants, spread over more revenue generating seats.

FAs aren't a huge cost to airlines. Even at the top of the payscale, it would only take an additional 1-2 passengers each flight to cover what it costs to pay another FA. And I guarantee the senior FAs won't be flying the short hops these small aircraft will be flown on. Delta has no problem putting 110 seats on their 717s.

Quoting eugdjinn (Reply 25):
Would you really be o.k. with only two lavatories? Really? For 100-120 people?

WN only has 2 lavs on their 73Gs with 143 passengers. I don't think two lavs for 23-43 fewer people would be that big of a deal.

Quoting sldispatcher (Reply 31):
For me, I'm interested in how the Republic order plays into this along with the more customer friendly attitude seems to be creeping back into the culture at United. I

I agree with this. Republic is desperate to get rid of these aircraft on order, and could easily offload them to United. Also, since they were a launch customer, I'm sure they got them at rock bottom prices. Now, the question is would UA lease them from Republic or just takeover the delivery slots.
 
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TheRedBaron
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RE: UA Looking For 100-seat Aircraft

Sat Dec 12, 2015 1:57 pm

That the 190 is the best is up to debate:

SSJ-100 Versus E-190 Economic Analysis (by LAXDESI Sep 17 2011 in Tech Ops)

But United being United I doubt they even mentioned the posibility of buying.

TRB
The best seat in a Plane is the Jumpseat.
 
brilondon
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RE: UA Looking For 100-seat Aircraft

Sat Dec 12, 2015 2:06 pm

Quoting behramjee (Reply 4):
The CS100 is indeed the best aircraft for UA for this market size segment as it has a long flying range (6 hours) + can carry cargo in the belly too which the E90 cannot

The belly cargo on these sized aircraft is really a non issue. For what I see as 100 seat mission would be uneconomical to use such an aircraft. You want these aircraft turned as soon as possible to get them in the air quickly. Belly cargo would slow up the the turnaround times, use up extra fuel and not be very profitable. The airlines are not looking at these aircraft for cargo capacity.
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alfa164
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RE: UA Looking For 100-seat Aircraft

Sat Dec 12, 2015 2:32 pm

Quoting brilondon (Reply 78):
The belly cargo on these sized aircraft is really a non issue

Except in the case of checked baggage. One of the limitations of the CRJ-family is the need tl leave behind baggage (or passengers) because of the weight-and-balance issues.

In the comparison of SSJ to E90, the E90 allows for more than a half-ton additional cargo/baggage capacity. That could be an advantage.
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eugdjinn
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RE: UA Looking For 100-seat Aircraft

Sat Dec 12, 2015 3:19 pm

Quoting PEK777 (Reply 55):

Why not just stick to the current strategy and fly two 50 seat ERJ-145's or CRJ200's 10 minutes apart?

Pilot costs, it's inefficient. Better to use one crew, one aircraft, one movement and we're only just now seeing that trickle through Operations. - Hooray!

Quoting Adipasquale (Reply 61):
Nobody has answered my question of what special tooling the 736 requires. Since the other three variants of the 737NG are still rolling off the line, why couldn't Boeing build 736s if a customer wanted them?

They probably could. Nobody in their right mind would order it. If Chevy could build you a Pinto, would you order it? No. (Look it up, you're probably too young.) It was a dog, it is a dog and it would have zero resale, inappropriately high operating costs and not do the job as efficiently as its competitors. It would also be poor stewardship of corporate assets by the executives.

Quoting jetblastdubai (Reply 65):
Not sure about the need for a 100-seater to be able to fly coast to coast.

Seriously? Not the mission for this aircraft. Really not. This purchase frees A319s to do just that, which they were designed for, can do, and should be doing. This is not a trans-continental aircraft purchase. This is not a Hawaii to mainland aircraft, not a trans-Atlantic aircraft purchase. This is 500-1500 mi hops, day in, day out. This is Billings to ORD, San Fran to PDX, DEN to MCI. This is piddly stuff Air, old time DC-9 flying on Texas Intl. Turn and Burn service, with a smile ala PSA, where even the plane is grinning at you. Come on, gang, this is workhorse stuff finally finding its way OFF of United Express' massive 50 seat RJ solution. Where are the raving hordes cheering?

And why is nobody secretly cheering the fact that the pay rate tucked into that contract wasn't for the smallest plane possible? Didn't the fact that they got the 300 and not the 100 quietly speak to a positive sign in anyone else's mind that it was better to look at 120 seat aircraft and a revenue strategy that priced for breaking even with 15 empty seats than to buy a plane where you had to fill all but a few every time?? That was the hidden jewel in my mind.
 
SonomaFlyer
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RE: UA Looking For 100-seat Aircraft

Sat Dec 12, 2015 5:41 pm

The Bombardier product offers flexibility and allows an airline to scale service anywhere in their network to demand. I know a Bombardier order might carry some risk but an a/c with transcon range (and also excellent short field and hot/high) would be a very good addition to the UA fleet.

Bombardier will deal to close a good sized order. If UA is smart, they will have an order in the 40-50 range plus options and build in costs for each type. Adding a pay line on the CS100 for the pilots will be easy; they'll love additional main line a/c coming on board.
 
strfyr51
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RE: UA Looking For 100-seat Aircraft

Sat Dec 12, 2015 5:57 pm

UAL has Pilot contract rates for the E190, E195 and the CS100 , CS300...
ALPA has already saw to that in the last contract the caps on UAX have already been settled as well..
If United want more E175's they have to expand the airplanes Mainline flies that United Could fly and maintain all the UAX airplanes.
I think this is the ultimate goal ..Will it EVER Happen?? I doubt it.
But!! I think they might have laid the Ground work For it to happen..
TIME WILL TELL!! And I'd bet that ANY UAX pilot would like the scenario.
 
FlyHossD
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RE: UA Looking For 100-seat Aircraft

Sat Dec 12, 2015 6:00 pm

Quoting strfyr51 (Reply 84):
UAL has Pilot contract rates for the E190, E195 and the CS100 , CS300...

Take a look again; there's not a pay rate for the CS100.

See reply 6:

Quoting FlyHossD (Reply 6):
There's a pay rate in the United ALPA contract for the CS300, but not the CS100.
My statements do not represent my former employer or my current employer and are my opinions only.
 
jetblue1965
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RE: UA Looking For 100-seat Aircraft

Sat Dec 12, 2015 6:15 pm

Quoting FlyHossD (Reply 85):

This is beyond ridiculous that an airline's ability to procure the best plane for their route network is restricted by what the pilot union demands, as if ALPA are the subject matter expertise in route profitability.
 
SonomaFlyer
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RE: UA Looking For 100-seat Aircraft

Sat Dec 12, 2015 6:37 pm

It's called collective bargaining, deal with it. CS100 rates can be easily addressed.
 
jetblue1965
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RE: UA Looking For 100-seat Aircraft

Sat Dec 12, 2015 6:54 pm

Quoting SonomaFlyer (Reply 87):

More like blackmailing. ALPA very likely will force UA to make even more unnecessary concessions just to get a CS100 rate.

If the bargaining was actually done in good faith I'm okay, but usually it's more "give us everything on the demand sheet or we strike" kind of unconstructive attitude that plagues the tables.
 
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Revelation
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RE: UA Looking For 100-seat Aircraft

Sat Dec 12, 2015 7:12 pm

Quoting TheRedBaron (Reply 68):
What are the real disadvantages of the SSJ against the competition, it has more time flying that the Bmbardier product, better reliability that the Embraer, and a very good price... but heck United being United, will not even open that can of worms.

The very real possibility that a political incident could lead to total shutdown of access to parts and service.

Personally I would not buy a Russian lawn mower for that reason, so I can see why a large corporation would not invest $billions in a fleet of Russian airliners.
Wake up to find out that you are the eyes of the world
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Wake now, discover that you are the song that the morning brings
The heart has its seasons, its evenings and songs of its own
 
SonomaFlyer
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RE: UA Looking For 100-seat Aircraft

Sat Dec 12, 2015 7:27 pm

Quoting jetblue1965 (Reply 88):

Quoting SonomaFlyer (Reply 87):

More like blackmailing. ALPA very likely will force UA to make even more unnecessary concessions just to get a CS100 rate.

If the bargaining was actually done in good faith I'm okay, but usually it's more "give us everything on the demand sheet or we strike" kind of unconstructive attitude that plagues the tables.

It sounds like you don't know federal law regarding strikes as an option.

The pilots in general across the industry were hosed by work rule changes and pay cuts imposed during numerous bankruptcies. Now that pilots are retiring and few are coming into the field, the bargaining momentum has shift substantially. Pilots may cave in due to fear mongering and posturing but if they are smart, they will be tough at the table and exact a great contract.

SCOPE, pay, work rules and quality of life are all important points the pilots intend to address. A CS100 pay scale is something which can be done outside Section 6 bargaining with a side letter w/o any drama.
 
jetblue1965
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RE: UA Looking For 100-seat Aircraft

Sat Dec 12, 2015 7:36 pm

Quoting SonomaFlyer (Reply 90):

The unions agreed to those so called work rule changes so I don't see what's the point of grievance. Once you sign onto something willingly, and that includes usage of a neutral arbitrator, one loses the right to complain. Are you sure the fear mongering is from the management side and not the union side ?

Maybe you missed recent memos on how DL had to cancel plane orders because they failed to get the agreement from their pilot groups to fly those planes ?
 
deltal1011man
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RE: UA Looking For 100-seat Aircraft

Sat Dec 12, 2015 7:56 pm

Quoting jetblue1965 (Reply 91):

The unions agreed to those so called work rule changes so I don't see what's the point of grievance. Once you sign onto something willingly, and that includes usage of a neutral arbitrator, one loses the right to complain. Are you sure the fear mongering is from the management side and not the union side ?

Not always true. A judge can, and has, imposes terms on unions during the 1113 process

Quoting jetblue1965 (Reply 91):

Maybe you missed recent memos on how DL had to cancel plane orders because they failed to get the agreement from their pilot groups to fly those planes ?

Also not true. Delta "canceled' its carrot airplane order they used to pass the stick (aka TA15)

but not a single thing is stopping DL from ordering those airplanes right now. They already have 739s in fleet and on order and as a matter of fact would have LOWER operating costs if they were to operate the E90 under the current CBA vs the TA they offered the pilots. (E90/E95 rates went up in TA15 compared to where they are in C12)
 
PlanesNTrains
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RE: UA Looking For 100-seat Aircraft

Sat Dec 12, 2015 7:59 pm

Quoting jetblue1965 (Reply 91):
The unions agreed to those so called work rule changes so I don't see what's the point of grievance.

But so did the airline, right?

Quoting jetblue1965 (Reply 91):
Once you sign onto something willingly, and that includes usage of a neutral arbitrator, one loses the right to complain.

So if they both agreed to NOT have a CS100 rate, then shouldn't "we" stop complaining?

-Dave
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jetblue1965
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RE: UA Looking For 100-seat Aircraft

Sat Dec 12, 2015 8:07 pm

Quoting Deltal1011man (Reply 92):

If the judge is the one imposing it, why is the anger directed at management then ? Did management force the judge to rule a certain way ?

And you agree that order was a carrot and stick issue, which reinforces my original point that management cannot independently order planes best suited for the route network without meddling from/with the pilot groups. The pilots' job is to fly the planes safely, not dictate which planes are worthy of them to fly.
 
tomcat
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RE: UA Looking For 100-seat Aircraft

Sat Dec 12, 2015 8:13 pm

Quoting Revelation (Reply 89):
The very real possibility that a political incident could lead to total shutdown of access to parts and service.

Boeing (and its customers) is widely exposed to such a political risk (please find the link below). For example, Boeing has established a joint venture with VPMO to supply 50% of the titanimium used in the 787. The 777X will also be heavily reliant on Russian titanium. I understand that this risk may be deemed unbearable by an airline, but it shouldn't be overstated. Afterall, the engines and most of the electronic components of the SSJ are made in the western world.

http://www.aerotime.aero/en/commerci...ply-titanium-components-for-boeing
 
deltal1011man
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RE: UA Looking For 100-seat Aircraft

Sat Dec 12, 2015 8:16 pm

Quoting jetblue1965 (Reply 94):

If the judge is the one imposing it, why is the anger directed at management then ? Did management force the judge to rule a certain way ?

Because generally management gives the judge its wish list of what they want (not need, want) then will come to the union before the judge and offer a contract that is just a 1/16th of a step above said wish list. Some times the unions let the judge impose terms (because a contract must be agreed to before leaving BK) sometimes they don't.

but generally management is open and honest it isn't a list of needs, they are cutting to cut. (and in most cases then take large stock bonuses after the fact)

Quoting jetblue1965 (Reply 94):

And you agree that order was a carrot and stick issue, which reinforces my original point that management cannot independently order planes best suited for the route network without meddling from/with the pilot groups

management put themselves in that situation. Not the employees.

Delta has ordered just over 250 aircraft (739, 321, 333, 339, 359, M90) post merger, not a single one of those aircraft were "approved" by a single frontline employee.

The 88 717s and 40 739/20 E90s (up to 50) have been put into the TAs BY MANAGEMENT to get concessions from the pilot group. Also both C12(717) and TA15(E90) used those jets as a way fro management to get more 76-seaters. Management put that in there, not pilots.

As normal when it comes to labor, you don't know what you are talking about and you are blaming the pilots for management mistakes. I have yet to meet a single pilot at Delta who believe airplane orders should be tied to contracts. Every single time a US airline has done that, its been management doing the tying, not the union. (and there are cases at DL/UA and AA)

[Edited 2015-12-12 12:17:45]
 
jetblue1965
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RE: UA Looking For 100-seat Aircraft

Sat Dec 12, 2015 8:23 pm

Quoting PlanesNTrains (Reply 93):

False logic. Failing to reach agreement is not the same as signing on. Do you have any proof that UA management purposely and willingly agreed to not include the CS100?

This has every bit of writing on the wall to indicate it's the ALPA issue. They even have meaningless rates for the A380, knowing that UA won't purchase that in a million years, but yet purposely not have one for CS100, which is an obvious gap in their fleet size and one they know management might have some chance of ordering.
 
jetblue1965
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RE: UA Looking For 100-seat Aircraft

Sat Dec 12, 2015 8:26 pm

Quoting Deltal1011man (Reply 96):
I have yet to meet a single pilot at Delta who believe airplane orders should be tied to contracts. Every single time a US airline has done that, its been management doing the tying, not the union. (

This is the kind of blind love for Union and blind hate for management that plagues the industry. So you believe the union can do no wrong ? If that's your view (esp since you're part of a union) then we're done here since logic obviously doesn't apply.
 
deltal1011man
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RE: UA Looking For 100-seat Aircraft

Sat Dec 12, 2015 8:37 pm

Quoting jetblue1965 (Reply 97):

This has every bit of writing on the wall to indicate it's the ALPA issue. They even have meaningless rates for the A380, knowing that UA won't purchase that in a million years, but yet purposely not have one for CS100, which is an obvious gap in their fleet size and one they know management might have some chance of ordering.

So you are saying UA has tried to get a pay rate for the CS100 and UALPA wouldn't negotiate one with them?

Pay rates are put in contracts by management (or at least management starts negotiations for them.) Unions don't just walk in the room and waste time and negotiation capital on pay rates management hasn't asked for. The A380 rate is there because management wanted it there.)
and FWIW looking at a contact for ideas on future aircraft orders is about as dumb as looking at paint lines at airport gates because, as said above, its an easy add via LOA.
So much of the industry is copy and paste from other contracts now days that is why you get those pay rates. IIRC AA also has A380/748 as apart of its newest CBA.

Quoting jetblue1965 (Reply 98):
This is the kind of blind love for Union and blind hate for management that plagues the industry. So you believe the union can do no wrong ? If that's your view (esp since you're part of a union) then we're done here since logic obviously doesn't apply.

Lol. Again I will state you are talking and have no idea what you are talking about. Understanding how the industry works doesn't make me pro-union.


and I'm not part of a union genius. Read above above no knowing what you are talking about.
FWIW i personally like Delta's management team a lot. Wish they did more airframe work in-house than they currently do, but I don't believe a union would help that.

[Edited 2015-12-12 12:39:05]
 
bigb
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RE: UA Looking For 100-seat Aircraft

Sat Dec 12, 2015 8:43 pm

JetBlue, take a step back and look at the collective bargaining process from both a union and management perspective for change.
 
jetblue1965
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RE: UA Looking For 100-seat Aircraft

Sat Dec 12, 2015 8:49 pm

Quoting Deltal1011man (Reply 99):

And how do you know UA's management didn't initially have CS100 rates, only to be forced stricken by ALPA under threat of strike ?

Seriously, blind love of unions or collective bargaining ("I never met a single pilot this and that") doesn't make you a subject matter expert. You have never once exhibited the ability to view a pilot-management or FA-management conflict from the lens of management. You may like DL management, for now, until they start instituting pay cuts at the next economic downturn, but the same can't be said of all other airlines, and hence, you continue to harbor anti management hostility in general.
 
jetblue1965
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RE: UA Looking For 100-seat Aircraft

Sat Dec 12, 2015 8:53 pm

Quoting bigb (Reply 100):

I try to see both sides, but when the overwhelming viewpoint on the forum is blind management hatred, it's hard to have to civilized discussion. They love portraying things like Norma Rae. (It would be like going to DailyKos and asking people to see both sides)

ps my spouse is actually an airline relief pilot, belonging to a union.

[Edited 2015-12-12 12:55:39]
 
PlanesNTrains
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RE: UA Looking For 100-seat Aircraft

Sat Dec 12, 2015 8:55 pm

Quoting jetblue1965 (Reply 97):
Do you have any proof

You mean, like this:

Quoting jetblue1965 (Reply 97):
This has every bit of writing on the wall

-Dave
-Dave


MAX’d out on MAX threads. If you are starting a thread, and it’s about the MAX - stop. There’s already a thread that covers it.
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