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RE: Did Boeing Stop B717 Production Too Early?

Thu Dec 31, 2015 9:23 pm

Quoting apfpilot (Reply 30):
But why is that a bad thing, you haven't provided any evidence.
Quoting strfyr51 (Reply 41):
the service ceiling has nothing to DO with the airplane's performance.
It's the internals like pressurization and just how high you can maintain an 8 psi cabin differential.

Cruise efficiency is determined by outside air density. As one climbs, the density drops, therefor less thrust is required. Since the outside pressure and density are dropping, with the temperature a constant in the stratosphere, a higher wing loading means about 10% more fuel burn at the 2nd half of cruise.

Getting to higher cruise altitude has *everything* to do with airframe performance after the 1st hour.
I worked on an engine where a 3" reduction in fan diameter reduced weight enough to allow earlier step climbs (and a reduction in nacelle drag and fractional improvement in fan diameter) had zero impact on long range mission fuel burn and improved shorter mission economics.

But it was because of a higher cruise altitude that mattered. Douglas built great planes. To achieve their cycle life they built a bit heavier *and* designed for a lower cruise altitude. This sacrificed range. At the end of the T-tails sales life, the lack of that little bit of range hurt sales. Because of the lower cruise altitude, more diversion fuel is required further eating into range.

Maximum cruise altitude in service is limited by the achieved climb rate at a given cruise weight. You are not allowed to carry passengers until flight test proves at each weight that climb rate. Now, I worked experimental aircraft, so we figured out the number and let another group bless operating altitudes. Its much more fun going beyond the rules.   

Note: Many aircraft are operated in limited service beyond certification limits, but that requires an in cert test pilot.

Quoting Revelation (Reply 44):
When you look at the EJet/CJet market size compared to A320/B737 you can see who is in the right market.

Agreed. The smaller market is that much smaller.

Quoting ltbewr (Reply 45):
It wasn't small enough (under 100) for many 'commuter' airlines so could be operated by lower tier non-mainline (and cheaper) crews.
It was heavier than needed due to it older base engineering for its capacity so not as fuel efficient as 737's/318's.
It was close to some then current versions of the 737 (the weak selling -600) so didn't need the competition.
Many airlines wanted to limit the different types of models of a/c they have. The 717 was just one model too many for airlines.

That sums it up. It was too heavy vs. the E190/E195 which, as we see by the 100 seater *far* outselling the larger frame, was to keep costs down.

For others:
The E190 entry into service in 2004. Is it really any surprise 717 production ended in 2006?
Once a new generation of new small narrowbodies is in the fleet, I expect the resale value of the 717 to decline. Oh, HA needs the quick turn capability. DL will buy them too. But one day DL will buy something else. Just as UA is looking into a new plane, one day DL will too. I see the 717 staying in their fleet, but in the future a low utilization when RASM is elevated. Now, I'm talking future tense after the C-series and E2-190/195 are out in numbers. (Either or... One market segment, it is when quantity is out.)

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RE: Did Boeing Stop B717 Production Too Early?

Thu Dec 31, 2015 9:39 pm

These threads always confuse success in the used market at a small fraction of the new price with continued demand for full-price new aircraft. And this is only the latest in a lot of examples.

Passenger 767-300ERs remain in heavy demand on the used market. And they're still available for sale new. Yet Boeing hasn't sold a new one in over half a decade. There was a boomlet in 757s on the used market as FedEx looked to build up their fleet... that was not a sign Boeing could have sold new 757s if the line had been open. Boeing had to shut down the MD-11 line well over a decade ago, and yet it's only in the last few years that MD-11s have started to sit in significant numbers.
 
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RE: Did Boeing Stop B717 Production Too Early?

Thu Dec 31, 2015 9:48 pm

If memory serves, the 717/MD-95's original target market/mission was to be newer replacements of older DC-9s, 732s & F100s that many airlines were still flying at the time. What worked against it was that by the time the 717 was launched; many airlines wound up using smaller RJs (which had just entered the market) on routes/markets previously served by those 100-seaters.

In the U.S., the only customers that went for the 717 were ones looking for direct replacements for their older DC-9s (FL, HA, TW & YX). Other DC-9 carriers (at least in the U.S.) either opted for smaller RJs (DL & US) or simply kept their older DC-9s (NW's owned all their 9s so they were cheap to fly as long as fuel prices remained low).

IIRC, while the 717 had a weight advantage over its 736 & A318 rivals; that advantage was outweighed by the fact that the type had no larger (nor smaller) sister planes in its fleet (i.e., it was an orphan). In contrast, as long as Boeing & Airbus are still making other variants of its 737 & A319/320/321 families; both of them can conceivably halt production of the pint-sized 736/A318 for a while and restart it should demand rebound.

While one could argue that the larger E-jets (flown by both mainline & regional carriers) signed the 717's production death warrant; IMHO the real reason it died was because AA cancelled its inherited order (including frames yet to be produced/delivered) from TW. The supposed break-even production figure for the 717 was 200 frames. On paper & prior to the AA/TW merger; such a figure was indeed obtainable, especially if one factored in the option orders that were on the books at the time.

Had AA continued with the TW order and ultimately liked the plane; such might have stimulated additional orders from either it or other carriers (especially the legacies). The fact that no other legacy carrier (except TW) went for & backed the 717 certainly hurt its sales.

The 717 was basically a plane that rolled out either too late (after the RJ boom hit) or too early (before carriers started dropping 50-seat RJs).
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RE: Did Boeing Stop B717 Production Too Early?

Thu Dec 31, 2015 11:01 pm

Quoting DfwRevolution (Reply 49):
No, I don't because the CRJ-900/1000 and E190 are all 80-100 seat aircraft in the real-world. Only the E195 is in the same class as the 100-125 seat 717-200. Embraer has sold a whopping 165 of the E195. Not much better than the 717-200 itself.

Agree. Note HA has standardized the 717s at 128 seats in two classes (F, Y) and DL at 110 in three classes (F, Y+, Y).

Quoting DfwRevolution (Reply 49):
Look at development cost per airplane, for instance.

Also note that the CSeries is years late and needed the local government to bail it out for it to make it to market.

Quoting lightsaber (Reply 50):
Getting to higher cruise altitude has *everything* to do with airframe performance after the 1st hour.
I worked on an engine where a 3" reduction in fan diameter reduced weight enough to allow earlier step climbs (and a reduction in nacelle drag and fractional improvement in fan diameter) had zero impact on long range mission fuel burn and improved shorter mission economics.

But it was because of a higher cruise altitude that mattered. Douglas built great planes. To achieve their cycle life they built a bit heavier *and* designed for a lower cruise altitude. This sacrificed range. At the end of the T-tails sales life, the lack of that little bit of range hurt sales. Because of the lower cruise altitude, more diversion fuel is required further eating into range.

Thanks for the great insights! The much appreciated Douglas durability comes at a cost. Nothing is free.

Also higher altitudes give you better opportunities for better ATC treatment than do the lower ones.
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RE: Did Boeing Stop B717 Production Too Early?

Fri Jan 01, 2016 12:30 am

Quoting seabosdca (Reply 51):

These threads always confuse success in the used market at a small fraction of the new price with continued demand for full-price new aircraft. And this is only the latest in a lot of examples.

Passenger 767-300ERs remain in heavy demand on the used market. And they're still available for sale new. Yet Boeing hasn't sold a new one in over half a decade

More like a year and a half...
 
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RE: Did Boeing Stop B717 Production Too Early?

Fri Jan 01, 2016 2:33 am

Quoting PHLBOS (Reply 52):
IIRC, while the 717 had a weight advantage over its 736 & A318 rivals; that advantage was outweighed by the fact that the type had no larger (nor smaller) sister planes in its fleet (i.e., it was an orphan). In contrast, as long as Boeing & Airbus are still making other variants of its 737 & A319/320/321 families; both of them can conceivably halt production of the pint-sized 736/A318 for a while and restart it should demand rebound.

Evidence for this is the fact that Airbus sold one A318 (I assume as business jet) in 2015, 2 in 2014 and none in 2013 and 2012. This would not be possible if it was not just another variant of the A320 built on the same production line.
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RE: Did Boeing Stop B717 Production Too Early?

Fri Jan 01, 2016 4:16 am

Quoting strfyr51 (Reply 41):
the service ceiling has nothing to DO with the airplane's performance.
It's the internals like pressurization and just how high you can maintain an 8 psi cabin differential.
So it's the air cycle machines and the cabin differential pressure system architecture that would basically determine the service ceiling of the airplane.
Quoting TZTriStar500 (Reply 48):
This is completely false. The aircraft service ceiling has everything to do with performance and a calculation based off of aircraft weight, thrust, and wing lift. Its generally set when the max rate of climb is .5 m/s or 100 ft/min. What you are talking about is cabin ceiling which is determined by pressurization system performance and the pressure differential the fuselage pressure shell can handle and a trade off with fatigue life.

It's not false at all TZ, and you're both correct.

A real life example for pressurization purposes is the Boeing 747-8i - with a service ceiling of 43,100, is 2,000 less than previous 747s with a service ceiling of 45,100. Part of the reason for this was concerns over depressurization - useful consciousness at FL450 is only about 30 seconds. Also, there are concerns about whether or not the aircraft can be safely descended to breathable atmosphere quickly enough - that's another reason that drove lower ceilings than the plane was physically capable of flying.

Service ceiling is not the end-all-be-all of wing performance. Many factors come into play in determining the ultimate certified ceiling of an aircraft in service.
 
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RE: Did Boeing Stop B717 Production Too Early?

Fri Jan 01, 2016 5:13 am

Quoting Siren (Reply 56):
It's not false at all TZ, and you're both correct.

A real life example for pressurization purposes is the Boeing 747-8i - with a service ceiling of 43,100, is 2,000 less than previous 747s with a service ceiling of 45,100. Part of the reason for this was concerns over depressurization - useful consciousness at FL450 is only about 30 seconds. Also, there are concerns about whether or not the aircraft can be safely descended to breathable atmosphere quickly enough - that's another reason that drove lower ceilings than the plane was physically capable of flying.

Service ceiling is not the end-all-be-all of wing performance. Many factors come into play in determining the ultimate certified ceiling of an aircraft in service.

This is getting off topic, but my description of service ceiling is the aeronautical engineering definition and the basic calculation has nothing to do with the pressurization system of an aircraft or if its even pressurized at all. There are obviously other factors that come in that affect the maximum operating ceiling.

To the 747 specifically, I question your explanation for the reduced max operating ceiling of the 747-8i series without some published source. Per the 747 TCDS, the 747LCF is also at 43,100 and actually the 747-8F is at 42,100. I believe these to be more due to payload and fatigue life considerations than anything to do with decompression concerns.
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RE: Did Boeing Stop B717 Production Too Early?

Fri Jan 01, 2016 6:04 am

Quoting UA444 (Reply 54):

More like a year and a half...

The last order was LAN's on 27 Dec 2011 (which was actually later than I remembered).
 
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RE: Did Boeing Stop B717 Production Too Early?

Fri Jan 01, 2016 6:43 am

Did Boeing close the 717 line too early? Probably. The decision to terminate the program and rely on a single family in the 737 effectively ceded much of the narrow-body market-share. But the problem begins with Boeing's reluctance to deliver on MDC's planned family for the MD-95. In that sense, they were doomed from the start. Does Boeing regret closing the line early? No, it was a self fulfilling prophecy.

One thing is an absolute certainty. If the design was rolled out as the MD-95 and supported by McDonnell Douglas, the production run would have easily exceeded 8 years and 156 copies.   

Quoting homsar (Reply 34):
(especially since Delta almost certainly wouldn't be interested in the 717 if they had to spend $60 million for each plane).

Where in the world did you get that number? Boeing were selling the 717 for $25 million per. And this was a price increase from what the MD-95 was being offered at.

Quoting PSU.DTW.SCE (Reply 35):
The cost to maintain minimum production rate to keep the supply chain intact was not there and was not going to be there.

The 717 was one of the most cost efficient aircraft in the market. It broke even at 150 copies.

Quoting lightsaber (Reply 38):
High wing loading killed the MD-90.

The MD-90 would have benefitted from a new, larger wing in the form of higher cruise altitude at max weight. But I would hesitate to say that it's MD-80 wing effectively "killed it."

Quoting Pu (Reply 47):
Part of this 717 story plays into how A & B completely ignored the regional market, thus creating two competitors who are now poaching into the territory of "mainline" size aircraft.

          

Bingo. There is a reflexive tendency to rehash the same old sales and perceived performance shortcomings in these threads. And in doing so, this is the bigger picture item some folks are missing.

Quoting lightsaber (Reply 50):
I expect the resale value of the 717 to decline.

It has to decline. It has surged passed even used 77Es of similar vintage. I'm not sure it can climb any further.

Quoting DfwRevolution (Reply 23):
The 717 had to cover all of the costs for an airplane program. To be successful, it needed to be selling in the hundreds per year.

As noted earlier, the MD-95 program was extremely cost efficient. It was one of the positives that came out of TQMS.

Quoting PHLBOS (Reply 52):
IMHO the real reason it died was because AA cancelled its inherited order (including frames yet to be produced/delivered) from TW. The supposed break-even production figure for the 717 was 200 frames. On paper & prior to the AA/TW merger; such a figure was indeed obtainable, especially if one factored in the option orders that were on the books at the time.

This is a valid point, but as another poster noted Boeing were unwilling to re-negotiate the lease rates. The big question is why? AA were very loyal to Boeing at the time and were in better financial shape than TW. Conceivably, AA would have replaced their 75 F100s with 717s. The lost TW order as a result of AA's acquisition resulted in an estimated 50-100 less 717s produced.

Quoting Okie (Reply 22):
They could not even get interest of NW a well known DC9 operator.

NW was never going to order the 717 from Boeing. NW had virtually no relationship with Boeing, outside of a 757 top-off orders and later the 753. The 744 was by necessity.
FWIW, it was within a year of Boeing's announced acquisition of MDC that the DC-9s were given a life-extension at NW and the A319s ordered. Circumstantially, if HS agrees on closing the big US order, I believe in time NW follows suit if similar terms were offered.
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RE: Did Boeing Stop B717 Production Too Early?

Fri Jan 01, 2016 6:59 am

Quoting TrijetsRMissed (Reply 59):
Did Boeing close the 717 line too early? Probably. The decision to terminate the program and rely on a single family in the 737 effectively ceded much of the narrow-body market-share. But the problem begins with Boeing's reluctance to deliver on MDC's planned family for the MD-95.

except MCD's leaders became Boeing board members and pushed the production termination..

Funny people blame the manufacturer for perceived shortsightedness, but never blame the airlines for their shortsightedness in not buying more 717s, MD12s, 757's etc when the manufacturer indicated the line would close if they didn't.
 
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RE: Did Boeing Stop B717 Production Too Early?

Fri Jan 01, 2016 7:22 am

Quoting kanban (Reply 60):

except MCD's leaders became Boeing board members and pushed the production termination..

That's not an except, that's an in addition to. Did you know that US were ready to sign a 100 aircraft order for the MD-95 in the fall of 1996? But at the final minute Harry Stoneceipher vetoed the deal and refused to approve what had already been agreed to verbally. Know why? Because he knew he was about to become one of the Boeing Executives you speak of. Of course US never ordered a single 736, or any 737NG for that matter...
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RE: Did Boeing Stop B717 Production Too Early?

Fri Jan 01, 2016 3:22 pm

Quoting AngMoh (Reply 55):
Evidence for this is the fact that Airbus sold one A318 (I assume as business jet) in 2015, 2 in 2014 and none in 2013 and 2012. This would not be possible if it was not just another variant of the A320 built on the same production line.

Yet the mediocre sales also shows why it was a good decision for A and B to keep out of that market. Airbus not only built the A318 but qualified two different engines on it. I doubt they've made money on it.

Quoting seabosdca (Reply 58):
Quoting UA444 (Reply 54):

More like a year and a half...

The last order was LAN's on 27 Dec 2011 (which was actually later than I remembered).

Yes, that was the last pax order. Of course FX has been ordering freighters, current count is 106 IIRC.

Quoting TrijetsRMissed (Reply 61):
Did you know that US were ready to sign a 100 aircraft order for the MD-95 in the fall of 1996? But at the final minute Harry Stoneceipher vetoed the deal and refused to approve what had already been agreed to verbally. Know why? Because he knew he was about to become one of the Boeing Executives you speak of. Of course US never ordered a single 736, or any 737NG for that matter...

Yet the same HS kept the 717 alive till 2006?
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RE: Did Boeing Stop B717 Production Too Early?

Fri Jan 01, 2016 3:36 pm

Was it possible for a pilot to be checked out on both the MD-80 and the MD-95/Boeing 717? I know that AA returned the TWA 717s because of the high lease rates and the fact that it owned most of its F100s.

But, it seems to me that if pilots could fly both 737 Classics and 737NGs, as well as 757s and 767s, then having a pilot group that could fly both the 717 and the MD-80 could have been a large cost savings.

A friend at AA explained to me that, when AA signed its long-term deal with Boeing, the plan was to replace the F100s, the MD-80s, and the 727-200s with the 737-600, -700, and -800. (This was before airlines discovered that the -600 only made sense on long, thin routes). The idea was that having one pilot group for all 737s meant lower training costs and the need for fewer reserve pilots than having pilot groups for 3 different aircraft types.
 
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RE: Did Boeing Stop B717 Production Too Early?

Fri Jan 01, 2016 4:18 pm

Quoting TrijetsRMissed (Reply 59):

Quoting homsar (Reply 34):
(especially since Delta almost certainly wouldn't be interested in the 717 if they had to spend $60 million for each plane).

Where in the world did you get that number? Boeing were selling the 717 for $25 million per. And this was a price increase from what the MD-95 was being offered at.

I'm talking about 2015 (now 2016), not 1998.

Assuming the 717's prices grew at a similar rate to the 737's over the past decade plus, the list price would likely be around $60 million today.

Every plane costs more to buy new today than it did in the 1990s.
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RE: Did Boeing Stop B717 Production Too Early?

Tue Jan 05, 2016 4:19 am

Quoting Revelation (Reply 62):
Yet the same HS kept the 717 alive till 2006?

Good question. As a contingency to the merger approval, Boeing had to agree to fulfill all outstanding McDonnell Douglas orders. There was a campaign to cancel MDC orders and convert to Boeing. DL's MD-90 order was the largest chip to fall. But J7/FL would not bite on canceling the MD-95. Thus, the 717 was launched and production maintained until break-even, which was accomplished with the YX order.

Quoting ckfred (Reply 63):

Was it possible for a pilot to be checked out on both the MD-80 and the MD-95/Boeing 717?

Technically, yes. But with the burden of continuous crossover training, it would not be economical.

However, it was planned for the MD-90 and MD-95 to to be served by a common pilot category. The MD-90's flightdeck would have eventually mirrored what became the 717 by 1999-2000, had MDC continued. (This is separate from the Saudi EFD). The legacy EFIS setup would have remained an option for carriers grandfathering their MD-90 fleets with EFIS MD-80s.

Quoting homsar (Reply 64):
I'm talking about 2015 (now 2016), not 1998. Assuming the 717's prices grew at a similar rate to the 737's over the past decade plus, the list price would likely be around $60 million today.

I'm not talking about 1998. I'm talking about 2004-05. If you think that the price of a 717 would more than double in 10 years, you are mistaken. List price of $60m today when it was $25m in 2005? No chance.   
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RE: Did Boeing Stop B717 Production Too Early?

Tue Jan 05, 2016 5:01 am

Quoting TrijetsRMissed (Reply 65):
I'm not talking about 1998. I'm talking about 2004-05. If you think that the price of a 717 would more than double in 10 years, you are mistaken. List price of $60m today when it was $25m in 2005? No chance.

The list price of a 717 in 2004 was around $37.5 million, not $25 million as you claim.

http://boeing.mediaroom.com/2004-05-...Order-For-Six-Boeing-717-Airplanes

(Just take the $225 million "list price" value and divide by 6).

Here are a couple other links (from this site) supporting the upper $30s list price from the mid 2000s.

Boeing Historical List Prices (by slimshady May 23 2012 in Civil Aviation)

Boeing Price List (by LUFC Apr 24 2001 in Civil Aviation)

To get to a $60 million price tag, I just took the price inflation of the 737 from 2004 to today and pegged that same rate to the 717.
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RE: Did Boeing Stop B717 Production Too Early?

Tue Jan 05, 2016 6:48 am

MD had several new versions of MD-95 planned. Not only 100-120 seaters, but larger in the MD-90 size category. If they could have given it a new wing, I believe it would have stayed competitive. But it lacked commonality with any other Boeings in production, and Boeing feared it would compete with their own uncompetitive 737-600.. and therefore killed off the superior product. I'll never forgive Boeing for that, and they lost my support forever. But I'm not buying planes, so why should they care.
 
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RE: Did Boeing Stop B717 Production Too Early?

Tue Jan 05, 2016 6:50 am

Quoting seabosdca (Reply 58):

Quoting UA444 (Reply 54):

More like a year and a half...

The last order was LAN's on 27 Dec 2011 (which was actually later than I remembered).

Azerbijan or Uzbekistan ordered a few in 2012.
 
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RE: Did Boeing Stop B717 Production Too Early?

Tue Jan 05, 2016 6:57 am

Quoting UA444 (Reply 68):
Azerbijan or Uzbekistan ordered a few in 2012.

Oh, oops... it's Kazakhstan, and the order was Feb 2012.

Nonetheless my point stands. New-build 767-300ERs remain available, but no one has ordered one in nearly four years. And this is despite the airplane being in hot demand on the used market. There is a huge difference between what makes sense as a new aircraft and what makes sense as a cheap used buy. The 717, subject of this thread, is in high demand right now at $10 million/copy. At $40 million... no way, no how.
 
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RE: Did Boeing Stop B717 Production Too Early?

Tue Jan 05, 2016 2:33 pm

Quoting homsar (Reply 66):
To get to a $60 million price tag, I just took the price inflation of the 737 from 2004 to today and pegged that same rate to the 717.

You must of flunked math because even by your own reasoning the 717 would be selling at a list price of 49.7 million today. Given that Boeing was discounting the price down to 25 million in 2001 we can assume they would be doing the same now, which would bring the price into the range of 35-36 million.
 
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RE: Did Boeing Stop B717 Production Too Early?

Tue Jan 05, 2016 4:19 pm

Quoting seabosdca (Reply 51):
Passenger 767-300ERs remain in heavy demand on the used market. And they're still available for sale new. Yet Boeing hasn't sold a new one in over half a decade.

Air Astana purchased three brand new 767-300ER's in 2014 and 2015. They were the last passenger version built. See the latest edition of Airliner World for an interesting article and details.
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RE: Did Boeing Stop B717 Production Too Early?

Tue Jan 05, 2016 4:56 pm

Quoting DTWPurserBoy (Reply 71):

Those were delivered in 2014/15. They were ordered in 2012, as my post directly above indicates.
 
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RE: Did Boeing Stop B717 Production Too Early?

Tue Jan 05, 2016 8:21 pm

Quoting dtw9 (Reply 70):
You must of flunked math because even by your own reasoning the 717 would be selling at a list price of 49.7 million today.

The 737-700 list price in 2004 started at $50 million, today it's $80 million. That's a 60% increase. Apply a 60% increase to $37.5 million, and you get $60 million.

Thanks for playing, though.

Also, it's must have. Or did you flunk English, too?
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RE: Did Boeing Stop B717 Production Too Early?

Tue Jan 05, 2016 8:32 pm

Makes me wonder if there would be a market for a 767-300ERneo. Update the wing, use composites. It is still a very popular plane for trans-Atlantic flying. Pax love the 2-3-2 configuration.

Now I could really go off thread and talk about a 767-400neo.....but that would get some folks all riled up.
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RE: Did Boeing Stop B717 Production Too Early?

Tue Jan 05, 2016 11:47 pm

Quoting DTWPurserBoy (Reply 74):
Makes me wonder if there would be a market for a 767-300ERneo.

JoeCanuck has been beating the drum for this concept. I disagree with him; I think the 767's 7Y layout creates a fundamental space efficiency problem that has the effect of making the passenger 767 just too heavy for its capacity in today's market. I think that's why the freighter is still a big success while the passenger version is moribund. The 787-8 would still be a more attractive product even with new engines and wingtip devices on the 767.
 
dtw9
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RE: Did Boeing Stop B717 Production Too Early?

Wed Jan 06, 2016 12:00 am

Quoting homsar (Reply 73):
The 737-700 list price in 2004 started at $50 million, today it's $80 million. That's a 60% increase. Apply a 60% increase to $37.5 million, and you get $60 million.

Try comparing apples to apples. 737-600 price increase from 2001 to 2012 49mil to 59 mil, that's 20.40 %. Broken down that's an increase of 0.833 per year. Even if you double that increase to 1.6 percent from 2012 to 2015, you still aren't anywhere near 60mil. So keep dreaming
 
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hOMSaR
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RE: Did Boeing Stop B717 Production Too Early?

Wed Jan 06, 2016 12:14 am

I was comparing with the 737-700 because I was doing a hypothetical "today" example, and there is no 737-600 price today because Boeing dropped the model. In any event, my point stands, there's no demand for a new-build 717. There was barely any demand when it was in production, and whoever wants them today at used prices wouldn't want them at new prices.
I was raised by a cup of coffee.
 
dtw9
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RE: Did Boeing Stop B717 Production Too Early?

Wed Jan 06, 2016 12:46 am

Quoting homsar (Reply 77):
I was comparing with the 737-700 because I was doing a hypothetical "today" example, and there is no 737-600 price today because Boeing dropped the model. In any event, my point stands, there's no demand for a new-build 717. There was barely any demand when it was in production, and whoever wants them today at used prices wouldn't want them at new prices.

There is no 717 either, so the price comparison between the 736 and 717 is all hypothetical, but you still have to compare the two. It's also no secret that there was zero demand for just the -200, but had Boeing gone ahead with the -300, I believe it would be a different story today. So while it's nice to dream of what could have been, the reality is, it's just a dream
 
UA444
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RE: Did Boeing Stop B717 Production Too Early?

Wed Jan 06, 2016 2:17 am

Quoting DTWPurserBoy (Reply 74):

I think a reengineed 767 would be a great product and provide a cheaper, lighter alternative to customers who don't need the 788 capability. It might be the ideal true replacement for UA and DL.
 
TrijetsRMissed
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RE: Did Boeing Stop B717 Production Too Early?

Wed Jan 06, 2016 5:23 am

Quoting homsar (Reply 66):

You're right. I was remembering this:

Quote:
And when air travel slowed significantly after the 2001 terrorist attacks, orders dwindled to a trickle -- even though, analysts said, Boeing slashed the price of the 717 to $25 million from $35 million.
Boeing Is Closing an Era in Aviation

But I still think $60m would be a stretch today. It's not as simple as backing into the numbers based on 73G trends.

Quoting dtw9 (Reply 76):
Try comparing apples to apples. 737-600 price increase from 2001 to 2012 49mil to 59 mil, that's 20.40 %. Broken down that's an increase of 0.833 per year. Even if you double that increase to 1.6 percent from 2012 to 2015, you still aren't anywhere near 60mil.

  
There's nothing quite like a trijet.
 
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JetBuddy
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RE: Did Boeing Stop B717 Production Too Early?

Wed Jan 06, 2016 10:07 am

Quoting dtw9 (Reply 78):
There is no 717 either, so the price comparison between the 736 and 717 is all hypothetical, but you still have to compare the two. It's also no secret that there was zero demand for just the -200, but had Boeing gone ahead with the -300, I believe it would be a different story today. So while it's nice to dream of what could have been, the reality is, it's just a dream

I agree with you.

Quoting UA444 (Reply 79):
I think a reengineed 767 would be a great product and provide a cheaper, lighter alternative to customers who don't need the 788 capability. It might be the ideal true replacement for UA and DL.

Are you thinking about the -200 or -300 variants? I think both of them would be too heavy.
 
Bambel
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RE: Did Boeing Stop B717 Production Too Early?

Wed Jan 06, 2016 3:48 pm

Quoting JetBuddy (Reply 67):
But it lacked commonality with any other Boeings in production, and Boeing feared it would compete with their own uncompetitive 737-600.. and therefore killed off the superior product.

I don't understand that. If Boeings original product wasn't competitive and they bought a company that has one.. what's the deal? And: i often read here that this merger was more a "reverse takeover". The MDD guys run the show afterwards? Why should they prefer to kill their "own" baby?

b.
 
toxtethogrady
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RE: Did Boeing Stop B717 Production Too Early?

Wed Jan 06, 2016 3:49 pm

Volotea announced theirs are going back on the market. I don't think there's a need for any new ones.
 
DeltaMD95
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RE: Did Boeing Stop B717 Production Too Early?

Thu Jan 07, 2016 5:59 am

Quoting MD80 (Reply 13):
One of the ideas was the possible transfer of the MD-80-wing for a stretched Boeing 717.

Btw. on some old renderings of the MD-95, you can see that McDonnell Douglas earmarked an "MD-80-style" wing:

It would have been interesting to see how well the MD95-50 would have done performance wise and in the marketplace. Based on industry trends, it seems like that would have been the winning variant among the MD95 family.

Quoting Bambel (Reply 82):
i often read here that this merger was more a "reverse takeover". The MDD guys run the show afterwards? Why should they prefer to kill their "own" baby?

IIRC, the legacy Boeing guys still outnumbered the McDD guys after the merger. But even then, the McDD guys were from the McDonnell side of the house. So the MD95 of Douglas lineage probably wasn't "their own baby" in their eyes, so to speak.

Quoting toxtethogrady (Reply 83):

Volotea announced theirs are going back on the market. I don't think there's a need for any new ones.

The only reason why they're going back on the market is because Volotea couldn't get more of them. They are one of 4-5 airlines that probably would have ordered new build 717s today if it were possible.
Did you know that a Boeing 717-200 is really a McDonnell Douglas MD95-30? ;-)
 
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MD80
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RE: Did Boeing Stop B717 Production Too Early?

Thu Jan 07, 2016 4:18 pm

Quoting DeltaMD95 (Reply 84):
It would have been interesting to see how well the MD95-50 would have done performance wise and in the marketplace. Based on industry trends, it seems like that would have been the winning variant among the MD95 family.

I think that the MD-95-50 would have done nicely with many operators, mostly airlines with a (in many cases) long tradition of operating Douglas aircraft.

The longer-fuselage MD-95 could have been the winning variant due to even lower operating costs on a per-seat basis. IMO, the MD-95 would have been far better suited for typical short range missions compared to the Boeing 737-700 or Airbus A319 but would have lacked useable range with full payload on longer missions with no changes tot he wings. So the idea to attach MD-80-wings was a possible way to improve performance dramatically.

Btw. the old rendering not only shows the MD-80-style wing but also the engine shape for an improved version oft the JT8D-200 and not the BR715.

There were a number of potential customers for this version, mostly in combination with the standard MD-95-30.

Quoting DeltaMD95 (Reply 84):
The only reason why they're going back on the market is because Volotea couldn't get more of them. They are one of 4-5 airlines that probably would have ordered new build 717s today if it were possible.

  

This seems to be the main reason. Volotea´s decision was a logical one due to lack of additional Boeing 717s to fuel their expansion. Used A319s are widely available and the large population of A32S-aircraft is also a very positive factor.

Regards
Dedicated to the MD-80, MD-90, MD-95, and DC-9: www.MD-80.com
 
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Polot
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RE: Did Boeing Stop B717 Production Too Early?

Thu Jan 07, 2016 4:55 pm

Quoting DeltaMD95 (Reply 84):
The only reason why they're going back on the market is because Volotea couldn't get more of them. They are one of 4-5 airlines that probably would have ordered new build 717s today if it were possible.

Assuming they are interested in new builds at all...

I think their decision to add used A319s is telling- they appear to following the G4 method (pick up cheap used aircraft, not ordering new aircraft).

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