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mercure1
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Air France Unions Announce Two January Strikes

Mon Dec 28, 2015 6:20 am

Two rounds of industrial action are on plan at Air France in the new year.

Firstly minority pilot union ALTER has announced strike between 10-13 January. Primary reason for strike is protest over disciplinary action against two members who remain suspended since October. Decision has not been rendered yet if other AF pilot unions of SNPL and SPAF will join and participate in social action.

Additionally the major ground staff union CGT has announced strike action effective January 28. CGT largely complain about planned redundancies of up to 3,000 staff and contracting of work to 3rd parties and the Transavia LCC concept.

News (in French)
http://www.air-journal.fr/2015-12-28...ur-des-pilotes-dalter-5155732.html
http://www.air-journal.fr/2015-12-26...a-greve-le-28-janvier-5155676.html

Looks like its gearing up to be a potentially tumultuous winter at AF.

[Edited 2015-12-27 22:21:50]
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CARST
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RE: Air France Unions Announce Two January Strikes

Mon Dec 28, 2015 9:57 am

Hey! A strike at LH or AF! Must be a slow news day as both employee groups seem to have nothing on their minds beside striking anyway. Good way to ruin their airlines...

Keep it up guys! Fight the establishment! The management is corrupt anyway! All workers of the world unite! Make the ME3 stronger with each strike! Kill your airlines! Kill the boss! Be out of job soon...



  
 
bennett123
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RE: Air France Unions Announce Two January Strikes

Mon Dec 28, 2015 12:15 pm

Is that picture for real.
 
LJ
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RE: Air France Unions Announce Two January Strikes

Mon Dec 28, 2015 3:22 pm

Quoting mercure1 (Thread starter):
Primary reason for strike is protest over disciplinary action against two members who remain suspended since October.

I doubt (and hope) that AF won't give in to such a demand. Moreover, I don't think the union will get much sympathy from the public (even in France) if they strike over the disciplinary action against the two members.
 
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pvjin
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RE: Air France Unions Announce Two January Strikes

Mon Dec 28, 2015 4:15 pm

Quoting CARST (Reply 1):

I think we should just ban ME3 from Europe and nationalize AF, KLM, BA and so on. Then everyone will be happy, who needs a free market?
"Darkness cannot drive out darkness; only light can do that. Hate cannot drive out hate; only love can do that." - Martin Luther King Jr
 
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RE: Air France Unions Announce Two January Strikes

Mon Dec 28, 2015 5:00 pm

Quoting CARST (Reply 1):
Keep it up guys! Fight the establishment! The management is corrupt anyway! All workers of the world unite! Make the ME3 stronger with each strike! Kill your airlines! Kill the boss! Be out of job soon...

If you're really German, you should consider that many of the privileges enjoyed by your compatriots are thanks to collective action. Generous vacation benefits, state healthcare and a world-class education system came from people organizing and creating change. It most certainly did not come from keeping one's nose to the grindstone. The AF and LH unions are working as collectives to improve their lot in life, and striking is a way of reminding management they have power.
 
jacobin777
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RE: Air France Unions Announce Two January Strikes

Mon Dec 28, 2015 5:17 pm

Quoting usdcaguy (Reply 6):
If you're really German, you should consider that many of the privileges enjoyed by your compatriots are thanks to collective action. Generous vacation benefits, state healthcare and a world-class education system came from people organizing and creating change. It most certainly did not come from keeping one's nose to the grindstone. The AF and LH unions are working as collectives to improve their lot in life, and striking is a way of reminding management they have power.

Black and white tv at one time was important too. This is the 21st century. Times and situations have changed the past 20-30 years - especially with the rise of the ME3 who will be more than happy to fill voids.
"Up the Irons!"
 
G500
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RE: Air France Unions Announce Two January Strikes

Mon Dec 28, 2015 6:03 pm

These are not news at all

Air France employees going on strike or a strike in France is as news worthy as what lady Gaga will wear tomorrow
 
jetblueguy22
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RE: Air France Unions Announce Two January Strikes

Mon Dec 28, 2015 6:20 pm

Quoting usdcaguy (Reply 6):
The AF and LH unions are working as collectives to improve their lot in life, and striking is a way of reminding management they have power.

It's called reminding management they are whiney and reminding passengers to fly someone else.

What is it with Europe and strikes? I swear between LH and AF there are more strike days than normal operating days.
Pat
Look at sweatpants guy. This is a 90 million dollar aircraft, not a Tallahassee strip club
 
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mercure1
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RE: Air France Unions Announce Two January Strikes

Mon Dec 28, 2015 7:11 pm

Quoting pvjin (Reply 5):
nationalize AF, KLM, BA and so on.

Well AF and many other French enterprises already has strong level of government involvement both directly and indirectly, so it would not take much to further nationalize.

Quoting usdcaguy (Reply 6):
If you're really German, you should consider that many of the privileges enjoyed by your compatriots are thanks to collective action. Generous vacation benefits, state healthcare and a world-class education system came from people organizing and creating change. It most certainly did not come from keeping one's nose to the grindstone. The AF and LH unions are working as collectives to improve their lot in life, and striking is a way of reminding management they have power.

   The very high standard of living enjoyed in Europe post WWII is very much result of the social benefits afforded to citizens and direct result of labor unions establishing such expectations from government and their employers.

Quoting jetblueguy22 (Reply 9):
What is it with Europe and strikes? I swear between LH and AF there are more strike days than normal operating days.

I don't know about LH and Germany, but things in France have been very quiet for many years until 2014. Last pilot strike prior was in 2008 and for only 4-days total before this latest bout of issues.

Much of issues currently are resultant from most recent AF management teams which employ rather brash kneejek tactics without much diplomacy in steering the company. Obviously such style is not well received when work councils and social unity are to be key participants in enterprise thinking.
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747megatop
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RE: Air France Unions Announce Two January Strikes

Mon Dec 28, 2015 7:30 pm

Quoting mercure1 (Thread starter):
Two rounds of industrial action are on plan at Air France in the new year.

Great; that will help AF compete better    !

Quoting CARST (Reply 1):
Hey! A strike at LH or AF!

I give it to LH & AF. Their strike schedules are perfectly coordinated so that they never seem to go on strike at the same time. How thoughtful of them so as not to inconvenience passengers   !!.
 
Planeflyer
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RE: Air France Unions Announce Two January Strikes

Mon Dec 28, 2015 9:11 pm

Quoting Mercure 1

The very high standard of living enjoyed in Europe post WWII is very much result of the social benefits afforded to citizens and direct result of labor unions establishing such expectations from government and their employers.



If Unions alone generated prosperity, the Soviet Union would not have collapsed. While the staff at LH and AF have certainly benefited as a result of union representation, the growth of both countries post ww2 was the real driver of prosperity. The questions now facing the West is how to reconcile the prosperity we have been accustomed to with the reality of much smaller GDP growth and a globalized market.
 
IPFreely
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RE: Air France Unions Announce Two January Strikes

Mon Dec 28, 2015 9:20 pm

Quoting usdcaguy (Reply 6):
Generous vacation benefits, state healthcare and a world-class education system came from people organizing and creating change.

And here some people think customers are the ones who pay for these things. Silly silly people. Viva La France! Free stuff for all!
 
TKA380
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RE: Air France Unions Announce Two January Strikes

Mon Dec 28, 2015 10:16 pm

Fantastic news for competitors.
 
global1
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RE: Air France Unions Announce Two January Strikes

Mon Dec 28, 2015 11:20 pm

Why can't Air France be more like KLM?
 
Lufthansa
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RE: Air France Unions Announce Two January Strikes

Mon Dec 28, 2015 11:50 pm

Doesn't this just encourage more destinations and more flights through AMS rather than CDG?

And yes, the big one. I work in the HQ of a major player in the travel industry game. Now because of contracts written which I can't and won't disclose, I can tell you at a retail level, our people are being verbally(it can't be written in an email for commercial reasons) told "don't book LH" because there's now a perception they've become unreliable. Which is a pity because their network stretches into many places others don't. So who are they booking instead.... You guess it! ME3, and to a lesser degree CX/SQ and BA. Particularly out of our UK offices that have people in markets other than london. Traditionally going everywhere from South Africa to New Zealand a lot of people sent people first to AMS or FRA ( say from Scotland or Northern England) then onwards. They're now going to DXB. And If you think people from places like Poland aren't gonna think the same thing you're nuts. LH isn't their national carrier and flag waving and patriotism won't help.
 
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thekorean
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RE: Air France Unions Announce Two January Strikes

Tue Dec 29, 2015 12:11 am

I think every time AF goes on strike, French government should ban other flights from going and arriving, to make it more fair.

I believe this will have two pronged effect, it will help AF and it will get French business community to murder AF labor unions.
 
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andrefranca
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RE: Air France Unions Announce Two January Strikes

Tue Dec 29, 2015 12:14 am

I hope more people will do what I did, I was victim of AF 2014 pilot's strike.... Brazilian law says we must be rebooked on the next available flight, even when operated by another airlines, they refused, I returned to Brazil and started a lawsuit, won, now I have my next 5 vacations paid for (flying QR EK TK nowadays).... and my AF tickets only costed me 600 euros!   no more time to "joke" around with these fools!
 
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LAX772LR
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RE: Air France Unions Announce Two January Strikes

Tue Dec 29, 2015 12:21 am

Quoting Planeflyer (Reply 3):
Despite all the money spent by Obama, what do we have to show for it?

Well, an economy that's not hemorrhaging money like a stuck pig due to fake wars charged to credit concurrent to completely unwarranted/unmerited tax breaks, for one thing.


Quoting Planeflyer (Reply 12):
If Unions alone generated prosperity, the Soviet Union would not have collapsed.

Please tell me that you came to that (inane) conclusion by some manner other than seeing "union" in the name, and just going with it.....  
I myself, suspect a more prosaic motive... ~Thranduil
 
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mercure1
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RE: Air France Unions Announce Two January Strikes

Tue Dec 29, 2015 3:11 am

Quoting thekorean (Reply 18):
it will help AF and it will get French business community to murder AF labor unions.

There really is no thing such as 'AF labor union'.

Unions at AF virtually all are in other companies also and industries even.

For example the ground staff CGT union is the largest of 5 main union federations in France and obviously involved in many sectors of the economy and even has branches in other Francophone nations.

I think its similar also in Germany where large trade unions at LH like Verdi are involved across different sectors in economy.
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LAX772LR
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RE: Air France Unions Announce Two January Strikes

Tue Dec 29, 2015 3:22 am

Quoting mercure1 (Reply 25):
Unions at AF virtually all are in other companies also and industries even.

Well, unions being "in other companies" is certainly nothing new/novel; but isn't the one in question here the SNPL?

What other industries would/could they be in?
I myself, suspect a more prosaic motive... ~Thranduil
 
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mercure1
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RE: Air France Unions Announce Two January Strikes

Tue Dec 29, 2015 3:35 am

Quoting LAX772LR (Reply 26):
but isn't the one in question here the SNPL?

Two unions involved in January industrial action so far are Alter union for pilots on CGT.
I explained large CGT already, but in case of Alter, they were formed by break off of Air Inter SNPL pilot union but they are in federation with unions that represent everything from hospital workers to radio technicians.
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Planeflyer
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RE: Air France Unions Announce Two January Strikes

Tue Dec 29, 2015 3:47 am

Quoting LAX772LR

Please tell me that you came to that (inane) conclusion by some manner other than seeing "union" in the name, and just going with it.....


I think you know exactly what I mean but if you are not trying to be obtuse, explain why you think it is inane and I'll gladly discuss.
 
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LAX772LR
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RE: Air France Unions Announce Two January Strikes

Tue Dec 29, 2015 4:06 am

Quoting mercure1 (Reply 27):
but they are in federation with unions that represent everything from hospital workers to radio technicians.

So basically: a union of unions?
Interesting.
I myself, suspect a more prosaic motive... ~Thranduil
 
FilAmAirlines
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RE: Air France Unions Announce Two January Strikes

Tue Dec 29, 2015 4:52 am

Quoting IPFreely (Reply 23):
You're right about the first part.

But lots of people have gotten tax breaks. The percentage of adults 18-65 who participate in the full time labor force has decreased significantly since 2008. And for those who do work, per capita income in 2015 was 1.5% lower than 2008. This is all straight from the Bureau of Labor Statistics. Lots of people have stopped working since Obama was elected. And many others are working fewer hours or making less money. All of these lucky people are paying less in taxes.

You are correct about the tax breaks. Nearly half of the $700 billion under the stimulus/American Recovery and Reinvestment Act included tax cuts and credits. Don't forget the consumption taxes that sap incomes of those individuals working fewer hours or making less money.

Quoting CARST (Reply 1):

Hey! A strike at LH or AF! Must be a slow news day as both employee groups seem to have nothing on their minds beside striking anyway. Good way to ruin their airlines...

Keep it up guys! Fight the establishment! The management is corrupt anyway! All workers of the world unite! Make the ME3 stronger with each strike! Kill your airlines! Kill the boss! Be out of job soon...

Would you recommend Frank Lorenzo running AF since he's well known as a union buster?
The United Arab Emirates and Qatar have laws that make unionization illegal. Let all countries take that approach.   

Quoting Planeflyer (Reply 28):
I think you know exactly what I mean but if you are not trying to be obtuse, explain why you think it is inane and I'll gladly discuss.

None of the U.S. airlines are/were owned by our federal government unlike AF, LH, JL, EK, SU, BA, etc by their respective national governments.
I don't always fly, but when I do, it's on the friendly skies of United or Delta's care that gets me there.
 
futureorthopod
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RE: Air France Unions Announce Two January Strikes

Tue Dec 29, 2015 5:47 am

So basically this is a normally operational quarter for AF. I would be shocked if there was no strike and wonder what the hell happened
 
IndianicWorld
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RE: Air France Unions Announce Two January Strikes

Tue Dec 29, 2015 6:36 am

For all the good things unions may have done, there are just as many things that have sent companies and industries broke with their fingerprints all over them.

Unions are losing more and more relevance as time goes on, so it seems they do try and step in "for the good of the people" and to impose themselves again. That hasn't got them very far but they keep going with that tactic.

I feel sorry for the passengers that will be affected.
 
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CARST
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RE: Air France Unions Announce Two January Strikes

Tue Dec 29, 2015 7:05 am

Quoting bennett123 (Reply 2):
Is that picture for real.

Some of you here really need to take the course "How do I recognise obvious jokes". Didn't the "we love sweet chains of government dependency" didn't give away that I was mocking the unions?

Quoting usdcaguy (Reply 6):
If you're really German, you should consider that many of the privileges enjoyed by your compatriots are thanks to collective action. Generous vacation benefits, state healthcare and a world-class education system came from people organizing and creating change. It most certainly did not come from keeping one's nose to the grindstone. The AF and LH unions are working as collectives to improve their lot in life, and striking is a way of reminding management they have power.

There is a huge difference between fighting for minimum social standards and enjoying certain benefits and better payment than most other work groups in the same country. It is not that we see low-income people going on strike here, but the high payed staff of ex-government-owned airlines, which hasn't realised that the world has changed around them.

Like I wrote in my post above, keep on striking, make it look like a fight of past when workers fought for the bare minimum living standards and social security, but watch these airlines getting killed by their own employees at the same time. These strikes hurt the airlines, but they have no other option than to lower their costs to stay competitive in a globalised world.

And don't get me wrong, it is good that unions fought for minimum living standards and social security in the past, but now we are living in a luxury society and they keep on fighting and THIS is stupid, they keep biting the hand that feeds them. Unions have become a way to get rich for a the leaders or these unions and another way to work less for lazy people on their mandatory days off which shall be used for "union work". And our companies have to pay them at these days. Ridiculous!
 
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LAX772LR
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RE: Air France Unions Announce Two January Strikes

Tue Dec 29, 2015 7:38 am

Quoting CARST (Reply 27):
Some of you here really need to take the course "How do I recognise obvious jokes". Didn't the "we love sweet chains of government dependency" didn't give away that I was mocking the unions?

Or, you could just leave (weak attempts at) humor to the comedians, and stay serious.... that works too.
I myself, suspect a more prosaic motive... ~Thranduil
 
Lufthansa
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RE: Air France Unions Announce Two January Strikes

Tue Dec 29, 2015 10:01 am

Quoting CARST (Reply 27):
And don't get me wrong, it is good that unions fought for minimum living standards and social security in the past, but now we are living in a luxury society and they keep on fighting and THIS is stupid, they keep biting the hand that feeds them. Unions have become a way to get rich for a the leaders or these unions and another way to work less for lazy people on their mandatory days off which shall be used for "union work". And our companies have to pay them at these days. Ridiculous!

somnebody said it! and every time they persist...another EK A380 is built and filled... at a profit.
 
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CARST
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RE: Air France Unions Announce Two January Strikes

Tue Dec 29, 2015 3:14 pm

Quoting LAX772LR (Reply 28):
Or, you could just leave (weak attempts at) humor to the comedians, and stay serious.... that works too.

Come on, this is not pprune, but a.net, home of the notorious funny a.nutters. A joke here and there doesn't kill off the serious discussions mate. And my post (especially with that excessively exaggerated drawing) was really giving away who I was mocking...  
Quoting Lufthansa (Reply 29):
somnebody said it! and every time they persist...another EK A380 is built and filled... at a profit.

  
 
bennett123
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RE: Air France Unions Announce Two January Strikes

Tue Dec 29, 2015 3:19 pm

Carst

Problem on here is that no matter how crazy it sounds, people are sometimes serious.

Perhaps I spend too much time on Non Av.
 
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CARST
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RE: Air France Unions Announce Two January Strikes

Tue Dec 29, 2015 5:59 pm

Quoting bennett123 (Reply 31):
Carst

Problem on here is that no matter how crazy it sounds, people are sometimes serious.

Perhaps I spend too much time on Non Av.

My bad, will next time mark my post as sarcasm.  
 
MH017
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RE: Air France Unions Announce Two January Strikes

Tue Dec 29, 2015 6:01 pm

Quoting global1 (Reply 14):
Why can't Air France be more like KLM?

What KL is is saving with cost-saving measures in one pocket, will be thrown out from the other pocket by AF with all these strikes !!!

Mind you, AF/KL is one holding and we, as Dutch, fear for the future of KL with all these strikes and attacks at AF  
don't throw away tomorrow !
 
LSZH34
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RE: Air France Unions Announce Two January Strikes

Tue Dec 29, 2015 6:02 pm

First world problems. Whatever, just give the market share straight to the ME3...
 
747megatop
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RE: Air France Unions Announce Two January Strikes

Tue Dec 29, 2015 6:24 pm

Quoting thekorean (Reply 16):
I think every time AF goes on strike, French government should ban other flights from going and arriving, to make it more fair.

level playing field  . We have seen these words used in ME3 related threads. Maybe the French govt should take your suggestion and give AF a level playing field.
 
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lightsaber
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RE: Air France Unions Announce Two January Strikes

Tue Dec 29, 2015 10:39 pm

How many flights are impacted?

Quoting Lufthansa (Reply 15):
I can tell you at a retail level, our people are being verbally(it can't be written in an email for commercial reasons) told "don't book LH"

#1 requirement is dependability. With AF and LH striking so often... This will kill them as:

Quoting CARST (Reply 27):
These strikes hurt the airlines, but they have no other option than to lower their costs to stay competitive in a globalised world.

Exactly. The unions do not like reality. But all airline ticks have highly visible pricing. Service helps, but all these strikes are an issue.


Lightsaber
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Pihero
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RE: Air France Unions Announce Two January Strikes

Tue Dec 29, 2015 11:46 pm

Quoting lightsaber (Reply 36):
How many flights are impacted?

  
Thirty six posts before someone asks the question !

Fact is these strikes are noit so popular among the employees :
1/- ALTER has issued notice for strike between the 10 to the 13 Jan.
Alter objects to two of its members been investigated for opening a gate and giving their magnetric passes to riotinjg CGT members.
That union represents some 7% of the unionised pilois, mainly those based in Orly.
Its activism has causede its membership to dwindle right on the border of irrelevancy.
That movement is unlikely to be followed, like all their strike actions last year which went unnoticed.

2/- CGT put a notice foçr strike on the 28 th.
That union, still very much linked to the communist party has now gone down to nimber 3 or 4 for ground personnel representation.... Some 14 % sympathisers, to whom one would have to add the 7 to 8 % of the Sud Aerien people ( those still in the proletarian class struggle ). Those were the violent ones, but in terms of strike efficiency they don't count for very much : low wage employees, many without real job qualifications. Unless they use violence - which is still possible - their strike won't hurt the airline.

People on this site have a tendency to cut and paste their experience models to every country. which is generally completely erroneous.
On the subject of representativity and union membership, France is certainly a case apart.
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Planeflyer
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RE: Air France Unions Announce Two January Strikes

Wed Dec 30, 2015 12:25 am

Quoting Pihero,

Thirty six posts before someone asks the question !

Fact is these strikes are noit so popular among the employees :
1/- ALTER has issued notice for strike between the 10 to the 13 Jan.
Alter objects to two of its members been investigated for opening a gate and giving their magnetric passes to riotinjg CGT members.
That union represents some 7% of the unionised pilois, mainly those based in Orly.
Its activism has causede its membership to dwindle right on the border of irrelevancy.
That movement is unlikely to be followed, like all their strike actions last year which went unnoticed.

2/- CGT put a notice foçr strike on the 28 th.
That union, still very much linked to the communist party has now gone down to nimber 3 or 4 for ground personnel representation.... Some 14 % sympathisers, to whom one would have to add the 7 to 8 % of the Sud Aerien people ( those still in the proletarian class struggle ). Those were the violent ones, but in terms of strike efficiency they don't count for very much : low wage employees, many without real job qualifications. Unless they use violence - which is still possible - their strike won't hurt the airline.

People on this site have a tendency to cut and paste their experience models to every country. which is generally completely erroneous.
On the subject of representativity and union membership, France is certainly a case apart.



Very good point, unions are not one size fits all.

But I also think the question about how many flights effected is besides the point. I have been burned so often by various strikes in France that I simply avoid traveling through there.

Really sad as France is wonderful stop over but the visit is not worth the risk. I cant believe I'm the only one who associates AF with travel interruption risk.

Having said this while the Unions have hurt AF, the very poor GDP track record over the past 30 years is the elephant in the closet. I'm really impressed AF has been able to mange this well in such a poor economic environment
 
Pihero
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RE: Air France Unions Announce Two January Strikes

Wed Dec 30, 2015 10:16 am

Quoting Planeflyer (Reply 38):
the very poor GDP track record over the past 30 years is the elephant in the closet. I'm really impressed AF has been able to mange this well in such a poor economic environment

     
Oh boy !
Really care to compare GDP evolution between countries ?
Contrail designer
 
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Aesma
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RE: Air France Unions Announce Two January Strikes

Wed Dec 30, 2015 4:05 pm

The pilot's strike is not over working conditions/salary, and is indeed difficult to defend. I guess the problem is that when you're an airline pilot, if you're sacked (especially for messing with security), you're not likely to find work elsewhere.

The CGT strike is over redundancies and work conditions, salaries, and we're not talking about high flying pilots driving Porsches here, but low salary people living around Paris (meaning a very high cost place, nothing alike exists in Germany).

Quoting IPFreely (Reply 12):
And here some people think customers are the ones who pay for these things. Silly silly people. Viva La France! Free stuff for all!

Customers benefit from the same kind of protections, vacation time (which is by law in France), health care system, pension system, etc.
New Technology is the name we give to stuff that doesn't work yet. Douglas Adams
 
Pyrex
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RE: Air France Unions Announce Two January Strikes

Wed Dec 30, 2015 4:46 pm

Quoting Pihero (Reply 37):
Alter objects to two of its members been investigated for opening a gate and giving their magnetric passes to riotinjg CGT members.

You are right, it is incomprehensible how those pilots were suspended, they should have been fired on the spot and charged with conspiracy to commit criminal trespassing. Someone that does something like that should not be trusted with the lives of hundreds of peoples, let alone be provided airside access at an airport.

Quoting Aesma (Reply 40):
the problem is that when you're an airline pilot, if you're sacked (especially for messing with security), you're not likely to find work elsewhere.

Should have thought of that before committing a crime.
Read this very carefully, I shall write this only once!
 
Planeflyer
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RE: Air France Unions Announce Two January Strikes

Wed Dec 30, 2015 4:54 pm

Quoting Pihero,

Oh boy !
Really care to compare GDP evolution between countries ?


Not as complicated as you might think.

France ranks very low for economic freedom and its very poor GDP performance is the result.

http://www.heritage.org/index/book/chapter-2
 
Pihero
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RE: Air France Unions Announce Two January Strikes

Wed Dec 30, 2015 6:40 pm

Quoting Planeflyer (Reply 42):
France ranks very low for economic freedom and its very poor GDP performance is the result.

The silliest conclusion I have ever had the misfortune to read on this forum.

How one could base his/her conclusion on only one debatable datum is beyond me.
You'd only need to take the OECD stats for the past 30 years ( your initial assumption) and see how really soooooooo much better the US performance has been ( it hasn't)
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Planeflyer
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RE: Air France Unions Announce Two January Strikes

Wed Dec 30, 2015 7:10 pm

Quoting Pihero,

The silliest conclusion I have ever had the misfortune to read on this forum.

How one could base his/her conclusion on only one debatable datum is beyond me.
You'd only need to take the OECD stats for the past 30 years ( your initial assumption) and see how really soooooooo much better the US performance has been ( it hasn't)

My position is that more economic freedom = more growth. To get the data I googled economic freedom vs GDP growth and linked the first listing.

The link certainly contained much more than one single data point

I said nothing about the USA.

If you have a better understanding about the poor GDP track record of France I'm all ears. I believe the world is a much better place with a strong, vibrant French economy. When France is weak bad things often follow.
 
captainmeeerkat
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RE: Air France Unions Announce Two January Strikes

Wed Dec 30, 2015 7:11 pm

Quoting Planeflyer (Reply 38):
Fact is these strikes are noit so popular among the employees :

Then why strike if so unpopular??
my luggage is better travelled than me!
 
PlaneAdmirer
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RE: Air France Unions Announce Two January Strikes

Wed Dec 30, 2015 7:22 pm

Quoting CARST (Reply 1):

That's a brilliant illustration.

Would anyone be shocked to find out that the ME3 are funding the European unions?
 
mozart
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RE: Air France Unions Announce Two January Strikes

Wed Dec 30, 2015 10:03 pm

Always happy to chime in when there is a good economics debate.

I looked at OECD data and indeed it shows that France is systematically growing slower than countries like Germany, the USA, or Switzerland. But always doing better than the UK. Which confirms something macroeconomist know: the UK economy is over-rated, the French one under-estimated.

Of course there are many explanations for France's economic performance. Not just one datum. Still, it would be careless to completely dismiss the Economic freedom measures, because it is indeed more than one datum. Many things are measured, and studying them one by one reveals a much more insightful picture. For instance it shows that France is doing very well along many dimensions, but that it ranks extremely poorly for over-regulation of its labour market, its over-bloated public sector and handicapping fiscal regimes. If one doesn't like the Heritage foundation data for whatever reason, then other studies such as those by the WEF or INSEAD on things like competitiveness, R&D etc. all show France doing between mediocre and poorly.

Hence, there is no ground for saying that the French economy is performing well. On the other hand, there are plenty of indicators that the economy suffers from numerous structural handicaps. And almost nobody in France denies them (sounding out the spectrum of public opinion in France one hears not many foolish analyses about what is wrong. It's the proposed solutions which range from too timid to mindbuggingly idiotic).

Nevertheless, France is a very wealthy and advanced country, that does see growth. Little, but there is some. Therefore, arguing that it is surprising that AF actually does grow in that economic environment is, well, an intellectual shortcut.
 
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Aesma
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RE: Air France Unions Announce Two January Strikes

Thu Dec 31, 2015 12:47 am

Those criteria are liberal ones (European sense of the word). French people aren't liberal, the word itself is considered derogatory. Mainstream right-wing and left-wing politicians aren't liberal, and extreme right and left parties are anti-liberal. Only the center, or about 10% of the voters, is liberal.

Maybe some politician will manage to liberalize France, but it's a suicide mission.
New Technology is the name we give to stuff that doesn't work yet. Douglas Adams
 
mozart
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RE: Air France Unions Announce Two January Strikes

Thu Dec 31, 2015 8:38 am

There are two separate points here: one is that the French economy is sluggish. It has nothing to do with being liberal or not, when you're unemployed then, liberal or not, you're unemployed. When companies lose market share against foreign competitors then, liberal or not, they don't do well. And when people have to hand over a lot of their earned money to pay the debts accumulated by prior generations then, liberal or not, they have less money to pay for their lives.

The other debate is about the reasons for why these phenomena exist. There I agree with you, the criteria listened it are perfectly liberal. They may be right or wrong, but that doesn't matter. The fact is that the economy is sluggish

And I repeat: to make a direct link of causality between economic freedom and the development of the airline doesn't hold intellectual scrutiny.

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