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AviatorW6
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A321LR With 5-across Twin-aisle Economy Layout?

Mon Dec 28, 2015 9:35 am

Hi

The A321LR is coming online pretty soon and probably many airlines will use it on routes requiring range close to the limits of the type making weight restrictions (unsold seats) likely to be necessary in some cases. Do you think it could make a 1-3-1 layout in economy viable? This way the horrific single-aisle, 6-across seating on segments up to 9 hours (!) could be avoided, providing an incomparably more comfortable alternative combined with no real disadvantages on flights utilising the maximum capabilities of the aircraft. There are some sketches available under the following link: http://blogs.crikey.com.au/planetalk...fewer-seats-in-single-aisle-jets/.

A 2-2-1 layout may appear even more practical, however I have some doubts that proper-sized overhed bins could be installed in that case.

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RE: A321LR With 5-across Twin-aisle Economy Layout?

Mon Dec 28, 2015 9:46 am

If anything airlines would be more likely to go 2-3 with wider seats, than attempt to add another narrow aisle.

Aslo on the 321LR an large amount of floor space would be likely to be taken up with an enlarged preiume class product.
 
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RE: A321LR With 5-across Twin-aisle Economy Layout?

Mon Dec 28, 2015 9:46 am

Zero chance. The ac is premised on economics and taking out what could be 20-25 seats doesn't pencil out in the economics.
 
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RE: A321LR With 5-across Twin-aisle Economy Layout?

Mon Dec 28, 2015 9:47 am

Great idea for passenger comfort, but the bean counters would never allow it.
 
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AMIKI
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RE: A321LR With 5-across Twin-aisle Economy Layout?

Mon Dec 28, 2015 9:52 am

Nobody complained about the 3.50m cabin width in the DC-8 and 3.70m in the B707...

[Edited 2015-12-28 01:53:12]
 
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CARST
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RE: A321LR With 5-across Twin-aisle Economy Layout?

Mon Dec 28, 2015 9:52 am

Very interesting concept; from a passenger perspective. Just thinking about the lost revenue on shorter sectors would make every CEO cringe, thus I think the chances of this being used by any airline are very slim.

The only chance for such a layout to be used would be an airline that will use the A321LR as a subfleet purely for their think longhaul routes and has no interest to use the plane for shorter sectors, too. I though perhaps EI could be a candidate, but as most of their US East Coast routes are way shorter than the A321LR max range, I guess this won't be interesting for them. FI is right in the middle of the Atlantic, sectors are too short, too, for this layout being cost-effective. I can't think of any airline really to use this. Perhaps the US major three as a subfleet for think TATL routes? Or some LCC starting TATL traffic? No, not really, way to cozy for a LCC layout...
 
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RE: A321LR With 5-across Twin-aisle Economy Layout?

Mon Dec 28, 2015 10:34 am

Quoting AviatorW6 (Thread starter):
This way the horrific single-aisle, 6-across seating on segments up to 9 hours (!) could be avoided, providing an incomparably more comfortable alternative combined with no real disadvantages on flights utilising the maximum capabilities of the aircraft

What was good enough for the 707 and DC 8 and the 757 will be good enough for the A321. A second aisle will not improve comfort. Wider seats might do but management will not like it, losing too many seats. Larger pitch certainly would be the most important improvement of comfort and comes with a fairly small penalty, just 6 or 12 seats less.
 
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RE: A321LR With 5-across Twin-aisle Economy Layout?

Mon Dec 28, 2015 11:03 am

I wouldn't call such a configuration "economy." A 5-abreast 2-3 single aisle layout would have to be sold as a domestic business class to make sense, and I don't think it could considered business class for anything longer than a transcontinental US flight.
 
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RE: A321LR With 5-across Twin-aisle Economy Layout?

Mon Dec 28, 2015 11:10 am

Quoting zkncj (Reply 1):
If anything airlines would be more likely to go 2-3 with wider seats, than attempt to add another narrow aisle.

Absolute agreement. No way we are going to see a second aisle in a narrow body, it will create more problems than it would solve.
Don't forget that a long haul configured A321 would not be chaired as densely as most short haul ones, so the boarding/disembarkment problem would not be as severed anyhow.
 
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RE: A321LR With 5-across Twin-aisle Economy Layout?

Mon Dec 28, 2015 11:26 am

Quoting AviatorW6 (Thread starter):

This is a jokey observation only, but you took a long route to miss the easier obvious 2-3 layout lol
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RE: A321LR With 5-across Twin-aisle Economy Layout?

Mon Dec 28, 2015 12:10 pm

Quoting coolian2 (Reply 9):
This is a jokey observation only, but you took a long route to miss the easier obvious 2-3 layout lol

Well it's more than just a simple 5-across layout, it provides direct aisle access for the 80% of the passengers plus makes any movements within the cabin much more convenient (for both cabin crew and passengers).

Regarding the 707 and DC8 comments, they are the mohicans of an era when wide-body passenger jets not yet existed (introduction of the 747 occured in 1970). AFAIK no narrow-body long-haul aircraft has been produced ever since.

[Edited 2015-12-28 04:11:14]
 
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RE: A321LR With 5-across Twin-aisle Economy Layout?

Mon Dec 28, 2015 12:25 pm

Quoting AviatorW6 (Reply 10):
Regarding the 707 and DC8 comments, they are the mohicans of an era when wide-body passenger jets not yet existed (introduction of the 747 occured in 1970). AFAIK no narrow-body long-haul aircraft has been produced ever since.

I don't think in the future airlines will order any twin aisle aircraft with less than 8-abreast seating in economy class. Long haul non-stop narrow body service is the alternative to one stop wide body service plus connecting flights on short haul narrow bodies to markets that can't justify non-stop service on wide bodies.
 
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RE: A321LR With 5-across Twin-aisle Economy Layout?

Mon Dec 28, 2015 12:28 pm

Quoting aviationaware (Reply 8):
so the boarding/disembarkment problem would not be as severed anyhow

Yes, and add to that long-hual services tend to have an longer turn around between flights, and boarding starts earlier.

If it becomes an problem, airlines can always do front/rear boarding which is common in New Zealand and Australia on there narrow body fleets.
 
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RE: A321LR With 5-across Twin-aisle Economy Layout?

Mon Dec 28, 2015 12:33 pm

Quoting AviatorW6 (Reply 10):
Regarding the 707 and DC8 comments, they are the mohicans of an era when wide-body passenger jets not yet existed (introduction of the 747 occured in 1970). AFAIK no narrow-body long-haul aircraft has been produced ever since.

You are trying to re-right history and anyway a single aisle isn't any worse , actually a better experience for many in economy than sitting with as many as 35 other within your own personal space !

BTW the multiple aisle wasn't introduced with passenger comfort but rather to get as MANY as possible within a limited tube length !

Truly this multiple aisle issue is pure nonsense !

I might add that a significant number of travelers are in parties of two or more .

Single seats in other than the business cabin are quite difficult to fill on many routes and in some business models - Charter leisure and Flexible fares routes almost pointless.

[Edited 2015-12-28 04:38:03]

[Edited 2015-12-28 04:39:12]
 
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RE: A321LR With 5-across Twin-aisle Economy Layout?

Mon Dec 28, 2015 1:28 pm

Quoting AviatorW6 (Reply 10):

Unless you go 2-3, the gymnastics to use the overhead bins would be entertaining. In a 1-3-1 layout, only the guy in the middle seat could reach them.
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RE: A321LR With 5-across Twin-aisle Economy Layout?

Mon Dec 28, 2015 1:41 pm

Quoting sonomaflyer (Reply 2):

Zero chance. The ac is premised on economics and taking out what could be 20-25 seats doesn't pencil out in the economics.
Quoting briguychau (Reply 3):
Great idea for passenger comfort, but the bean counters would never allow it.
Quoting CARST (Reply 5):

Very interesting concept; from a passenger perspective. Just thinking about the lost revenue on shorter sectors would make every CEO cringe, thus I think the chances of this being used by any airline are very slim.

The whole premise of the A321LR is to allow a narrow body operate traditional 'widebody' routes at a lower cost. So I have to agree with the above posters.
 
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RE: A321LR With 5-across Twin-aisle Economy Layout?

Mon Dec 28, 2015 2:37 pm

Quoting Spacepope (Reply 14):
Unless you go 2-3, the gymnastics to use the overhead bins would be entertaining. In a 1-3-1 layout, only the guy in the middle seat could reach them.

And everybody would bump their heads on the overhead bins walking down the aisle.
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RE: A321LR With 5-across Twin-aisle Economy Layout?

Mon Dec 28, 2015 3:06 pm

Perhaps this is where the idea of a twin-aisle narrowbody came from.....

http://aviationweek.com/commercial-a...rizon#slide-0-field_images-1389451


And some say that a twin aisle NMA is crazy?   
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RE: A321LR With 5-across Twin-aisle Economy Layout?

Mon Dec 28, 2015 3:10 pm

and the cart would bump the poor guy's feet every time it passes or you'd have to have some sort of height restriction of no more than 5'6'' or so for the guy in the middle
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RE: A321LR With 5-across Twin-aisle Economy Layout?

Mon Dec 28, 2015 3:18 pm

Quoting AviatorW6 (Reply 10):
Regarding the 707 and DC8 comments, they are the mohicans of an era when wide-body passenger jets not yet existed (introduction of the 747 occured in 1970). AFAIK no narrow-body long-haul aircraft has been produced ever since.

That doesn't mean one won't be produced again.

You're also confusing the purpose of a long-haul narrowbody in the 60s-70s versus the purpose of one today. The 707 and DC-8 served the busiest routes until the advent of widebodies. Today, a long-haul narrowbody would be used to serve long-thin routes. It's a different market and one that is emerging because of the global growth in air travel.
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RE: A321LR With 5-across Twin-aisle Economy Layout?

Mon Dec 28, 2015 3:46 pm

econospeak: do a 2-3 layout with the middle sat a inch or two wider that the others. so more comfortable for the middle seater, and not crowding the window and aisle seat as much.
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RE: A321LR With 5-across Twin-aisle Economy Layout?

Mon Dec 28, 2015 4:47 pm

2-1-2 would be more practical... COS customers in the middle seats so they wont encroach on the other passengers next to them and everyone will get an aisle or window.

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RE: A321LR With 5-across Twin-aisle Economy Layout?

Mon Dec 28, 2015 5:27 pm

Quoting AviatorW6 (Thread starter):
This way the horrific single-aisle, 6-across seating

It is not horrific, even though it might not be greatly convenient. Aisle space does not add significantly to passenger comfort. Faced with the comfort/price trade-offs of such a twin-aisle proposal, it is very likely that passengers would not choose it.

Consider economy, twin-aisle 1-3-1 with 18-in aisles and 18-in wide seats. Preserving the same pitch and same seat count, make that 2-3 with a single aisle. Eliminating one aisle allows for very generous 21-in wide seats and a 21-in single aisle. Those seats could even be placed at an angle providing incredible knee room.
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RE: A321LR With 5-across Twin-aisle Economy Layout?

Mon Dec 28, 2015 5:41 pm

Quoting AviatorW6 (Thread starter):
horrific

Really, I know it's an internet "thing", but do we really have to refer to something that is somewhat uncomfortable as "horrific"? I mean we're talking about an airline economy seat, not a bed of nails. If it's so "horrific", either pay for first class or stay at home.
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RE: A321LR With 5-across Twin-aisle Economy Layout?

Mon Dec 28, 2015 5:49 pm

Quoting flyingclrs727 (Reply 7):
I wouldn't call such a configuration "economy." A 5-abreast 2-3 single aisle layout would have to be sold as a domestic business class to make sense, and I don't think it could considered business class for anything longer than a transcontinental US flight.

Some carriers originally had a 5-abreast business layout on their A320s. Swissair was one. That didn't last long as it was too inflexible considering the varying demand by day of week, time of day, and season. Often meant that most of the J class seats were empty. They switched to the now virtually standard European type of business product with Y class seats and the middle seat left empty (and sometimes, for example KLM, with a few inches of additional seat pitch in the foreward rows), permitting the size of the business cabin to be varied depending on demand.

KLM's 737-300/400s also originally had a fixed business class cabin with 2-3 seating.
 
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RE: A321LR With 5-across Twin-aisle Economy Layout?

Mon Dec 28, 2015 5:55 pm

If a 6 abreast 321 is horrific, what term would you use for 9 abreast 787 or 10 abreast 777?

An airline would maintain fleet commonality and fly empty seats on several very long routes unless customers show inclination to pay a premium for comfort.

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RE: A321LR With 5-across Twin-aisle Economy Layout?

Mon Dec 28, 2015 5:58 pm

Not enough overhead clearance for 1-3-1. Imagine passengers standing and walking where the center seats are today -- not going to happen.

Maybe 2-1-2 would work (physically) on an aircraft with pivot bins.

But in any case I agree with everyone else that the idea will never see the light of day for economic reasons.
 
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RE: A321LR With 5-across Twin-aisle Economy Layout?

Mon Dec 28, 2015 6:26 pm

Quoting flyiguy (Reply 21):

2-1-2 would be more practical... COS customers in the middle seats so they wont encroach on the other passengers next to them and everyone will get an aisle or window.

This is what I was thinking. I was suprised no one mentioned it sooner. 1-3-1 and 2-2-1 make no sense, whereas 2-1-2 are much more feasible. I still don't think this would ever happen, but if it did, I think that is the configuration we would see.
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RE: A321LR With 5-across Twin-aisle Economy Layout?

Mon Dec 28, 2015 7:08 pm

How wide could the seats be in 2-3 config vs. 3-3?
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RE: A321LR With 5-across Twin-aisle Economy Layout?

Mon Dec 28, 2015 7:14 pm

An Airbus at 6 abreast is one of the best rides in the sky. That is not where I would start my complaints about flying, or about life.
 
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RE: A321LR With 5-across Twin-aisle Economy Layout?

Mon Dec 28, 2015 7:30 pm

Quoting bjorn14 (Reply 28):

How wide could the seats be in 2-3 config vs. 3-3?

Over 21 inches if the same aisle width is kept. Probably an actual configuration would have a wider aisle and 20 to 20.5 inch seat.
 
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RE: A321LR With 5-across Twin-aisle Economy Layout?

Mon Dec 28, 2015 7:48 pm

Quoting bjorn14 (Reply 28):
How wide could the seats be in 2-3 config vs. 3-3?

One Y class seat is about 18 inches wide on the A320 family. Divide that by 6 and add the result to each of the remaining 5 seats, meaning 3 inches wider maximum.

In any case it makes no economic sense to go from 6 to 5-abreast in Y class. The fare is the only thing that counts these days. Cramming in the most seats possible is the way to maximize revenues now, apart from a Y+ type product with a few inches more seat pitch which some passengers will pay for if the surcharge is moderate, as with KLM's Economy Comfort product.
 
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RE: A321LR With 5-across Twin-aisle Economy Layout?

Mon Dec 28, 2015 7:55 pm

The link in the OP is from 14 Feb 12. Seeing the other thread on an IB A380, could the linked article have not been recycled as a prank on this "Innocents Day"?   
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RE: A321LR With 5-across Twin-aisle Economy Layout?

Mon Dec 28, 2015 9:02 pm

What about a 2-1-2 layout? I've pondered for a while if that would be feasible.
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RE: A321LR With 5-across Twin-aisle Economy Layout?

Mon Dec 28, 2015 10:12 pm

Quoting AMIKI (Reply 4):
Nobody complained about the 3.50m cabin width in the DC-8 and 3.70m in the B707...

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RE: A321LR With 5-across Twin-aisle Economy Layout?

Mon Dec 28, 2015 10:24 pm

Quoting AviatorW6 (Thread starter):
Do you think it could make a 1-3-1 layout in economy viable?
Quoting AviatorW6 (Thread starter):
A 2-2-1 layout may appear even more practical,

Neither.

Quoting zkncj (Reply 1):
If anything airlines would be more likely to go 2-3 with wider seats, than attempt to add another narrow aisle.

  

I think pax would prefer wider seats than an extra aisle at the expense of seat width / extra comfort.

Quoting flyiguy (Reply 21):
2-1-2 would be more practical... COS customers in the middle seats so they wont encroach on the other passengers next to them and everyone will get an aisle or window.

I still think a 2-3 or 3-2 config would be more practical if the A321 was configured in 5 abreast in relation to the point of this topic:

Quoting AviatorW6 (Thread starter):
The A321LR is coming online pretty soon and probably many airlines will use it on routes requiring range close to the limits of the type making weight restrictions (unsold seats) likely to be necessary in some cases.
Quoting AviatorW6 (Thread starter):
segments up to 9 hours (!)

On such a long sector on a A320/321 width plane, I'd prefer 2-3 with wider seats and just one aisle compared to 1-3-1 or 2-2-1 with narrower seats allowing for the second aisle.

I don't know about flyiguy, but for a 9hr flight I probably spent at least 8.5hrs in my seat so I'd rather be comfortable in my seat and just deal with the aisle for the few minutes I spend in it.
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RE: A321LR With 5-across Twin-aisle Economy Layout?

Mon Dec 28, 2015 10:36 pm

In the real world 3-3 works just fine. If an airline does trade extra butts for elbow space I think 2-3 (or 3-2) with ~2" wider seats and a more generous single aisle would make far more sense than a twin-aisle configuration on any of the A320 derivatives. Even if the bean counters were ignored and we only looked at the practical world the loss of overhead bin space, loss of aisle head room, increased cart bumping, and all that fun stuff would outweigh the benefits in a hurry. On top of that the interior designers would have to get pretty creative where the seats end and the galleys and lavs begin, most likely resulting in further awkwardness.

For long flights on a traditionally 3-3 aircraft my personal preference as a passenger would actually be leave the 3-3 alone and just don't sell the middle seat unless someone is wanting three seats together. My most comfortable trips in economy have been on 3 seat benches where one gets the aisle seat, one gets the window seat, and we can each spill over into the empty middle space as needed. Lots of elbow room, a convenient space to put your book down when your beverage arrives, etc etc. Also keeps bean counters happy as the aircraft can jump in and do double duty on higher capacity short haul trips between the long hauls.
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RE: A321LR With 5-across Twin-aisle Economy Layout?

Mon Dec 28, 2015 10:55 pm

Quoting CanadianNorth (Reply 36):
For long flights on a traditionally 3-3 aircraft my personal preference as a passenger would actually be leave the 3-3 alone and just don't sell the middle seat unless someone is wanting three seats together. My most comfortable trips in economy have been on 3 seat benches where one gets the aisle seat, one gets the window seat, and we can each spill over into the empty middle space as needed. Lots of elbow room, a convenient space to put your book down when your beverage arrives, etc etc. Also keeps bean counters happy as the aircraft can jump in and do double duty on higher capacity short haul trips between the long hauls.

I think the biggest hassle with long-haul flights on narrowbodies is just the crowded aisle for lav access and cabin service. A mid-cabin lav with a standing area (about 1 bench row) so that people can get out of the aisle would do wonders and cost far fewer seats.
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RE: A321LR With 5-across Twin-aisle Economy Layout?

Mon Dec 28, 2015 11:13 pm

Zero chance of two isles, would take up way too much space.

I dont think most people complain about the width, its the legroom that people cant stand, thats 90+% of the peoples complaint.
 
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RE: A321LR With 5-across Twin-aisle Economy Layout?

Mon Dec 28, 2015 11:19 pm

Although this sort of thing is fun to think about, realistically I don't see it happening.

I think the original notion was predicated on not being able to take a full load on an ultra long-haul. Such as if the plane can hold 240 in full-Y configuration but only the weight of 200 on a 7500 mile segment.

Instead of 40 rows of 6 (240 seats) the idea of 40 rows of 5 (200) seats with two aisle is almost certainly an economic non-starter. Granted if indeed they always need to block off 40 seats it would be beneficial to not lug around the weight of 40 extra seats. But far, far more likely would be for the airline to reduce seating by putting in premium seats they can charge extra for. The second aisle doesn't gain a nickel of revenue. Even if it's a route without a whole lot of premium demand for F/J suites which cost as much as a new car, they could certainly get at least get a fairly modest premium for extra legroom seating by removing rows.

Fun to think about twin aisle on narrowbody, but the challenge that predicates it would be solved in other ways which bring in more revenue.
 
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RE: A321LR With 5-across Twin-aisle Economy Layout?

Tue Dec 29, 2015 1:45 am

I don't see any benefits to a double aisle configuration that would not also be achievable with a simply wider aisle. I don't see any reason why an airline would choose to go with two aisles.

I do, however, see potential for 5 across seating - 2-3 or 3-2. This wouldn't be the entire aircraft of course, it would be a separate premium economy cabin. In fact I am rather surprised that this hasn't taken over yet, especially on domestic routes. Where so much of first is already elite rewards, why not expand the front of the plane to say 10 rows of 5 across at 38 pitch, and while you might not be able to charge quite as much for those seats, you make that up with additional seats and more people being willing to shell out a little more for them.
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RE: A321LR With 5-across Twin-aisle Economy Layout?

Tue Dec 29, 2015 4:24 am

Quoting AviatorW6 (Thread starter):
This way the horrific single-aisle, 6-across seating on segments up to 9 hours (!) could be avoided

Wait- HORRIFIC? Seriously? I mean that's common practice on long hauls to Japan (12 hours BTW) and I fly that almost once a year. Sure I always ask for a window seat, but I sure do see a lot of people putting up with the 'horror'.
 
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RE: A321LR With 5-across Twin-aisle Economy Layout?

Tue Dec 29, 2015 6:47 am

I think the A321 3-3 layout is ok, if you get a good confortable seat with 34 to 35 inch pitch and god recline and a foot rest, the experience is WAY so much better, even better than a wider seat...

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silentbob
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RE: A321LR With 5-across Twin-aisle Economy Layout?

Tue Dec 29, 2015 7:17 am

Quoting zkncj (Reply 1):
If anything airlines would be more likely to go 2-3 with wider seats, than attempt to add another narrow aisle.

Well, they would call the 2 seats a premium and charge more for it. I think most passengers paying would prefer more leg room, but it would be interesting to see if that could work.
 
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seahawk
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RE: A321LR With 5-across Twin-aisle Economy Layout?

Tue Dec 29, 2015 8:37 am

Nobody is going to give up 16% of possible revenue for an extra aisle. Nobody is going to pay 16% more for a ticket for an extra aisle.
 
YULWinterSkies
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RE: A321LR With 5-across Twin-aisle Economy Layout?

Tue Dec 29, 2015 9:35 am

Quoting AviatorW6 (Thread starter):
The A321LR is coming online pretty soon and probably many airlines will use it on routes requiring range close to the limits of the type making weight restrictions (unsold seats) likely to be necessary in some cases.

You nailed the problem by asking the question, (your own words) "in some cases". Which means that in other cases, the extra range and maxed out, capacity-restricting, fuel load won't be needed.
Therefore, I think it will be more cost effective to airlines to configure all of their a/c in 3-3 and, for the routes where weight restrictions are needed to make room for the extra fuel, then they will cap pax load, and hopefully the freed seats will be middle seats in the rear of the cabin, giving comfy rides to pairs of solo travelers.
Also, the a/c this way can rotate between long thin routes and regional medium haul routes for best fleet use effectiveness. No need to maintain separate fleets and cabins.

Quoting AviatorW6 (Thread starter):
This way the horrific single-aisle, 6-across seating on segments up to 9 hours (!) could be avoided, providing an incomparably more comfortable alternative

By experience, it is in no way more horrific than a cramped 777 with 3-4-3, with somehow is getting the norm of long-haul travel these days. If anything, the 757 (and one can presume, the A320/21 NEO) appears to be quieter than the 777.
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Faro
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RE: A321LR With 5-across Twin-aisle Economy Layout?

Tue Dec 29, 2015 9:39 am

Quoting sonomaflyer (Reply 2):
Zero chance. The ac is premised on economics and taking out what could be 20-25 seats doesn't pencil out in the economics.

  


Indeed if you could fit 7 seats across in an A321, that would by far be the more likely outcome...money money money...the rest is A.net fantasy...


Faro
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lightsaber
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RE: A321LR With 5-across Twin-aisle Economy Layout?

Tue Dec 29, 2015 2:17 pm

Twin isles on an A321 and overhead bins are not compatible. No airline will get rid of overhead bins.


No economy passenger would pay for more isle anyway. What is the point?

Quoting zkncj (Reply 1):
If anything airlines would be more likely to go 2-3 with wider seats, than attempt to add another narrow aisle.

That I could see. There is revenue potential there.

Lightsaber
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bjorn14
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RE: A321LR With 5-across Twin-aisle Economy Layout?

Tue Dec 29, 2015 2:54 pm

Quoting TheRedBaron (Reply 42):

I agree and with only 25 Y rows you should be able to get a decent seat pitch. What would the seat pitch be with 25 rows and with 4 rows of F/J?
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cloudboy
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RE: A321LR With 5-across Twin-aisle Economy Layout?

Tue Dec 29, 2015 4:48 pm

Quoting lightsaber (Reply 47):
No economy passenger would pay for more isle anyway. What is the point?

Don't many airlines already charge extra for better seats such as aisle seats and seats closer to the front?
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