UsAir737
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When Will DL Begin To Retire The M88?

Sat Dec 26, 2015 8:08 pm

How long before DL starts to park the 88's? AA expects to have their mad dogs gone in 2018. I know tech ops is fantastic at maintaining and refurbishing older AC but when will they reach their limits? Any idea of how many cycles on the mad dogs?
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michman
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RE: When Will DL Begin To Retire The M88?

Sat Dec 26, 2015 8:21 pm

I'm feeling a sense of Deja Vu -- DL MD88 Replacement (by UsAir737 May 7 2015 in Civil Aviation)
 
Delta757MD88
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RE: When Will DL Begin To Retire The M88?

Sat Dec 26, 2015 8:23 pm

NEVER LONG live the MD88!!
Flown on: MD-88/90 DC-9 717 737-7/8/900, 757-2/300, 767-3/400 777-200/300ER 787-9, E145/170/175, CRJ-100/200/700/900, A319/320 A333 A350 Q300/400.
 
deltal1011man
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RE: When Will DL Begin To Retire The M88?

Sat Dec 26, 2015 8:39 pm

Quoting UsAir737 (Thread starter):

Nothing has changed for me.
order in 2017 or so first one leaves in 2020.

Lot of MD fans wont like it but IMO its a pipe dream to think any MD88 is in the fleet till 2030. MD90/717 i do see in the fleet in 2030, however.
 
OOer
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RE: When Will DL Begin To Retire The M88?

Sat Dec 26, 2015 8:54 pm

Most MD88s have been around since the mid-80s. Would it even be possible to keep them around until 2030?

An A319/A320 mix would be the best replacement for these birds.
 
SXDFC
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RE: When Will DL Begin To Retire The M88?

Sat Dec 26, 2015 9:15 pm

They will be replaced with the NWA DC9s that are collecting dust out in the desert..  
 
deltal1011man
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RE: When Will DL Begin To Retire The M88?

Sat Dec 26, 2015 9:16 pm

Quoting OOer (Reply 4):

Most MD88s have been around since the mid-80s. Would it even be possible to keep them around until 2030?

cycle and hour wise yes. (at least most of the fleet)

cost wise? IMO no. I figure they will get a slowish pull down starting in 2020.

Quoting OOer (Reply 4):

An A319/A320 mix would be the best replacement for these birds.

I'm betting a 100 or so frame 737-8MAX order.

but i hope for 50 737 MAX with a TechOps MRO for the LEAP-X
and a 50 A32SNEO order with a TechOps MRO for the PW1100G

and a small either c-series or E2 order to finish off the fleet.
 
MIflyer12
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RE: When Will DL Begin To Retire The M88?

Sat Dec 26, 2015 10:14 pm

Quoting OOer (Reply 4):
Most MD88s have been around since the mid-80s. Would it even be possible to keep them around until 2030?

An A319/A320 mix would be the best replacement for these birds.


The eldest DL MD-88 was delivered at the end of 1987. The youngest, end 1993. Economic obsolescence - probably lack of parts - will likely doom them before hull age.

As short range aircraft, IMHO the best replacement would be CS100 and CS300 (if DL really thinks BBD has thirty stable years ahead). DL has 737-700s, -800s, and 319s where more range for that small seat count is needed.
 
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ghost77
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RE: When Will DL Begin To Retire The M88?

Sat Dec 26, 2015 10:18 pm

Quoting OOer (Reply 4):
An A319/A320 mix would be the best replacement for these birds.

Why would you replace 149-seat MD-88s with 126-seat A319s? Is the market shrinking?

g77
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DTWPurserBoy
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RE: When Will DL Begin To Retire The M88?

Sat Dec 26, 2015 10:30 pm

Some of the earliest MD88 frames have already been scrapped. One was used in that crash film with Denzel Washington. The cockpit and forward door were from ship 801. Most of those first ones were delivered as MD82's and were later upgraded.

I do not see any rush to retire them. They compliment the B717 and MD90 fleets nicely, DL just removed all of the aft galleys and added seats.
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flyinggoat
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RE: When Will DL Begin To Retire The M88?

Sat Dec 26, 2015 10:37 pm

Assuming the CS500 is built and is nothing more then a stretched CS300 with reduced range, it would be a perfect MD88 replacement.

That being said, the MD88 will probably be replaced by the 738MAX or whatever the 737RS is.
 
deltal1011man
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RE: When Will DL Begin To Retire The M88?

Sat Dec 26, 2015 10:37 pm

Quoting DTWPurserBoy (Reply 9):

Some of the earliest MD88 frames have already been scrapped.

only 3 plus the one that crashed in LGA has also been scrapped.

Quoting DTWPurserBoy (Reply 9):
DL just removed all of the aft galleys and added seats.

like 3 years ago if not longer
 
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N776AU
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RE: When Will DL Begin To Retire The M88?

Sat Dec 26, 2015 10:39 pm

It's a derivative of the DC-9 so never   
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flyabr
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RE: When Will DL Begin To Retire The M88?

Sat Dec 26, 2015 11:05 pm

Aren't some of the old NW A320s gettin' a bit long in the tooth too?? Any plans for those earlier frames to be replaced?
 
deltal1011man
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RE: When Will DL Begin To Retire The M88?

Sat Dec 26, 2015 11:32 pm

Quoting flyabr (Reply 13):

airbus has been working on a cycle extension for the A32S program. IIRC they are very comparable to the 737 now and thus the NW 320s are going to be around longer than plan.


originally they would have started replacing the first batch with 739s and 321s.
 
flyabr
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RE: When Will DL Begin To Retire The M88?

Sat Dec 26, 2015 11:45 pm

Quoting deltal1011man (Reply 14):
originally they would have started replacing the first batch with 739s and 321s.

when did NW begin taking delivery of the A320....was it late 80s??
 
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MD80
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RE: When Will DL Begin To Retire The M88?

Sun Dec 27, 2015 12:02 am

Quoting deltal1011man (Reply 11):
...plus the one that crashed in LGA has also been scrapped.

Is this confirmed?  

Thanks!
Dedicated to the MD-80, MD-90, MD-95, and DC-9: www.MD-80.com
 
MIflyer12
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RE: When Will DL Begin To Retire The M88?

Sun Dec 27, 2015 12:55 am

Quoting flyabr (Reply 15):
when did NW begin taking delivery of the A320....was it late 80s??

The earliest of the DL A320s dates from October 1990. DL must have some confidence in the longevity of the subfleet with cabin upgrades ongoing, and an AVOD upgrade due even after that.
 
deltal1011man
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RE: When Will DL Begin To Retire The M88?

Sun Dec 27, 2015 1:04 am

Quoting flyabr (Reply 15):

when did NW begin taking delivery of the A320....was it late 80s??

1990

Quoting MD80 (Reply 16):

Yep. Saw a picture not to long ago of it on a boat being taken away.

also off the DL ops sheet
 
OOer
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RE: When Will DL Begin To Retire The M88?

Sun Dec 27, 2015 1:20 am

Quoting ghost77 (Reply 8):
Why would you replace 149-seat MD-88s with 126-seat A319s? Is the market shrinking?

Delta's A319s (reconfigured) have 132 seats and the A320 has 160 seats. Since the MD88 has 149 seats, a mix of A319/A320 would allow Delta to throw in a few more seats in it's heavier MD88 markets and a something a bit slimmer in it's ligher MD88 markets. That's why...
 
UA444
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RE: When Will DL Begin To Retire The M88?

Sun Dec 27, 2015 1:26 am

Can anybody post the pic of N909DL being barged away from LGA?
 
Prost
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RE: When Will DL Begin To Retire The M88?

Sun Dec 27, 2015 1:27 am

I believe the first NWA A320s arrived in 1989, not 1990.
 
MKEdude
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RE: When Will DL Begin To Retire The M88?

Sun Dec 27, 2015 3:55 am

Quoting deltal1011man (Reply 11):
only 3 plus the one that crashed in LGA has also been scrapped.

Have they finished the official report on that? I'm legitimately asking, I haven't heard.
"You can't be a real country unless you have a beer and an airline." Frank Zappa
 
deltal1011man
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RE: When Will DL Begin To Retire The M88?

Sun Dec 27, 2015 4:13 am

Quoting Prost (Reply 21):
I believe the first NWA A320s arrived in 1989, not 1990.

sorry you are right

actives are 1990 or later though. (at least im pretty sure all the 1989 birds are gone.)
 
deltal1011man
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RE: When Will DL Begin To Retire The M88?

Sun Dec 27, 2015 4:16 am

Quoting MKEdude (Reply 22):

honestly don't know.

i thought it was to high of an EPR using T/Rs but i don't know if it was made official.

Quoting UA444 (Reply 20):

If i can ever find it again I will.

The issue was I believe it was a twitter photo completely unrelated to the aircraft I just noticed it in the background.
 
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RE: When Will DL Begin To Retire The M88?

Sun Dec 27, 2015 3:35 pm

Quoting Prost (Reply 21):
I believe the first NWA A320s arrived in 1989, not 1990.

That is correct. At least ships 3201-3204 were delivered in '89 because I worked on them. Back then the schedules were great--basically one coast-to-coast flight a day. As more entered the fleet the trips became progressively worse. I flew 3204 one day and by the next day an experimental interior had been installed (just new upholstery and carpeting) that did not wear well. It was quickly changed back.

A bunch of the early deliveries have already been scrapped.
Qualified on Concorde/B707/B720/B727/B737/B747/B757/B767/B777/DC-8/DC-9/DC-10/A319/A320/A330/MD-88-90
 
KingAir200
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RE: When Will DL Begin To Retire The M88?

Sun Dec 27, 2015 3:59 pm

Quoting deltal1011man (Reply 23):
actives are 1990 or later though. (at least im pretty sure all the 1989 birds are gone.)

Correct. 3209, the oldest active 320, was delivered in 1990.
 
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einsteinboricua
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RE: When Will DL Begin To Retire The M88?

Sun Dec 27, 2015 4:21 pm

Quoting MIflyer12 (Reply 7):
Economic obsolescence - probably lack of parts - will likely doom them before hull age.

Surely there will be some MD-80s in the desert from where you can get spare parts if needed. For a model that had a long production, there should be enough frames to get spares from.
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bigbird
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RE: When Will DL Begin To Retire The M88?

Sun Dec 27, 2015 4:59 pm

They already purchased several ex SAS MD-80s for parts as well I believe that they have some ex AA birds also.
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MD80
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RE: When Will DL Begin To Retire The M88?

Sun Dec 27, 2015 7:04 pm

Quoting bigbird (Reply 28):
...several ex SAS MD-80s for parts...

23 MD-80s formerly operated by SAS were purchased.

Regards
Dedicated to the MD-80, MD-90, MD-95, and DC-9: www.MD-80.com
 
Dldiamondboy
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RE: When Will DL Begin To Retire The M88?

Sun Dec 27, 2015 8:10 pm

I am guessing the flying pencil will be around for at least 8-10 more years. I also thought that DL was doing a major flight deck and avionics upgrades to
the MD-88 fleet? That being said DL poured 10 million per frame in 747-400 cabin upgrades and now they cannot retire them fast enough.
 
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northwestEWR
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RE: When Will DL Begin To Retire The M88?

Sun Dec 27, 2015 8:14 pm

I think a lot will depend on market economics and the price of oil. The 88 fleet is paid for and costs nothing to keep around. They might as well milk the fleet as long as they can because every year they wait, we get closer to the NSA and the possibility that Delta could skip a generation (or partially) of airplane and save billions in capital costs.

Remember on the short legs, the 88 is only about 5-12% worse in fuel burn per seat than the 737 and A320. Add the new Super98's 2-3% fuel burn savings and the 88 remains fairly competitive in terms of pure fuel burn on the routes they operate. Factor in ownership costs and for the time being, the 88 is here to stay.

I'd expect to see the 88 still flying in 2025 baring some major world events. If they can hold off until the NSA is launched that would be huge for Delta.
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rta
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RE: When Will DL Begin To Retire The M88?

Sun Dec 27, 2015 8:20 pm

Quoting DLdiamondboy (Reply 30):
That being said DL poured 10 million per frame in 747-400 cabin upgrades and now they cannot retire them fast enough.

I'm guessing most of that money was spent on seats which presumably could be installed on other aircraft.

Quoting northwestEWR (Reply 31):
Remember on the short legs, the 88 is only about 5-12% worse in fuel burn per seat than the 737 and A320. Add the new Super98's 2-3% fuel burn savings and the 88 remains


I thought the figure was much closer to 20%. Maybe the 20% figure is for longer flights?
 
Prost
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RE: When Will DL Begin To Retire The M88?

Sun Dec 27, 2015 8:37 pm

Quoting DTWPurserBoy (Reply 25):


That is correct. At least ships 3201-3204 were delivered in '89 because I worked on them. Back then the schedules were great--basically one coast-to-coast flight a day. As more entered the fleet the trips became progressively worse. I flew 3204 one day and by the next day an experimental interior had been installed (just new upholstery and carpeting) that did not wear well. It was quickly changed back.

A bunch of the early deliveries have already been scrapped.

I had been flying maybe 3 weeks and I got an illegal overnighter (standup, et al) to DCA from DTW. When the A320s were new, there was a steep learning curve for the mechanics, with lots of nuisance faults that needed to be taken care of. Anyway, I only brought my tote bag, as I'd only be in the hotel in DCA for 5 hours. The flight cancelled and I got a 22 hour SAN layover instead. And I was a broke new hire with no clothes. I learned my lesson: always have layover clothes with you.
 
BDL757
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RE: When Will DL Begin To Retire The M88?

Sun Dec 27, 2015 8:49 pm

Quoting deltal1011man (Reply 6):
I'm betting a 100 or so frame 737-8MAX order.
Quoting flyinggoat (Reply 10):
That being said, the MD88 will probably be replaced by the 738MAX or whatever the 737RS is.

Sign me up for more 737-800s/737-8MAX! The 738 has quickly become this flight attendant's favorite aircraft to work, especially the refurbished ones. Nice fwd and aft galleys, not too crammed full of people, AVOD; a much nicer experience for pax and crew than the reconfigured A31J/A32K as well as the 739 and soon to be A321. I'm crossing my fingers that eventually we get more 738s!
 
micstatic
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RE: When Will DL Begin To Retire The M88?

Sun Dec 27, 2015 9:11 pm

Quoting BDL757 (Reply 34):
Sign me up for more 737-800s/737-8MAX! The 738 has quickly become this flight attendant's favorite aircraft to work, especially the refurbished ones. Nice fwd and aft galleys, not too crammed full of people, AVOD; a much nicer experience for pax and crew than the reconfigured A31J/A32K as well as the 739 and soon to be A321. I'm crossing my fingers that eventually we get more 738s!

Suit yourself but I far prefer the A320 series cross section. More comfortable. But I'm really not a big fan of any of the newer 3x3 seating airplanes.
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pwm2txlhopper
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RE: When Will DL Begin To Retire The M88?

Sun Dec 27, 2015 9:41 pm

Quoting ghost77 (Reply 8):

Quoting OOer (Reply 4):
An A319/A320 mix would be the best replacement for these birds.

Why would you replace 149-seat MD-88s with 126-seat A319s? Is the market shrinking?

g77

The Airbuses burn about $2000 less fuel per hour. DL flies the MD's mostly on two to three hour flights. There's a lot more savings in fuel using the Airbus, than a few extra economy seats would bring in revenue on the MD. Especially on low yield flights from places like the Northeast to Florida.

[Edited 2015-12-27 13:42:57]
 
Dldiamondboy
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RE: When Will DL Begin To Retire The M88?

Sun Dec 27, 2015 9:45 pm

Quoting rta (Reply 32):
I'm guessing most of that money was spent on seats which presumably could be installed on other aircraft.

That is a good question. I have flown a lot on all the DL widebody aircraft. I know the upper deck seats for the 744 are unique. I have never flown on the
744 main deck. I also know the 777 lie flats are different than the A330 or the 767. The A330 and 767 lie flats are the most similar, not sure if they are the same seats.
 
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northwestEWR
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RE: When Will DL Begin To Retire The M88?

Sun Dec 27, 2015 9:45 pm

Quoting pwm2txlhopper (Reply 36):

The Airbuses burn about $2500 worth less fuel per hour. DL flies the MD's mostly on two to three hour flights. There's a lot more savings in fuel using the Airbus, than a few extra economy seats would bring in revenue on the MD. Especially on low yield flights from places like the Northeast to Florida.

Where are you getting those numbers? I ran a fuel burn analysis not that long ago and posted some of the numbers here for people to look at. On the sub 2 hour routes, it's 5-12% more fuel per seat than the Bus. If both are paid for then the bus becomes attractive but since any new airplanes would cost piles of capital cash, they're less attractive.
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Dalmd88
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RE: When Will DL Begin To Retire The M88?

Sun Dec 27, 2015 9:49 pm

Quoting einsteinboricua (Reply 27):

Surely there will be some MD-80s in the desert from where you can get spare parts if needed. For a model that had a long production, there should be enough frames to get spares from.

The limiting factor will most likely be structural spare parts. These can not be robbed from a retired airplane. Once the suppliers stop making things like cargo pit tie down stringers and the various frame sections and the like, the planes will start being hard to maintain. Some parts are in common with the MD90 and 717 but I bet some are not.

As the entire world fleet shrinks the market for these parts shrinks.
 
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RE: When Will DL Begin To Retire The M88?

Sun Dec 27, 2015 11:50 pm

Quoting northwestEWR (Reply 38):

Well, I was taking to an Allegiant Air pilot recently and he told me their three hour routes from Florida to New England cost about $2000 more per hour when flown in their MD-80s compared to the A320s.

Also, everything I've ever read has said A320s are about 25-35% more fuel efficient. I'm not going to take the time to do fuel calculations based on the current price of Jet-A, but I'm confident the fuel burn would be a couple thousand dollars less per hour.

If I'm wrong, so be it. You sure showed me. It's just a net forum.

AA’s Huge Aircraft Order Claims 35% Gain in Fuel Efficiency

http://www.triplepundit.com/2011/07/...er-claims-35-gain-fuel-efficiency/


'Allegiant introduces new planes that are comfier, more efficient'

http://vegasinc.com/business/2013/ma...ces-new-planes-are-comfier-more-e/
 
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northwestEWR
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RE: When Will DL Begin To Retire The M88?

Mon Dec 28, 2015 12:44 am

Quoting pwm2txlhopper (Reply 40):

I'm going to post the numbers I ran over the summer and let folks judge for themselves. $2000/leg seems extreme to me.
Delta Fleet Strategy Analysis - By The Numbers! (by northwestEWR May 5 2015 in Civil Aviation)
Northwest Airlines - Now You're Flying Smart
 
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pwm2txlhopper
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RE: When Will DL Begin To Retire The M88?

Mon Dec 28, 2015 2:37 am

Quoting northwestEWR (Reply 41):

Quoting pwm2txlhopper (Reply 40):

I'm going to post the numbers I ran over the summer and let folks judge for themselves. $2000/leg seems extreme to me.
Delta Fleet Strategy Analysis - By The Numbers! (by northwestEWR May 5 2015 in Civil Aviation)


I understand fuel burn per hour varies on things like weight, etc, but for average estimates, the A320 burns roughly 5,500 Lbs per hour. That translates to 808 Gallons per hour as jet fuel weighs 6.8 Lbs per gallon. With jet fuel averaging around $4.60 per gallon right now, that totals a fuel burn of $3,720 per hour.

Md-80 averages 1,050 gallons per hour. That's translates to $4,830 in fuel costs per hour.

So, for a three hour flight, that's about $3,300 less in fuel for the -320 vs the MD.

If DL flew the MD on a routes such as ATL to BOS, PVD, or Florida to the northeast, that's about 2.5 hours. So we'll say they'd save just short of $3000 per flight. If you include the return flight to the hub, more like $6000 Roundtrip is saved. When you have hundreds of planes those saved dollars add up fast. Especially when you consider savings over a years time.

DL also likes to use MD-88 on 2-3 hour higher yielding routes. Think ATL
to PVD, BDL, PWM, ROC, etc where's there's little low fare compitition and they can demand higher ticket prices.
 
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Revelation
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RE: When Will DL Begin To Retire The M88?

Mon Dec 28, 2015 2:44 am

Quoting MIflyer12 (Reply 7):

The eldest DL MD-88 was delivered at the end of 1987. The youngest, end 1993. Economic obsolescence - probably lack of parts - will likely doom them before hull age.
lightsaber gave a pretty definitive answer in:

DL MD88 Replacement (by UsAir737 May 7 2015 in Civil Aviation)

Quoting lightsaber:

DL did a large part order in 2013 and with it canceled vendor contracts. The have enough part for the full fleet until 2020, but then some parts will run out. Many of the vendors were small and thus closed shop. The big companies that bought their portfolios demand prices 3X or more per part.

Why the airframes could fly longer, the parts aren't there.

So I'd say 2020 is a good estimate.
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B757Forever
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RE: When Will DL Begin To Retire The M88?

Mon Dec 28, 2015 3:16 am

Quoting pwm2txlhopper (Reply 42):
With jet fuel averaging around $4.60 per gallon right now,

You need to shop around for fuel if you are paying $4.60 for Jet A. Airlines right now are paying sub $2.00 per gallon.
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Chaostheory
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RE: When Will DL Begin To Retire The M88?

Mon Dec 28, 2015 3:29 am

Quoting pwm2txlhopper (Reply 42):
With jet fuel averaging around $4.60 per gallon right now, that totals a fuel burn of $3,720 per hour.

Price at the pump ranges 1.6-$2/USG.
 
md80fanatic
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RE: When Will DL Begin To Retire The M88?

Mon Dec 28, 2015 4:46 am

When the last maddog disappears from the US I will no longer fly. As much as I love aviation ... it's cable-drive surfaces for me (only). The newfangled stuff is better suited for newfangled passengers.
 
coolian2
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RE: When Will DL Begin To Retire The M88?

Mon Dec 28, 2015 4:54 am

Quoting md80fanatic (Reply 46):

How the hell do you handle last minute equipment swaps now?
Q300/ATR72-600/737-200/-300/-400/-700/-800/A320/767-200/-300/757-200/777-300ER/
747-200/-300/-400/ER/A340-300/A380-800/MD-83/-88/CRJ-700/-900
 
DeltaMD95
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RE: When Will DL Begin To Retire The M88?

Mon Dec 28, 2015 5:09 am

Quoting md80fanatic (Reply 46):

I know where you're coming from. I will honestly lose my interest in aviation once the final MDs are gone in the US. Spotting the occasional widebody or 757 (if they're still around) will still be nice. But the passion for following this industry and booking flights will be gone. Hobby retired.
Did you know that a Boeing 717-200 is really a McDonnell Douglas MD95-30? ;-)
 
md80fanatic
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RE: When Will DL Begin To Retire The M88?

Mon Dec 28, 2015 5:49 am

I only fly about 1 time every 3 years or so ... and I have never confronted that sitaution, If I did. would request another flight. My schedule is extremely flexible.

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Blimps / Airships Everything from the Goodyear blimp to the Zeppelin

Night Photos Beautiful shots taken while the sun is below the horizon

Accidents Accident, incident and crash related photos

Air to Air Photos taken by airborne photographers of airborne aircraft

Special Paint Schemes Aircraft painted in beautiful and original liveries

Airport Overviews Airport overviews from the air or ground

Tails and Winglets Tail and Winglet closeups with beautiful airline logos