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TheFlyingDisk
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RE: New Malaysian Airline Sharia-Style

Mon Dec 21, 2015 3:27 pm

Quoting 777way (Reply 99):
The owners have Hindu sounding South Indian names, how come? are they converts?

I think they are Malaysian Indians and not Indian Muslims.
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777way
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RE: New Malaysian Airline Sharia-Style

Mon Dec 21, 2015 3:33 pm

Ok, but the names Ravi and Govindan are Hindu, maybe their ancestors are converts, changing names is not necessary in the religion. If its Hindu's running this airline thats amazing, they even used Arabic fontts for title, is that normal is Malaysia, Arabic script usage?
 
georgiaame
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RE: New Malaysian Airline Sharia-Style

Mon Dec 21, 2015 3:35 pm

Prayers before takeoff say one thing. Prayers before LANDING might be something else entirely. As my grandmother would have said, "Ich geht nisht".
"Trust, but verify!" An old Russian proverb, quoted often by a modern American hero
 
777way
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RE: New Malaysian Airline Sharia-Style

Mon Dec 21, 2015 3:42 pm

it seems from the owners names, THIS AIRLINE HAS BEEN SET UP BY HINDU'S! slap in the face of most posters here.
 
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mariner
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RE: New Malaysian Airline Sharia-Style

Mon Dec 21, 2015 6:02 pm

Quoting 777Jet (Reply 89):
know I'm not the target market.

Are you?

No, of course not.

I don't live in Malaysia, and while I first went to Langkawi in 1980, I've only been back a couple of times because it's a tiny island and there isn't much to do. All it really has is one very good beach and a few good hotels, but the charm of that beach has been spoiled by over-development - for my taste - and there are better beaches and better hotels in other parts of Malaysia.

I just don't understand why this rinky-dink airline is provoking such an attack, mostly by people who will never fly it anyway.

It's doing much the same as several airlines, and nothing more than you may encounter every day in Malaysia - and not in a bad way, I've never felt uncomfortable or threatened there. It's a bit buttoned-up, but not a lot more than Singapore, and I've always found the people friendly and helpful. I've walked the streets of KL at 3 in the morning and felt completely safe - there are even a couple of gay bars in KL. If you want to talk about repression, try Brunei, which has just banned the public celebration of Christmas.

I think this airline has a shaky business model, but it is catering to the local Malaysian market and I wish it well. All the jumping up and down about it here seems silly and smacks of western elitism.

mariner

[Edited 2015-12-21 10:10:23]
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turjo101
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RE: New Malaysian Airline Sharia-Style

Mon Dec 21, 2015 6:05 pm

2 threads started about Sharia related matters on airliners by the same poster. Is this not a private airline?!? If you have flown with PIA, SV, BG, IR or a dozen other airlines from predominantly Muslim countries; then you'd have seen similar practices.

Why was the sharia compliance part the highlight of this thread?!? Some people just cant wait to start religion bashing - you could have waited a few days before starting the 2nd thread. Go ahead I'll give you some ideas for a 3rd. We at ANet like speculations - so perhaps you can start something discussing how a potential new airline startup from Daesh held territory might look like.

KSA Sharia Police Jurisdiction "Western" Flights? (by nitepilot79 Dec 20 2015 in Civil Aviation)
 
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caoimhin
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RE: New Malaysian Airline Sharia-Style

Mon Dec 21, 2015 6:32 pm

Quoting trex8 (Reply 3):
Are they flying Airbuses??   

Bravo for this.   
 
777way
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RE: New Malaysian Airline Sharia-Style

Mon Dec 21, 2015 6:54 pm

Quoting Turjo101 (Reply 105):

I pointed out the Iran Air one twice in this thread, someone else mentioned a better example Royal Brunei, both airlines are non issues here and have existed in Shariah compliant form since decades, IR is surprisingly more conservative than Saudia, so why is this new one worth special mention?

He missed out Pakistan based Shaheen Air, who make their crew wear Arab style hijab from/to work.
 
777way
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RE: New Malaysian Airline Sharia-Style

Mon Dec 21, 2015 7:19 pm

Quoting B747400ERF (Reply 95):

Phew! must be a relief for you all, but tables will turn God works in funny ways I have noticed.

Quoting mika (Reply 91):
This begs the inevitable question; So why are we (western, liberal societies) supposed to tolerate Islamic expressions within our societies if these countries won't tolerate us?

You wouldnt be what you are if you would start supressing such expressions, dumb question by the way.

Quoting AirbusA6 (Reply 85):
with Westerners, Chinese, Hindus and moderate Muslims not their market.

Aww what a loss, with the right price all of those you mention will be flying with them, including aetheist Malays, yes those types exist in Malaysia as well, perhaps more openly then in some other muslim countries. BTW the airline owners seem to be Hindus.

Quoting Heavierthanair (Reply 86):
One other thing, if it were not for ethnic Chinese I believe Malaysia would not even be on the map

Whats your issue with Malaysia? its the same country with clubs and bars, no dress code, and a Christain Indian running the leading LCC airline in Asia with sexist uniforms and booze service to boast.

Quoting L1011Lover (Reply 84):

Most believe in God, its a muslim country's airline, and unbelievers getting distressed is of no concern, too bad believing Christian and Jewish airlines dont pray out loud as well.

Quoting [email protected] (Reply 83):

What a remarkably odd and inflammatory thread. Don't like it? Don't fly it. Who cares?

Thats the purpose, one would think mods would remove such stupid topics.

Quoting BestWestern (Reply 61):
Alaskan have written prayers onboard.

Unfortunately they have stopped doing so.

Quoting aviationaware (Reply 60):
As long as they don't want to fly to civilized countries,

The civilised countries wil do anything to get business, look at that survey posted by Mhm01 showing Pakistan as more livberal in attitude than Malaysia, must have got some nice deals from them or got more assitance in their dirty games being played in the region, or perhaps pew's own pockets got lined.

Quoting AngMoh (Reply 59):

I wonder if people realize that McDonalds, KFC, Burger King, Pizza Hut and whatever else are all Halal in South East Asia (including Singapore). Being Halal is good for business because Muslim customers feel ok eating it while non-Muslims don't care and eat it anyway. It's like being "organic" in Europe or the US.

Yes Burkini is also gaining some popularity in unfit western women shy of exposing their bodies, and even those not wanting to get sunburn, celebrity cook Nigella Lawson wore it to Bondi beach in Sydney and was asked by others where they can buy one, she wore it with head cover which protects the hair from elements, besides meeting sharia requirements.

Quoting mham001 (Reply 17):
33% of Malaysians believe suicide bombings against civilians can be justified in defending Islam from its enemies, (compared to 7% in Pakistan). 86% of Muslim Malaysians support the implementation of Sharia law, 44% of them believe Sharia law should extend to all Malaysians and 62% of them believe in the death penalty for converting away from Islam. If this is the definition of 'liberal' Muslim society, we have real problems.

If this nonsense is correct, then PAS would have won the election easily with a large majority. But then BN is still running the country so this data is wrong.


Exactly! just the fact that the survey has been twisted to show generally fairly conservative Pakistan in a favourable light over liberal, advanced and highly educated Malaysia, which is being passed of as some orthodox village-esque place says it all, obviously biased for someones agenda against the place, the results should have been 50-70 percent in Pakistan, where did they poll? some glitzy mall frequented by the liberals? thats the only way to get this extremely low count.

[Edited 2015-12-21 11:30:14]
 
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777Jet
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RE: New Malaysian Airline Sharia-Style

Mon Dec 21, 2015 7:56 pm

Quoting mariner (Reply 104):
I just don't understand why this rinky-dink airline is provoking such an attack, mostly by people who will never fly it anyway.

Maybe because this is an aviation forum, and not too long ago Islamic extremists claimed to have been responsible for blowing up a Russian A321, so a topic about a new Sharia aka Islamic-style airline just kind of stood out and got a bit of extra attention?

At least this airline might be less likely to be targeted by extremists so it gets one tick in the safety column that most other airlines don't get  
Quoting mariner (Reply 104):
If you want to talk about repression, try Brunei, which has just banned the public celebration of Christmas.

Also on my blacklist.
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mariner
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RE: New Malaysian Airline Sharia-Style

Mon Dec 21, 2015 9:21 pm

Quoting 777Jet (Reply 109):
Maybe because this is an aviation forum, and not too long ago Islamic extremists claimed to have been responsible for blowing up a Russian A321, so a topic about a new Sharia aka Islamic-style airline just kind of stood out and got a bit of extra attention?

It looked to me like yet another round of Muslim bashing by some, but if people can't work out the difference been a relatively stable (majority) Muslim country and Islamist terrorists, there's a problem.

mariner
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777Jet
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RE: New Malaysian Airline Sharia-Style

Mon Dec 21, 2015 9:26 pm

Quoting mariner (Reply 110):
if people can't work out the difference been a relatively stable (majority) Muslim country and Islamist terrorists, there's a problem.

There sure is, among other problems.
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RE: New Malaysian Airline Sharia-Style

Mon Dec 21, 2015 9:41 pm

I am not flying them so I don't care what they do. If everyone began doing weird things on flights in North America, then Id be concerned. Being from Mexico where we have our share of weirdness, I would find amusing to see a Sharia flight, and seeing people praise Allah left and right… but everyone is entitled to believe what they want, and you to vote with our $$$$ if you want to fly in that conditions.

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aviationaware
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RE: New Malaysian Airline Sharia-Style

Mon Dec 21, 2015 9:41 pm

Quoting 777way (Reply 108):
The civilised countries wil do anything to get business,

A sad truth.
 
hohd
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RE: New Malaysian Airline Sharia-Style

Mon Dec 21, 2015 9:53 pm

Halal food, hijab for muslim woman, no alcohol and prayer sounds innocent enough especially on domestic flights (many countries ban alcohol on domestic flights anyway).

However the fact that this is happening in Malaysia, which was supposed to be a moderate Muslim state, is the cause of the concern.

Malaysian is becoming more conservative and intolerant. There are numerous disputes between Muslim and non-Muslim and the non-Muslim gets the short end of the stick.
 
L1011Lover
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RE: New Malaysian Airline Sharia-Style

Mon Dec 21, 2015 10:08 pm

Quoting 777way (Reply 108):
Most believe in God, its a muslim country's airline, and unbelievers getting distressed is of no concern, too bad believing Christian and Jewish airlines dont pray out loud as well.

I'm glad they don't... and I'm glad they arrived in modern society and civilization a long time ago...

And believing in god or not has nothing to do with saying prayers out loud or play them over the PA system - at least not in the Western world! I'm glad it isn't or should I say Thank God?! I can be a believer without shoving it into anybody elses face! Most western societies - christian or jewish - have realized that a while ago!

I don't have a general problem with people who pray... they can pray in church, they can pray at a synagogue or a mosque... they can pray at home or even on the street...

But to me there are certain places and areas where in my opinion you shouldn't do it... a plane, a moving train, public places of a ship... any mode of transportation or any other place from which you can't easily leave if you want to in order not to be bothered by some other people's beliefs...

And honestly I really don't understand why some people are so outrgaded by my comments or even call them stupidity... I have my own personal view on religion. I don't condemn it even though I believe it's responsible for too many of our worldwide problems and always has been... I do believe in something, but certainly not the bible, the thora or the koran... god lies within us... that's my belief... but that would go way too far now...

What I'm trying to say is I'm not making a fuss, I don't complain to the airlines in question, I don't request them to stop it... all I'm saying is, that overly religious habits are not for me and because it is not for me I happily relinquish their services and will NEVER EVER use it!

That's my right and my personal opinion! I wouldn't feel comfortable if an airline or its pilots feels the need to ask for Allah's or almighty God's help in operating the airplane...

Thank You for accepting that!

[Edited 2015-12-21 14:11:08]
 
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777Jet
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RE: New Malaysian Airline Sharia-Style

Mon Dec 21, 2015 10:51 pm

Quoting L1011Lover (Reply 115):
too bad believing Christian and Jewish airlines dont pray out loud as well.

I'm glad they don't... and I'm glad they arrived in modern society and civilization a long time ago...

  

Quoting L1011Lover (Reply 115):
I wouldn't feel comfortable if an airline or its pilots feels the need to ask for Allah's or almighty God's help in operating the airplane...

  

Look what happened to EgyptAir Flight 990 after relief pilot Gameel Al-Batouti continually repeated "Tawkalt ala Allah" - "I rely on God"...
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747megatop
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RE: New Malaysian Airline Sharia-Style

Mon Dec 21, 2015 10:59 pm

Quoting 777way (Reply 7):
liberal muslim

Well, well, well; these 2 words in the same sentence is like saying "deafening silence". I wonder how liberal this airline would be if a non muslim crew or passenger were to board this airline and doesn't want to subscribe to any of the sharia practices.
 
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777Jet
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RE: New Malaysian Airline Sharia-Style

Mon Dec 21, 2015 11:02 pm

Quoting 747megatop (Reply 117):
I wonder how liberal this airline would be if a non muslim crew or passenger were to board this airline and doesn't want to subscribe to any of the sharia practices.

Make sure to read the fine print and conditions of carriage before booking  
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mariner
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RE: New Malaysian Airline Sharia-Style

Mon Dec 21, 2015 11:20 pm

Quoting 747megatop (Reply 117):
. I wonder how liberal this airline would be if a non muslim crew or passenger were to board this airline and doesn't want to subscribe to any of the sharia practices.

Doesn't want to subscribe to what "Sharia practices"?

Anyone who has anything to do with Malaysia has a fair idea what the "Sharia practices" are I don't have a problem eating halal snacks. Since the prayer is in a language I don't speak well, they could be saying pretty much anything.

The same would be true for any Indonesian airline that was Sharia compliant.

As Thomas Jefferson said, it neither steals my wallet nor breaks my leg.

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TheFlyingDisk
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RE: New Malaysian Airline Sharia-Style

Mon Dec 21, 2015 11:45 pm

Quoting hohd (Reply 114):
However the fact that this is happening in Malaysia, which was supposed to be a moderate Muslim state, is the cause of the concern.

Just because one company decided to pursue a niche & operates on a Sharia-compliant basis it turns the entire country to be less moderate & more intolerant? What poppycock!

Besides, you do know that Malaysia's one of the major finance centres for Sharia-complaint Islamic banking - and has been for years now? As someone who actually LIVES here I don't see any signs of rooting intolerance. Sure there are pockets of tensions, but it's being controlled.

Quoting hohd (Reply 114):
Malaysian is becoming more conservative and intolerant. There are numerous disputes between Muslim and non-Muslim and the non-Muslim gets the short end of the stick.

Unfortunately this is nothing to do with religion and more to do with political games played by both the current ruling side & the opposition to gain support - kind of like what Trump's doing in America. But it's way, way out of topic so if you like to discuss this perhaps open a thread on the Non-Av forum.

Quoting 747megatop (Reply 117):
Well, well, well; these 2 words in the same sentence is like saying "deafening silence". I wonder how liberal this airline would be if a non muslim crew or passenger were to board this airline and doesn't want to subscribe to any of the sharia practices.

If you even bother to read the trip report, you'll see that the Sharia-compliance stop at the crews. Women flying as passengers don't have to wear a hijab to board or be forced to be segregated from the men. And from what I've been told, non-Muslim female crew aren't subject to the hijab but only modest dressing (pants & loose fitting clothes).

Here is what everyone, especially who wants to discuss this airline should take into consideration before typing their opinions - the Sharia-compliant angle this company is touting only applies to the way they operate & doesn't at all apply to the passenger.
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9w748capt
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RE: New Malaysian Airline Sharia-Style

Tue Dec 22, 2015 12:18 am

That is indeed crazy if the airline's owners are Hindus! Wow - my people will do anything for a quick buck though (really, who doesn't?), so I'm not surprised.

The funny thing is - no one would dare start a "Hindu airline" in India - lest they be branded as religious zealots.
 
zippy
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RE: New Malaysian Airline Sharia-Style

Tue Dec 22, 2015 1:01 am

Quoting TheFlyingDisk (Reply 75):
Quoting zippy (Reply 68):

How is Article 153 relevant to the discussion? It doesn't prove the fact of hostility against non-Muslims.

It's codified racism. How is that not hostility? It puts a "nice" face on it by granting special privileges, but the flip side is that you are discriminating against the non-Bumiputra. The ugly part is, of course, the prohibition of any discourse surrounding Article 153. That's absolutely hostile.
 
zippy
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RE: New Malaysian Airline Sharia-Style

Tue Dec 22, 2015 1:06 am

Quoting TheFlyingDisk (Reply 120):
Besides, you do know that Malaysia's one of the major finance centres for Sharia-complaint Islamic banking - and has been for years now? As someone who actually LIVES here I don't see any signs of rooting intolerance. Sure there are pockets of tensions, but it's being controlled.

Sure, it's being controlled... by imprisoning the opposition. If you're not seeing signs of intolerance and frustration, you're likely not looking too hard. Take a look at the aftermath of the 2013 election.
 
jfkgig
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RE: New Malaysian Airline Sharia-Style

Tue Dec 22, 2015 1:11 am

Quoting TheFlyingDisk (Reply 98):

Quoting jfkgig (Reply 96):
This is true -- Malaysia is one of the most liberal muslim states -- but still also true that non-Muslims such as Chinese and Hindu Indians are second class citizens there whose rights are inferior to the "native" Bumi Malay majority. Non-Bumi are limited in their opportunities for education, as well as in the civil service, and government contracting.

This is going out of topic but just to clarify on misconceptions - actually while there are provision for rights of indigenous people (say what you will, but the Malays are indigenous of the lands since the whole area is called the Malay archipelago after all), non-Malays aren't really truly 2nd class citizens the way apartheid South Africa is.

I actually strongly disagree that Malays should have any special rights over Chinese or Indians in Malaysia. Anybody born in Malaysia is a native Malaysian, and should be equally protected by the law. Whether any citizen's ancestors were born in what is now Malaysia, or arrived as slaves, coolies, merchants, etc., should have no bearing on their entitlement to the same educational or other opportunities. I don't think that the average Malay Malaysian would agree with the proposition that a Turkish born German citizen, or the children of Turkish born Germans, should have fewer rights than a German citizen whose ancestors have lived in Germany for generations, and I don't understand why the equation changes in Malaysia for the Bumi. I will not equate the situation of Chinese or Indian Malaysians to black South Africans under Apartheid, but calling these people second class citizens is not inaccurate. I happen to be very fond of the place, but one can say that while all Malaysians are theoretically equal, some or considered to be more equal than others. The very concept that Chinese non-Muslims could have an equal say in the political process is what lead to the expulsion of Singapore from Malaysia.
 
jfkgig
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RE: New Malaysian Airline Sharia-Style

Tue Dec 22, 2015 1:29 am

Quoting B747400ERF (Reply 97):
Quoting jfkgig (Reply 96):

This is true -- Malaysia is one of the most liberal muslim states -- but still also true that non-Muslims such as Chinese and Hindu Indians are second class citizens there whose rights are inferior to the "native" Bumi Malay majority. Non-Bumi are limited in their opportunities for education, as well as in the civil service, and government contracting. In most of the Country, particularly in the South and in Chinese majority Penang, the influence of Islam is often mild and generally not overbearing, but there are religious States which enforce Sharia and exist as overtly religious Islamic States, inside the larger and mostly secular Nation.

I thought Indonesia was the most "liberal" Islamic country? And the original post was explaining the troubling growing influence of Wahhabi in these countries that of course the person you quoted does not know about and chooses to purposely ignore.

To be sure, Indonesia is another place which is technically a secular majority Muslim population, and is also relatively liberal, with a strong tradition of mixing Javanese culture as a moderating force against Arabian/Wahabi style Orthodox Islam. But I would not Indonesia as liberal a society as Malaysia, and it has historically been a far worse place to be for Chinese non-Muslims, and also for Christians. Indonesian law recognizes several other religions, but until recently failed to recognize the legal rights of those following Confucian values, and Chinese have not had their legal rights recognized and have experienced periodic mass murder and mass rapes -- as recently as 1998. Many Chinese Indonesians have been unable to get passports or citizenship documents, and have existed in a sort of legal limbo unrecognized by the Indonesian State, and Chinese language and medicine was outlawed. Christians too have often been victims of mass violence, and church burnings are still regular occurrences, though mostly by Muslim militias and not supported by the Central government. While this has gotten far better in the post-Suharto period, and Indonesia is the home of some of the most progressive Muslim thinkers in the world -- such as former President Gus Dur -- I think it rules out calling Indonesia the most liberal majority muslim country.
 
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TheFlyingDisk
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RE: New Malaysian Airline Sharia-Style

Tue Dec 22, 2015 2:04 am

Quoting zippy (Reply 122):
It's codified racism. How is that not hostility? It puts a "nice" face on it by granting special privileges, but the flip side is that you are discriminating against the non-Bumiputra. The ugly part is, of course, the prohibition of any discourse surrounding Article 153. That's absolutely hostile.

Here's the thing - Article 153 was born out of a compromise agreed upon by Chinese, Indian & Malay leaders during the quest for Malaysian independence. In exchange for granting Chinese & Indians citizenship rights, Malay & indigenous rights are put to law.

Compared to the treatment of Aborigines by the Australians & the Native Americans by you lot, Article 153 is tame. It doesn't preclude Chinese & Indians from going about their business and it shows in terms of demographic data such as median household income & house ownership, among others. I mean, the head of the largest LCC in Asia, a Malaysian company, is Indian and the richest person in Malaysia is a Chinese man, which sort of nullifies the argument about discrimination against non-Bumis.

Quoting zippy (Reply 123):
Sure, it's being controlled... by imprisoning the opposition. If you're not seeing signs of intolerance and frustration, you're likely not looking too hard. Take a look at the aftermath of the 2013 election.

Only one opposition leader is in prison for legal issues that is unrelated to his political inclination, whereas the rest are still free to sling mud & incite hatred as they please. And just so you know, a lot of the racial tensions that occurred are political games instigated by political parties to curry favour with their supporters, and both sides are equally guilty.

But you don't see that in Western media, do you?

Quoting jfkgig (Reply 124):
I actually strongly disagree that Malays should have any special rights over Chinese or Indians in Malaysia. Anybody born in Malaysia is a native Malaysian, and should be equally protected by the law

The law applies equally to the Chinese & Indians as they are to the Malays and indigenous people.

Quoting jfkgig (Reply 124):
I don't think that the average Malay Malaysian would agree with the proposition that a Turkish born German citizen, or the children of Turkish born Germans, should have fewer rights than a German citizen whose ancestors have lived in Germany for generations, and I don't understand why the equation changes in Malaysia for the Bumi.

Because of history. As stated Article 153 is a quid pro quo in exchange for the Chinese & Indians being granted citizenship. It was agreed upon by the political leaders from the three races & the Brits being the colonial power. And it certainly doesn't infringe on the rights of non-Malays to the extent of absolute discrimination the way apartheid is. They're not forced to assimilate into Malay society the way other countries in the region do so, they're free to practice their religion & preserve their cultures.

If anyone thinks life is easy as a Malay in Malaysia, it's not. And Malays are discriminated just as much.

This has gone way off topic to be honest.

[Edited 2015-12-21 18:12:07]
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jfkgig
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RE: New Malaysian Airline Sharia-Style

Tue Dec 22, 2015 2:17 am

Quoting TheFlyingDisk (Reply 126):
Because of history. As stated Article 153 is a quid pro quo in exchange for the Chinese & Indians being granted citizenship. It was agreed upon by the political leaders from the three races & the Brits being the colonial power. And it certainly doesn't infringe on the rights of non-Malays to the extent of absolute discrimination the way apartheid is. They're not forced to assimilate into Malay society the way other countries in the region do so, they're free to practice their religion & preserve their cultures.

So its ok for Malaysia to discriminate against Chinese and Indians, limiting them from entering higher education, because some politicians made a deal with a Colonial power 60 years ago? That argument pre-assumes that Malaya would have been justified in denying Chinese and Indians citizenship by virtue of their being Chinese and Indian (i.e., their race) in the first place. It seems rather week to me to justify race based oppression of citizens in 2015 based upon an agreement between elites and a Colonial occupier in 1957.

The British also entered into the Treaty of Vereeniging which ended the Boer War and provided for independence of Transvaal and Orange Free State to govern their territories as they wished -- and they wished apartheid. Do you think that is any less a basis on which to justify apartheid, than your justification of discrimination against non-Bumi Malaysians today? Seems like a pretty similar argument to me.

I'm also wondering if you think it would be right for the "indigenous" people of Europe to discriminate against Muslim immigrants by virtue of their being indigenous, and if not, why you think that it is any more moral or ethically defensible for Bumi Malays to discriminate against supposedly non-idigenous Chinese or Indians?

[Edited 2015-12-21 18:19:46]
 
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TheFlyingDisk
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RE: New Malaysian Airline Sharia-Style

Tue Dec 22, 2015 2:55 am

Quoting jfkgig (Reply 127):
So its ok for Malaysia to discriminate against Chinese and Indians, limiting them from entering higher education, because some politicians made a deal with a Colonial power 60 years ago?

Chinese & Indians aren't limited from pursuing higher education whether via Malaysian public universities or private institutions. Do get your facts straight.

Quoting jfkgig (Reply 127):
That argument pre-assumes that Malaya would have been justified in denying Chinese and Indians citizenship by virtue of their being Chinese and Indian (i.e., their race) in the first place.

They're not denied citizenship just because they're Chinese/Indian. At that point in time, they are, for lack of a better word, foreginers and as such in order to naturalize them, they do need to adhere to certain criteria of which acceptance of indigenous rights is one of them. It's no different than the naturalization processes of many countries.

But you're clearly glossing over the fact that the indigenous rights for the most part doesn't infringe on their rights. As you rightly pointed out, it's far harder to be an Indonesian Chinese during the Sukarno/Suharto era compared to a Malaysian Chinese.
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FSDan
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RE: New Malaysian Airline Sharia-Style

Tue Dec 22, 2015 2:59 am

This has certainly been an interesting thread to read through! As others have said, the market will dictate whether or not this airline will be successful. I can't imagine a similar operation getting off the ground in the U.S... If a theoretical Christian start-up airline tried to do something like have pre-takeoff prayers broadcast over the PA system I'm sure someone would sue them, regardless of whether or not there were enough target customers to ensure the airline's profitability. Is that likely to happen with Rayani Air, or is non-religious discomfort with religion mostly a Western thing?

Quoting L1011Lover (Reply 115):
too bad believing Christian and Jewish airlines dont pray out loud as well.

I'm glad they don't... and I'm glad they arrived in modern society and civilization a long time ago...

For as long as human reasoning has existed, there have been intelligent people on both sides of the God/no God debate. That's not likely to change anytime in the near future. People holding either opinion need to realize that and treat the other side with respect. At times I've witnessed both sides failing to do that, which is unfortunate.

Quoting L1011Lover (Reply 115):
I wouldn't feel comfortable if an airline or its pilots feels the need to ask for Allah's or almighty God's help in operating the airplane...

Do you think that is what they are asking? That they aren't qualified to fly the aircraft and therefore need God's help to fill in their knowledge/skill gap? I'd say that they are more likely recognizing that as human beings there are many factors that are completely out of their control, and giving those things over to God. I'd rather have a pilot who understands that than one who thinks that they are themselves a god.

Quoting L1011Lover (Reply 115):
I have my own personal view on religion. I don't condemn it even though I believe it's responsible for too many of our worldwide problems and always has been...

Humans are responsible for our worldwide problems. Religion is one difference that allows humans to split the world into "us" and "them" and thereby marginalize those who are not on our own side. If not religion it would be race, language, socioeconomic status, you name it. Division is a human thing.

Quoting winterlight (Reply 12):
I'm very tempted to book a flight and eat some bacon sandwiches.

Being disrespectful of those who believe differently from you doesn't help fix the problem. I personally enjoy eating pork (and drinking alcohol), but if by abstaining from pork and alcohol temporarily I can show respect to my Muslim brothers and sisters, why not do that? There are plenty of other tasty foods and drinks in the world!
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AngMoh
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RE: New Malaysian Airline Sharia-Style

Tue Dec 22, 2015 3:00 am

Quoting jfkgig (Reply 127):
So its ok for Malaysia to discriminate against Chinese and Indians, limiting them from entering higher education, because some politicians made a deal with a Colonial power 60 years ago? That argument pre-assumes that Malaya would have been justified in denying Chinese and Indians citizenship by virtue of their being Chinese and Indian (i.e., their race) in the first place. It seems rather week to me to justify race based oppression of citizens in 2015 based upon an agreement between elites and a Colonial occupier in 1957.

Technically, the preferential treatment for Bumiputras is similar to preferential treatment given to minorities to enter US Universities where a black student gets preference over a white or Asian students even though his entry scores are lower, the proposed preferential treatment for women to enter senior management positions in large companies and other "affirmative action" policies in the west.

I personally belief the Bumi policy harms the country but keeps the government in power. But on the other hand it is not even close to apartheid. The biggest problem with the Bumi policy is that it is used to justify corruption and cronyism while the poor Malays hardly benefit.

Going back to topic: the Sharia compliant airline is trying to address a niche (which I think is not small) in a country that is not perfect but far from being a extremist heaven. For example, Malaysia is much more aggressive in preventing its citizens from travelling to Syria and Iraq than most western countries. Quite a number are stopped and arrested in KL airport when they try to leave.
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jfkgig
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RE: New Malaysian Airline Sharia-Style

Tue Dec 22, 2015 3:19 am

Quoting TheFlyingDisk (Reply 128):
Quoting jfkgig (Reply 127):
So its ok for Malaysia to discriminate against Chinese and Indians, limiting them from entering higher education, because some politicians made a deal with a Colonial power 60 years ago?

Chinese & Indians aren't limited from pursuing higher education whether via Malaysian public universities or private institutions. Do get your facts straight.

70% of seats at Universities in Malaysia -- public and private -- are reserved for Bumis, and restricted to Chinese. That is a fact. 1 Million Chinese have emigrated from Malaysia as a result -- and many now live in California, USA where having left to pursue educational equity for their children, they ironically are again restricted from University by "affirmative action" policies which have determined that the best universities are now "too Asian."
 
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TheFlyingDisk
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RE: New Malaysian Airline Sharia-Style

Tue Dec 22, 2015 3:27 am

Quoting jfkgig (Reply 131):
70% of seats at Universities in Malaysia -- public and private -- are reserved for Bumis, and restricted to Chinese.

Do you mind quoting the source of your statistic? Because I can't reconcile this with what I've gone through especially when talking about private universities which is predominantly Chinese skewed.

[Edited 2015-12-21 19:29:18]
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A332DTW
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RE: New Malaysian Airline Sharia-Style

Tue Dec 22, 2015 3:35 am

My head is just spinning at what some of you people post...

Anyway, after reading that trip report I do not see anything extremist about the airline. The captain comes on and announces that out of respect for passengers that do not practice Islam, they may recite their own prayers. They also provide an explanation about what type of prayer they're actually doing, which is a pre-travel prayer... its not like they forced all the passengers to recite the Shahada.

Personally, I keep my religious practices private and recite a small prayer before I board a plane (not out loud), so just the fact that they label themselves "Sharia compliant" doesn't really sway me to fly them more than other carriers (if I were to travel in Malaysia). Pending research and enough time to accrue a safety record, I would not feel less safe flying them as I would any other carrier.
 
jfkgig
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RE: New Malaysian Airline Sharia-Style

Tue Dec 22, 2015 3:38 am

Quoting TheFlyingDisk (Reply 132):
Do you mind quoting the source of your statistic? Because I can't reconcile this with what I've gone through especially when talking about private universities which is predominantly Chinese skewed.
Quoting TheFlyingDisk (Reply 132):
Quoting jfkgig (Reply 131):
70% of seats at Universities in Malaysia -- public and private -- are reserved for Bumis, and restricted to Chinese.

Do you mind quoting the source of your statistic? Because I can't reconcile this with what I've gone through especially when talking about private universities which is predominantly Chinese skewed.

[Edited 2015-12-21 19:29:18]

70% is the magic number for many racial quotas in Malaysia, and it is easy to find many references to this 70% set aside for Bumi university seats and scholarship awards. Just one example is the Economist: http://www.economist.com/news/briefi...-turning-point-never-ending-policy
 
747megatop
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RE: New Malaysian Airline Sharia-Style

Tue Dec 22, 2015 3:53 am

Quoting 9w748capt (Reply 121):
my people will do anything for a quick buck though

Everybody my friend ! Making a quick buck knows no religion, skin colour, national boundaries etc.

[Edited 2015-12-21 20:09:10]
 
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TheFlyingDisk
Posts: 2013
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RE: New Malaysian Airline Sharia-Style

Tue Dec 22, 2015 3:54 am

Quoting jfkgig (Reply 134):
70% is the magic number for many racial quotas in Malaysia, and it is easy to find many references to this 70% set aside for Bumi university seats and scholarship awards. Just one example is the Economist: http://www.economist.com/news/briefi...-turning-point-never-ending-policy

Unfortunately they did not provide corroborating evidence of the fact. Based on my experience as a product of a Malaysian university myself, again I can't reconcile the 70/30 skew. 60/40 perhaps, but not 70/30. And definitely no quotas in private universities.
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747megatop
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RE: New Malaysian Airline Sharia-Style

Tue Dec 22, 2015 4:07 am

Quoting TheFlyingDisk (Reply 120):
If you even bother to read the trip report, you'll see that the Sharia-compliance stop at the crews.

I am not even going to bother reading the trip report. The very idea of a sharia compliant airline is as offensive as some group launching - aryan complaint airline OR blacks airline OR hindu airline OR christian airline OR blacks airline and then saying....look this stops only at the crew and doesn't involve passengers AND you know what...we don't really force the people not belonging to the respective groups to practice what that airline stands for but others are still welcome. The whole thing smacks of implied racism. Better yet, launch some premium airline with some distinguishing service such as "massage in the sky airlne" or like Etihad has luanched...a apartment in the sky feature in the airline..I am all for it.
 
mcogator
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RE: New Malaysian Airline Sharia-Style

Tue Dec 22, 2015 4:07 am

As someone who just recently spent a little over a week in KL while staying in Bukit Bintang close to all the Middle Eastern shops and plenty of women covered head to toe, never once did I feel uncomfortable and in threat from the "religiously intolerant Malays and their Saudi Wahabi overlords". I even spent most of my time walking around with my girlfriend, who is an FA for AK, grabbing beers and drinks wherever, and did not have a worry in the world. I didn't have any problems with my gf staying with me at night at my hotel, even though my reservations were only for one person. I believe in some other Muslim countries, you're required to show a marriage certificate if staying with someone at a local hotel who doesn't share your name. As someon who doesn't practice any religion, I'm sure most of the hate here is from people with an agenda, or others who have fallen for Islamophobia and have never been to the wonderful country of Malaysia.
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747megatop
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RE: New Malaysian Airline Sharia-Style

Tue Dec 22, 2015 4:16 am

Quoting mcogator (Reply 138):
or others who have fallen for Islamophobia and have never been to the wonderful country of Malaysia.

The point is not about islamophobia. It is about racism (and now, let's not make it about racismophobia). I would like to see how most muslim countries would allow a Buddhist compliant airline OR Christian Compliant Airline OR Hindu compliant airline.I would be really really really suprised if they did and even if they did that i think it is racist as explained in my previous post. It is one thing to offer halal meals or kosher meals or hindu vegetarian meals or in fact prayer rooms on planes BUT it is another thing to officially brand an airline to be compliant to a specific religion, skin color etc. So, let's not make a wild accusation that this is about islamophobia.
 
mcogator
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RE: New Malaysian Airline Sharia-Style

Tue Dec 22, 2015 4:32 am

Quoting 747megatop (Reply 139):
It is about racism (and now, let's not make it about racismophobia). I would like to see how most muslim countries would allow a Buddhist compliant airline OR Christian Compliant Airline OR Hindu compliant airline.

Why not a Jewish compliant airline used as comparison? LY is a kosher airline that doesn't fly on the sabath or Jewish holidays and it has flown, but not currently, to a number of Muslim countries. Why do people not complain about LY since it practically follows Judaism? Hence, Islamophobia.
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747megatop
Posts: 1785
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RE: New Malaysian Airline Sharia-Style

Tue Dec 22, 2015 4:40 am

Quoting mcogator (Reply 140):
Hence, Islamophobia.

That is your interpretation. I have given a very clear view of at least my viewpoint. I have even given an example of prayer rooms being offered on flights which i am fine with.

Quoting mcogator (Reply 140):
Why not a Jewish compliant airline used as comparison? LY is a kosher airline that

I wasn't aware that LY officially brands itself as a Jewish compliant airline versus offering onboard products that cater to specific persons based on their dietery preferences etc. Can you pls produce some proof to back your statement?
 
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TheFlyingDisk
Posts: 2013
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RE: New Malaysian Airline Sharia-Style

Tue Dec 22, 2015 4:51 am

Quoting 747megatop (Reply 141):

So the problem now is that the airline branded itself as Sharia-compliant, is that what you're saying?

As for El Al:

Quote:
Then there is the Sabbath.

As is the case with the rest of its planes, El Al cannot fly its expensive new Boeing jetliners from Friday evening to Saturday night, or on eight other sundown-to-sundown Jewish holidays. The Sabbath restriction was imposed in 1982 when the rightist government of Menachem Begin wrested control of the ailing company from its union. The company was restructured as the designated national carrier, with a pared-down work force and a guaranteed monopoly on international air freight and scheduled passenger flights.

Keeping its fleet grounded on the Sabbath costs the company some $36 million yearly in potential net earnings, according to a study conducted for El Al three years ago by the Boston Consulting Group. That is a make-or-break figure for a company that posted losses of $83 million in 1996 and $4 million in 1997, before turning a profit in 1998 that was estimated at $25 million.

''The Sabbath is more than 24 hours,'' Mr. Ciechanover said in an interview at the company's utilitarian headquarters at Ben Gurion airport. ''Take our flights to New York. We fly overnight Thursday, land early Friday morning and stay there on the ground until late Saturday night. That is 20 percent of our workweek.

''This is a Jewish state,'' he continued, ''and it is understandably important to many people that the designated national carrier be respectful of the Sabbath. But the cost is very high.'' http://www.nytimes.com/1999/03/05/bu....html
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777Jet
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RE: New Malaysian Airline Sharia-Style

Tue Dec 22, 2015 5:15 am

They could have called this new airline 'Sharia Air'.

I think it sounds quite nice and much better than Rayani Air - too similar to Ryan Air.

Also, 'Air' are the last three letters in 'Sharia' in reverse order - genius!

Anyway, it is what it is.

Having said that, MAS / MH is doing a bit of re-branding of its own and whilst they aren't intending to change their name, a name change wouldn't hurt after the loss of two 777s and all of those fatalities in 2014.

Perhaps MH could be re-named 'Sharia Air'?  
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Planeflyer
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RE: New Malaysian Airline Sharia-Style

Tue Dec 22, 2015 5:26 am

Quoting Mham101

33% of Malaysians believe suicide bombings against civilians can be justified in defending Islam from its enemies, (compared to 7% in Pakistan). 86% of Muslim Malaysians support the implementation of Sharia law, 44% of them believe Sharia law should extend to all Malaysians and 62% of them believe in the death penalty for converting away from Islam. If this is the definition of 'liberal' Muslim society, we have real problems.


Is sharia law practiced on a large scale anywhere? If so, how do the locals like it.
 
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777Jet
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RE: New Malaysian Airline Sharia-Style

Tue Dec 22, 2015 5:33 am

Quoting Planeflyer (Reply 144):
Quoting Mham101

33% of Malaysians believe suicide bombings against civilians can be justified in defending Islam from its enemies,

If true, I wonder if Muslim Malaysian civilians would understand if their own type were the victims of suicide bombings from people practicing other religions (enemies of Islam)... I don't think so.

[Edited 2015-12-21 21:33:52]
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oxymorph
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RE: New Malaysian Airline Sharia-Style

Tue Dec 22, 2015 5:38 am

Quoting TheFlyingDisk (Reply 75):
don't think so. We're nowhere close to becoming a dictatorship run by a military junta.

Yes, you are in essence already what you claim not to be. But then again, you live right down the street from your one-time wear two hats at once minister of defense and transportation, one Datuk Seri Hishammuddin. BN has now ruled this country for 60 years. Power is entrenched and consolidated among the elites via a rancid strain of nepotism. Fear and intimidation rule the day here, and the days are long and heavy.

In fact, some are so desperate for change and real democracy that they have resorted to stealing the national carriers 777, murdering 238 human beings and flying the aircraft to the middle of nowhere. You know, some guy named Zaharie Shah that was the PIC on MH370

Fabulous things happening here.

Quoting mariner (Reply 119):
As Thomas Jefferson said, it neither steals my wallet nor breaks my leg.

Nah, but it should offend your sensibilities and morality...if for no other reason than its deplorable treatment of women.
 
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TheRedBaron
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RE: New Malaysian Airline Sharia-Style

Tue Dec 22, 2015 5:40 am

If they hire a woman pilot, will she use the weird star wars clothing?

Honest question, or Women will be banned from the cockpit?

TRB
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zippy
Posts: 161
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RE: New Malaysian Airline Sharia-Style

Tue Dec 22, 2015 5:49 am

Quoting jfkgig (Reply 131):
70% of seats at Universities in Malaysia -- public and private -- are reserved for Bumis, and restricted to Chinese. That is a fact. 1 Million Chinese have emigrated from Malaysia as a result -- and many now live in California, USA where having left to pursue educational equity for their children, they ironically are again restricted from University by "affirmative action" policies which have determined that the best universities are now "too Asian."

Race based quotas do not exist in California's two public university systems. More than east Asians being overrepresented, the UC and CSU systems are pandering to out-of-state and foreign students because they are more profitable.

Quoting AngMoh (Reply 130):
Technically, the preferential treatment for Bumiputras is similar to preferential treatment given to minorities to enter US Universities where a black student gets preference over a white or Asian students even though his entry scores are lower, the proposed preferential treatment for women to enter senior management positions in large companies and other "affirmative action" policies in the west.

Article 153 is far closer to apartheid than "affirmative action" as seen in American universities. Discussing race based quotas (including disagreeing with them) is not illegal in the United States. It *is* illegal in Malaysia (even for political figures), and as Anwar Ibrahim can attest, punishment can include being subjected to a kangaroo court and imprisonment. Beyond that, American universities never used quotas to completely deny admittance to a given race. Neither did so-called affirmative action policies offer discounts on real estate purchases, set race based trade quotas, nor did they create explicitly racially segregated housing. Article 153 does these things.

Quoting mcogator (Reply 138):
As someon who doesn't practice any religion, I'm sure most of the hate here is from people with an agenda, or others who have fallen for Islamophobia and have never been to the wonderful country of Malaysia.

There's a huge difference between a quick visit and actually living someplace. Being a tourist affords you quite a bit of privilege, especially if you present as white (even in the United States).
 
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TheFlyingDisk
Posts: 2013
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RE: New Malaysian Airline Sharia-Style

Tue Dec 22, 2015 5:53 am

Quoting oxymorph (Reply 146):
Yes, you are in essence already what you claim not to be. But then again, you live right down the street from your one-time wear two hats at once minister of defense and transportation, one Datuk Seri Hishammuddin. BN has now ruled this country for 60 years. Power is entrenched and consolidated among the elites via a rancid strain of nepotism. Fear and intimidation rule the day here, and the days are long and heavy.

Facts doesn't support you case - case in point why would they allow the Opposition to control two prosperous states if this country is truly a dictatorship? Kind of defies logic.

It's not the ruling party's fault that the Opposition can't present a coherent front & is mired in infighting between its member parties.

Now how is this relevant to the discussion at hand?

Quoting TheRedBaron (Reply 147):

If they hire a woman pilot, will she use the weird star wars clothing?

Honest question, or Women will be banned from the cockpit?

TRB

Malaysian Muslims aren't Arabs - we don't force our women to wear the "weird star wars clothing" or deny women their rights.

Quoting zippy (Reply 148):
Article 153 is far closer to apartheid than "affirmative action" as seen in American universities. Discussing race based quotas (including disagreeing with them) is not illegal in the United States. It *is* illegal in Malaysia (even for political figures), and as Anwar Ibrahim can attest, punishment can include being subjected to a kangaroo court and imprisonment.

Actually it's not illegal to discuss Article 153 - case in point
a) http://www.freemalaysiatoday.com/cat...-must-comply-with-reid-commission/
b) http://www.freemalaysiatoday.com/cat...exploit-ignorance-of-constitution/

Quoting zippy (Reply 148):
Beyond that, American universities never used quotas to completely deny admittance to a given race. Neither did so-called affirmative action policies offer discounts on real estate purchases, set race based trade quotas, nor did they create explicitly racially segregated housing. Article 153 does these things.

1) "American universities never used quotas to completely deny admittance to a given race." - completely false. As it's pointed out non-Malays aren't denied admittance to higher education especially completely.
2) Discounts on real estate purchases - only on Bumiputera allocated units with the provision that if the unit is unsold after a certain period it can be converted & sold to a non-Bumiputera (which allows for gaming by the developer - advertise the Bumi units as sold out, give fabricated excuse about Bumi buyers not able to get loans etc, wait a certain period & sell at profit). Also, the discounts aren't as significant as you'd imagine - which explains why Bumiputera house ownership lags behind non-Bumiputeras, namely Chinese
3) Set race based trade quotas - which is slowly being liberalized by the current government.
4) Create explicitly racially segregated housing - completely false. If there's any racial segregation it's done on the buyer's own volition.

[Edited 2015-12-21 22:10:42]
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