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nitepilot79
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20 Hours MIA To LAX On AA--Engine Trouble

Sun Dec 27, 2015 12:07 am

Boy, I feel bad for the people on this flight. American took 20 hours to resolve the issue. Yes, it is the Christmas time rush, but 20 hours seems abnormal given the circumstances in this case (close to Dallas, AA has a huge fleet) but I'm no expert:

http://gma.yahoo.com/video/cross-cou...istmas-flight-turns-141431820.html

Article quote:

"Typically five-hour flight between Miami and Los Angeles became 20 hours after engine troubles forced a landing in Texas."
 
SFOThinker
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RE: 20 Hours MIA To LAX On AA--Engine Trouble

Sun Dec 27, 2015 12:19 am

The TV news report says passengers claimed they were threatened with removal from the plane while spending 14 hours on the ground in Lubbock if they made videos of their experience. Would any airline actually make such an announcement? It seems like cause for a lawsuit. Not exactly a loyalty builder either.
I am skeptical, but if it is true, somebody at American is an idiot.
 
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777Jet
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RE: 20 Hours MIA To LAX On AA--Engine Trouble

Sun Dec 27, 2015 12:36 am

The video won't play in 'my region', but Lubbock is only about a 1hr flight at most away from the AA DFW mega hub. I'm surprised AA couldn't get a spare aircraft out to take the pax given how close Lubbock is. Unless there are no spare planes or crews because it's the busy season...???

Quoting SFOThinker (Reply 1):
The TV news report says passengers claimed they were threatened with removal from the plane while spending 14 hours on the ground in Lubbock if they made videos of their experience.

If true, even more reason to make a video.

That kind of Nazism is only going to drive more people to local news / social media later on to express their disgust and tell others what went on.
DC10-10/30,MD82/88/90, 717,727,732/3/4/5/7/8/9ER,742/4,752/3,763/ER,772/E/L/3/W,788/9, 306,320,321,332/3,346,359,388
 
Carfield
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RE: 20 Hours MIA To LAX On AA--Engine Trouble

Sun Dec 27, 2015 12:41 am

Wow they really screwed up not only for the delays but also it was a PR nightmare to prohibit passengers from taking photos and videos. I actually wonder if they will follow up by kicking someone out. That situation can easily turn ugly and I feel that flight crews are given too much power. Mechanical happens everyday and safety is always priority. However, there are certain parts of the story that simply don't add up.

Lubbock, while is not a mega airport, is a pretty large regional airport with major flights by AA/WN/UA. American Airlines and American Eagle actually fly to Lubbock multiple times, and I simply don't understand why can't they refuel the plane in Lubbock. Do the A321s require different refueling equipments? I presume that they are already bringing in a new crew when they fly the plane to Lubbock. Their main runway is 11,500ft long and it should be able to handle a heavy A321. The new A321s can carry enough fuel to last them from DFW to Lubbock to LAX. Lubbock to LAX is a shorter flight too. I am actually pretty curious on that decision to go back to DFW before flying to LAX - is it equipment issue? is it crew issue? Lubbock to LA is like a two hours flight. I can understand why the passengers are frustrated.

American Airlines really mishandles this irregular operation and I think an automatic refund of the value of the flight is almost a must... not to mention additional vouchers.

Carfield
 
roseflyer
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RE: 20 Hours MIA To LAX On AA--Engine Trouble

Sun Dec 27, 2015 2:05 am

Overall it looks like thee was some problem with the recovery. AA flew a plane to Lubbock within five hours of the diversion, which is pretty good. That plane spent 6 hours on the ground before leaving and stopping in Dallas for fuel.

Quoting 777Jet (Reply 2):
The video won't play in 'my region', but Lubbock is only about a 1hr flight at most away from the AA DFW mega hub. I'm surprised AA couldn't get a spare aircraft out to take the pax given how close Lubbock is. Unless there are no spare planes or crews because it's the busy season...???

American did fly an A321 to Lubbock from DFW within five hours of the diversion. That airplane stayed in Lubbock for six hours before departing. I wonder if th rescue plane had a mechanical problem and if there was no mechanic licensed for the A321 in Lubbock. I could imagine the airplane flying in and then getting grounded due to a logbook signature. If the airplane stayed too long and there were no FBOs open with the ability to refuel an A321 or if the airplane had a fueling problem, that might explain the DFW fuel stop. Another possible problem is that the fueling people did not know what they were doing since they had never seen an A321 before and messed up and could not get fuel in or damaged the airplane.

Quoting SFOThinker (Reply 1):
The TV news report says passengers claimed they were threatened with removal from the plane while spending 14 hours on the ground in Lubbock if they made videos of their experience. Would any airline actually make such an announcement? It seems like cause for a lawsuit. Not exactly a loyalty builder either.
I am skeptical, but if it is true, somebody at American is an idiot.

From the sound of the interview, people may have been obnoxious about video recording. There are people who will get in the crews face recording on their iPhone saying stupid things like it is their constitutional right to film. I could imagine a case where the crew threatened to kick someone off for being obnoxious.
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MSJYOP28Apilot
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RE: 20 Hours MIA To LAX On AA--Engine Trouble

Sun Dec 27, 2015 4:27 am

Quoting Carfield (Reply 3):
Their main runway is 11,500ft long and it should be able to handle a heavy A321.

Actually that runway isnt that long right now. The 11,500ft runway is a 6400 foot runway right now as just over 5,000 ft are closed for construction. The A321 has poor performance on short runways. The winds that day required the use of that runway. That is why there was a fuel stop in DFW.

[Edited 2015-12-26 20:29:10]
 
OB1504
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RE: 20 Hours MIA To LAX On AA--Engine Trouble

Sun Dec 27, 2015 5:11 am

AA company policy prohibits filming employees and they technically can remove a passenger for failing to comply with this.

Whether or not that's actually a good idea is up for debate.
 
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EA CO AS
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RE: 20 Hours MIA To LAX On AA--Engine Trouble

Sun Dec 27, 2015 8:05 am

Quoting OB1504 (Reply 7):
AA company policy prohibits filming employees and they technically can remove a passenger for failing to comply with this.

  

In other words, removal from the aircraft would be for not complying with crewmember instructions. Perfectly legal.
"In this present crisis, government is not the solution to our problem - government IS the problem." - Ronald Reagan

Comments made here are my own and are not intended to represent the official position of Alaska Air Group
 
Brewfangrb
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RE: 20 Hours MIA To LAX On AA--Engine Trouble

Sun Dec 27, 2015 9:15 am

Quoting EA CO AS (Reply 8):
In other words, removal from the aircraft would be for not complying with crewmember instructions. Perfectly legal.

That's wonderful! You get a federal law that says pax must obey all crewmember instructions and then you create rules that allow crewmembers to do whatever they want, including precluding the ability to prove crewmember violations.

Obnoxious.
 
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mats
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RE: 20 Hours MIA To LAX On AA--Engine Trouble

Sun Dec 27, 2015 5:50 pm

I spent a bit of time Googling the photography question.

There is nothing on the aa.com site, and the online version of American Way magazine does not include inflight information. So American already has a legal problem because the rule is only in fine print somewhere in a magazine. If this is something they plan to enforce, it needs to be a clear message in multiple locations. And it needs to be clear that this is American's policy; they cannot claim a government or "security" regulation.

The next legal problem is that people take photos on airplanes all the time. So it is a cultural norm. Taking a photo of a member of the crew without permission is just like taking a photo of anyone else. It's need not be a special rule, just a matter of courtesy (too bad there are a lot of people who aren't very courteous.)

There were complaints from crews about the former United Airlines safety video because it showed passengers taking photos of a flight attendant on a bus in Las Vegas. It seemed pretty innocuous to me.

Joe Sharkey wrote about it in The New York Times (26 May 2014). He cited the most significant argument: a commercial airliner is not a completely public space even if it seems like one. The plane is the property of American Airlines (or leased by American) so filming on it could be construed as filming on private property without permission.

As I understand it, In an ordinary public place, you can actually take pictures of just about anything, including people. Releases only apply if one is planning to use the image for commercial or advertising purposes. In other words, filming an airline crew member outside of the airplane without his or her permission is rude but it is covered under the First Amendment. But an airplane itself is not completely public; one needs to buy a ticket to board, and the airline can make whatever rules it likes.

My own advice to American as a non-attorney: don't make rules like that; it makes you look bad. Anyone shouting "No pictures! No pictures!" is essentially saying, "I'm doing something I'm not supposed to do" and "If you catch me violating the rules, I'll just retaliate and say that you were violating the rules by taking a picture of me."

American would also be wise to state their rationale for banning photography. The best I can suggest is, "The other passengers and crew onboard deserve your courtesy and thoughtfulness about recordings and photography. If you wish make a recording, video, or photograph of anyone on board, please ask for his or her permission in advance."

In all of its profound stupidity even the TSA expressly permits the use of photography at checkpoints. It is a wise move. As awful as they are, that rule is a way of saying, "We're not trying to hide anything." It always strikes me as smart, particularly since photography is banned at security checkpoints in just about every other country.

Lastly, the passengers probably do not need videos. If they were going to sue American, file a DOT complaint, etc. videos aren't going to be as useful as corroborated testimony. There is no need to take a photo of a crew member's name badge (that was national news about a US Airways gate agent)... US Airways knew who was working at that gate at that time; no photo needed.
 
clrd4t8koff
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RE: 20 Hours MIA To LAX On AA--Engine Trouble

Sun Dec 27, 2015 8:18 pm

I'm a little unclear on the DOT's rule - isn't at the 3-hour mark an airline has to open the front boarding door and let people off? This was 14-hours trapped on the plane at LBB, almost 5x more than the 3-hour rule. What kind of fine will AA incur and what kind of compensation is owed to each passenger?
 
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DocLightning
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RE: 20 Hours MIA To LAX On AA--Engine Trouble

Sun Dec 27, 2015 8:22 pm

Bottom line:

This doesn't make me want to fly the new AA. If an airline with a fleet of ~1000 aircraft can't find some way to move people who are stranded within a few hundred miles of one of their largest hubs in 15 hours, I don't want to use that airline.
-Doc Lightning-

"The sky calls to us. If we do not destroy ourselves, we will one day venture to the stars."
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747megatop
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RE: 20 Hours MIA To LAX On AA--Engine Trouble

Sun Dec 27, 2015 8:23 pm

Quoting Carfield (Reply 3):
but also it was a PR nightmare

Let's say it was a PR nightmare; but do the airlines really care? After all AA is just one of 3 mega carriers; passengers will come anyways!!
Before the mergers, there were more choices at least when CO, US and NW existed in addition to SWA, JetBlue etc. The only thing that will work for airlines is fines (the tarmac delay fines) and/or lawsuits. The airlines don't care much about bad PR i guess.

[Edited 2015-12-27 12:28:27]
 
Skisandy
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RE: 20 Hours MIA To LAX On AA--Engine Trouble

Sun Dec 27, 2015 11:06 pm

What I don't understand is that these delay situations are treated completely different - just because it's a plane.

Imagine Greyhound keeping people on a bus for 20 hours? The police would storm the bus, free the hostages and arrest (maybe kill) the driver or whoever decided to hold the people hostage.

Remember - the plane is on the ground! It is not in the air and we do not need God (ahem - the captain) decide about whether we will live or die.

What's wrong with applying normal laws at least when the plane is on the ground. Holding people hostage against their will is against the law, and the perpetrators should be punished. Start with the captain, and then arrest a few managers at AA headquarters in Dallas, so they get some down time to rewrite their ridiculous policies.

These trapped people are human beings, some sick, some just exhausted, physically and mentally, many extremely stressed to the point of the stress being dangerous to their health... and many here -- just like the AA executives -- think that all that counts is that AA makes a larger profit, to hell with these annoying people.

Am I the only one who has the guts to say that these hostage situations must me outlawed - period!
 
jfkgig
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RE: 20 Hours MIA To LAX On AA--Engine Trouble

Sun Dec 27, 2015 11:27 pm

My own anecdotal experiences on AA in the past 6 months lead me to believe that the airline is having significant operational problems with extremely late or cancelled flights -- which had not been my experience over the past 20 years or so. Last week my JFK-GIG arrived 12 hours late, and I had two other flights on this route simply cancelled in the past few months. Each time AA claimed a maintenance problem, and evidently had no spare capacity to make up for it. Not a random sample to be sure, my own experiences have led me to start looking at other carrier options -- and gutting the AAdvantage program hasn't helped either.
 
MrBuzzcut
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RE: 20 Hours MIA To LAX On AA--Engine Trouble

Mon Dec 28, 2015 12:21 am

I don't at all understand why they needed to keep the pax on board the plane for that long. This wasn't an international flight, so Customs isn't an issue. They knew they'd be needing a new plane to come and pick everyone up, so why in the world wouldn't you let everyone out to wait it out in the terminal?

The airlines really don't seem to get the fact that people do not want to be stuck in a metal tube that isn't going anywhere for the better part of a day. Why is that concept so hard to grasp?
 
jfkgig
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RE: 20 Hours MIA To LAX On AA--Engine Trouble

Mon Dec 28, 2015 12:36 am

Quoting MrBuzzcut (Reply 24):
I don't at all understand why they needed to keep the pax on board the plane for that long. This wasn't an international flight, so Customs isn't an issue. They knew they'd be needing a new plane to come and pick everyone up, so why in the world wouldn't you let everyone out to wait it out in the terminal?

The airlines really don't seem to get the fact that people do not want to be stuck in a metal tube that isn't going anywhere for the better part of a day. Why is that concept so hard to grasp?

Somebody should go to jail for this.
 
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jsnww81
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RE: 20 Hours MIA To LAX On AA--Engine Trouble

Mon Dec 28, 2015 3:37 am

Quoting jfkgig (Reply 23):
My own anecdotal experiences on AA in the past 6 months lead me to believe that the airline is having significant operational problems with extremely late or cancelled flights -- which had not been my experience over the past 20 years or so.

This has been my experience as well. Something is up. Five out of my last six flights on AA have been delayed more than two hours due to maintenance issues.

My LAX-NRT flight last month wound up leaving almost 18 hours late, and all of the passengers had to be accommodated overnight in Los Angeles. When we took off, as a capstone, the IFE aircraft-wide was broken.

I flew LAX-LAS on a three-week-old A321 earlier this month and we made it to the end of the runway before returning to the gate. After an hour we were deplaned, and ended up leaving four hours behind schedule.

Today I flew DFW-LAX on a 787 and we took a five-hour maintenance delay. DFW weather has been terrible yesterday and today, but the airline was very clear the delay was due to maintenance.

AA has been very proactive in doling out bonus miles for the trouble - each time when I landed, the bonus was already deposited in my account - but I'd much rather they do something about their eroding reliability and inability to keep to a schedule. It's starting to feel like it might not be a bunch of isolated incidents anymore.
 
clrd4t8koff
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RE: 20 Hours MIA To LAX On AA--Engine Trouble

Mon Dec 28, 2015 4:13 pm

So what's the next step for any of the passengers who were on this flight - file a claim with the DOT? Hire a lawyer and file a suit directly against AA? What kind of realistic compensation are these passengers looking at?
 
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exFWAOONW
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RE: 20 Hours MIA To LAX On AA--Engine Trouble

Mon Dec 28, 2015 6:25 pm

The linked report in the OP says it was an emergency landing in LBB due to "engine trouble". If an emergency was in fact, declared, I think that changes the situation.

Having lived through these "character building situations"', nothing is as simple as it seems in the airline industry. Getting off the aircraft requires parking at a gate or finding a mobile stair truck. They are not always available at the snap of the customer's finger and their use costs money. Worse, these situations are very fluid as each person/department notified adds a new wrinkle that requires re-notifying the parties previously involved and getting their changes to the situation. (in other words they snowball out of control)

Before I get accused of being an AA apologist, they used to have an ad slogan, "something special in the air." When asked about it I used to reply, "they may be 'something special' in the air, but on the ground, they suck."
Is just me, or is flying not as much fun anymore?
 
jc2354
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RE: 20 Hours MIA To LAX On AA--Engine Trouble

Mon Dec 28, 2015 9:25 pm

Crew duty time has to come in to play somewhere in all this mess.
If not now, then when?
 
KELPkid
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RE: 20 Hours MIA To LAX On AA--Engine Trouble

Mon Dec 28, 2015 11:08 pm

Quoting MSJYOP28Apilot (Reply 5):
Actually that runway isnt that long right now. The 11,500ft runway is a 6400 foot runway right now as just over 5,000 ft are closed for construction. The A321 has poor performance on short runways. The winds that day required the use of that runway. That is why there was a fuel stop in DFW.

Surely they could have made ELP (~30 min. flying time) a little further down route without backtracking?  
Celebrating the birth of KELPkidJR on August 5, 2009 :-)
 
Sooner787
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RE: 20 Hours MIA To LAX On AA--Engine Trouble

Mon Dec 28, 2015 11:18 pm

AA has been a complete mess at DFW the past couple of days with the bad weather
in north Texas as well as elsewhere.

Spent good part of my day re-booking stranded clients, quite as few opted to switch
to other airlines because they could get them home quicker than AA could.

One of my clients blamed the AA/US merger by saying
" This is what you get when you let Dollar Tree merge with Dillard's"
 
jfkgig
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RE: 20 Hours MIA To LAX On AA--Engine Trouble

Tue Dec 29, 2015 7:25 pm

Quoting jsnww81 (Reply 17):
This has been my experience as well. Something is up. Five out of my last six flights on AA have been delayed more than two hours due to maintenance issues.

Yesterday's AA973 JFK-GIG was scheduled to land at 10:35 a.m. local time, and landed at 2:30 a.m. the following day! That's 16.5 hours late. Meekly claiming "maintenance" is no excuse for such irregular operations. Just ridiculous. Beyond the pale.
 
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jsnww81
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RE: 20 Hours MIA To LAX On AA--Engine Trouble

Wed Dec 30, 2015 12:28 am

Quoting jfkgig (Reply 23):
Yesterday's AA973 JFK-GIG was scheduled to land at 10:35 a.m. local time, and landed at 2:30 a.m. the following day! That's 16.5 hours late. Meekly claiming "maintenance" is no excuse for such irregular operations. Just ridiculous. Beyond the pale.

I got a call from AA customer service today about my five-hour delay on Sunday and let the agent know that schedule reliability seems to be eroding quickly. She was professionally evasive - of course - but said she would pass along my concerns. Doesn't help hearing points like the one made above.
 
MSJYOP28Apilot
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RE: 20 Hours MIA To LAX On AA--Engine Trouble

Wed Dec 30, 2015 12:54 am

Quoting KELPkid (Reply 21):
Surely they could have made ELP (~30 min. flying time) a little further down route without backtracking?  

The A321 is still a relatively new type to L-AA and not all cities are authorized for the equipment type. C70 updates at an airline take time and only occur on an as needed basis. At an airline with paying passengers on board, your destination must be an authorized regular, provisional, or refueling airport in the C70 Ops Specs.

[Edited 2015-12-29 16:54:49]

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