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KarelXWB
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Transport Canada Certifies CS100 Jet

Thu Dec 17, 2015 10:10 pm

Transport Canada just certified the first CSeries type (CS100). A press conference with the official announcement is scheduled for tomorrow (December 18) at 9am local time. The Minister of Transport will attend the conference.

More details to follow.


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[Edited 2015-12-17 14:32:10]
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nikeson13
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RE: Transport Canada Certifies CS100 Jet

Thu Dec 17, 2015 10:18 pm

Congrats to BBD! Can't wait to see the orders flow in(hopefully).  

Press Conference tommorow at YMX http://news.gc.ca/web/article-en.do?nid=1025329
Nikolas
 
Sooner787
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RE: Transport Canada Certifies CS100 Jet

Thu Dec 17, 2015 10:21 pm

Congratulations to everyone at BBD who brought this bird to this point.

Hopefully , it will catch on with airlines and enjoy a stellar career
 
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RE: Transport Canada Certifies CS100 Jet

Thu Dec 17, 2015 10:25 pm

Congratulations to BBD. Now we wait on those orders apparently waiting on certification. Hopefully for BBD these were more than just rumours.
Quantos,

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DALCE
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RE: Transport Canada Certifies CS100 Jet

Thu Dec 17, 2015 10:34 pm

Good news!

Hopefully a large order pops up soon for this beauty!
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Wingtip1005
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RE: Transport Canada Certifies CS100 Jet

Thu Dec 17, 2015 10:43 pm

Brilliant, Congratulations BBD!

Hopefully the darkest part of this saga is behind them now
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ADent
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RE: Transport Canada Certifies CS100 Jet

Thu Dec 17, 2015 11:16 pm

Congrats to BBD - and P&W.
 
YXXMIKE
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RE: Transport Canada Certifies CS100 Jet

Thu Dec 17, 2015 11:24 pm

Well that can't be a bad thing for the programme!

Now for an order or two but preferably three  
 
Skywatcher
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RE: Transport Canada Certifies CS100 Jet

Fri Dec 18, 2015 12:51 am

The long, hard turn around is finally happening!

I hope they let the Q-400 die a dignified death and focus on the C series. That land at Downsview must be worth hundreds of millions that could be re-invested in lowering the selling prices until production gears up.
 
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RE: Transport Canada Certifies CS100 Jet

Fri Dec 18, 2015 12:58 am

Will JAA/EASA and FAA certification follow automatically or must BBD do testflights for them as well?

Great news, congrats to BBD, the CS100 is a beautiful bird and I'm sure SWISS will love them.
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Thenoflyzone
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RE: Transport Canada Certifies CS100 Jet

Fri Dec 18, 2015 1:33 am

Quoting CRJ900 (Reply 9):
Will JAA/EASA and FAA certification follow automatically or must BBD do testflights for them as well?

First delivery is 6 months away, maybe sooner. EASA certification should come first, sometime in January or February.
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Dash9
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RE: Transport Canada Certifies CS100 Jet

Fri Dec 18, 2015 1:37 am

Quoting CRJ900 (Reply 9):
Will JAA/EASA and FAA certification follow automatically or must BBD do testflights for them as well?

It is not automatic but typically it only requires paperwork as there is a trust between authorities of G7 countries such as FAA, EASA, TC and others. I expect these to certify the BD-500-1A10 within weeks.

That trust actually lacks with the Chinese Authority hence why the ARJ-21 will not be certified by FAA, EASA and others. As for the Comac 919, time will tell..

-Dash9
 
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RE: Transport Canada Certifies CS100 Jet

Fri Dec 18, 2015 2:01 am

Quoting nikeson13 (Reply 1):


Press Conference tommorow at YMX http://news.gc.ca/web/article-en.do?nid=1025329

Wonder if the event will also include an announcement by the federal government that they're contributing to the CSeries bailout? The Quebec government and Bombardier have requested the federal government to match Quebec's $1 billion (US) contribution, implying that they don't think $1 billion is enough.

This from November 30.
http://www.theglobeandmail.com/repor...-aid-for-c-series/article27536582/
 
Dash9
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RE: Transport Canada Certifies CS100 Jet

Fri Dec 18, 2015 2:11 am

Quoting Viscount724 (Reply 12):

Wonder if the event will also include an announcement by the federal government that they're contributing to the CSeries bailout? The Quebec government and Bombardier have requested the federal government to match Quebec's $1 billion (US) contribution, implying that they don't think $1 billion is enough.

I think the timing would not be good. In tomorrow's announcement the federal govt acts as a trusted regulator and there shall not be any doubt that this certification is deserved due to high technical standards and not any political will to promote an industry.

My bet is that the Feds will 'invest' money in a few weeks or months.

-Dash9
 
ac888yow
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RE: Transport Canada Certifies CS100 Jet

Fri Dec 18, 2015 2:21 am

It could be interesting to examine the TCDS when published.

[Edited 2015-12-17 18:26:08]

[Edited 2015-12-17 18:26:28]

[Edited 2015-12-17 18:27:37]
 
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lightsaber
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RE: Transport Canada Certifies CS100 Jet

Fri Dec 18, 2015 2:55 am

I thought I would be more excited. Maybe announcing the same time Star Wars Episode VII isn't a great bit of timing?  

Right as most coworkers started their holiday.... (Alas, I'm on mandatory overtime...).

Quoting dash9 (Reply 11):
That trust actually lacks with the Chinese Authority hence why the ARJ-21 will not be certified by FAA, EASA and others. As for the Comac 919, time will tell..

There is more than that. The Chinese authorities were not asking COMAC for analysis required for FAA certification. It isn't just trust. For example the Russians and FAA met for years to mutually agree that despite different approaches the two certs. Now, FAA certification would never satisfy Russian anti-icing requirements, but Russia requires overdesign due to different standards on production.

Canada and the US aligned years ago. While not exact, close enough. I don't know about EASA. Sometimes just a little more data is required. Even between 'trusted'.

China just refused to be serious in enforcement of agreed criteria and isn't going to be recognized.


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KarelXWB
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RE: Transport Canada Certifies CS100 Jet

Fri Dec 18, 2015 8:46 am

Quoting CRJ900 (Reply 9):
Will JAA/EASA and FAA certification follow automatically or must BBD do testflights for them as well?

I believe EASA / FAA certification is expected in January.
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Beatyair
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RE: Transport Canada Certifies CS100 Jet

Fri Dec 18, 2015 9:06 am

Quoting thenoflyzone (Reply 10):
First delivery is 6 months away, maybe sooner. EASA certification should come first, sometime in January or February.

Bombardier started production a few months ago.

We forget how much it takes for any manufacturer to produce am aircraft. Good job Bombardier!!!
Now, come on United Airlines.

Lets hope that this aircraft does not end up like the 717. Few orders and airlines want them after production ends and they are cheaper.
 
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RE: Transport Canada Certifies CS100 Jet

Fri Dec 18, 2015 9:55 am

planemaker's silence in noticeable to the least      
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RE: Transport Canada Certifies CS100 Jet

Fri Dec 18, 2015 10:06 am

Congrats BBD,

This is in my view one of the biggest changes that will impact on a lot of smaller communities. Larger aircraft often get the headlines, it is aircraft like this that will make air travel a lot more affordable to more remote areas.

Well done, it was not an easy development, but a very nice end product IMHO.

     
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Amiga500
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RE: Transport Canada Certifies CS100 Jet

Fri Dec 18, 2015 10:08 am

Quoting DALCE (Reply 18):
planemaker's silence in noticeable to the least

I don't think planemakers problem is the technicals of the aircraft, but of the business case surrounding it.
 
DALCE
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RE: Transport Canada Certifies CS100 Jet

Fri Dec 18, 2015 10:34 am

Quoting Amiga500 (Reply 20):
I don't think planemakers problem is the technicals of the aircraft, but of the business case surrounding it.

hence the 'stir the pot' smiley.  
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RE: Transport Canada Certifies CS100 Jet

Fri Dec 18, 2015 10:44 am

Congrats BBD, best of luck with the sales campaign!


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RE: Transport Canada Certifies CS100 Jet

Fri Dec 18, 2015 11:13 am

Quoting Beatyair (Reply 17):
We forget how much it takes for any manufacturer to produce am aircraft. Good job Bombardier!!!
Now, come on United Airlines

With how this entire program unfolded over the years, I think it's very appropriate to toss a very well deserved KUDOS to BBD & all of those who made this aircraft happen. I hope the "build it & they will come" mindset works out for BBD, I know alot is on the line.

As was rumored this week in another thread UA is looking at a rather decent order for 100 seaters, let's hope UA stays here in North America instead of going to Brazil. The CS looks like a decent plane, but I'll reserve opinion until I fly in it.
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RE: Transport Canada Certifies CS100 Jet

Fri Dec 18, 2015 11:39 am

Congrats to BBD!         
Finally somebody put out again a project aimed to be the top of current technology and not a warmed up remake.
Wish the best to them, and to the peple that trusted them and invested there, notably the P&W folks!
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Amiga500
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RE: Transport Canada Certifies CS100 Jet

Fri Dec 18, 2015 11:56 am

The feedback I've heard (admittedly a 4th or 5th hand) is that the cert authorities think the CSeries is technologically light years ahead of the A320 and B737 families.

Whether that will translate into enough tangible benefits that entice airlines at a price BBD can tolerate remains to be seen.
 
A5XX
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RE: Transport Canada Certifies CS100 Jet

Fri Dec 18, 2015 12:41 pm

Congratulations. At last!  
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KarelXWB
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RE: Transport Canada Certifies CS100 Jet

Fri Dec 18, 2015 2:23 pm

The press conference is about to start.

http://twitter.com/OliBourqueTVA/status/677855147452682241

[Edited 2015-12-18 06:23:35]
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RE: Transport Canada Certifies CS100 Jet

Fri Dec 18, 2015 2:29 pm

What we leave behind is not as important as how we've lived.
 
IWASEYEWITNESS
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RE: Transport Canada Certifies CS100 Jet

Fri Dec 18, 2015 2:33 pm

Quoting Skywatcher (Reply 8):
I hope they let the Q-400 die a dignified death and focus on the C series

Huh?

What's wrong with the Q400? It has issues but it's almost a duopoly with the ATR72!
 
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nikeson13
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RE: Transport Canada Certifies CS100 Jet

Fri Dec 18, 2015 3:01 pm

Looked at BBD Press Release and saw this interesting quote from Dewar(VP, Cseries Program):

Quote:
“While we shift this same focus and dedication towards ensuring a flawless entry-into-service alongside first operator SWISS -- with first delivery planned in the second quarter of 2016 -- we also look forward to continuing demo flights to showcase this magnificent aircraft to airlines and other interested operators around the world.”

also a few other things i have questions on:
Bombardier’s CS300 aircraft, the larger model, is on track to obtain its Type Certificate within the next six months as planned.Bombardier will continue to work with Transport Canada to validate the CS100 aircraft’s training syllabus.
Bombardier has booked orders and commitments for 603 C Series aircraft, which include firm orders for 243.

-By "orders and commitments for 603 aircraft", that includes firm+options+conditional, correct?
-"other interested operators"??? BBJ? Military? possibly just a misphrasing or a stretch by me but seems a bit soon to expand to other markets

Any who, congrats again to BBD! Cant wait to fly it one day.
Nikolas
 
ac888yow
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RE: Transport Canada Certifies CS100 Jet

Fri Dec 18, 2015 3:05 pm

Quoting dash9 (Reply 11):
It is not automatic but typically it only requires paperwork as there is a trust between authorities of G7 countries such as FAA, EASA, TC and others. I expect these to certify the BD-500-1A10 within weeks.

The bilateral agreements between certification authorities typically define 3 categories of involvement when one is asked to accept another's work. Roughly speaking, they are:

1) We accept your findings without further review. File the paperwork and we're done.
2) We're going to accept most of your findings but validate certain others by reviewing data in key areas of concern/interest. An on-site visit is likely.
3) We're going to accept some of your findings but we're going to do a large scale review/validation program. One or more on-site visits is guaranteed.

The time-frame can vary from days/weeks to months to many, many, months.

People are free to guess on which one will occur for the CSeries.

[Edited 2015-12-18 07:07:41]
 
steviecanuck
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RE: Transport Canada Certifies CS100 Jet

Fri Dec 18, 2015 3:14 pm

Here is the link to the CBC news story from this morning http://www.cbc.ca/news/business/bombardier-cseries-friday-1.3371265
 
Rbgso
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RE: Transport Canada Certifies CS100 Jet

Fri Dec 18, 2015 3:55 pm

Congrats to BBD. Can't wait to see this thing in person.
 
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lightsaber
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RE: Transport Canada Certifies CS100 Jet

Fri Dec 18, 2015 5:51 pm

Quoting Amiga500 (Reply 25):
The feedback I've heard (admittedly a 4th or 5th hand) is that the cert authorities think the CSeries is technologically light years ahead of the A320 and B737 families.

Authorities are getting used to FBW certification. Old school controls cannot be 'lab tested' to an understanding like FBW. Hundreds of potential failure modes are tested that old school airframes do not find until years of service. The latest FBW also finds issues before that mechanic inspection. As much trouble as the 787 had at first, excluding one airline, it is setting records for reliability.

This isn't the 777, A320, or A330 FBW. Logic ability of FBW is quantified by lines of code. A 777 runs on the i486. A typical cell phone has orders of magnitude more logic capability.

And remember, an aircraft by certification rules must show it NEVER uses more than 50% of processing power or memory, or it doesn't carry people. Period. That covers 'unknown unknowns'. So at EIS only 10% to 25% is allowed today.

Quoting IWASEYEWITNESS (Reply 29):
What's wrong with the Q400? It has issues but it's almost a duopoly with the ATR72!

The Q400 isn't selling well enough to pay for the production line. It pushed a mid-market between the speed of jets and the Q400. But didn't have the economics of other turboprops. What is the point? There is no duopoly. There are just a few spillover sales from ATR.

The Q400 against the E2 or MRJ?   
Neither will the CRJ survive. So Bombardier has the C-series and future global express. The Challengers are doing OK. The rest of the product line suffered due to over-extension of the engineering.

They bet the house on the C-series. I think it will do extremely well. But airlines need in service data to convince their BODs.

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durangomac
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RE: Transport Canada Certifies CS100 Jet

Fri Dec 18, 2015 6:12 pm

Quoting lightsaber (Reply 34):
I think it will do extremely well. But airlines need in service data to convince their BODs.

This I agree with. I bet some airlines are just too shy to take on a brand new aircraft in 100 seat market that isn't from an established 100+ seat manifacturer.
 
AirbusCanada
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RE: Transport Canada Certifies CS100 Jet

Fri Dec 18, 2015 6:46 pm

Quoting Amiga500 (Reply 25):
The feedback I've heard (admittedly a 4th or 5th hand) is that the cert authorities think the CSeries is technologically light years ahead of the A320 and B737 families.

I am sure CSeries is a very advanced airplane no doubt about that. However, by cert authority you mean Transport Canada, I am sure they will be biased for a home grown product.
 
diverted
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RE: Transport Canada Certifies CS100 Jet

Fri Dec 18, 2015 7:06 pm

Quoting AirbusCanada (Reply 36):

Quoting Amiga500 (Reply 25):
The feedback I've heard (admittedly a 4th or 5th hand) is that the cert authorities think the CSeries is technologically light years ahead of the A320 and B737 families.

I am sure CSeries is a very advanced airplane no doubt about that. However, by cert authority you mean Transport Canada, I am sure they will be biased for a home grown product.

Um, doubtful.

It's just the way it is. Look at the systems architecture between a 320 and a Cseries. You're talking mid 80s tech vs current gen tech. Also, by cert authorities, he could be also referring to the FAA and EASA. Stating facts shows no signs of bias. Also, TC is by no means biased. They're concerned with the safety of aviation, not helping BBD sell airplanes.
 
DALCE
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RE: Transport Canada Certifies CS100 Jet

Fri Dec 18, 2015 7:51 pm

A320 is Commodore64 era, and C-Series is i7-multi quad-core chip era to put it in perspective
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AirbusCanada
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RE: Transport Canada Certifies CS100 Jet

Fri Dec 18, 2015 8:31 pm

Quoting DALCE (Reply 38):
A320 is Commodore64 era, and C-Series is i7-multi quad-core chip era to put it in perspective

Thanks for the clarification. From what i understand from your post is the CSeries/787/A350 will have the latest and greatest electronic hardware/sensor vs. 330/777/320 generation.

Now the question is, how does it increases the capabilities of the software?

can the software designers extract meaningful gain in the areas of safety, operating cost and maintenance? Can someone elaborate?
 
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RE: Transport Canada Certifies CS100 Jet

Fri Dec 18, 2015 9:14 pm

Quoting IWASEYEWITNESS (Reply 29):

There is no duopoly anymore. Other than the odd top up order from existing customers the Q400 is practically dead. ATR has the prop market completely sewn up.

It's sad, the aircraft was over engineered to provide the very best prop experience possible, but then rejected for having high operating costs.
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hilram
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RE: Transport Canada Certifies CS100 Jet

Fri Dec 18, 2015 9:17 pm

Does anybody know how far away they are from getting the CS300 certified?
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Aquila3
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RE: Transport Canada Certifies CS100 Jet

Fri Dec 18, 2015 9:40 pm

Quoting DALCE (Reply 38):
A320 is Commodore64 era

More likely M68K or i8080 - 8088-188-186. Not that I have direct knowledge tough.

Quoting AirbusCanada (Reply 39):
can the software designers extract meaningful gain in the areas of safety, operating cost and maintenance? Can someone elaborate?

Very interesting question. One example is the making of the wing "adaptive" to the variuos phases of flight using the control surfaces like spoilers and ailerons, as I believe they do in the models you just cited.
About writing sw on faster and more complex machines, while it gives you more degrees of freedom due to the speed and the presence of features like memory protection, the product becomes more complex and incresingly difficult to test/debug.
In partcular hard real time systems have they own requisites and must be very deterministic in their answers to external stimuli, so the presence of even very basic features like a cache memory with its MMU give a lot of troubles. My taste goes for fast but rather simpler machines for such kind of tasks. Surely I would not like to do it on the cited i7 quad core. Maybe something like an Arm Cortex M3 I would see more practical.
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AirCanada787
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RE: Transport Canada Certifies CS100 Jet

Fri Dec 18, 2015 11:14 pm

Quoting hilram (Reply 41):

Does anybody know how far away they are from getting the CS300 certified?

The plan is to have it certified in about six months according to Bombardier and other news reports out today.
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Viscount724
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RE: Transport Canada Certifies CS100 Jet

Fri Dec 18, 2015 11:43 pm

Quoting CRJ900 (Reply 9):
the CS100 is a beautiful bird and I'm sure SWISS will love them

LX converted 10 of their 30 CS100 orders to the CS300 last summer, and the original agreement permits them to convert the remaining 10 also. I expect they will. After the first 10 CS100s they say they will then take delivery of 10 CS300s. I doubt they would then revert to the CS100 for the last 10 which would be 2 or 3 years from now. The tendency in all sectors of the market is to the larger models. Look at recent orders for the 737-700 (and -700MAX), A319 (and A319neo), A330-200, ATR-42 etc. compared to larger models of the same family.
http://www.swiss.com/corporate/EN/me...ss-releases/media-release-20150615
 
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RE: Transport Canada Certifies CS100 Jet

Fri Dec 18, 2015 11:55 pm

 
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lightsaber
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RE: Transport Canada Certifies CS100 Jet

Sat Dec 19, 2015 1:10 am

Quoting ac888yow (Reply 31):

The bilateral agreements between certification authorities typically define 3 categories of involvement when one is asked to accept another's work. Roughly speaking, they are:

Nice summary.

It is the wrong time of year. Aerospace is going into holiday mode.

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mrocktor
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RE: Transport Canada Certifies CS100 Jet

Mon Dec 21, 2015 2:38 pm

Quoting Aquila3 (Reply 24):
Finally somebody put out again a project aimed to be the top of current technology and not a warmed up remake.

That's ironic, considering BBD has been dithering on this project since 1995. This is probably the remake of the remake of the remake (they just never built any of the previous ones).

There is nothing on the CSeries that is substantially more advanced than other narrowbodies already in service (or soon to be). Incremental improvements? Sure, plenty. No game changing technology though.

This product will succeed or fail based on how well it meets its performance guarantees, how reliable it is in actual service, how well it is supported, and on whether there is a market for it in the first place (which we will finally find out in the next few years).
 
LSZH34
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RE: Transport Canada Certifies CS100 Jet

Mon Dec 21, 2015 2:58 pm

Any more info on steep approach certification for LCY ops?

Will LX use the CS100 to LUG to achieve their goal of as less wetlease flights as possible? LUG (1420m , 6 degree GS), LCY (1508m , 5.5 degree GS)
The shorter runway length can be compensated by the lower TOW, since you don't need the same amount of fuel from LUG than from LCY.
LX could even challenge the SBB railway. ZRH/GVA-LUG would be a dream.
 
Amiga500
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RE: Transport Canada Certifies CS100 Jet

Mon Dec 21, 2015 3:07 pm

Quoting mrocktor (Reply 47):
There is nothing on the CSeries that is substantially more advanced than other narrowbodies already in service (or soon to be). Incremental improvements? Sure, plenty. No game changing technology though.

Depends what you define as "game changing".

- CFRP wing which will greatly increase inspection intervals c.f. the competition.
- Far more powerful diagnostic package that will allow airlines to perform proactive rather than reactive maintenance (again, c.f. the competition).
- approx 10% CAM (and CASM) improvement relative to competition; that coming from the airframe only given the neo/max.



But I note the lack of noise on orders despite certification. As expected (at least by me, it'll be the first 12 months of in service performance that will make or break the program)

[Edited 2015-12-21 07:08:05]

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Military Aircraft Every type from fighters to helicopters from air forces around the globe

Classic Airliners Props and jets from the good old days

Flight Decks Views from inside the cockpit

Aircraft Cabins Passenger cabin shots showing seat arrangements as well as cargo aircraft interior

Cargo Aircraft Pictures of great freighter aircraft

Government Aircraft Aircraft flying government officials

Helicopters Our large helicopter section. Both military and civil versions

Blimps / Airships Everything from the Goodyear blimp to the Zeppelin

Night Photos Beautiful shots taken while the sun is below the horizon

Accidents Accident, incident and crash related photos

Air to Air Photos taken by airborne photographers of airborne aircraft

Special Paint Schemes Aircraft painted in beautiful and original liveries

Airport Overviews Airport overviews from the air or ground

Tails and Winglets Tail and Winglet closeups with beautiful airline logos