PanHAM
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RE: MEX And BER Will Wait For EK Until 2020

Sun Dec 20, 2015 10:29 am

Quoting tortugamon (Reply 42):
Woohoo, thats like saying that any EU carrier can fly to Texas. I love the country but lets not overstate this economic benefit to the people of the US.

I forgot to mention that with the JV UA can offer Services to all German and European Airports LH / EUW fly to.


The mistake you make is assuming that LH is a German carrier. With the single market, and that is some time established now, LH is a European carrier. The European market has some 500 Million People, that beats the US anytime. Now, the US has 3 Major Players which are based in Chicago, Dallas and Atlanta IIRC. The EU has 2 Major carriers which are based in London Paris and Frankfurt. In many ways both sides offer a Level playing field to each other. The UAE offers Little in return.

.

Quoting WearyDrover (Reply 43):
Their passengers would almost certainly disagree. So would others who benefit from the trade imbalance which is about 9:1 in Germany's favour.

Many passengers do not realize that they fly a lond detour to their destinations, going via the UAE. More time in the air and more CO2 burned. Regarding the trade Balance, what does a manfactured good has to do with a Service industry? besides the UAE establishes some Kind of Las Vegas, in your logic you have to add the monies spent by tourists to achieve a corrct figure.

Quoting tortugamon (Reply 42):
Germany is trying to protect LH. Its fine, lots of nations do similar things but lets not pretend its open/free/fair/capitalistic. Its protectionist

If Germany was to protect LH the Government would abolish night curfews and the passenger tax. Traffic riights are on a reciprocal base and the US is much more protective here than the EU. And I repeat it for the Umteenth time., the ME3 can fly any number of Services they want between 4 cities in Germany and 2 in the UAE. Now tell me, where is Germany protecting LH here?
Was Erlauben Erdogan!!!
 
ThReaTeN
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RE: MEX And BER Will Wait For EK Until 2020

Sun Dec 20, 2015 10:51 am

Quoting PanHAM (Reply 50):
If Germany was to protect LH the Government would abolish night curfews and the passenger tax. Traffic riights are on a reciprocal base and the US is much more protective here than the EU. And I repeat it for the Umteenth time., the ME3 can fly any number of Services they want between 4 cities in Germany and 2 in the UAE. Now tell me, where is Germany protecting LH here?

So if the US government decided that LH could pick any four cities in the US to fly to, but not more, that would be perfectly fine as well?
 
tortugamon
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RE: MEX And BER Will Wait For EK Until 2020

Sun Dec 20, 2015 11:02 am

Quoting seahawk (Reply 46):
If it means cheaper tickets, why not?

Hear hear!

Quoting seahawk (Reply 46):
What makes the airline industry so special, that it must be protected. If LH can not compete with the ME3 they deserve to go down. Just like any other major cooperation unable to survive in a global market. Nobody saved the German clothing industry, the German TV manufacturers and other consumer electronics, the mining industry,....

Agreed.

Quoting lancelot07 (Reply 48):
Well, you might try to persuade Air Berlin to fly to DXB 

Good point. My broader point is that US travel shouldn't be regulated to have to fly through LHR/AMS/FRA in order to get to Middle East.

Quoting PanHAM (Reply 50):
With the single market, and that is some time established now, LH is a European carrier

Why does a well-established carrier have a right to traffic over any other carrier that can operate an alternate route for a different price?

Quoting PanHAM (Reply 50):
The European market has some 500 Million People, that beats the US anytime.

Why is that relevant? So if the UAE launch an agreement with India to negotiate traffic rights together then they should be offered open skies?

Quoting PanHAM (Reply 50):
If Germany was to protect LH the Government would abolish night curfews and the passenger tax.

And if the UK weren't protecting BA they would build 3 runways at LHR. Agreed that Germany could do more for LH. Doesn't mean they don't protect them.

Quoting PanHAM (Reply 50):
Traffic riights are on a reciprocal base and the US is much more protective here than the EU

huh?

Quoting PanHAM (Reply 50):
And I repeat it for the Umteenth time., the ME3 can fly any number of Services they want between 4 cities in Germany and 2 in the UAE. Now tell me, where is Germany protecting LH here?

Repeating it doesn't make it true. Any limitation is protection. If the US limited Germany traffic to 8 cities it would be protectionist too.

tortugamon
 
lancelot07
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RE: MEX And BER Will Wait For EK Until 2020

Sun Dec 20, 2015 11:03 am

Quoting ThReaTeN (Reply 51):
So if the US government decided that LH could pick any four cities in the US to fly to, but not more, that would be perfectly fine as well?

Well, if US government would agree to US airlines only flying to 2 destinations in the EU ....
The idea is ridiculous. The US and the EU are fairly equal sized markets. There is gain for both sides in open skies.
There is no gain in open skies with UAE. UAE are a tiny market for O&D, and not needed for connections from the EU. If all flights to the UAE were to stop, it would hardly be noticed in the EU.

[Edited 2015-12-20 03:04:40]
 
lancelot07
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RE: MEX And BER Will Wait For EK Until 2020

Sun Dec 20, 2015 11:11 am

Quoting tortugamon (Reply 52):
Good point. My broader point is that US travel shouldn't be regulated to have to fly through LHR/AMS/FRA in order to get to Middle East.

It isn't.
You might go nonstop, or through ZRH, MAD, FCO, VIE or a number of other airports. Much nicer cities than BER, too.
 
WearyDrover
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RE: MEX And BER Will Wait For EK Until 2020

Sun Dec 20, 2015 11:22 am

Quoting PanHAM (Reply 50):
what does a manfactured good has to do with a Service industry

In the matter of trade, whether a country earns through the sale of goods or services is not crucial. In Germany's balance of trade it matters little whether the earnings are from insurance, banking services, air fares, beer, BMWs or building and construction project management

There is absolutely no reason why the producer of a particular type of product should be protected while other producers have to compete. If Germany wants to sell 50,000 cars to the UAE we don't say but what does the UAE gain. Germany must buy an equal amount. So why should it be any different with aviation services?

The other aspect is of course that restrictions on ownership can place obstacles in the way of growth by limiting capital transfers, making investment and borrowing more expensive, and by entrenching inefficiencies.
A man may learn wisdom even from a foe - Aristophanes
 
lancelot07
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RE: MEX And BER Will Wait For EK Until 2020

Sun Dec 20, 2015 11:32 am

Quoting WearyDrover (Reply 55):
If Germany wants to sell 50,000 cars to the UAE

Germany as a state does not sell cars, german companies do.
They even sell in states with punitive taxes and tariffs on cars.
 
aviationaware
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RE: MEX And BER Will Wait For EK Until 2020

Sun Dec 20, 2015 11:33 am

Quoting seahawk (Reply 13):
It is time for an Open Skies agreement between Germany and the UAE.

No, it most certainly is not. That would be a terrible deal - all for them and nothing for us, only an idiot or witless person would strike such a deal.

Quoting seahawk (Reply 15):
Protectionism never worked.

That's a funny notion. Every time a lot of jobs went bust, it was due to an anti-protectionist measure like so called free trade agreements.
NAFTA for example was a total disaster for American jobs, and open skies between the UAE and Germany would be the same for Germany, albeit on a much smaller, industry specific scale. No thanks.
 
Rara
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RE: MEX And BER Will Wait For EK Until 2020

Sun Dec 20, 2015 11:43 am

Quoting seahawk (Reply 46):
If it means cheaper tickets, why not?

Because consumer benefit is only one half of the deal, the other is producer benefit. If EK is given total access to German airports, German consumers may perhaps fly to India for 550 Euros instead of 600 Euros, but if 50 Euros are the difference between a profitable and a non-profitable operation for LH and others, the German economy may lose as a whole.

Quoting seahawk (Reply 46):
What makes the airline industry so special, that it must be protected. If LH can not compete with the ME3 they deserve to go down. Just like any other major cooperation unable to survive in a global market. Nobody saved the German clothing industry, the German TV manufacturers and other consumer electronics, the mining industry,....

All industries are protected, not just the airline industry. You realize that there is no such thing as a global free trade market, right? Certainly, within Europe we have a common market, and between the US and the EU a free-trade agreement is in the works, but generally, states protect their industries. The EU, the United States, China, and all other major economic players, have external tarriffs and quotas that are designed to protect their domestic producers.
Samson was a biblical tough guy, but his dad Samsonite was even more of a hard case.
 
lancelot07
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RE: MEX And BER Will Wait For EK Until 2020

Sun Dec 20, 2015 11:43 am

Quoting aviationaware (Reply 57):
That's a funny notion.

I wouldn't say this. But there has to be a level playing field. Which includes labor laws, social security payments and taxes.
Just look at the amount of taxes European airlines pay in Europe. And the ME3 ? None at all !
Allowing ME3 to operate in an open skies environment in Europe would be a subsidy by the european taxpayer to travellers without any return.
 
TheSonntag
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RE: MEX And BER Will Wait For EK Until 2020

Sun Dec 20, 2015 12:27 pm

Quoting seahawk (Reply 46):
If it means cheaper tickets, why not?

I think we need less, not more, areas of bad working conditions for the workforce. A business model which is only competing on cost alone, thus on the back of the employees, does not deserve any protection.

The same applies to clothes, as well. I think it is a scandal that clothes are sold for 250 EUR in germany, and the people in China, Vietnam or somewhere else are getting less than a EUR for it.

If that is the future you want, so be it. But I certainly do not want my government to actively promote this.
 
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seahawk
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RE: MEX And BER Will Wait For EK Until 2020

Sun Dec 20, 2015 12:52 pm

Quoting TheSonntag (Reply 60):
I think we need less, not more, areas of bad working conditions for the workforce. A business model which is only competing on cost alone, thus on the back of the employees, does not deserve any protection.

The same applies to clothes, as well. I think it is a scandal that clothes are sold for 250 EUR in germany, and the people in China, Vietnam or somewhere else are getting less than a EUR for it.

If that is the future you want, so be it. But I certainly do not want my government to actively promote this.

You mean no iphones, no Primark, no VW built in South Africa, Mexico or Argentine....

I dare say that the employees at EK are doing a whole lot better than in the sweat shops working for Primark or the Chinese factory workers putting together the iphone.
 
PanHAM
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RE: MEX And BER Will Wait For EK Until 2020

Sun Dec 20, 2015 12:59 pm

Quoting tortugamon (Reply 52):
huh?

I gave an example before, US carriers can carry freight traffic between the Far east and Germany or vv whilst German carriers cannot pick up cargo in the US and deliver that freight in the Far East or Australia without going via Germany.
Another example, ownership. Germany allows 49,9% foreign ownbership, the US only 24,9%. I could Quote the jones Act which says that only ship's build in the US with a 100% US Crew can carry freight by sea from Points on the US to other Points in the US. The result is, that there is no short sea traffic unless some Islands are served. I
If there would be the Kind of world wide de-egulation made possible as some of the users here advocate, based on the de-Regulation we have in international ocean traffic, it would be a Change to the worse for consumers.,It works on Ocean because the Crews live on the ships. something whoich cannot be in air traffic.

OTH, the US and the european carriers would be unable to hire flight and cabin Crews for Far Eastern or Indian wages and have them based at their EU/US hubs. That would violate Labor laws. No Problem in the Middle East. In the short run there would be hardly any international air traffic by the US/EU legacies, they simply could not compete with them ME3

But there would not be any interlining or connecting traffic to smaller places in Europe or the US either, a System successfully developed over 6 decades would crumble away if the legacy carriers die. I don't have the time to go deeper into the prospects but a look at the master plan for DWC should give something to think about.

The UAE and Germany negotiate a new bi-lateral for quite some time now. Word has it that the UAE so far denied all offers made by Germany. Appearantly they can have more destinations but have to take cuts with the frequencies. Here we are back at the Point, what does the UAE have to offer in return. Looks like the world is not enough for them they want the universe. I hope that my Government stands Sound and serious in this matter.
Was Erlauben Erdogan!!!
 
lancelot07
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RE: MEX And BER Will Wait For EK Until 2020

Sun Dec 20, 2015 1:14 pm

Quoting seahawk (Reply 61):
You mean no iphones, no Primark, no VW built in South Africa, Mexico or Argentine....

all of which are subject to import taxes and tariffs.
 
speedbird128
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RE: MEX And BER Will Wait For EK Until 2020

Sun Dec 20, 2015 1:44 pm

Quoting PanHAM (Reply 62):
what does the UAE have to offer in return

Nothing.

Quoting pzurita1 (Thread starter):
MEX And BER Will Wait For EK Until 2020

Other way around. EK will have to wait for BER.

As many have mentioned, they can have it today, but they are greedy. I think the bilateral is more than generous, but they will continue to cry about it.
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seahawk
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RE: MEX And BER Will Wait For EK Until 2020

Sun Dec 20, 2015 5:22 pm

Protecting the airlines in such case also means hindering the competition between airports. I am certain Berlin would love to have an EK service. The sensible choice for me is to let the ME3 fly where they want but handle the slot allocation differently. Let each of them have 2 airports where their slot requests are handled normally. For all other destinations they can only serve the destination when they can use a free slot after all other request have been handled.
 
lancelot07
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RE: MEX And BER Will Wait For EK Until 2020

Sun Dec 20, 2015 6:20 pm

Quoting seahawk (Reply 65):
Protecting the airlines in such case also means hindering the competition between airports. I am certain Berlin would love to have an EK service.

Well, EK could fly to TXL, SXF and BER if they wanted to. Those 3 could compete.

Competition between airports such as BER and FRA or MUC (let alone LHR or CDG) doesn't really make any sense - there is no possible economic incentive for anybody to drive from FRA or MUC to BER to depart from there just because the airport is nice or cheap. As always in real estate, it is location, location and location - and airports are real estate businesses.
 
Rara
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RE: MEX And BER Will Wait For EK Until 2020

Sun Dec 20, 2015 6:20 pm

Quoting lancelot07 (Reply 59):
I wouldn't say this. But there has to be a level playing field. Which includes labor laws, social security payments and taxes.

There you go. Free trade agreements are fine in principle, because they force businesses to become more efficient and more competitive, which ultimately benefits the supply and demand sides alike. But businesses need a fair chance. If, say, LH could be as efficient as humanly possible, and they still couldn't match the ME3 fares because of different taxes, labour laws and so on, then it doesn't make economic sense to expose them to that competition.

Quoting seahawk (Reply 65):
I am certain Berlin would love to have an EK service.

As I wrote above, I'm from Berlin and I can do very well without it.
Samson was a biblical tough guy, but his dad Samsonite was even more of a hard case.
 
lancelot07
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RE: MEX And BER Will Wait For EK Until 2020

Sun Dec 20, 2015 6:42 pm

Quoting Rara (Reply 67):
Free trade agreements are fine in principle, because they force businesses to become more efficient and more competitive, which ultimately benefits the supply and demand sides alike

When trading goods, there is a local importer and a retailer who pays taxes (VAT and corporate tax, and tariffs where applicable), and has local staff working according to local laws, and local investments.
Not so with airline tickets.
 
SR4ever
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RE: MEX And BER Will Wait For EK Until 2020

Sun Dec 20, 2015 6:50 pm

Quoting lancelot07 (Reply 41):
LH only flies once daily from FRA and MUC

The MUC flight is to be axed within a few weeks...
 
Planesmart
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RE: MEX And BER Will Wait For EK Until 2020

Sun Dec 20, 2015 7:12 pm

Quoting tortugamon (Reply 42):
Quoting tortugamon (Reply 52):

Great responses.

I've worked in the industry for decades.

When airlines owned travel agents, and/or used influence to block competitor bookings.

When airlines entered into cartels to block new competitors, like the original Laker.

When airlines entered into cartels to control freight rates and capacity, including delaying parts and replacement engines to competitors.

When airlines owned or influenced airports, so they received preferential gates, slots, services and pricing.

When airlines used their influence with manufacturers to receive preferential deliveries and pricing.

When airlines secured delivery positions for a pittance, to block competitors and/or to re-sell at a premium to competitors.

When airlines, often through the manufacturers, influenced the availability of finance and pricing.

When airlines........................

What's special about commercial aviation? Europeans buy TV's from China because they like the price and features. Twenty years ago Europeans wanted to buy electronics from Japan, and 20 years before they had famous brands like B&O, Saba, Ferguson, HMV, Phillips, Decca, Dynatron and others actually manufacturing in Western Europe.

We live in an ever faster changing world. The Japanese were the best for electronics and price. Then it was Korea and Thailand. Now China. Next Eastern Europe and North Korea?

Surely aviation stimulates trade and travel. What has happened and is happening to land, property and business values, the number of businesses recorded as involved in exporting, and the number of airlines and aircraft movements pre and post EK's arrival at Gatwick, Manchester and Birmingham?

You raise a nation's standard of living by trade. Protection helps a favoured few.
 
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lightsaber
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RE: MEX And BER Will Wait For EK Until 2020

Sun Dec 20, 2015 7:13 pm

MEX would benefit from service, but the 778 is required.

Quoting enilria (Reply 4):

Will BER be open by 2020???

  

No.

Quoting speedbird128 (Reply 64):
Quoting PanHAM (Reply 62):
what does the UAE have to offer in return

Nothing.

Germany doesn't want access to the regional distribution center? Everyone else except Colombo is so set on protectionism only the UAE is a reasonable partner.

Lightsaber
IM messages to mods on warnings and bans will be ignored and nasty ones will result in a ban.
 
lancelot07
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RE: MEX And BER Will Wait For EK Until 2020

Sun Dec 20, 2015 7:21 pm

Quoting lightsaber (Reply 71):
Will BER be open by 2020???

  No.

A little bit more optimism PLEASE !  
 
Planesmart
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RE: MEX And BER Will Wait For EK Until 2020

Sun Dec 20, 2015 7:35 pm

Quoting Rara (Reply 67):
As I wrote above, I'm from Berlin and I can do very well without it.

Good for you. Perhaps you don't travel for business or pleasure.

Shouldn't the rest of the World who want to travel or connect through Germany have the right to choose?
 
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LAXintl
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RE: MEX And BER Will Wait For EK Until 2020

Sun Dec 20, 2015 7:42 pm

Don't worry guys. At the end of the day, protectionism will always fail.

Protectionism ultimately cost the society its allegedly trying to protected far more as it tries to ignores reality and the benefits of of market pressures.

You cant stop the rising tide of water trying to protect the inefficient in the global market forever.

So be patient, give it 10, 20 or 30 years and the inefficient will collapse and airline market place be it Europe, Asia or the US will look ever more different.
From the desert to the sea, to all of Southern California
 
tortugamon
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RE: MEX And BER Will Wait For EK Until 2020

Sun Dec 20, 2015 8:02 pm

Quoting PanHAM (Reply 62):
I gave an example before, US carriers can carry freight traffic between the Far east and Germany or vv whilst German carriers cannot pick up cargo in the US and deliver that freight in the Far East or Australia without going via Germany.

Sounds like that is an Asia thing not a US thing.

Quoting PanHAM (Reply 62):
Another example, ownership. Germany allows 49,9% foreign ownbership, the US only 24,9

Not sure why that is important. Both don't allow foreign majority ownership.

Quoting PanHAM (Reply 62):
I could Quote the jones Act

Which as early as this year has been offered for repeal. Its a bygone rule which is going the way of the dodo. Its certainly a bigger deal in the US than in Germany. I don't think inter-Germany water freight is a gigantic business.

Quoting PanHAM (Reply 62):
The UAE and Germany negotiate a new bi-lateral for quite some time now.

I hope they find a solution that works well for all Germans and not just those in 4 cities. Ich bin ein Berliner.  
Quoting Planesmart (Reply 70):
When airlines

Fantastic synapses. The trend is obvious as you have made very clear. I, for one, think that is a good thing.

tortugamon
 
Rara
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RE: MEX And BER Will Wait For EK Until 2020

Sun Dec 20, 2015 8:52 pm

Quoting Planesmart (Reply 73):
Good for you. Perhaps you don't travel for business or pleasure.

I do both, obviously.

Quoting Planesmart (Reply 73):
Shouldn't the rest of the World who want to travel or connect through Germany have the right to choose?

The World™ has plenty of ways to travel Berlin. As I wrote above:

Quoting Rara (Reply 32):
With plenty of connections to LON, PAR, AUH, IST and others, Berlin already has a one-stop connection to all of the world's major markets. EK wouldn't add much to that

If EK was allowed to fly to Berlin, I would get the opportunity of flying non-stop to Dubai. Yay. So far I haven't felt the need, and if there was enough O&D demand, I'm sure AB or someone else would put a plane on the route.
Samson was a biblical tough guy, but his dad Samsonite was even more of a hard case.
 
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seahawk
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RE: MEX And BER Will Wait For EK Until 2020

Sun Dec 20, 2015 9:09 pm

Quoting lancelot07 (Reply 66):
Well, EK could fly to TXL, SXF and BER if they wanted to. Those 3 could compete.

Competition between airports such as BER and FRA or MUC (let alone LHR or CDG) doesn't really make any sense - there is no possible economic incentive for anybody to drive from FRA or MUC to BER to depart from there just because the airport is nice or cheap. As always in real estate, it is location, location and location - and airports are real estate businesses.

There I disagree without carriers like EK many airports would not see any long haul service, as LH would just route everything through FRA or MUC.
 
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thekorean
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RE: MEX And BER Will Wait For EK Until 2020

Sun Dec 20, 2015 9:17 pm

Germans are not entitled to give UAE Open Skies deal. Live with it. They do what is best for their interest as a whole and there is no evidence uggesting thats letting ME3 roam free.
 
Rara
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RE: MEX And BER Will Wait For EK Until 2020

Sun Dec 20, 2015 9:56 pm

Quoting seahawk (Reply 77):
There I disagree without carriers like EK many airports would not see any long haul service, as LH would just route everything through FRA or MUC.

The only long-haul service that EK offers is to DXB. How's routing people through DXB better than routing them through FRA or MUC?
Samson was a biblical tough guy, but his dad Samsonite was even more of a hard case.
 
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LAXintl
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RE: MEX And BER Will Wait For EK Until 2020

Sun Dec 20, 2015 10:09 pm

Quoting Rara (Reply 79):

The only long-haul service that EK offers is to DXB. How's routing people through DXB better than routing them through FRA or MUC?

Consumer choice... That's a good thing

Not every wants to experience the airline that hubs at FRA and MUC.
From the desert to the sea, to all of Southern California
 
incitatus
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RE: MEX And BER Will Wait For EK Until 2020

Sun Dec 20, 2015 10:18 pm

Quoting LAXintl (Reply 74):
Don't worry guys. At the end of the day, protectionism will always fail.

That is way too simple to be sound. Up to the beginning of this century Britain protected BA, France protected Air France. Germany protected Lufthansa. Italy protected Alitalia. Greece protected Olympic. Under protectionism, some failed and some thrived. Without such a long period under the government favorable eye, BA would not have become the strong airline it is today.

The governments of the UAE, Qatar and Turkey know that very well and regard their flag airlines as critical parts of their economy. If protectionism always fails, why is it that those airlines are not 100% private businesses with shares floated on a stock market?

This thread is full of simple sound bites and hypocrites. Reality is not simple. Rename this thread: Protectionists against Protectionists.
I do not consume Murdoch products including the Wall Street Journal
 
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LAXintl
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RE: MEX And BER Will Wait For EK Until 2020

Sun Dec 20, 2015 11:58 pm

Quoting incitatus (Reply 81):
If protectionism always fails, why is it that those airlines are not 100% private businesses with shares floated on a stock market?

2/3 of airlines globally per ICAO have some level of government participation. Its more the norm than the exception.

Even in EU lots of airlines still have partial or full state ownership -- Finnair, Adria, LOT, Tarom, Air Baltic, EstonianAir, SAS, TAP, Air France/KLM, CSA, Croatia Airlines, Air Malta, Alitalia, etc...

Government ownership is simply another word for investor/shareholder.

[Edited 2015-12-20 16:32:40]
From the desert to the sea, to all of Southern California
 
Planesmart
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RE: MEX And BER Will Wait For EK Until 2020

Mon Dec 21, 2015 4:24 am

Quoting Rara (Reply 76):
and if there was enough O&D demand, I'm sure AB or someone else would put a plane on the route.

Using your logic, if a German airline isn't offering Dubai - Berlin, there isn't enough O&D demand. If that's true, let EK fall on their sword, when they find that you, and many others, don't want to use the service.

I believe if EK operated to Berlin, it would be exactly like Gatwick, Manchester, Birmingham and Glasgow, where not only did they prove there was a market, but their arrival stimulated new direct routes from the same airports, and new export businesses.

Power to the people, not airlines, unions and airline employees.
 
b747400erf
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RE: MEX And BER Will Wait For EK Until 2020

Mon Dec 21, 2015 4:44 am

Quoting LAXintl (Reply 74):
Don't worry guys. At the end of the day, protectionism will always fail.

Go buy 100 or more 778-9's and set up shop at DXB, see how little protectionism you will encounter.
 
PanHAM
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RE: MEX And BER Will Wait For EK Until 2020

Mon Dec 21, 2015 6:28 am

Quoting seahawk (Reply 65):
I am certain Berlin would love to have an EK service. The sensible choice for me is to let the ME3 fly where they want but handle

Berlin has bigger Problems than not having EK Service. They should get their Airport finished so that the 3letter code can be changed from SXF to BER

Quoting tortugamon (Reply 75):
hope they find a solution that works well for all Germans and not just those in 4 cities. Ich bin ein Berliner. Quoting Planesmart (Reply 70):

Four destinations in Germany cover the area. We have an excellent rail and public Transport System,, not speaking of roads. A Berliner is quicker in Hamburg to catch an EK flight than someone from Hartford Ct can reach JFK., Or Bakersfield to LAX. I could tell you dozens of similar examples in the US.

Quoting B747400ERF (Reply 84):
Go buy 100 or more 778-9's and set up shop at DXB, see how little protectionism you will encounter.

Good joke. Set up an Operation against the incumbent carrier that is owned by the Family that owns the state as well, not speaking of the licensing bodies, the Airport, the handling companies, you Name it.
Who in his right mind would invest billions in a Country which is not ruled by the law but by decret of the ruler.

EY has a lawsuit pending at the Braunschweig court agaoinst the German LBA. Courts are Independent here and it might very well be that the judges Interpret "code share" different than what it stands for in common business practise.

. .
Was Erlauben Erdogan!!!
 
aviationaware
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RE: MEX And BER Will Wait For EK Until 2020

Mon Dec 21, 2015 6:44 am

Quoting seahawk (Reply 65):
Protecting the airlines in such case also means hindering the competition between airports.

BER is publicly owned, its business case was made without an EK flight in sight - ergo it does not need one (whether or not that would actually help cut losses is irrelevant to that scope). We don't need a publicly owned airport competing with a privately owned one.

Quoting LAXintl (Reply 80):
Consumer choice... That's a good thing

I am sure the hundreds of thousands of slaves in the Arab world, including the UAE, share your optimism.
 
speedbird128
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RE: MEX And BER Will Wait For EK Until 2020

Mon Dec 21, 2015 6:53 am

Quoting tortugamon (Reply 75):
and not just those in 4 cities

They can have more than 4 cities today. it's their choice not to.

Quoting lightsaber (Reply 71):
only the UAE is a reasonable partner.

No they are not. That's the problem.
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seahawk
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RE: MEX And BER Will Wait For EK Until 2020

Mon Dec 21, 2015 8:14 am

Quoting Rara (Reply 79):
The only long-haul service that EK offers is to DXB. How's routing people through DXB better than routing them through FRA or MUC?

You have the stop at about the half tome point when travelling to SEA. You get better service and a lower price.

If EK offers no advantage, why not allow them to fly, obviously nobody would fly with them....
 
TheSonntag
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RE: MEX And BER Will Wait For EK Until 2020

Mon Dec 21, 2015 8:48 am

Quoting LAXintl (Reply 74):
At the end of the day, protectionism will always fail.

In a open-skies market, maybe. But not in the aviation business, too many regulations there. The world-wide open-skies market will never happen.
 
PanHAM
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RE: MEX And BER Will Wait For EK Until 2020

Mon Dec 21, 2015 8:53 am

It is Happening already in main deck cargo operations. Exception as usual are the USA and russia whoch restrict foreign carriers.
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SCQ83
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RE: MEX And BER Will Wait For EK Until 2020

Mon Dec 21, 2015 9:09 am

I guess the "Berlin 2020" is just a pressure campaign.

It is like telling Berlin business and tourism community and locals that they are losing opportunities (more tourism, better prices) by not having EK there.

The airport is a non-issue. If they were granted rights tomorrow, no doubt EK would start flights to TXL overnight.

Quoting CARST (Reply 22):
But all these legacy airlines in Europe and Asia come from economical important countries and thus there is a huge O&D demand between most of them. Even the city state Singapore is such an important economic Center in SE Asia, that SQ was never just another ME3 airline based solely on connecting traffic. Of course all these legacies tried to grow by connecting more and more pax through there hubs. AF is taking pax away from LH, LH from BA, BA from AF, etc, but their business model was never made of transporting connecting pax for the majority of their seats. Huge difference.

That is a big bias you have there. UAE's GDP (considering the the overwhelming majority of GDP in the UAE is produced 1-hour from DXB) is larger than Singapore's.

Dubai is used by many European companies as a base to serve not only the Middle East but also South Asia and Africa. Consequently many European expats live there; I don't think Singapore has remotely the same numbers. Singapore as an international center for Asia has to compete with other cities, notably Hong Kong which works much better for such purposes (next to China). Dubai is undoubtedly the "London" of the region... just look at the dozens of daily flights that connect DXB (based on local traffic) with Saudi Arabia, Kuwait, India, Pakistan, etc.

European tourism to the UAE VS Singapore... just look at the number of charter flights to Europe to DXB/DWC. No comparison.

Emirates has also many more direct interests in Europe (investments), like Qatar. Also given the distance and "surroundings" locals travel more to Europe.

To say that Singapore as a country has more links to Europe than the UAE is simply not true.
 
tortugamon
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RE: MEX And BER Will Wait For EK Until 2020

Mon Dec 21, 2015 1:40 pm

Quoting Rara (Reply 79):
The only long-haul service that EK offers is to DXB. How's routing people through DXB better than routing them through FRA or MUC?

There are dozens of different destinations via DXB than via FRA/MUC.

Quoting PanHAM (Reply 85):
Four destinations in Germany cover the area.

Yet they miss the second largest city in the EU.

Quoting PanHAM (Reply 85):
A Berliner is quicker in Hamburg to catch an EK flight than someone from Hartford Ct can reach JFK., Or Bakersfield to LAX. I could tell you dozens of similar examples in the US.

So far you have named two cities that a tenth of the size of Berlin. Certainly flying to a new destination in Europe is easier to rationalize than a new North American route, and cheaper. In addition the ME3 provide far greater benefit to Europeans than Americans.

Quoting speedbird128 (Reply 87):
They can have more than 4 cities today. it's their choice not to.

Not much of a choice.

Quoting TheSonntag (Reply 89):
In a open-skies market, maybe. But not in the aviation business, too many regulations there. The world-wide open-skies market will never happen.

The trend has been toward openness and free / open skies. I applaud that and don't think it is over. As the world gets richer and the cost of the technology gets cheaper allowing for busier skies the trend will only increase.

tortugamon
 
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LTU932
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RE: MEX And BER Will Wait For EK Until 2020

Mon Dec 21, 2015 1:51 pm

The big question is, who will get EK service first, MEX, or BER (if it opens before 2020)?   
Sometimes the only thing more dangerous than a question is an answer. - Ferengi Rule of Acquisition 208
 
speedbird128
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RE: MEX And BER Will Wait For EK Until 2020

Mon Dec 21, 2015 1:56 pm

Quoting tortugamon (Reply 92):
Not much of a choice.

They are hardly maxed out at their current 4 yet are squealing for more access....

They have plenty access - 4 unlimited destinations. They choose to be hard done by.

Quoting tortugamon (Reply 92):
Yet they miss the second largest city in the EU.

If it was such a big deal to EK, they'd be reprioritising their choices...

[Edited 2015-12-21 05:58:49]
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PanHAM
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RE: MEX And BER Will Wait For EK Until 2020

Mon Dec 21, 2015 2:23 pm

Quoting tortugamon (Reply 92):
Yet they miss the second largest city in the EU.

make a note, EK can switch one of the cities to serve BErlin instead. It is their free choice. They can also accept a changed bi-lateral which would give them more cities in lieu of frequencies.

I really can't stand this moaning of EK Groupies. Berliners can take an ICE Train to HAM, or they are in 4 hours by Train in Frankfurt, so what is the prpblem? We have cities like Hannover, Leipzig, Dresden which will never have enough traffic for a direct flight to DXB and we have cities like Mannheim that don't even have an airport
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seahawk
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RE: MEX And BER Will Wait For EK Until 2020

Mon Dec 21, 2015 2:29 pm

Quoting PanHAM (Reply 95):
We have cities like Hannover, Leipzig, Dresden which will never have enough traffic for a direct flight to DXB and we have cities like Mannheim that don't even have an airport

How will we find out, when EK is not allowed to serve more than 4 destinations.

I can see EK serve, FRA, MUC, DUS, HAM, STR, BER(TXL) and CGN for sure. With LEJ, DRS, NUE or even BRE good enough for 4/7 with one of their planned regio fleet planes.
 
speedbird128
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RE: MEX And BER Will Wait For EK Until 2020

Mon Dec 21, 2015 2:31 pm

Quoting seahawk (Reply 96):
when EK is not allowed to serve more than 4 destinations

But they can. Just not with unlimited frequencies like they chose with their current 4...

As for STR - ask QR how well that went...
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SCQ83
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RE: MEX And BER Will Wait For EK Until 2020

Mon Dec 21, 2015 2:32 pm

Quoting seahawk (Reply 96):
I can see EK serve, FRA, MUC, DUS, HAM, STR, BER(TXL) and CGN for sure. With LEJ, DRS, NUE or even BRE good enough for 4/7 with one of their planned regio fleet planes.

CGN is down the road from DUS. Other than TK is there any foreign legacy that serves both CGN and DUS?

I would also have my doubts about STR, not far from FRA. Qatar started STR and cancelled it not long after.
 
speedbird128
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RE: MEX And BER Will Wait For EK Until 2020

Mon Dec 21, 2015 2:35 pm

Quoting SCQ83 (Reply 98):
Qatar started STR and cancelled it not long after.

They flew it with an A319 direct, and then later on with a tag-on to the ZRH A330 flight and even that didn't work and so it went to the trashcan.

Now there is AB flying STR-AUH on an A320. Not sure how long that will last...
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