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LAXintl
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KU Ends JFK-LHR

Tue Dec 15, 2015 10:05 pm

Well following its fracas with the DOT and inability to board Israeli passengers, looks like the carrier will drop out of the JFK-LHR run.
It notified the DOT it would no longer operate the route on Tuesday and zero'd out availability. This follows a legal appeal it filed in Federal court on Nov 24th against the DOT.


Kuwait Airways drops NYC-London route
http://www.usatoday.com/story/travel...s-drops-nyc-london-route/77370416/

=


Carrier still offers 3x weekly nonstop KWI-JFK service, which I suspect it can bump up in frequency or start to replace with 77Ws as they arrive later in 2016.
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LAX772LR
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RE: KU Ends JFK-LHR

Tue Dec 15, 2015 10:08 pm

To be honest, sort of amazing that they held on to it this long.

I'd heard the flight had long-since developed a comfortable niche in the market, but surprised it carried them this far.
I myself, suspect a more prosaic motive... ~Thranduil
 
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TedToToe
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RE: KU Ends JFK-LHR

Tue Dec 15, 2015 10:22 pm

I wonder what will happen to their LHR slots.
 
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lesfalls
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RE: KU Ends JFK-LHR

Tue Dec 15, 2015 10:23 pm

Quite suprised! Their quite stupid to just end the route while they could instead just comply to the rules. Show how difficult the government and carrier is on Israeli matters. It was nice to have them operate the route at least  
Lufthansa: Einfach ein bisschen mehr.
 
MAH4546
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RE: KU Ends JFK-LHR

Tue Dec 15, 2015 10:30 pm

Great news. Hope they are fined, as well.
a.
 
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DolphinAir747
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RE: KU Ends JFK-LHR

Tue Dec 15, 2015 10:33 pm

Is their exit because of the Israeli affair or is that just an excuse for the fact that the flight was selling at terribly low fares?
 
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OA260
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RE: KU Ends JFK-LHR

Tue Dec 15, 2015 11:00 pm

I flew this route a few times in their B742. Upper deck First Class was great back then and decent Business Class cabin too. This was when KU were in better shape. They managed to run and make decent money on it for a very long time attracting a decent amount of premium traffic between the UK-USA. It will be a shame to see it go.
 
rbavfan
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RE: KU Ends JFK-LHR

Tue Dec 15, 2015 11:33 pm

Quoting Lesfalls (Reply 3):
Quite suprised! Their quite stupid to just end the route while they could instead just comply to the rules.

Except the fact that their government does not recognize that Israel exist. As such they cannot accept a passport form a country thats non existent. Mind you at the same time the person who filed the complaint had BOT US & Israeli passports & chose on purpose to us the Israeli one. The airline does carry jewish passengers & offers kosher meals, but they do not transport Israeli's.

I have israeli relatives that think this whole thing was unnecessary.
 
ltbewr
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RE: KU Ends JFK-LHR

Wed Dec 16, 2015 3:42 am

Maybe the dropping of the route is part of a deal for their actions as to Israeli pax with the USA government. I doubt this is a very profitable route, few Americans, unless from the Islamic world or ancestry or just plane cheap would use KU and from what some have said, selling the seats cheap.
 
AsoRock
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RE: KU Ends JFK-LHR

Wed Dec 16, 2015 4:37 am

Quoting rbavfan (Reply 9):

Except the fact that their government does not recognize that Israel exist. As such they cannot accept a passport form a country thats non existent. Mind you at the same time the person who filed the complaint had BOT US & Israeli passports & chose on purpose to us the Israeli one. The airline does carry jewish passengers & offers kosher meals, but they do not transport Israeli's.

I have israeli relatives that think this whole thing was unnecessary.

Actually most of the Arab countries are technically in a state of war with Israel since its creation. I don't understand what the fuss is about, and why the status quo is now being challenged by a provocative passenger who probably had another passport to use. The countries share no embassies and Kuwait bars Israelis from entering its territory. It's a sovereign right and its airline can also impose this rule on any Israeli passport holder.
 
jacobin777
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RE: KU Ends JFK-LHR

Wed Dec 16, 2015 4:54 am

Quoting AsoRock (Reply 12):
It's a sovereign right and its airline can also impose this rule on any Israeli passport holder.

But not for JFK-LHR. KW must follow the rules of the USofA and the UK.
"Up the Irons!"
 
kaitak
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RE: KU Ends JFK-LHR

Wed Dec 16, 2015 5:11 am

They've been operating this route for decades. I remember flying to Kuwait with my mother and brother in March '81; my father was a visiting professor at Kuwait Uni and we flew out there for three months; the aircraft we took from LHR had just arrived from JFK and we took the same flight on the way back.

So, that ends the last fifth freedom operation on the LHR-JFK route, one which has seen several airlines, including Alitalia, Olympic, EL AL and others operate it down through the decades. AI and KU were the last two and now it's down to four - DL, AA, BA and VS.
 
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ua900
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RE: KU Ends JFK-LHR

Wed Dec 16, 2015 5:13 am

Presenting an Israeli passport was a deliberate choice on the part of the passenger. KU had no right to refuse that passport holder on JFK-LHR as they certainly would on JFK-KWI. Doubt their choice to drop is solely because of this one incident. More likely that they got beat up on the route by competitors.

With alliance carriers throwing very generous mileage bonuses at premium traffic on US-LHR in particular, I'm surprised that there are still non-aligned carriers outside of LCCs on these routes at all. $3,200 for a r/t F ticket in a 3 cabin plane isn't much, yet it will yield close to the max 75k RDM plus the 3-4x 6k bonus for something close to 100k bonus miles, enough for a one way F ticket, i.e. a 50% discount on top of the great F fare. That's more likely to have done KU in on that kind of route, more than some Israeli citizen trying to tick them off and toggle a lawsuit.
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DolphinAir747
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RE: KU Ends JFK-LHR

Wed Dec 16, 2015 5:17 am

Quoting kaitak (Reply 14):
he decades. AI and KU were the last two and now it's down to four - DL, AA, BA and VS.

Two really, AABA and DLVS operate as single airlines in terms of the route. UA still has 5x daily EWR LHR too.
 
bw50505
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RE: KU Ends JFK-LHR

Wed Dec 16, 2015 5:40 am

It's too bad to see KU drop the route, now there's (basically) a duopoly, and I wonder if the consumer will feel the lack of one more competitor...(how much was KU even pulling in the first place?)

bw50505

[Edited 2015-12-15 21:42:03]
 
factsonly
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RE: KU Ends JFK-LHR

Wed Dec 16, 2015 7:14 am

Quoting LAXintl (Thread starter):
Well following its fracas with the DOT and inability to board Israeli passengers, looks like the carrier will drop out of the JFK-LHR run.

KU will NOT drop the route.

KU will operate KWI-LHR-JFK 3x/week, the carrier will merely stop selling local tickets LHR-JFK v.v.
 
skipness1E
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RE: KU Ends JFK-LHR

Wed Dec 16, 2015 10:52 am

Quoting factsonly (Reply 18):
KU will NOT drop the route.
KU will operate KWI-LHR-JFK 3x/week, the carrier will merely stop selling local tickets LHR-JFK

That just makes the red ink bleed faster with the outcome that Kuwait will drop the route.
 
klwright69
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RE: KU Ends JFK-LHR

Wed Dec 16, 2015 11:46 am

Too bad. This airline has been in this market forever and forever. It has always been a favorite topic in a.net, oddball flights. This is always been a perennial favorite.
 
flaps30
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RE: KU Ends JFK-LHR

Wed Dec 16, 2015 1:34 pm

Quoting AsoRock (Reply 11):
Actually most of the Arab countries are technically in a state of war with Israel since its creation. I don't understand what the fuss is about, and why the status quo is now being challenged by a provocative passenger who probably had another passport to use. The countries share no embassies and Kuwait bars Israelis from entering its territory. It's a sovereign right and its airline can also impose this rule on any Israeli passport holder.

I am sure if an Israeli carrier barred a "provocative" Arab holding a passport from any Arab country, they would be called racists by the phony, corrupt media and the corrupt UN.
every day is a good day to fly
 
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BasilFawlty
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RE: KU Ends JFK-LHR

Wed Dec 16, 2015 1:54 pm

Quoting factsonly (Reply 18):
KU will NOT drop the route.

KU will operate KWI-LHR-JFK 3x/week, the carrier will merely stop selling local tickets LHR-JFK v.v.

That's very weird if you ask me. Why on earth would anyone book the one-stop flight while there's a non-stop flight?
'Every year donkeys and mules kill more people than plane crashes'
 
JAGflyer
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RE: KU Ends JFK-LHR

Wed Dec 16, 2015 3:19 pm

My question when the original thread about the Israeli passport holder being turned away was a simple and very reasonable question of why on earth would an Israeli, presumably Jewish passenger want to support a nation (by way of buying an KU ticket) who vehemently opposes the Israeli state? Putting money in the pockets of your enemies is pretty odd thing to want to do.
If you flew today, thank a Flight Dispatcher!
 
jfkgig
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RE: KU Ends JFK-LHR

Wed Dec 16, 2015 3:30 pm

Quoting Jagflyer (Reply 26):
My question when the original thread about the Israeli passport holder being turned away was a simple and very reasonable question of why on earth would an Israeli, presumably Jewish passenger want to support a nation (by way of buying an KU ticket) who vehemently opposes the Israeli state? Putting money in the pockets of your enemies is pretty odd thing to want to do.

I don't think that the victim's motivations are really relevant, but you need to understand the entire factual scenario. The Israeli passport holder did not go to KU's website or buy a KU ticket. Rather, this Israeli passport holder signed on to Priceline (Maybe it was Expedia or Orbitz, but something like that) while in the United States, searched for JFK-LHR fares, and the cheapest ticket was an AI ticket, which he purchased. The AI ticket turned out to be a codeshare flight on KU metal, though according to the FAA decision this was not noted until some time after purchase. So the question is a counterfactual.
 
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TedToToe
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RE: KU Ends JFK-LHR

Wed Dec 16, 2015 8:30 pm

Quoting factsonly (Reply 18):


KU will NOT drop the route.

KU will operate KWI-LHR-JFK 3x/week, the carrier will merely stop selling local tickets LHR-JFK v.v.

Not true. Read the article below and you will see that the 3x/week KWI-JFK route is being retained but the LHR-JFK leg of the 1 stop service is being discontinued.

http://www.businesstraveller.com/new...s-closes-lhr-jfk-route-in-discrimi
 
bennett123
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RE: KU Ends JFK-LHR

Wed Dec 16, 2015 8:44 pm

My understanding is that if an Israeli flew from JFK to KWI they could not clear border control.

Also not sure if they could transit.

What next?.
 
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Polot
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RE: KU Ends JFK-LHR

Wed Dec 16, 2015 9:08 pm

Quoting bennett123 (Reply 49):
My understanding is that if an Israeli flew from JFK to KWI they could not clear border control.

They can't, but in that case KU is allowed to deny boarding them because the passenger doesn't have the proper documentation to enter the country (because Kuwait won't issue the visa required to entered). The US isn't saying Kuwait has to allow Israeli passport holders into the country, just that KU cannot deny passage solely on the basis of nationality. That poses an issue for KU on 5th freedom tags between two countries that allow Israel citizens entry.
 
777way
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RE: KU Ends JFK-LHR

Thu Dec 17, 2015 3:13 am

Quoting tedtotoe (Reply 22):

No it remains operational but LHR-JFK v.v leg will not be sold http://airlineroute.net/2015/12/16/ku-lhrjfk-dec15/
 
N1120A
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RE: KU Ends JFK-LHR

Thu Dec 17, 2015 3:18 am

Quoting bennett123 (Reply 23):
My understanding is that if an Israeli flew from JFK to KWI they could not clear border control.

Also not sure if they could transit.

What next?.

They can't transit, unlike with QR or EK.

Quoting Jagflyer (Reply 20):
My question when the original thread about the Israeli passport holder being turned away was a simple and very reasonable question of why on earth would an Israeli, presumably Jewish passenger want to support a nation (by way of buying an KU ticket) who vehemently opposes the Israeli state? Putting money in the pockets of your enemies is pretty odd thing to want to do.

It appears the passenger did it intentionally to force KU's hand. That's a good thing. KU wasn't complying with the law.

Quoting skipness1E (Reply 16):
That just makes the red ink bleed faster with the outcome that Kuwait will drop the route.

Well, I doubt KU wants to drop JFK.
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777way
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RE: KU Ends JFK-LHR

Thu Dec 17, 2015 3:30 am

Quoting N1120A (Reply 26):

KU werent complying with the law since the 1970s flying this route, thats a long time that no one cared.
 
b747400erf
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RE: KU Ends JFK-LHR

Thu Dec 17, 2015 4:28 am

Quoting 777way (Reply 27):

KU werent complying with the law since the 1970s flying this route, thats a long time that no one cared.

Breaking the law is okay if you do it for a long time?
 
777way
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RE: KU Ends JFK-LHR

Thu Dec 17, 2015 4:35 am

Ahlan ya habibi I was wondering about your absence.

No it means a America more christian and conservative back then was turning a blind eye to the issue or Israelis/jews were a complacent bunch who didnt care about such things.
 
N1120A
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RE: KU Ends JFK-LHR

Thu Dec 17, 2015 4:39 am

Quoting 777way (Reply 27):

KU werent complying with the law since the 1970s flying this route, thats a long time that no one cared.

No one filed a complaint previously.

Quoting B747400ERF (Reply 28):
Breaking the law is okay if you do it for a long time?

Exactly.

Quoting 777way (Reply 29):
No it means a America more christian and conservative back then was turning a blind eye to the issue or Israelis/jews were a complacent bunch who didnt care about such things.

Oh come on. Don't defend their breaking the law and engaging in discrimination.
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777way
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RE: KU Ends JFK-LHR

Thu Dec 17, 2015 4:43 am

Fact remains neither did America care, nor did Jews nor Israeli's, interesting.
 
jc2354
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RE: KU Ends JFK-LHR

Thu Dec 17, 2015 4:50 am

Quoting Jagflyer (Reply 20):
My question when the original thread about the Israeli passport holder being turned away was a simple and very reasonable question of why on earth would an Israeli, presumably Jewish passenger want to support a nation (by way of buying an KU ticket) who vehemently opposes the Israeli state? Putting money in the pockets of your enemies is pretty odd thing to want to do.

Makes me wonder if, and how many, Israeli laws were broken?
If not now, then when?
 
777way
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RE: KU Ends JFK-LHR

Thu Dec 17, 2015 5:10 am

Israel didnt seem to care, even if they knew since they probably have some dept. that keeps track of all issues related to the country.

[Edited 2015-12-16 21:15:06]
 
SKAirbus
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RE: KU Ends JFK-LHR

Thu Dec 17, 2015 2:13 pm

And once again it all tumbles into the terrible dark world of religion.

At times like this I am proud to call myself an atheist... How an airline can discriminate against someone purely on the basis of their religion/nationality is beyond me. I'm glad whomever made the complaint did so as it helps me to add yet another airline to my blacklist, along with QR.
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UALWN
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RE: KU Ends JFK-LHR

Thu Dec 17, 2015 2:25 pm

Quoting skairbus (Reply 34):
How an airline can discriminate against someone purely on the basis of their religion/nationality is beyond me. I'm glad whomever made the complaint did so as it helps me to add yet another airline to my blacklist, along with QR.

It's not about religion, but about nationality:

Quoting rbavfan (Reply 7):
The airline does carry jewish passengers & offers kosher meals

Quite simply, Kuwait does not recognize Israel or its passports. Given this, there's not much KU could do.
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ndhair37
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RE: KU Ends JFK-LHR

Thu Dec 17, 2015 2:34 pm

People asking about slots - they'll keep flying double-daily LHR - KWI but I suspect it will drop down to A306 / A332 so they cater to the appropriate demand as they won't be going through to JFK.
 
planecrazy20
Posts: 31
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RE: KU Ends JFK-LHR

Thu Dec 17, 2015 2:50 pm

Quoting skairbus (Reply 34):
And once again it all tumbles into the terrible dark world of religion.

No it doesn't, Its all political.
KU has had that policy for years as mentioned before, no one seemed to care until recently.
Now, after it has been brought to the attention of the DOT, KU had two options:
- Break Kuwaiti law and allow Israeli passport holders to fly on its JFK-LHR route.
- Stop flying the route.
Since its a Kuwaiti airline based in Kuwait, i think its obvious which option makes more sense.
A lot of people are quick to blame KU, when the airline really has little choice in this situation. Im sure if it legally could, KU would have no problem allowing Israeli passport holders onboard.
KU and Kuwait do NOT have a problem with Jewish people, there are many non Israeli Jewish people living in Kuwait. One of my professors at university is an American Jew and has faced no problems or discrimination whatsoever due to her religion. And if you're wondering, no she does not try to hide it either.
Yes many Kuwaiti's may not agree with Israel's foreign policy, however contrary to belief we can differentiate between the Israeli people and the Israeli government.  
Finally, no we are not antisemetic because -shocker- Arabs are also Semites!

I look forward to the day when this conflict is over, and peace is finally achieved. Until then, this is the unfortunate state of the world we live in.

[Edited 2015-12-17 06:51:28]
 
skipness1E
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RE: KU Ends JFK-LHR

Thu Dec 17, 2015 3:21 pm

Quoting planecrazy20 (Reply 37):
KU and Kuwait do NOT have a problem with Jewish people, there are many non Israeli Jewish people living in Kuwait. One of my professors at university is an American Jew and has faced no problems or discrimination whatsoever due to her religion.

Genuine question then, why won't Kuwait Airlines allow Israelis to fly on their aircraft if they "have no problem".

Quoting ndhair37 (Reply 36):
People asking about slots - they'll keep flying double-daily LHR - KWI but I suspect it will drop down to A306 / A332 so they cater to the appropriate demand as they won't be going through to JFK.

It's only ten weekly at the mo.
 
planecrazy20
Posts: 31
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RE: KU Ends JFK-LHR

Thu Dec 17, 2015 3:46 pm

Quoting skipness1E (Reply 38):
Genuine question then, why won't Kuwait Airlines allow Israelis to fly on their aircraft if they "have no problem".

The part you quoted in my post clearly states Jewish people, not Israelis. KU is a Kuwaiti airline. Kuwaiti law prohibits any Kuwaiti person/business to conduct business with an Israeli person/business.
Just to make it clear this is not my personal opinion on the matter. Just stating facts.

As explained in my post:

Quoting planecrazy20 (Reply 37):
Now, after it has been brought to the attention of the DOT, KU had two options:
- Break Kuwaiti law and allow Israeli passport holders to fly on its JFK-LHR route.
- Stop flying the route.
Since its a Kuwaiti airline based in Kuwait, i think its obvious which option makes more sense.
A lot of people are quick to blame KU, when the airline really has little choice in this situation. Im sure if it legally could, KU would have no problem allowing Israeli passport holders onboard.
 
777way
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RE: KU Ends JFK-LHR

Thu Dec 17, 2015 4:28 pm

Quoting skairbus (Reply 34):

Funny that an atheist should be so concerned about passengers not being accomodated on basis of their religion.

Quoting planecrazy20 (Reply 37):

There must be countless Israelis working in all Muslim countries using passports of other places, both illegally and as legal dual citizens born elsewhere.

BTW Israel will now have a permanent mission in Abu Dhabi related to enviromental issues, UAE has no choice but to host them thanks to the hypocrite UN.
 
RIX
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RE: KU Ends JFK-LHR

Thu Dec 17, 2015 4:57 pm

Quoting 777way (Reply 40):
the hypocrite UN

Finally, something I agree with you on  
 
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jfklganyc
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RE: KU Ends JFK-LHR

Fri Dec 18, 2015 3:04 am

http://nypost.com/2015/12/17/jew-hat...her-than-allow-israeli-passengers/

Well, they are getting good press in NYC.

You have to understand, in NYC, we really like Jewish people. So this kinda stuff doesn't go over well.

While the Post is known for its sensational, the headline fits how this airline is viewed by the NY populace.
 
777way
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RE: KU Ends JFK-LHR

Fri Dec 18, 2015 3:32 am

Again route was on since 70s with no care by US authorities, what does that say? till this idiot with some political agenda stirred up things, probably got jealous. UK didnt seem to give two hoots about it, or are British jews a different breed for not trying this cunning stunt? or travel on their UK passport.
 
flyguy89
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RE: KU Ends JFK-LHR

Fri Dec 18, 2015 4:07 am

Quoting 777way (Reply 43):
Again route was on since 70s with no care by US authorities, what does that say? till this idiot with some political agenda stirred up things, probably got jealous.

Slavery in the United States also went on for decades. Thank God some "idiots" with a political agenda decided to stir the pot though. Discriminatory Jim Crow laws also were enforced for decades, but thankfully some people that cared enough got that changed.
 
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thekorean
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RE: KU Ends JFK-LHR

Fri Dec 18, 2015 4:36 am

Quoting 777way (Reply 43):

If you want to fly between two countries thats not your own, you better damn wel obey their laws.
 
ROSWELL41
Posts: 777
Joined: Mon Aug 20, 2001 3:50 am

RE: KU Ends JFK-LHR

Fri Dec 18, 2015 4:45 am

Good riddance to Kuwait Airlines. Emirates, Etihad and Qatar Airways look progressive and liberal by comparison.
 
WearyDrover
Posts: 662
Joined: Sat Jul 18, 2015 2:12 am

RE: KU Ends JFK-LHR

Fri Dec 18, 2015 5:00 am

Quoting 777way (Reply 43):

Something does not cease to be wrong simply because no one does anything to correct it. A court can not make a ruling until someone raises the matter for it to be judged. Now someone has challenged KU's violation of US law and the court has handed down its verdict. Where's the problem?

It doesn't matter whether the passenger who filed made the booking thinking another carrier flew the route or to deliberately see whether KU would deny boarding; the fact remains that KU was operating in breach of US law.

They have now decided to no longer offer JFK-LHR as a product. Whether this is purely to comply with both US and Kuwaiti law or a commercial decision based on yield is open to discussion

[Edited 2015-12-17 21:01:17]
A man may learn wisdom even from a foe - Aristophanes
 
N1120A
Posts: 26509
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RE: KU Ends JFK-LHR

Fri Dec 18, 2015 5:31 am

Quoting 777way (Reply 40):
Funny that an atheist should be so concerned about passengers not being accomodated on basis of their religion.

I'm an atheist, and yet defend religious liberty constantly.

Quoting 777way (Reply 43):
Again route was on since 70s with no care by US authorities, what does that say?

It says no one filed a complaint
Mangeons les French fries, mais surtout pratiquons avec fierte le French kiss
 
us330
Posts: 3506
Joined: Tue Aug 08, 2000 7:00 am

RE: KU Ends JFK-LHR

Fri Dec 18, 2015 6:53 am

Quoting planecrazy20 (Reply 37):
Finally, no we are not antisemetic because -shocker- Arabs are also Semites

How is that relevant? The definition of anti-Semitism, according to Merriam Webster is "hostility toward or discrimination against Jews as a religious, ethnic, or racial group."
http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/anti%20semitism

So yes, Arabs can be anti-Semitic. Jews can be anti-Semitic (ie the "self-loathing Jew"). African-Americans can be racist against other African-Americans.

While Arabs are a Semitic people, anti-Semitism specifically refers to hatred of Jews, not hatred of Semitic peoples. One's status as a member of a certain group doesn't preclude someone from hating or discriminating against others from the same group.

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Government Aircraft Aircraft flying government officials

Helicopters Our large helicopter section. Both military and civil versions

Blimps / Airships Everything from the Goodyear blimp to the Zeppelin

Night Photos Beautiful shots taken while the sun is below the horizon

Accidents Accident, incident and crash related photos

Air to Air Photos taken by airborne photographers of airborne aircraft

Special Paint Schemes Aircraft painted in beautiful and original liveries

Airport Overviews Airport overviews from the air or ground

Tails and Winglets Tail and Winglet closeups with beautiful airline logos