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n92r03
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RE: KSA Sharia Police Jurisdiction "Western" Flights?

Mon Dec 21, 2015 8:12 pm

Quoting bastew (Reply 18):
We have had crew arrested and detained in the past - most recently a male/female combo meeting up in a mall downtown.

What is the "crime' for meeting at a mall, or anywhere else?
 
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777Jet
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RE: KSA Sharia Police Jurisdiction "Western" Flights?

Mon Dec 21, 2015 8:36 pm

Quoting n92r03 (Reply 50):
Quoting bastew (Reply 18):
We have had crew arrested and detained in the past - most recently a male/female combo meeting up in a mall downtown.

What is the "crime' for meeting at a mall, or anywhere else?

Potentially having a good time?
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LAXdude1023
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RE: KSA Sharia Police Jurisdiction "Western" Flights?

Mon Dec 21, 2015 8:40 pm

Quoting zeke (Reply 12):
It is also why the “religious police” in Saudi Arabia prohibit the sale of dogs and cats for pets, why the Taliban forbids the use of cameras and playing football, and why the Somali women are beaten if they are caught wearing a bra. In other words anyone that copies a non-Muslim in any way is an apostate, because he or she is then an “unbeliever”.

I know that isnt true. LOTS of people in Saudi Arabia (and other Muslim countries) have pet cats.

Saudi Arabia actually has one of the highest cat ownership rates in the world.
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nitepilot79
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RE: KSA Sharia Police Jurisdiction "Western" Flights?

Mon Dec 21, 2015 8:43 pm

Quoting 777way (Reply 45):
^ Yes could be to stir up hatered, you can never know the intent.

You couldn't be more off the mark...Although I do not agree with women being oppressed by Sharia law. And I can't believe anyone would defend (not trying to say you do) that aspect of Sharia law. This is 2015.

Quoting redadeco (Reply 48):
No I'm not and I was not questioned about religion/citizenship before getting served. A Saudi friend who was traveling with me on the same flight got served as well, so what?

Was a simple question to get a better understanding of the situation. You don't need to get offended.

[Edited 2015-12-21 12:46:50]
 
nitepilot79
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RE: KSA Sharia Police Jurisdiction "Western" Flights?

Mon Dec 21, 2015 8:58 pm

Quoting Turjo101 (Reply 44):
2 threads started about sharia related topic - by same poster.

New Malaysian Airline Sharia-Style (by nitepilot79 Dec 20 2015 in Civil Aviation)

AND it's close to Christmas. Gimme a break  .
 
lancelot07
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RE: KSA Sharia Police Jurisdiction "Western" Flights?

Mon Dec 21, 2015 9:13 pm

Quoting 777Jet (Reply 51):

Indeed the wirst of all Crimes for puritans of all sorts
 
bluejuice
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RE: KSA Sharia Police Jurisdiction "Western" Flights?

Mon Dec 21, 2015 9:40 pm

As others have stated, there are no religious police on Saudia flights. Having flown internationally to and domestically within KSA, I have never seen anyone, official or unofficial, trying to enforce Sharia law.

Quoting bastew (Reply 18):
The Saudi flights are actually quite interesting to work. The Saudi passengers once onboard are actually very relaxed and easy going. I've never had request for sex segregations or such onboard (unlike with Orthodox Jews which is a far more regular occurrence). I would say a minority of the females wear any niqab or hijab on board - no more than any other flights from the UK really anyway.

On my last BA flight from LHR to RUH, my seatmate was an extremely fashionable woman dressed to the nines. She was 3 months pregnant and we had a normal discussion regarding parenting. No different than any two people chatting to pass the time on a flight on a domestic US flight. About 30 minutes before landing when she and other females changed into niqabs. Once wheels down, we said our farewells and became complete strangers again.
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bastew
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RE: KSA Sharia Police Jurisdiction "Western" Flights?

Mon Dec 21, 2015 9:42 pm

I guess it's interesting to have an insight into airlines that operate to countries where the culture is very different. I'm sure it can be done without disrespecting anyones faith. For those of us that don't follow any particular faith it's just 'different'.

For example the religious and cultural requirements are far more extreme on a flight to TLV than on a flight to JED or RUH. Kosher diets seem to be a lot harder to accommodate than Halal diets (for example some seafood and vegetarian dishes are not acceptable to Kosher passengers who haven't ordered a special meal but is fine for Halal passengers). The packaging and cooking of the Kosher meals is a proper faff. We can't open them to check if they are properly cooked or not as they have to be served sealed. So they usually come back for reheating. And seating really does seem an issue for the orthodox jews - on every flight it is a game of musical chairs with some of the men refusing to be seated next to women.

However this isn't reflected when we get off the aircraft at the other end - TLV is very relaxed, liberal, laid back and cosmopolitan whereas Saudi is anything but.

I have no problem flying to Saudi because it is what it is. It doesn't pretend to be anything else. Unlike Dubai it isn't trying to be a 'Vegas of the middle east'. It has no tourism industry and does not invite tourist to come. I actually feel more uncomfortable in the likes of Dubai which can very easily lull you into a false sense of security. Sharia law is applied in DXB too - being drunk is illegal. And yet 'all you can drink' sunday brunches are advertised widely. Being gay is illegal - yet venues host gay parties. You never quite know where you stand there. They try to pretend they are a big playground in the mid east for westerners yet unfortunately many westerners have found out it's anything but.

[Edited 2015-12-21 13:45:02]
 
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RE: KSA Sharia Police Jurisdiction "Western" Flights?

Mon Dec 21, 2015 9:48 pm

Quoting B747400ERF (Reply 30):
I know misogyny when I see it!

No you don't was trying to protect them, if this misogyny in your thinking then you are wrong, period.
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goosebayguy
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RE: KSA Sharia Police Jurisdiction "Western" Flights?

Mon Dec 21, 2015 9:55 pm

I've never seen so much rubbish and misinformation in all my life. I have flown into and out of KSA and nothing reported here comes close. Yes you will board in London with everyone in Western dress and then half an hour before landing the women head to the toilets to get changed. Customs is much easier than years ago when every bag was checked thoroughly. If you fly on Saudia they will play the prayer for travel before take off but really nothing much else is different.
 
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RE: KSA Sharia Police Jurisdiction "Western" Flights?

Mon Dec 21, 2015 10:08 pm

This thread is less airliners.net and more Donald Trump rally. Moderators please do your thing.
 
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andrefranca
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RE: KSA Sharia Police Jurisdiction "Western" Flights?

Mon Dec 21, 2015 10:40 pm

Quoting planecrazy20 (Reply 17):
Have you ever been to a Muslim country? Me and every other Arab man i know wear shoes. I have friends and family in Saudi Arabia with pet dogs and pet cats. Taliban are extremists, they do not represent the majority of Muslims. There is only one case i can find of a Somali woman beaten for wearing a bra, which was done by an extremist group.

Maybe you should visit the region some time

The world is crazy.... due to culture my kuwaiti boyfriend used to hold my hand and no problems (we're both gays).... but in Bahrain a photo inside the shopping mall took me into the police station and almost killed me by heart attack!  

But I wouldn't joke with the Saudis, I love my head and want it along my body...
 
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RE: KSA Sharia Police Jurisdiction "Western" Flights?

Mon Dec 21, 2015 10:58 pm

Quoting LAXdude1023 (Reply 52):
I know that isnt true. LOTS of people in Saudi Arabia (and other Muslim countries) have pet cats.

Saudi Arabia actually has one of the highest cat ownership rates in the world.


I have heard dogs are considered to be "unclean" by Muslims (despite once reading about claims that Mohamed had a companion dog) however cats seem to be fine.
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rbavfan
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RE: KSA Sharia Police Jurisdiction "Western" Flights?

Mon Dec 21, 2015 11:22 pm

Quoting nitepilot79 (Reply 13):

He was not on Saudia. They do not even carry alcohol. Must have been on one of dozens of airlines that fly there that do serve it. Other carriers can have it on board the plane, but can't serve it till after till you leave Saudi airspace.

[Edited 2015-12-21 15:23:03]

[Edited 2015-12-21 15:46:21]
 
rbavfan
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RE: KSA Sharia Police Jurisdiction "Western" Flights?

Mon Dec 21, 2015 11:24 pm

Quoting bastew (Reply 14):

Is Halal meal required as well?
 
rbavfan
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RE: KSA Sharia Police Jurisdiction "Western" Flights?

Mon Dec 21, 2015 11:28 pm

Quoting bastew (Reply 18):
The Saudi passengers once onboard are actually very relaxed and easy going. I've never had request for sex segregations or such onboard (unlike with Orthodox Jews which is a far more regular occurrence).

Fully agree. they also tend to not make prior arrangements and get mad if the airline won't re-arrange passengers once the plane i being loaded. If you don't want to sit next to a woman make prior arrangements or shut up and don't delay my flight.
 
rbavfan
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RE: KSA Sharia Police Jurisdiction "Western" Flights?

Mon Dec 21, 2015 11:31 pm

Quoting bastew (Reply 18):
When we, the crew, clear customs our passports are retained until we depart (we obviously don't enter on Visas). Only Saudi and Egypt do this of the countries we operate to.

I know FA's & pilots that need this done at all there stops. More than one has forgotten their passport at a hotel.
 
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RE: KSA Sharia Police Jurisdiction "Western" Flights?

Mon Dec 21, 2015 11:34 pm

Quoting WIederling (Reply 24):

You do realize Apple had a commercial that was filmed on Phone's & iPads and edited with the software on the iPhone/iPads?
 
rbavfan
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RE: KSA Sharia Police Jurisdiction "Western" Flights?

Mon Dec 21, 2015 11:35 pm

Quoting Alfons (Reply 43):

Guessing you had a passport stamp from Israel.
 
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zeke
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RE: KSA Sharia Police Jurisdiction "Western" Flights?

Mon Dec 21, 2015 11:36 pm

Quoting LAXdude1023 (Reply 52):
I know that isnt true. LOTS of people in Saudi Arabia (and other Muslim countries) have pet cats.

Saudi Arabia actually has one of the highest cat ownership rates in the world.

The prohibition was on the sale, not on the ownership. Dogs also must be for a purpose (eg guard dog), not as a pet.

http://www.aljazeera.com/archive/2006/09/200849133632267770.html

There are countless things that are prohibited in Saudi Arabia, and people do it anyway until they get caught.
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RE: KSA Sharia Police Jurisdiction "Western" Flights?

Mon Dec 21, 2015 11:49 pm

Quoting zeke (Reply 69):
The prohibition was on the sale, not on the ownership. Dogs also must be for a purpose (eg guard dog), not as a pet.

Fair.

It is somewhat ironic since the Prophet Muhammed loved cats and kept them as pets. Also, Sharia law prohibits the harm of any animal unless youre going to eat it.
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TheFlyingDisk
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RE: KSA Sharia Police Jurisdiction "Western" Flights?

Mon Dec 21, 2015 11:53 pm

Quoting zeke (Reply 69):
The prohibition was on the sale, not on the ownership. Dogs also must be for a purpose (eg guard dog), not as a pet.

Well, given how pet shops often treat animals for sale badly, it's not that bad of a thing to ban pet sales. Even PETA agrees - http://www.peta.org/issues/companion...animal-issues/pet-trade/pet-shops/

Although the reason the Muttawa gave is ridiculous.
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ua900
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RE: KSA Sharia Police Jurisdiction "Western" Flights?

Tue Dec 22, 2015 12:37 am

Quoting Alfons (Reply 7):
omg, really remembers Nazi Germany with the SS on the road. What a culture.

Um, how? Did they require girls to have a veil or that people refrain from drinking alcohol?

Quoting AirIndia (Reply 9):
Guess u r not married!!! :P

Exactly right. Those of us who are / have been married can and do understand.

Quoting AirIndia (Reply 9):
I have also seen on flights to Tehran. The moment seat belt sign is off, the head scarves go flying around the cabin. its pretty much liek a graduation ceremony onboard.

Ditto for other conservative Gulf States, e.g. BAH.

Quoting zeke (Reply 12):
In other words anyone that copies a non-Muslim in any way is an apostate, because he or she is then an “unbeliever”.

Don't tell the Muslim girls in the C cabin, they copy Western girls 1:1 by the time doors are closed if not earlier.

Quoting bastew (Reply 14):
On flights to/from the UK we can not serve alcohol in their airspace at the request of Saudi authorities. We need to lock and seal the alcohol and duty free bars as soon as we enter Saudi airspace and are not allowed to open them until we have left Saudi airspace on the return flight. All catering is HALAL in both directions for all passengers.

Well, it's not like UA ever served pork as an option on their ME routes, there is very little demand for that from either side as most Westerners travelling in the region are well aware of the local culture. There is also less and less drinking the closer you are to their airspace. People don't even wait for the "last call" announcement, they already know it's coming.

Quoting WIederling (Reply 16):
Ladies are a young man's disaster and an old man's delight

  

Quoting a320fan (Reply 20):
Very interesting, yet disturbing anecdotes in this thread. It actually quite upsets me that a state thinks they have the right to have so much control over what people can and cannot do and wear.

If I were a girl in the ME I'd cover up too. It's not just the Muslims, but also South Asians for example that stop and stare at every woman in say DXB where some women dress in western clothes in the mall or in the terminal. They openly stare at them and aren't shy to make advances since the girl is perceived to be easy. Sure that's unfair but that's a commonly held view on immodesty in a public setting.

For people on the ground, there also seems to be a great mismatch between number of available men and women there, maybe due to polygamy. But whether it's women or alcohol it's just like the west except you don't ever do things openly in public. To me, the biggest difference is that quasi slavery in which personnel is kept, e.g. employers retaining passports, beating employees, etc. If you're rich enough or you're with someone on their private property the rules don't apply.
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thekorean
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RE: KSA Sharia Police Jurisdiction "Western" Flights?

Tue Dec 22, 2015 12:46 am

Quoting SCQ83 (Reply 27):

I've actually know Saudis who fly wstern carriers just so they can drink on flight.

They are interesting people. If they are any evidence of anything I can't imagine Sharia lasting forever in Saudi Arabia.
 
flylonghaul
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RE: KSA Sharia Police Jurisdiction "Western" Flights?

Tue Dec 22, 2015 1:40 am

Quoting bastew (Reply 38):
Serving booze on the ground is forbidden on nearly all mid east routes - even secular India does not allow liquor to be served on the aircraft until it is airborne.


Are you certain of this?
Myelf and the rest of the J cabin were served liquor while on the ground on BA198 3 weeks ago.
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redadeco
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RE: KSA Sharia Police Jurisdiction "Western" Flights?

Tue Dec 22, 2015 3:17 am

Quoting rbavfan (Reply 63):
He was not on Saudia. They do not even carry alcohol. Must have been on one of dozens of airlines that fly there that do serve it. Other carriers can have it on board the plane, but can't serve it till after till you leave Saudi airspace.

Obviously I wasn't flying SV which is a dry airline, but I got served alcohol when we were still overflying Saudi airspace to my surprise (I could see lights coming from DMM at that point).
 
nitepilot79
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RE: KSA Sharia Police Jurisdiction "Western" Flights?

Tue Dec 22, 2015 3:26 am

Quoting rbavfan (Reply 63):
He was not on Saudia. They do not even carry alcohol.

I know this  . I was wondering about all/any Sharia law violations.

Some one else up the thread specified alcohol.
 
nitepilot79
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RE: KSA Sharia Police Jurisdiction "Western" Flights?

Tue Dec 22, 2015 3:35 am

Quoting rbavfan (Reply 63):
He was not on Saudia. They do not even carry alcohol.

I know this  . I was wondering about any/all Sharia law violations in general.

Rededico was the one who mentioned alcohol.

[Edited 2015-12-21 19:37:00]
 
nitepilot79
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RE: KSA Sharia Police Jurisdiction "Western" Flights?

Tue Dec 22, 2015 3:40 am

Apologies for the double post. Reply 77 was meant to go through only.
 
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AirIndia
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RE: KSA Sharia Police Jurisdiction "Western" Flights?

Tue Dec 22, 2015 3:52 am

Quoting Flylonghaul (Reply 74):
Myelf and the rest of the J cabin were served liquor while on the ground on BA198 3 weeks ago.

And EK serves champagne to all F/J pax as a welcome drink while on ground in DXB.
 
ltbewr
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RE: KSA Sharia Police Jurisdiction "Western" Flights?

Tue Dec 22, 2015 3:55 am

I wonder if one has not so much to fear 'religious police' on the flights, but pressure from other pax and flight crew on how to act or appear per Saudi religious customs. There could be pressure to dress modestly, not drink to excess before or during the flight, not say anything in offensive to Islam or the Saud family and those not compliant may face a grilling by religious police upon landing and possibly denied into the country.
I presume on Hajj flights with the numbers of Imans and more conservative Muslims on the flights and going to a religious pilgrimage to Mecca, there is no alcohol served and modesty requirements are strictly held.
 
AsoRock
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RE: KSA Sharia Police Jurisdiction "Western" Flights?

Tue Dec 22, 2015 8:38 am

Quoting Alfons (Reply 43):
Will never happen, as KSA wouldn't even let me into their country for me to see another perspective DUE to my faith and origins of stamps in my passport. In swiss german you would say now "selber tschuld".

What does this have to do with our topic ? We were discussing alcohol being served in KSA airspace which I have personally experienced countless times on most airlines (seems BA is an exception for unknown reasons). Now concerning your faith, which I'm assuming is Judaism, there is no problem between the Jewish and Muslim faith. The current political state of affairs in the Middle East is that most countries are officially in a state of war with Israel over its creation and the ensuing ethnic cleansing. For this reason, there is an official 'embargo' on those who have Israeli passport stamps. If you wish to get rid of this constraint, Israel has to be in favor of the Arab Peace Initiative which was rejected by Israel (I'll stop here since that should be discussed in the Non-Aviation Forum).

Quoting bastew (Reply 57):
I have no problem flying to Saudi because it is what it is. It doesn't pretend to be anything else. Unlike Dubai it isn't trying to be a 'Vegas of the middle east'. It has no tourism industry and does not invite tourist to come. I actually feel more uncomfortable in the likes of Dubai which can very easily lull you into a false sense of security. Sharia law is applied in DXB too - being drunk is illegal. And yet 'all you can drink' sunday brunches are advertised widely. Being gay is illegal - yet venues host gay parties. You never quite know where you stand there. They try to pretend they are a big playground in the mid east for westerners yet unfortunately many westerners have found out it's anything but.

Well said!
 
WIederling
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RE: KSA Sharia Police Jurisdiction "Western" Flights?

Tue Dec 22, 2015 9:26 am

Quoting rbavfan (Reply 67):
You do realize Apple had a commercial that was filmed on Phone's & iPads and edited with the software on the iPhone/iPads?

It's less in the tools than in the design. I stand with my allegation that they are vastly different in quality and reach from the "AK47 wielding/firing masked Arabic screamers" that dominated the field of islamic videos until recently.
This goes a bit in depth:
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( use google translate )

My guess would be that a significant amount of presented raw material is not taken in situ but staged for the occasion.
Arabiwood so to speak.
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planecrazy20
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RE: KSA Sharia Police Jurisdiction "Western" Flights?

Tue Dec 22, 2015 11:33 am

Quoting zeke (Reply 21):
[quote=andrefranca,reply=61]The world is crazy.... due to culture my kuwaiti boyfriend used to hold my hand and no problems (we're both gays).... but in Bahrain a photo inside the shopping mall took me into the police station and almost killed me by heart attack!  

I am too, and while holding my boyfriends hand in public wont get me in trouble, nowadays you get a lot of judgmental stares.

Quoting bastew (Reply 38):
Serving booze on the ground is forbidden on nearly all mid east routes - even secular India does not allow liquor to be served on the aircraft until it is airborne.

Even though alcohol is illegal in Kuwait, i was served champagne as soon as i boarded when i flew business class on KLM. While others have told me alcohol wasn't served until after take-off. I think it might differ with every airline.
 
SCQ83
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RE: KSA Sharia Police Jurisdiction "Western" Flights?

Tue Dec 22, 2015 12:23 pm

Quoting Alfons (Reply 43):
Will never happen, as KSA wouldn't even let me into their country for me to see another perspective DUE to my faith and origins of stamps in my passport. In swiss german you would say now "selber tschuld".

Alfons

I have visited KSA with 2 Jewish persons (and with more-than-obvious Jewish first and family names, read Gold... and that kind of family names) and no one could care less, from the passport control to the hotel check-in.
 
bastew
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RE: KSA Sharia Police Jurisdiction "Western" Flights?

Tue Dec 22, 2015 10:06 pm

Quoting Flylonghaul (Reply 74):
Quoting bastew (Reply 38):
Serving booze on the ground is forbidden on nearly all mid east routes - even secular India does not allow liquor to be served on the aircraft until it is airborne.


Are you certain of this?
Myelf and the rest of the J cabin were served liquor while on the ground on BA198 3 weeks ago.

A HUGE no-no Flylonghaul! Am 110% certain no booze is to be served on the ground from any Indian station. Naughty crew! Lol

Tbh i've twisted the rules a little myself on flights from RUH to LHR when working in First or Business. The flight departs RUH at 01:00 and some of the westerners that have been in Saudi for a period of time are literally gasping for a drink yet it's usually about 90-100 mins into the flight before we are out of Saudi airspace. Obviously the pax on this route want to get into their flat beds ASAP - it's a short night sector. It has been known -after say half an hour after take off when we are relatively sure we won't turn around for any reason - that we've popped some whiskey or port into a coffee mug for a desperate gold card holder.

[Edited 2015-12-22 14:14:45]
 
777way
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RE: KSA Sharia Police Jurisdiction "Western" Flights?

Wed Dec 23, 2015 12:59 am

Quoting AsoRock (Reply 81):
there is an official 'embargo' on those who have Israeli passport stamps

It seems rather hypocritical, considering that Israeli nationals are flying their airlines, transitting their airports, playing sports in their countries and the country has or had trade mussuons in some and is now even being allowed to set up an enviroment concerned mission in UAE.

Its all so laughable, but then again the west did same with South Africa despite imposing sanctions and boycotts on that place, what a fucked up world it is.

Quoting ltbewr (Reply 80):
I presume on Hajj flights with the numbers of Imans and more conservative Muslims on the flights and going to a religious pilgrimage to Mecca, there is no alcohol served and modesty requirements are strictly held.

Hajj flights are a separate deal, they are like charters with four didgit flight numbers atleat PIA have that, also I think some fly on regular flights of other airlines too in small groups like say Emirates from KHI via DXB the first leg will have booze for regular passengers, I could be wrong though.

Quoting ua900 (Reply 72):
Ditto for other conservative Gulf States, e.g. BAH.

I thought thats the most liberal place, they openly serve pork in some restaurants there.

Quoting AirIndia (Reply 79):

And EK serves champagne to all F/J pax as a welcome drink while on ground in DXB.

I think he was on Saudi land, thats a big deal.

Quoting Jagflyer (Reply 62):
I have heard dogs are considered to be "unclean" by Muslims (despite once reading about claims that Mohamed had a companion dog) however cats seem to be fine.

The prophet never had a dog, where did you read that? yes they are considered unclean, even in Hinduism.

Quoting rampbro (Reply 60):
This thread is less airliners.net and more Donald Trump rally. Moderators please do your thing.

Wondering the same.

Quoting nitepilot79 (Reply 53):
Quoting 777way (Reply 45):
^ Yes could be to stir up hatered, you can never know the intent.

You couldn't be more off the mark..

You say it and I believe you?
 
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RE: KSA Sharia Police Jurisdiction "Western" Flights?

Wed Dec 23, 2015 5:05 am

Unable to keep up with delete suggestions in this thread.
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