VC10er
Topic Author
Posts: 4197
Joined: Tue Feb 20, 2007 6:25 am

Hawaiian 717's

Sat Dec 26, 2015 10:57 pm

Aloha,

The past few weeks I have been island hopping in Hawaii and have been on 3 Hawaiian 717's, and I bought my way into F even though the flights are short. I love those 717's and just by looking at them at the gate and their interiors, one would think they just arrived from the factory. Hawaiian seems to keep them in pristine shape. I also love the way they fly.

How did Hawaiian come to decide on the 717 over any other single aisle type? And generally, how old are they? How do they perform against the A320 family or 737 family?

I could convince myself to make it my favorite single aisle!

Mahalo!
To Most the Sky is The Limit, For me, the Sky is Home.
 
JetBlueGuy2006
Posts: 1482
Joined: Wed Jan 11, 2006 5:38 am

RE: Hawaiian 717's

Sat Dec 26, 2015 11:09 pm

Quoting VC10er (Thread starter):
How did Hawaiian come to decide on the 717 over any other single aisle type? And generally, how old are they? How do they perform against the A320 family or 737 family?

I think part of it, which others can correct me if I am wrong, is how the 717 performs with the short flight times and total cycles.
Home Airport: Capital Region International Airport (KLAN)
 
Viscount724
Posts: 19316
Joined: Thu Oct 12, 2006 7:32 pm

RE: Hawaiian 717's

Sat Dec 26, 2015 11:26 pm

Quoting VC10er (Thread starter):
And generally, how old are they?

Oldest a little over 16 years old (built 1998) and youngest about 10 years old (built 2005). The oldest and newest were acquired used. Those delivered new to HA were all delivered in 2001 according to Airfleets.net.

Quoting JetBlueGuy2006 (Reply 1):
Quoting VC10er (Thread starter):
How did Hawaiian come to decide on the 717 over any other single aisle type? And generally, how old are they? How do they perform against the A320 family or 737 family?

I think part of it, which others can correct me if I am wrong, is how the 717 performs with the short flight times and total cycles.

Lighter weight reduces costs (landing fees etc.) and the much shorter range of the 717 compared to the A320 and 737 families are more than enough for HA's very shorthaul inter-island network. I've also read that the CFM56 engine on the 737 and many A320s don't like the very short frequent cycles.

HA also has a very long history of DC-9 and MD-80 operations on those routes which I expect influenced their decision.
 
User avatar
Mortyman
Posts: 5734
Joined: Sat Aug 12, 2006 8:26 pm

RE: Hawaiian 717's

Sat Dec 26, 2015 11:32 pm

But why not Bombardier or Embraer ?
 
User avatar
nikeson13
Posts: 221
Joined: Mon Dec 05, 2011 5:35 am

RE: Hawaiian 717's

Sat Dec 26, 2015 11:45 pm

The twin BR715 turbofans on the 717s are very rugged and can handle a lot of stress as well as heat for short periods of time. But the CFM56, CF34(Embraer/crj), and other comparable engines like longer flights where the speeds and heat are lower, not the quick ascents and descents that HA does with their 717s. Aloha found out the hard way with their 733s and 734s on inter island flights, with the engines melting because of the stress and thus they got rid of them and flew the 732s till their fall.

I think thats a good summary but if not theres another thread we had not too long ago that i can't find ATM, hope that helps.
Nikolas
 
User avatar
MD80
Posts: 754
Joined: Sun Feb 16, 2014 3:29 pm

RE: Hawaiian 717's

Sat Dec 26, 2015 11:58 pm

Quoting VC10er (Thread starter):
How did Hawaiian come to decide on the 717 over any other single aisle type?

As member "Viscount724" wrote, Hawaiian has a long history of operating the Douglas DC-9 and MD-80 prior to their decision to take up to 20 Boeing 717s (13 firm orders + seven options). I think that the DC-9 clearly showed their ability to operate the inter-island schedule with high reliability as well as profitable. The Boeing 717 was designed for exactly these short haul missions currently done by Hawaiian Airlines.

Thus, Hawaiian were one of many logical customers for the MD-95/Boeing 717 and the airline were one of many airlines who were pleased with the quality, durability and relibaility of their Douglas-jetliners. It´s interesting to note that the letter of intent for the 20 Boeing 717s was signed and additional potential orders were in the pipeline at the sam time, including a major prospect for approx. or up to 40 Boeing 717s for British Airways and for approx. ten Boeing 717s for Vanguard Airlines! Aeromexico were also mentioned as a potential customer to replace their DC-9s.

In 1999, there were high hopes to get many additional orders and Boeing officially stated to clinch at least 1,000 sales in the category of the Boeing 717/737-600.
Dedicated to the MD-80, MD-90, MD-95, and DC-9: www.MD-80.com
 
User avatar
gatibosgru
Posts: 1662
Joined: Thu Oct 18, 2007 2:48 pm

RE: Hawaiian 717's

Sun Dec 27, 2015 12:04 am

Wonder what they'll eventually replace the 717's with...
@DadCelo
 
penguinflies
Posts: 936
Joined: Thu Apr 06, 2000 12:00 pm

RE: Hawaiian 717's

Sun Dec 27, 2015 12:37 am

Quoting VC10er (Thread starter):
I love those 717's and just by looking at them at the gate and their interiors, one would think they just arrived from the factory.

HALFA or HAL might be able to confirm as I havent ridden on a HA 717 since 2014, but I believe the entire 717 fleet's interiors were standardized and refreshed in 2015.
 
Viscount724
Posts: 19316
Joined: Thu Oct 12, 2006 7:32 pm

RE: Hawaiian 717's

Sun Dec 27, 2015 1:51 am

Quoting Mortyman (Reply 3):
But why not Bombardier or Embraer ?

I would guess because they're too small. HA 717s have 123 seats including 8 F class. Many interisland passengers are connecting with longhaul flights to/from Japan, Korea, mainland US and Canada and those passengers, especially those from Asia, often have a lot of baggage which regional jets may not be able to accommodate.

Lower deck cargo/baggage capacity:
717 - 935 cu. ft., 26.5 cu. m.
CRJ900 - 594 cu. ft., 16.8 cu. m.
CRJ1000 - 683 cu. ft. 19.4 cu. m.
E190 - 799 cu. ft., 22.6 cu. m.
E195 - 906 cu. ft., 25.7 cu. m

Only the E195 comes close but it's also a couple of feet longer and has slightly greater wingspan than the 717. I don't believe the E195 has ever been operated by a customer in North America. I suppose the new E195-E2 which has been stretched about 9 ft. over the current E195 could be an option should HA decide to replace the 717s as it should have comparable capacity, but it's also 12 ft. longer than the 717.

Overhead bins are also larger on the 717 due to the wider 5-abreast fuselage.
 
User avatar
ADent
Posts: 1043
Joined: Fri Dec 22, 2006 12:11 pm

RE: Hawaiian 717's

Sun Dec 27, 2015 1:53 am

Quoting VC10er (Thread starter):

How did Hawaiian come to decide on the 717 over any other single aisle type? And generally, how old are they? How do they perform against the A320 family or 737 family?

They actually flew a CFM powered 737-400 and it did not go to their liking. 737-700 went the same.

Here a few threads I found discussing the subject on how 737s and CFM engines are not suitable for inter-island use. The IAE engines, an option on the A32x are reportedly to suffer the same problems.

Reply 20 and 66 on the last thread has a bit of insight.


Why No NG Boeing 737's Flying HI Inter-island? (by Valorien Jul 17 2012 in Tech Ops)

The CFM56 And Hawaii Interisland Flights (by HNLPointShoot Jun 17 2010 in Tech Ops)

Aloha Airlines "new" 737-200's? (by JayDavis Mar 22 2006 in Civil Aviation)
 
User avatar
HA_DC9
Posts: 570
Joined: Thu Jul 15, 1999 3:16 pm

RE: Hawaiian 717's

Sun Dec 27, 2015 2:08 am

HA replaced the interiors of the 717s this year (and IIRC are almost done with the entire fleet). The carpets were replaced, new bulkheads and new slimline Y seats (similar or sames as that being introduced by F9). The F class seats are being refurbished and re-upholstered.

As part of the new interiors, the seat count for all their 717s is being standardized to 128 seats (8F, 120Y). Before this refurbishment, HA had two 717 configurations: 123 seat standard config (8F, 115Y) and 118 non-standard config (8F, 110Y). The 123 seat config is the original HA configuration that HA used when they introduced the 717. Seven aircraft were acquired later from other lessors/airlines and came with either a front lavatory on the left side and large galley on the right side or both front lavatory and large galley. HA's 123 seat configuration never had galleys and/or lavatories up front because they didn't need them for the short interisland flights. IIRC at least one of the seven 717s introduced later originally flew with HA as part of the original fleet but was returned to the lessor as part of HA's bankruptcy and ended up with FL before returning to HA. Because of the front galley and/or lavatory in these seven aircraft, HA could only fit 118 seats and thus the second configuration.

These seven aircraft came at a time when HA needed interisland capacity fast after the AQ shutdown and had to get them into service as fast as possible so they only changed the livery, carpet and seat covers. So up until this interior modernization, even the seats themselves were different depending on the history of that particular aircraft whether it is an original HA 717 or second hand HA 717 that flew for FL, YX, QantasLink or Mexicana Click previously.
 
rbavfan
Posts: 3419
Joined: Fri Apr 17, 2015 5:53 am

RE: Hawaiian 717's

Sun Dec 27, 2015 2:27 am

Quoting Viscount724 (Reply 2):
I've also read that the CFM56 engine on the 737 and many A320s don't like the very short frequent cycles.

The short flights and quick turn around combined with the humidity levels in Hawaii do not allow the CFM's to cool enough between flights. They would have to add frames to make up for letting them sit between flights longer. Increaseing cost. Thats the problem Aloha had with the 737-700 series. The larger fan engines cool different that the JT8D on the old 737-200 & DC-9's or the BR715 on the 717's. thats why Aloha kept 737-200's and see the 700 on Mainland services.
 
xdlx
Posts: 945
Joined: Mon Aug 04, 2008 12:29 pm

RE: Hawaiian 717's

Sun Dec 27, 2015 2:40 am

IIRC the 120k cycles was a main driver in the decision.
 
cschleic
Posts: 1741
Joined: Sat Feb 16, 2002 10:47 pm

RE: Hawaiian 717's

Sun Dec 27, 2015 4:34 am

Quoting ADent (Reply 9):
Here a few threads I found discussing the subject on how 737s and CFM engines are not suitable for inter-island use. The IAE engines, an option on the A32x are reportedly to suffer the same problems.

There also was an Aviation Week article a few years ago about this. IIRC, it included an interview with the CEO. The problem they'll face when the 717s must be retired was discussed, with the engines being a prime issue. As noted above, the engines and DC-9 based fuselage are uniquely suited to the environment. Other engines aren't.
 
VC10er
Topic Author
Posts: 4197
Joined: Tue Feb 20, 2007 6:25 am

RE: Hawaiian 717's

Sun Dec 27, 2015 7:03 am

Wow, thanks for all this.

One thing that was so strange to me was that we were in F on each segment, 3 flights on the 717 and ALL 3 flights had very attractive F seats, brand new looking, but each seat (each 6) made a HORRIBLE squeak on reclining. They are comfortable but need a squirt of WD-40 bad!
To Most the Sky is The Limit, For me, the Sky is Home.
 
covert
Posts: 1528
Joined: Sun Oct 21, 2001 1:02 am

RE: Hawaiian 717's

Sun Dec 27, 2015 10:29 am

Quoting xdlx (Reply 12):

I don't have much insight into this matter, but I have a feeling that design cycle limits of the fuselage played the major part of this decision, with the engine cooling situation perhaps being second.

Recall the Aloha Airlines explosive decompression incident and the impact it had on airframe structural fatigue awareness. The aircraft involved was a 737.
none
 
wjcandee
Posts: 8232
Joined: Mon Jun 05, 2000 12:50 am

RE: Hawaiian 717's

Sun Dec 27, 2015 12:22 pm

Quoting covert (Reply 16):
I don't have much insight into this matter, but I have a feeling that design cycle limits of the fuselage played the major part of this decision, with the engine cooling situation perhaps being second.

Recall the Aloha Airlines explosive decompression incident and the impact it had on airframe structural fatigue awareness. The aircraft involved was a 737.

For what it's worth, it was indeed the engine issue. Neither the 737 Classic nor the 737NG engines could stand the heat buildup from the quick turns, short flights, low altitudes and multiple takeoffs and thrust reversals in a compressed period. They needed more time to cool off between landing and takeoffs. The BR715, as it turned out, could handle them, as could the JT8D on the DC9s and the MD80s, and, hence, on the 737-200.

It wasn't the cycle issue, because Aloha went BACK to the 737-200s for interisland flights when the newer engines couldn't handle the heat.
 
User avatar
Mortyman
Posts: 5734
Joined: Sat Aug 12, 2006 8:26 pm

RE: Hawaiian 717's

Sun Dec 27, 2015 12:31 pm

How short flights and how quick turn arounds are we talking about ?
 
bjorn14
Posts: 3595
Joined: Sat Feb 27, 2010 2:11 pm

RE: Hawaiian 717's

Sun Dec 27, 2015 12:57 pm

Quoting Mortyman (Reply 18):

About a half hour flight time and half hour turn time. I also believe they only get to about 25,000ft. cruise.

I am hoping the E2s or CS100 can fill the retirement gap.
"I want to know the voice of God the rest is just details" --A. Einstein
 
warren747sp
Posts: 988
Joined: Sat Feb 21, 2004 7:51 am

RE: Hawaiian 717's

Sun Dec 27, 2015 2:30 pm

What happened to the last batch of NWA DC-9-40 maybe they can refurbish those to last another 15 years easy!!
747SP
 
User avatar
Tomassjc
Posts: 722
Joined: Wed Jan 27, 2010 6:38 pm

RE: Hawaiian 717's

Sun Dec 27, 2015 4:12 pm

A lot of good discussion going on via another thread earlier this month as well:

HA Eyes Additional 717 Planes (by KarelXWB Dec 9 2015 in Civil Aviation)

Tomas SJC
When once you have tasted flight, you will forever walk the Earth with your eyes turned skyward -Leonardo DaVinci
 
covert
Posts: 1528
Joined: Sun Oct 21, 2001 1:02 am

RE: Hawaiian 717's

Sun Dec 27, 2015 5:37 pm

Quoting wjcandee (Reply 17):

Fair enough, but the DC-9 (and by extension, MD-95/717-200) is definitely rated for many more cycles than most aircraft in service out there. Even the 737 ended up being further cycle limited by the FAA after that decompression incident.

[Edited 2015-12-27 09:38:15]
none
 
User avatar
BasilFawlty
Posts: 915
Joined: Fri Jun 05, 2009 11:23 am

RE: Hawaiian 717's

Sun Dec 27, 2015 10:18 pm

Quoting Mortyman (Reply 3):
But why not Bombardier or Embraer ?

Most likely because the CRJ900 is too small, the CRJ1000 didn't exist when they ordered their 717's, and neither did the E190/E195.
'Every year donkeys and mules kill more people than plane crashes'
 
georgiabill
Posts: 1222
Joined: Sat Mar 01, 2003 11:53 pm

RE: Hawaiian 717's

Sun Dec 27, 2015 10:43 pm

Not to nit pick. I thought the 717's replaced HA'S DC9-50'S fleet? How many MD-80'S did HA operate?
 
Viscount724
Posts: 19316
Joined: Thu Oct 12, 2006 7:32 pm

RE: Hawaiian 717's

Sun Dec 27, 2015 10:45 pm

Quoting bjorn14 (Reply 19):
Quoting Mortyman (Reply 18):

About a half hour flight time and half hour turn time.

Current HA 717 routes, shortest to longest. HNL-OGG the busiest with about 24 daily 717s in each direction.

OGG-KOA 73 nm
HNL-OGG 87 nm
HNL-LIH 89 nm
OGG-ITO 105 nm
HNL-KOA 142 nm
LIH-OGG 175 nm
HNL-ITO 188 nm

At one time, before Aloha's demise, HNL-OGG was the highest frequency airport pair in the U.S. Probably still ranks near the top with about 33 daily each way, including Island Air's ATR-72s.
 
DfwRevolution
Posts: 9282
Joined: Sat Jan 09, 2010 7:31 pm

RE: Hawaiian 717's

Sun Dec 27, 2015 11:05 pm

We've heard about the CFM56's heat issues for years, but even on the Tech/Ops board I've never seen the specific issue. Is it a matter of lube oil temperature? Thermal growth? Creep? All of the above?
I have a three post per topic limit. You're welcome to have the last word.
 
VC10er
Topic Author
Posts: 4197
Joined: Tue Feb 20, 2007 6:25 am

RE: Hawaiian 717's

Mon Dec 28, 2015 12:11 am

Pardon my ignorance, who made the JT8D and BR715 engines? And, I'm going to assume they are no longer made???

Another question; these birds of a feather have been around most of my life, as a kid in the '70's, I used to divide them into two buckets 3 engines and 2 engines (3 were 727's, which at 13 years old I much preferred because it looked "cooler" as did my VC10!)

How well did the DC/MD and 717 permutations stand up to the 727 in performance and sales?
To Most the Sky is The Limit, For me, the Sky is Home.
 
wjcandee
Posts: 8232
Joined: Mon Jun 05, 2000 12:50 am

RE: Hawaiian 717's

Mon Dec 28, 2015 12:26 am

Quoting VC10er (Reply 27):
who made the JT8D and BR715 engines? And, I'm going to assume they are no longer made???

BR715 is the engine used on the 717. It is still being made. It was developed by a joint venture between BMW and RR. RR later bought out BMW. The company that makes them is German, and now called Rolls-Royce Deutschland GmBH. The BR710 and BR725 are all part of the same family. Basically, they power the 717 and a number of bizjets, including the G-V and the G650 and Bombardier Global Express. It's a Stage 4 engine. Quiet.

JT8D is made by Pratt. It basically ended production by 2000. However, they started making them again in 2011 in small volume for military re-engining programs (J-STARS, for example). Don't know if they made any more after 2011. It is a very-widely-used engine, in its original config and then in the later, quieter, cleaner, more-efficient -200 series. Powered the DC9, 727, 737, and the -200 powered the MD80 series, among others.

This is a very, very limited summary of a very big topic.

[Edited 2015-12-27 16:28:25]
 
Viscount724
Posts: 19316
Joined: Thu Oct 12, 2006 7:32 pm

RE: Hawaiian 717's

Mon Dec 28, 2015 12:46 am

Quoting VC10er (Reply 27):
Pardon my ignorance, who made the JT8D and BR715 engines? And, I'm going to assume they are no longer made???

JT8D - Pratt & Whitney, first introduced on the 727 in 1963.

BR715 - developed by a joint venture between BMW and Rolls-Royce. R-R later took over the entire project. Versions of the BR700 series are still in production for various models of Gulfstream and Bombardier long-range business jets (Gulfstream 500/550/650 and Bombardier Global 5000/6000).
 
User avatar
Revelation
Posts: 22243
Joined: Wed Feb 09, 2005 9:37 pm

RE: Hawaiian 717's

Mon Dec 28, 2015 2:39 am

Quoting DfwRevolution (Reply 26):
We've heard about the CFM56's heat issues for years, but even on the Tech/Ops board I've never seen the specific issue. Is it a matter of lube oil temperature? Thermal growth? Creep? All of the above?

I was wondering the same.

Sounds similar to the current issue with PW 1100G where after use the top half of the engine is hotter than the bottom (because of course heat rises) which causes a small 'bend' to the shaft. If you run the engine in this state, parts rub and wear out faster.

However I don't know if this is the issue with the CFM-56s.
Wake up to find out that you are the eyes of the world
The heart has its beaches, its homeland and thoughts of its own
Wake now, discover that you are the song that the morning brings
The heart has its seasons, its evenings and songs of its own
 
ridgid727
Posts: 1081
Joined: Thu Jul 24, 2008 1:58 am

RE: Hawaiian 717's

Mon Dec 28, 2015 2:52 am

Republic operating as Mokulele operated E75's for a while, in addition to Mesa's Crj's. on interisland flights. Anyone know how those E75's performed for the short while they were there? I flew on several that never had more than 15 pax on at a time.
 
ha763
Posts: 3201
Joined: Mon Jan 06, 2003 5:36 pm

RE: Hawaiian 717's

Mon Dec 28, 2015 3:13 am

Quoting VC10er (Thread starter):
How did Hawaiian come to decide on the 717 over any other single aisle type?

I may have posted this before, but this is a summary of the employee newsletter explaining the decision.

Hawaiian was looking at 4 choices:
Extend the life of the existing DC-9-50 fleet
Replace with younger DC-9-50s
Replace with MD-82/83s
Replace with new aircraft

1-3 were not desirable due to several reliability, cost, and revenue factors. They were also all short-term solutions. Hawaiian ended up going for new aircraft. By going for new aircraft, it would mean better reliability, lower operating costs, possible revenue increases, and a long-term solution.

For the new aircraft, Hawaiian was looking at:
A318
737-700
717

The A318, it was expensive, too heavy, and not available for delivery until 2004.
The 737-700, designed for more range than needed, not compatible with DC-9 operations, engine issues on ultra-short flights.
The 717 was compatible with DC-9 operations, deemed to have the best efficiency and economics, and best engine to handle the ultra-short flights.

Hawaiian ordered the 717 in 1999. However, the process started 2 years earlier. There was no offering from Bombardier or Embraer at the time that would meet Hawaiian capacity needs.
 
flightsimer
Posts: 1052
Joined: Mon Aug 17, 2009 5:34 am

RE: Hawaiian 717's

Mon Dec 28, 2015 4:14 am

I am currently in Hawaii now for the first time, though I leave tomorrow... But me and my brother hopped over to Kauai for a few days so we took Hawaiian as Mokulele doesn't serve Kauai.

Quoting Mortyman (Reply 17):

How short flights and how quick turn arounds are we talking about ?

Our flight to Kauai was 88nm, only took a mere 20 minutes enroute and no more than 30-35 from gate to gate due to the taxi from HNL. Our cruise speed was 350kts over the ground.

Quoting bjorn14 (Reply 18):

About a half hour flight time and half hour turn time. I also believe they only get to about 25,000ft. cruise.
I am hoping the E2s or CS100 can fill the retirement gap.

Hell my two flights to/from Kauai only got up to 12,000ft and 13,000ft respectively. They were still finishing collecting the empty juice/water cups at 5,000ft. I was highly surprised when they began the inflight service as I was not expecting any on such a short flight.
Commercial / Airline Pilot
 
rbavfan
Posts: 3419
Joined: Fri Apr 17, 2015 5:53 am

RE: Hawaiian 717's

Mon Dec 28, 2015 4:20 am

Quoting Mortyman (Reply 17):
How short flights and how quick turn arounds are we talking about ?

Some flights just make 20000 ft before decent. CFM56 & V2500 use the longer time at higher altitude to to cool the engine internals. Going only to 20000 ft and immediate drop does not allow enough cool down after T-O and as such they would have to site at the airport and do every other flight or would not last long. If I remember right aloha would have to increase the fleet by 1/3rd to have kept the same schedule niter island because of this.

As the CF34-10 on the E190/195 is based on the CFM56-5 core I'm betting it has the same issues. Most RJ's sit longer at the gate than Hawaiians would so its not an issue at say LAX where a lot of times wasted sitting taxi, idle or gates at the airport.
 
DeltaMD95
Posts: 512
Joined: Sun Aug 24, 2014 5:37 am

RE: Hawaiian 717's

Mon Dec 28, 2015 4:51 am

Quoting MD80 (Reply 5):
Hawaiian has a long history of operating the Douglas DC-9 and MD-80 prior to their decision to take up to 20 Boeing 717s (13 firm orders + seven options)

Why did HA not exercise all of their options while they had the chance? That would have pushed production beyond 160.

Quoting covert (Reply 15):
Recall the Aloha Airlines explosive decompression incident and the impact it had on airframe structural fatigue awareness. The aircraft involved was a 737.

   I doubt this incident would have been as likely to happen had Aloha been operating DC-9s.

Quoting ha763 (Reply 31):
Hawaiian ordered the 717 in 1999. However, the process started 2 years earlier

It's too bad the process did not start a little earlier than that. Clearly HA were an MD95 order waiting to happen.
Did you know that a Boeing 717-200 is really a McDonnell Douglas MD95-30? ;-)
 
md80fanatic
Posts: 2365
Joined: Tue Apr 13, 2004 11:29 pm

RE: Hawaiian 717's

Mon Dec 28, 2015 5:58 am

i had my first MD95 flight last weekend (PIT to ATL) and absolutely loved it.
 
HAL
Posts: 1773
Joined: Tue Jan 15, 2002 1:38 am

RE: Hawaiian 717's

Mon Dec 28, 2015 7:38 am

Quoting DeltaMD95 (Reply 34):
Why did HA not exercise all of their options while they had the chance? That would have pushed production beyond 160.

Because HA went into bankruptcy in February 2003, and growth stopped for several years while they sorted out their finances. A couple of their original 717s were returned to the lessor (and later came back to HA), so they weren't really in the expansion mode in the early 2000s.

HAL
One smooth landing is skill. Two in a row is luck. Three in a row and someone is lying.
 
MavyWavyATR
Posts: 191
Joined: Wed Dec 31, 2014 10:52 pm

RE: Hawaiian 717's

Mon Dec 28, 2015 5:30 pm

Quoting warren747sp (Reply 20):
What happened to the last batch of NWA DC-9-40 maybe they can refurbish those to last another 15 years easy!!

Those are most likely timed out and the majority of their critical parts may have been stripped by now.

Quoting DeltaMD95 (Reply 34):
Why did HA not exercise all of their options while they had the chance? That would have pushed production beyond 160.

The reason why is because things were different around the time that order was placed. To name a few:

1. The economy was down the toilet (especially after 9/11 happened).
2. Passenger demand dropped dramatically (again, after 9/11).
3. AQ was still in business.
4. HA itself was bankrupt.

Quoting VC10er (Thread starter):
How did Hawaiian come to decide on the 717 over any other single aisle type?

It's mainly because the 717 was designed exactly for their type of operation (High cycles, short turnaround). Also, the aircraft actually holds the same type rating as the DC-9; thus leading to minimal costs for crew training (only requiring difference).

Quoting VC10er (Thread starter):
How do they perform against the A320 family or 737 family?

All I can say is, the 717 actually leaves those two (save for the -200 variant of the 737) in the dust in regards to reliability and performance in HA Inter-Island ops. The BR715, unlike the CFM56 & V2500, was constructed and designed to handle the abuse of rapid turnarounds without significant cooling time.

Quoting VC10er (Thread starter):
And generally, how old are they?

HA's 717 fleet has an average age of 14.2 years; according to Planespotters.net
 
bjorn14
Posts: 3595
Joined: Sat Feb 27, 2010 2:11 pm

RE: Hawaiian 717's

Mon Dec 28, 2015 7:30 pm

Quoting Viscount724 (Reply 24):

The longest possible inter-island route would be ITO-HNL at a mere 273 nm.

I have to wonder if HA started Ohana to begin to condition Hawai'ians for the day they won't have inter-island jet service? There will always be turboprops to handle the routes economically not so sure about jets.
"I want to know the voice of God the rest is just details" --A. Einstein
 
Viscount724
Posts: 19316
Joined: Thu Oct 12, 2006 7:32 pm

RE: Hawaiian 717's

Mon Dec 28, 2015 8:02 pm

Quoting bjorn14 (Reply 38):
Quoting Viscount724 (Reply 24):


The longest possible inter-island route would be ITO-HNL at a mere 273 nm.

Assume you mean ITO-LIH. As mentioned in Reply 24, ITO-HNL is 188 nm.
 
User avatar
NWAROOSTER
Posts: 1250
Joined: Mon Feb 14, 2005 2:29 pm

RE: Hawaiian 717's

Mon Dec 28, 2015 8:05 pm

Quoting bjorn14 (Reply 38):
There will always be turboprops to handle the routes economically not so sure about jets.

If a 717 replacement does not become readily available, Hawaiian will have to start flying their inter island flights with turboprops.
Northwest Airlines back in the early seventies used to fly both jets and the Lockheed L-188 between MSP and ORD and it only took about an extra 15 minutes to complete the flight. They even charged about five dollars less for flights using the L-188.
Flying a turboprop beats taking the ferry between islands.   

[Edited 2015-12-28 12:06:19]
Procrastination Is The Theft Of Time.......
 
seat1a
Posts: 525
Joined: Mon Jan 11, 2010 7:52 pm

RE: Hawaiian 717's

Mon Dec 28, 2015 8:12 pm

Quoting bjorn14 (Reply 38):

I was wondering the same thing about the Ohana ATRs. Are these aircraft used for growth purposes and providing additional lift/frequency? Is there room for another player, i.e., new Aloha with 717s?

Thanks.
 
flightsimer
Posts: 1052
Joined: Mon Aug 17, 2009 5:34 am

RE: Hawaiian 717's

Tue Dec 29, 2015 4:22 am

Quoting seat1a (Reply 41):

And what 717's would a new aloha use? All of the existing 717's are or will be flying with Delta or Hawaiian within a few years...
Commercial / Airline Pilot
 
F9Animal
Posts: 4263
Joined: Thu Dec 16, 2004 7:13 am

RE: Hawaiian 717's

Tue Dec 29, 2015 8:13 am

I am sure there is talk at the executive level about eventual replacement of the 717. If anything, I am sure the airline is looking at the economics of the Embraer and Bombardier. I wouldn't be surprised if they haven't looked at the MRJ too. It isn't a matter of if, it is a matter of when HA decides to start shopping. For now, they have the perfect recipe to make money, and do what they do best.
I Am A Different Animal!!
 
User avatar
vhqpa
Posts: 1666
Joined: Mon Jul 04, 2005 8:21 pm

RE: Hawaiian 717's

Tue Dec 29, 2015 11:54 am

Quoting warren747sp (Reply 19):
What happened to the last batch of NWA DC-9-40 maybe they can refurbish those to last another 15 years easy!!

Interestingly enough I had a look at the DC-9 production list the other day I didn't check the frames retired pre merger but between the -30, -41 and -51 series Delta retired quite a few around the 90k hours, 80k cycles mark (Not all some were flown right up to 110k). But assuming the average HA 717 does say 16 hrs, 18 cycles a day (I don't know how accurate this is. Please correct me if you know better) and Boeing lists the DC-9 LOV as 110k hours/110k cycles then assuming the DC-9s were stored in a flight ready state (Highly Doubtful) then theoretically for each DC-9 they can pull from the desert with 90k/80k should last them for about 3 years before they time out. In the meantime they can park a 717 to prolong it's life for another 3 years. Ideally the DC-9-41 should suit them the most as it's the closest in size to a 717.

Does anyone know how well the JT8D-200 performs interisland? Considering HA only flew the MD-80 breifly in the 80s I'm guessing not as well as its predecessor. But does anyone know if this was engine related or simply too much capacity for their needs.

Realistically though unless a new engine comes along in the next 15 years or so that suits their operation they might be stuck ordering something along the lines of a Embraer E2 or Bombardier C Series or something similar from the next generation. Obviously they'd have to increase the turn around times sacrificing the utilisation they get now.


A couple of people mentioned turboprops. I think the biggest problem with current turboprops is they don't have enough cargo capacity especially for large pieces (think surfboards). If their were to be a large turboprop with underfloor cargo something like a modern day L.188 Electra this could be a perfect plane for them.
"There you go ladies and gentleman we're through Mach 1 the speed of sound no bumps no bangs... CONCORDE"
 
User avatar
United_fan
Posts: 6687
Joined: Fri Nov 24, 2000 11:11 am

RE: Hawaiian 717's

Tue Dec 29, 2015 11:57 am

AH Cargo uses 737-300's as well,now . But they must sit long enough to cool between flights.
"Suspicion is a matter of opinion"
 
rbavfan
Posts: 3419
Joined: Fri Apr 17, 2015 5:53 am

RE: Hawaiian 717's

Tue Dec 29, 2015 12:46 pm

Quoting MavyWavyATR (Reply 37):
HA's 717 fleet has an average age of 14.2 years; according to Planespotters.net

Yes but they are averaging 11 flights a day vs around 5-6 on most airlines. So they are eating up cycles around twice as fast as Delta. Resulting in more wear and tear due to ops in Hawaii.
 
b747400erf
Posts: 3135
Joined: Wed Jun 19, 2013 4:33 am

RE: Hawaiian 717's

Tue Dec 29, 2015 2:34 pm

Quoting United_fan (Reply 45):
AH Cargo uses 737-300's as well,now . But they must sit long enough to cool between flights.

They have 732's do they also have to wait to turnaround?
 
bjorn14
Posts: 3595
Joined: Sat Feb 27, 2010 2:11 pm

RE: Hawaiian 717's

Tue Dec 29, 2015 3:26 pm

To Viscount....

You are absolutely correct. I did mean ITO-LIH. So that still only means about an hour in a turboprop to get across the the entire state.
"I want to know the voice of God the rest is just details" --A. Einstein
 
aztrainer
Posts: 713
Joined: Thu Oct 13, 2011 2:17 pm

RE: Hawaiian 717's

Tue Dec 29, 2015 4:00 pm

Quoting United_fan (Reply 45):
AH Cargo uses 737-300's as well,now . But they must sit long enough to cool between flights.

Yes, their turn times are around an hour. My last few flights on HA 712 they deplane, wait about five minutes and then start boarding the next flight. KOA is a great place to watch the turns.

Quoting B747400ERF (Reply 47):
They have 732's do they also have to wait to turnaround?

Aloha Air Cargo's aircraft fleet consists of two (2) Boeing 737-200 freighters, two (2) Boeing 737-300 freighters, and three (3) Saab 340A Turboprops. (Via Aloha Air Cargo's website)

Popular Searches On Airliners.net

Top Photos of Last:   24 Hours  •  48 Hours  •  7 Days  •  30 Days  •  180 Days  •  365 Days  •  All Time

Military Aircraft Every type from fighters to helicopters from air forces around the globe

Classic Airliners Props and jets from the good old days

Flight Decks Views from inside the cockpit

Aircraft Cabins Passenger cabin shots showing seat arrangements as well as cargo aircraft interior

Cargo Aircraft Pictures of great freighter aircraft

Government Aircraft Aircraft flying government officials

Helicopters Our large helicopter section. Both military and civil versions

Blimps / Airships Everything from the Goodyear blimp to the Zeppelin

Night Photos Beautiful shots taken while the sun is below the horizon

Accidents Accident, incident and crash related photos

Air to Air Photos taken by airborne photographers of airborne aircraft

Special Paint Schemes Aircraft painted in beautiful and original liveries

Airport Overviews Airport overviews from the air or ground

Tails and Winglets Tail and Winglet closeups with beautiful airline logos