Moderators: jsumali2, richierich, ua900, PanAm_DC10, hOMSaR

 
C767P
Posts: 309
Joined: Wed Oct 15, 2008 4:11 am

RE: Alaska Lands On SEA Taxiway

Wed Dec 30, 2015 5:02 pm

Quoting RayChuang (Reply 34):

In the end, what SEA needs to do is put special markings on Taxiway Tango that clearly differentiate the taxiway from Runway 16C. They were very lucky there wasn't another plane taxiing on that taxiway.

I don’t think it is a paint on pavement issue. These pilots know what a taxiway looks like, despite having just landed on one.

Quoting trnswrld (Reply 39):
Wow really? I can only hope me and my family aren't on that plane. Apparently this seems like a normal thing to some people.

I am not saying it is normal. But these two pilots are human. This sounds like a fatigue issue.

I don’t think the flying public realizes how serious pilots take the job and rest. It is not as easy as everyone wants to make it though. If you told these two pilots they would land on a taxiway upon arrival to SEA due to fatigue, they would have not operated the flight. But they use their best judgment at the time.
 
mtnwest1979
Topic Author
Posts: 2211
Joined: Fri Nov 18, 2005 4:23 am

RE: Alaska Lands On SEA Taxiway

Wed Dec 30, 2015 5:20 pm

Quoting RayChuang (Reply 34):
In the end, what SEA needs to do is put special markings on Taxiway Tango that clearly differentiate the taxiway from Runway 16C. They were very lucky there wasn't another plane taxiing on that taxiway.

Well they could just but a line of lights at the end of the taxiway that illuminate yellow 24/7. Similar to the green lights at the end of the runway. Visible to any arriving a/c that haspilots looking out the window.

Too bad there were no videos of this arrival. Wonder what the reaction would be to anyone that knows of such things,
of what occurred?
Riddle: Which lasts longer, a start-up airline or a start-up football league?
 
Toni_
Posts: 275
Joined: Sat Apr 06, 2002 8:56 am

RE: Alaska Lands On SEA Taxiway

Wed Dec 30, 2015 5:48 pm

Quoting wilcharl (Reply 43):
I love how the experts on the forum call the crew "dumb" or say they know the difference. Events are never caused by a single action. Its always a series of actions that lead up to the event.

At face value, they were cleared to land on one runway, and a last minute change was made to a different runway. Human factors can be at play there.

Another factor was the recent repaving.

Fatigue may or may not be a factor

Glare, seat position, and an infantine number of things could have caused the event.

Lets not play Monday morning Q-back on this one


Good to read some common sense in this thread. It's the toughest challenge for the users on this site. People just refuse to sit tight and wait for answers.

And to add another factor to your list. The landing occurred at 8:31am. Since the sunrise for Seattle on december 19th was at 7:53am (2 days away from the shortest day of the year), they probably didn't land in bright and sunny conditions.
 
scrumbum
Posts: 21
Joined: Wed Apr 28, 2010 4:21 am

RE: Alaska Lands On SEA Taxiway

Wed Dec 30, 2015 5:59 pm

Quoting gunsontheroof (Reply 38):
I'm pretty sure that was one of the taxiway T landing attempts. There really isn't a highway around SEA that could conceivably be mistaken for a runway.

According to this article, the Aeroflot aircraft was 1 mile West of SEA on first landing attempt. That would put it in the general area of highway 509 as well as 1st Ave S.

http://community.seattletimes.nwsour...rchive/?date=19970920&slug=2561412
 
IPFreely
Posts: 2653
Joined: Sun Dec 24, 2006 8:26 am

RE: Alaska Lands On SEA Taxiway

Wed Dec 30, 2015 6:37 pm

Quoting wilcharl (Reply 43):

I love how the experts on the forum call the crew "dumb" or say they know the difference

These so-called experts are either bad pilots, or more likely, wanna-be pilots. Their statements make that very obvious.
 
indcwby
Posts: 332
Joined: Sat Dec 18, 2010 7:32 pm

RE: Alaska Lands On SEA Taxiway

Wed Dec 30, 2015 6:50 pm

"This is not a new problem at Sea-Tac. There have been cases going back to the 1990s of aircraft inadvertently landing on what's called 'taxiway tango,'" said aviation safety expert Todd Curtis.

Curtis says the landing instructions for Sea-Tac warn pilots about the potential for confusion on taxiways.

"So although this was a dangerous condition, a condition that should be avoided, it's something that can be learned from," said Curtis.

Quoting IPFreely (Reply 10):
Approach end of 19L/19R in Las Vegas...

You would think if you had enough issues with Taxiway Tango, you would adopt what Las Vegas.... Just my opinion.
A319, A320, A330, A340, B717, B727, B737, B747, B757, B767, B777, CRJ7, DC10, MD88, MD11, E145, E175
"Always remember that you fly an airplane with your head, not your hands."
 
A332DTW
Posts: 921
Joined: Tue Jan 06, 2015 3:54 am

RE: Alaska Lands On SEA Taxiway

Wed Dec 30, 2015 6:54 pm

Quoting wilcharl (Reply 43):
I love how the experts on the forum call the crew "dumb" or say they know the difference. Events are never caused by a single action. Its always a series of actions that lead up to the event.
Quoting IPFreely (Reply 55):
These so-called experts are either bad pilots, or more likely, wanna-be pilots. Their statements make that very obvious.

Or people like yourselves just don't understand how serious of a situation like this is. I'm certainly not claiming to be an expert, nor am I claiming to be a perfect pilot. The matter of fact is if a pilot is so fatigued and non-attentive, to a point where he or she cannot tell the difference between a taxiway and runway as they approach the threshold, during a phase in flight where he or she should be at their highest level of situational awareness, then that crew should not have been in that flight deck in the first place.

[Edited 2015-12-30 10:55:31]
 
747megatop
Posts: 1785
Joined: Wed May 23, 2007 8:22 am

RE: Alaska Lands On SEA Taxiway

Wed Dec 30, 2015 6:54 pm

Quoting Prost (Reply 1):
this could have been a tragedy, but it wasn't.

The question is, does it take a Tenerife type tragedy for the industry to wake up? Obviously, like you mentioned, additional training and investigations are in order. But, looks like additional measures (training etc.) taken up until now haven't worked and i am wondering if this is one area which could be tackled aggressively in a proactive manner without waiting for a tragedy to happen. Perhaps some measures like coloring the taxiways with bright red paint or introducing slight S turns like jetblastdubai has suggested in reply 2 and other well thought out measures to clearly distinguish a taxiway even in night time is in order?
 
PlanesNTrains
Posts: 9524
Joined: Tue Feb 01, 2005 4:19 pm

RE: Alaska Lands On SEA Taxiway

Wed Dec 30, 2015 6:58 pm

Quoting gunsontheroof (Reply 38):
I'm pretty sure that was one of the taxiway T landing attempts. There really isn't a highway around SEA that could conceivably be mistaken for a runway

That's what made it so crazy.

-Dave
-Dave


MAX’d out on MAX threads. If you are starting a thread, and it’s about the MAX - stop. There’s already a thread that covers it.
 
User avatar
jetblastdubai
Posts: 2037
Joined: Sun Aug 18, 2013 10:23 am

RE: Alaska Lands On SEA Taxiway

Wed Dec 30, 2015 7:19 pm

Quoting 747megatop (Reply 58):
introducing slight S turns

Think DWC will have any issues with unfamiliar or even local pilots distinguishing a runway from a parallel taxiway in all weather conditions?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Al_Makt...rld_Central_Airport_2_Imresolt.jpg
It sounds like thunder but the way this year is going, it could be Godzilla!
 
seven3seven
Posts: 294
Joined: Wed Apr 27, 2005 6:55 am

RE: Alaska Lands On SEA Taxiway

Wed Dec 30, 2015 7:22 pm

Quoting A332DTW (Reply 57):
e he or she should be at their highest level of situational awareness, then that crew should not have been in that flight deck in the first place.

Hey joe Montana it's not Monday morning anymore
My views are mine alone and are not that of any of my fellow employees, officers, or directors at my company
 
A332DTW
Posts: 921
Joined: Tue Jan 06, 2015 3:54 am

RE: Alaska Lands On SEA Taxiway

Wed Dec 30, 2015 7:25 pm

Quoting seven3seven (Reply 61):
Hey joe Montana it's not Monday morning anymore

Ok, for 1 I honestly don't understand your idioms.
And 2, are you actually going to contribute something to this discussion, or continue with 5th grade insults?
 
IPFreely
Posts: 2653
Joined: Sun Dec 24, 2006 8:26 am

RE: Alaska Lands On SEA Taxiway

Wed Dec 30, 2015 7:31 pm

Quoting A332DTW (Reply 62):
Ok, for 1 I honestly don't understand your idioms.

That's okay. Everyone else does.
 
User avatar
wilcharl
Posts: 1179
Joined: Sun Jun 25, 2000 11:19 am

RE: Alaska Lands On SEA Taxiway

Wed Dec 30, 2015 7:38 pm

Quoting A332DTW (Reply 62):
Ok, for 1 I honestly don't understand your idioms.
And 2, are you actually going to contribute something to this discussion, or continue with 5th grade insults

Let me give you some more details:

Joe Montana was an American Football Quarterback. Football is played on a Sunday (generally) So Monday Morning Quarterbacking is where people who were not there, armchair experts , like yourself try to analyze and question the decisions made on the football field.

I would venture to guess that 737 is a high time pilot (I'd even go as far to say he flies the 737) His comment is that there is enough non-pilots on this forum that are so called "aviation experts" trying to make judgment on something they know nothing about and were not there for.

Its so easy for an arm-chair pilot or arm-chair ceo to question decisions of the professionals on this forum, but unless you are out there doing it day in day out, you really don't have enough knowledge or skills to make an valid judgment. Even then if you aren't the pilot him(her) self that was in the cockpit that day then really you can't draw judgment.

Not sure how that was a "5th grade insult"
 
A332DTW
Posts: 921
Joined: Tue Jan 06, 2015 3:54 am

RE: Alaska Lands On SEA Taxiway

Wed Dec 30, 2015 7:43 pm

Quoting IPFreely (Reply 63):
That's okay. Everyone else does.

That's okay. I'm sure your response would be different if it was your family member or your own ass on a seat in that plane.

So why was there not such a timid reaction on the crew of the Kathmandu excursion or that of the QR incident at MIA? So a crew has to actually crash their aircraft, or come in contact with something in a near-miss before its ok to scrutinize their actions. Makes a whole lot of sense.  
 
A332DTW
Posts: 921
Joined: Tue Jan 06, 2015 3:54 am

RE: Alaska Lands On SEA Taxiway

Wed Dec 30, 2015 7:46 pm

Quoting wilcharl (Reply 64):
like yourself try to analyze and question the decisions made on the football field.

You know this is a aviation discussion forum, right? That kind of stuff happens here.

BTW, I don't bother with football. Men running around in tights carrying a ball who insist on calling it football, is not my cup of tea.

Quoting wilcharl (Reply 64):
but unless you are out there doing it day in day out, you really don't have enough knowledge or skills to make an valid judgment

Except that I am out doing it day in and day out.

[Edited 2015-12-30 11:48:01]
 
User avatar
litz
Posts: 2382
Joined: Wed Dec 24, 2003 6:01 am

RE: Alaska Lands On SEA Taxiway

Wed Dec 30, 2015 7:49 pm

Quoting catiii (Reply 4):
Well put. DL had a similar incident where a crew landed a 767ER from Brazil on a taxiway in Atlanta. It happens, usually when "all the holes in the swiss cheese line up." I'd rather see the outcome of the investigation as well.

And consider ... that was at a time where DL probably brought more 767s in and out of ATL than any other airline, at any other airport ...

It can happen to the best trained crews, and at the best airlines safety-wise.

Alaska will investigate, and they will institute whatever changes in training need to happen to prevent a recurrence.
 
PlanesNTrains
Posts: 9524
Joined: Tue Feb 01, 2005 4:19 pm

RE: Alaska Lands On SEA Taxiway

Wed Dec 30, 2015 7:54 pm

Quoting A332DTW (Reply 65):
So why was there not such a timid reaction on the crew of the Kathmandu excursion or that of the QR incident at MIA? So a crew has to actually crash their aircraft, or come in contact with something in a near-miss before its ok to scrutinize their actions. Makes a whole lot of sense.  

I don't disagree with your assessment, but I think the idea being put forth is that yes, they made a mistake, and no, it shouldn't happen, but in the end an argument can be made - in their circumstance - that a few things came together and created a situation that people could possibly understand happening. Again, not ok, but not the end of the world.

"More than likely" he would not have landed had he seen an aircraft ahead. Having said that, we don't know if another aircraft was present and potentially cleared to taxi onto the taxiway just ahead of him. More could have gone wrong of course.

-Dave
-Dave


MAX’d out on MAX threads. If you are starting a thread, and it’s about the MAX - stop. There’s already a thread that covers it.
 
Beatyair
Posts: 856
Joined: Mon Feb 10, 2014 9:09 pm

RE: Alaska Lands On SEA Taxiway

Wed Dec 30, 2015 8:42 pm

Quoting IPFreely (Reply 10):
roach end of 19L/19R in Las Vegas...

Between runways and taxiways should be painted green and taxiway ends should be painted blue. Lights may not be enough.
 
Viscount724
Posts: 19316
Joined: Thu Oct 12, 2006 7:32 pm

RE: Alaska Lands On SEA Taxiway

Wed Dec 30, 2015 9:02 pm

Quoting gunsontheroof (Reply 38):
This is the first time it's happened since the addition of runway 16R/34L several years ago. Prior to the opening of that runway, taxiway T was marked with a large, illuminated "X" as a result of the previous three incidents, which IIRC, were spread over a period of roughly a decade.
Quoting web500sjc (Reply 24):
The Published airport diagram has a note for pilots to not mistake Taxiway T as a landing surface.

Caution notice near upper left.
http://skyvector.com/files/tpp/1513/pdf/00582AD.PDF


Related SEA newspaper item from 2005 after several other incidents.
http://www.seattletimes.com/business...ake-taxiway-for-runway-at-sea-tac/

An AC Jazz Dash 8 did it in 2004, also an AA MD-80. Also several close calls, including a WN 737 in 2005, where the crews realized the problem before touching down and overshot.
 
User avatar
AirlineCritic
Posts: 1781
Joined: Sat Mar 14, 2009 1:07 pm

RE: Alaska Lands On SEA Taxiway

Wed Dec 30, 2015 9:43 pm

One of the problems of a.net is that we're naturally inclined to appreciate airplanes, pilots, etc.

Sometimes this is visible in how we deal with information around incidents or accidents.

For sure, only a fraction of us are actually pilots, aircraft engineers and other professionals.

That does not mean the rest of us have no clue. For sure, we understand that bad things can happen. And yes, we understand that we don't know anything really about an incident until the investigation has run its due course and uncovered the facts.

But still. We have some understanding of the dangerousness of particular types of errors, and the stakes. The number of incidents relating to landings/takeoffs on taxiways or attempts thereof is alarming. In my honest opinion. Also in my opinion, it is just a matter of time until a major accident happens as a part of a taxiway error.

Finally, the safety culture that the aviation industry should be aiming for is the understanding and elimination of situations that can lead to catastrophic consequences. Understanding the reasons for taxiway mistakes and dealing with this industry-wide problem should be a priority.

And I am happy to wait for the results of this investigation, happy to wait for somebody to draw conclusions from a range of incidents world-wide.

But please do not minimise the concern that some of us express on this thread about these incidents, by hiding behind the "you are not professionals, you do not understand" argument. This is a serious matter, and needs serious consideration. Even without knowing what specific issues lead to this particular incident.

Thank you.
 
mtnwest1979
Topic Author
Posts: 2211
Joined: Fri Nov 18, 2005 4:23 am

RE: Alaska Lands On SEA Taxiway

Wed Dec 30, 2015 9:49 pm

Quoting Toni_ (Reply 53):
And to add another factor to your list. The landing occurred at 8:31am. Since the sunrise for Seattle on december 19th was at 7:53am (2 days away from the shortest day of the year), they probably didn't land in bright and sunny conditions.

Well since they claim glare was a factor, must have been somewhat sunny....
Riddle: Which lasts longer, a start-up airline or a start-up football league?
 
PlanesNTrains
Posts: 9524
Joined: Tue Feb 01, 2005 4:19 pm

RE: Alaska Lands On SEA Taxiway

Wed Dec 30, 2015 9:53 pm

Quoting mtnwest1979 (Reply 72):
Well since they claim glare was a factor, must have been somewhat sunny....

Then they got lucky. I think we had close to a month straight of measurable precip. I see it was 50/39 that day, but I was in socal so don't know what the weather was like here in SEA.

-Dave
-Dave


MAX’d out on MAX threads. If you are starting a thread, and it’s about the MAX - stop. There’s already a thread that covers it.
 
C767P
Posts: 309
Joined: Wed Oct 15, 2008 4:11 am

RE: Alaska Lands On SEA Taxiway

Wed Dec 30, 2015 11:09 pm

Quoting A332DTW (Reply 56):
The matter of fact is if a pilot is so fatigued and non-attentive, to a point where he or she cannot tell the difference between a taxiway and runway as they approach the threshold, during a phase in flight where he or she should be at their highest level of situational awareness, then that crew should not have been in that flight deck in the first place.

If it were only so easy as knowing how you will feel the entire flight. Try to estimate how you will feel in 4 hours from now.

Fatigue is not black and white.
 
jetmatt777
Posts: 4598
Joined: Sun Jun 26, 2005 2:16 am

RE: Alaska Lands On SEA Taxiway

Wed Dec 30, 2015 11:35 pm

Quoting AirlineCritic (Reply 71):
That does not mean the rest of us have no clue. For sure, we understand that bad things can happen. And yes, we understand that we don't know anything really about an incident until the investigation has run its due course and uncovered the facts.

I disagree. I feel that more seem to call for the pilot's head before any investigation has occurred.

Same for any event on here...a bad management decision...off with their head. A ramper mistake...off with their head. A mechanic mistake...off with their head.

Accidents and near misses are never acceptable, however in most cases they are not caused by negligence, but just a myriad of contributing factors that all lined up for a moment of time. All it takes is all of the factors to line up for a split second for accidents to happen.

Here is what we know.

* It was an Alaska Air crew -- they are most likely very familiar with SEA as it is their largest hub. Flight crew has most likely landed many, many times at SEA even if it is not the crews domicile or base.

* ATC initially cleared the aircraft to approach and land on 16R. Later on in the final approach, ATC offered the crew 16C. The crew accepted and changed to 16C.

* At 8:30am PST on 19 Dec 2015, the sun was at 4.2° above the horizon at an azimuth of 131°. The aircraft was flying at approximately 160°.The sun was very likely to be shining directly in the crews eyes from a low angle. The sun was also at an angle that would cause a large reflection off of concrete.

* The weather that morning was Broken skies at 2,500 at 7:53am, at 8:37am (4 minutes after the incident) the weather was scattered at 2,200. This may have contributed as the pilots may have been flying briefly in cloudy conditions, to open up to a bright sun in their eyes as they descended lower. It takes time for the eyes to adjust to brighter conditions. There was also rain and mist in the early morning, which would have made the concrete reflect sunlight even more.

Summary: Last minute runway change, low angle of sun reflecting off of wet concrete at a 30-40 degree angle left to right. Would make runway and taxiway markings very difficult to see from some angle. Cloudy skies opening to partly cloudy could offer some eye adjustment lag.

It's completely unfair to scold the crew at this point based on the facts of the day. Especially when none of us were there. The facts that we do know make it seem more likely that this was not a fatigue issue, but a matter of eye deception.
 
User avatar
FredrikHAD
Posts: 453
Joined: Thu Aug 06, 2015 9:44 pm

RE: Alaska Lands On SEA Taxiway

Thu Dec 31, 2015 12:10 am

Quoting PlanesNTrains (Reply 68):

"More than likely" he would not have landed had he seen an aircraft ahead. Having said that, we don't know if another aircraft was present and potentially cleared to taxi onto the taxiway just ahead of him. More could have gone wrong of course.

Linate 2001 was not a taxiway landing, but sort of a parallell to what could have happened if another aircraft (or vehicle for that matter) was cleared to taxi on Tango at the time of the landing. Incidents are just incidents and not accidents because "nothing happened" - at that point in time. Often it just takes an inch here or there to turn an incident into a brutal accident.

Quoting AirlineCritic (Reply 71):
But please do not minimise the concern that some of us express on this thread about these incidents, by hiding behind the "you are not professionals, you do not understand" argument.

  

So, all pilots that loath us "wannabees", just go create your own exclusive, pilots-only forum and see how hillarious that turns out. I think that (almost) everyone on this forum has something to contribute with, pilot or not. Lots of valuable comments are made by non-aviation employees. That said, we all appreciate the insight shared by those with first-hand experience like FAs, MX personnell, pilots and others in the aviation business.

Then again, some post do have a little too much of "how hard can it be, I can do that in Flight Sim anytime" with little real contribution to the discussion.

While I'm at it, as a stupid foreigner in this very much US centric forum, I don't get some idioms (like Joe Montana above), and I can live with that. Just don't exepect the entire world to know what you mean when you use them.


Now that "those" pilots have stopped reading my post, I feel confident enough to continue the discussion at hand. Mistakes happen, like it or not. I know two persons that have shorted live 10 kV high tension lines. How stupid can you get? you ask, with all rights! Both were 100 % sure the lines were powered off. They KNEW they were. You don't question things that you know for a fact, do you? Same here. The pilots obviously KNEW they were lined up on the appropriate runway. As previously mentioned, surely lots of things played a role here, producing this result, and one ingredient was trust/faith (or whatever word is appropriate here) in something that was later discovered to be false.

I often hear people say "you really shouldn't have to point that out, it's so obvious!". Well, I hear this after something happens that really shouldn't happen (some "bozo" messes up big time) and the person saying this thinks that yet another warnign sign or yet another security measure shouldn't be needed (It's on the map! Why can't people read the map?). Relating to the taxiway landing, there is (apparently) an explicit warning on the charts, pilots are supposed to know what a RWY looks like, bla, bla, bla... Sure! I bet my life on that every time I fly! Then something odd happens, and I'm not even going to speculate on what did happen in this case, but it did and it will happen again. Next time it may be an "innocent" taxiway landing that turns nasty, "Linate style". Adding an X, T or whatever on taxiways that may be confused for a runway sounds like a failry cheap investment in safety to me. Why not hook up some red/blue/whatever lights in the same shape while you're at it!

Quoting Toni_ (Reply 53):
The landing occurred at 8:31am. Since the sunrise for Seattle on december 19th was at 7:53am (2 days away from the shortest day of the year), they probably didn't land in bright and sunny conditions.

Ok, now for the armchair piloting session (WARNING, DO NOT READ BELOW IF ARMCHAIR PILOTING NOT CONSENTED):

Sunrise at 07:54, bearing 125°
Sun should have moved ~9° in the 37 minutes from sunrise to landing, sun at ~134°
Landing on RWY 16C (is this correct? Indicated above)
Angle to sun is ~29° (using RWY 16C magnetic heading 163° as it suits my case better than the true heading of 180°  )

The sun is very low (just rising) and at ~29° angle of the heading of the aircraft. There is probably no apparent glaring in the runway surfaces, but I can certainly imagine that it may cause some problems while on visual approach.

Let's look at Google maps (armchair warning still in effect!) (map rotated to simulate the pilot's view):

SEA RWY 16 L/C/R threshold from Google maps


As mentioned, 16C looks pretty new, and the markings are white and shiny! Markings on 16L on the other hand, are pretty worn. Also, please note that the distances between 16L, C and R are more or less a scale factor of the distance between 16C, Tango and 16R! If you are at some distance, you may perceive it as 16C and Tango are in fact 16L and 16C, and then you have 16R a bit further away to the right (not equal spacing).

The distance between 16L and 16C is 32% of the distance between 16L and 16R.
The distance between 16C and Tango is 36% of the distance between 16C and 16R. Close enough!

On final approach, the glare from the sun was closer to the 16L threshold than any other threshold, making it harder to see, especially with the worn markings. 16C was easier to spot, with brand new markings, and right in between that leftmost RWY (16C mistaken for 16L) and 16R, at the usual spacing(!), was something very similar to the middle RWY, and that just HAD to be 16C! The lack of the usual Tango taxiway was easily disregarded by the two brains in the cockpit. (Ever played that game where you have to figure out who's gone from the room?)

Sorry for the elaborate armchairing (and I just had to sit in my favourite armchair writing this until the battery went low just for the sake of it).

Happy new year to all! Time to Tango   

/Fredrik
 
OMP777X
Posts: 455
Joined: Fri Jan 23, 2015 8:10 am

RE: Alaska Lands On SEA Taxiway

Thu Dec 31, 2015 2:51 am

Quoting scrumbum (Reply 53):
According to this article, the Aeroflot aircraft was 1 mile West of SEA on first landing attempt. That would put it in the general area of highway 509 as well as 1st Ave S.

http://community.seattletimes.nwsour...rchive/?date=19970920&slug=2561412

Thanks for digging up that article, scrumbum. I couldn't find much through a Google search, but remember seeing it on the news back when it happened. IIRC, the news report said the IL-62 wasn't more than a few hundred feet above the ground at the point during their first approach over the highway when they finally realized their mistake. This article also seems to confirm the report I saw on TV back then. http://community.seattletimes.nwsour...rchive/?date=19970919&slug=2561317
I guess that airport has had its fair share of close calls!
"Happy Flighting!"
 
HPRamper
Posts: 5161
Joined: Sat May 14, 2005 4:22 am

RE: Alaska Lands On SEA Taxiway

Thu Dec 31, 2015 3:09 am

Quoting jetmatt777 (Reply 74):
I disagree. I feel that more seem to call for the pilot's head before any investigation has occurred.

Same for any event on here...a bad management decision...off with their head. A ramper mistake...off with their head. A mechanic mistake...off with their head.

I completely agree. I feel the prevailing opinion here is that no human involved in airline operations should be given any leeway for...well, being human. It's borderline ridiculous - calls for people to be put on the street are waaay too common here.
 
A332DTW
Posts: 921
Joined: Tue Jan 06, 2015 3:54 am

RE: Alaska Lands On SEA Taxiway

Thu Dec 31, 2015 4:10 am

The gripe I have is people on these forums who immediately put down anyone who has a different approach, simply because I don't fall under the mindset of no one was hurt, the plane is in one piece... so lets just call it a day and move on. Of course people will make mistakes, even the most professional of professionals. However, that does not mean I as a pilot and aviation enthusiast should not question or criticize another aviation professional for a very dangerous mistake. Just thinking as someone who might have had a family member on that plane, I'd be very critical of the crew for such an error.

I have made landings in all different types of weather conditions, from sun in my eyes to rain hammering my windscreen. But I always get several cues that I'm approaching a runway. It starts on final with a set of VASI or PAPI glide-slope indicators, then as you get closer you approach the approach lights and a stop-way (if equipped), followed by threshold, runway numbers, touchdown-zone markings (big white blocks), and finally a white dashed centerline. The fact that so many of these indications were missed is hard to understand, let alone that it apparently happens more often than not. I think the crew must have realized they were about to land on a taxiway, with enough time and altitude to do a go-around. If the investigation finds that I am wrong, then so be it. But after all, this is an aviation forum and I'm allowed to have my take. Fire away your torches if you think that my concern for this incident, and apparently so many like it, should be forgiven and forgotten.

As I said above, it's a little silly to hold off criticism until after someone is actually hurt or an aircraft is damaged.

[Edited 2015-12-30 20:13:53]
 
jetmatt777
Posts: 4598
Joined: Sun Jun 26, 2005 2:16 am

RE: Alaska Lands On SEA Taxiway

Thu Dec 31, 2015 4:23 am

Quoting A332DTW (Reply 78):

Another scenario, which may have happened, is that by the time they saw it was a taxiway (got close enough for the glare to subside) they may have been too low to do anything and proceeded to land. By doing an abrupt go around so low they may have had a severe tail strike or some other issue to which their judgment ruled that proceeding with the landing on a clear taxiway at that point was in fact the safest option.

But, I don't know and you don't know. None of will likely know the complete story, and we should save the serious speculation aside.
 
mcoatc
Posts: 173
Joined: Sat Mar 14, 2009 2:23 am

RE: Alaska Lands On SEA Taxiway

Thu Dec 31, 2015 4:39 am

Quoting A332DTW (Reply 78):


As I said above, it's a little silly to hold off criticism until after someone is actually hurt or an aircraft is damaged.

How about holding off from criticism until you or I know anything other than a plane accidentally landed on a taxiway. The original poster was kind enough to call the crew dumb, and while you haven't said that, you've essentially suggested it.

Furthermore, there is a difference between saying something isn't a safety issue (which I haven't seen anyone say) and not suggesting the crew were a couple of reckless morons with little to any information as to what they might have been dealing with. Sorry, but many of us have grown tired of the "shoot first, ask questions later" society.

Quoting A332DTW (Reply 78):
I think the crew must have realized they were about to land on a taxiway, with enough time and altitude to do a go-around. If the investigation finds that I am wrong, then so be it.

So now you're suggesting that upon realizing they were aligned with a taxiway and with a go around being a viable option, the crew intentionally landed on the taxiway anyway? Please, further enlighten us with their intention in doing so.
 
IPFreely
Posts: 2653
Joined: Sun Dec 24, 2006 8:26 am

RE: Alaska Lands On SEA Taxiway

Thu Dec 31, 2015 4:47 am

Quoting mcoatc (Reply 80):

So now you're suggesting that upon realizing they were aligned with a taxiway and with a go around being a viable option, the crew intentionally landed on the taxiway anyway?

He's suggested about 14 different stories already. Like I posted earlier, these interweb wanna-be's are easier to spot than magnetic north with a 6 foot compass.
 
A332DTW
Posts: 921
Joined: Tue Jan 06, 2015 3:54 am

RE: Alaska Lands On SEA Taxiway

Thu Dec 31, 2015 4:52 am

Quoting mcoatc (Reply 80):
you've essentially suggested it.

Please, quote anywhere where I practically suggested they were "dumb". What I have suggested is that the crew made a terrible mistake due to lack of situational awareness followed by a dangerous decision to not do a go-around.

Quoting mcoatc (Reply 80):
So now you're suggesting that upon realizing they were aligned with a taxiway and with a go around being a viable option, the crew intentionally landed on the taxiway anyway? Please, further enlighten us with their intention in doing so.

Read back. I have suggested that from the very start. A lack of situational awareness, followed by a dangerous decision to proceed with the landing. I could be wrong. As jetmatt777 said above, they may have thought the safer option would be to continue with the landing and the investigation might conclude that. I still think a go-around and a fresh start at a new approach would have been safer.

There's my response to you. Sorry it's not inflammatory.
 
A332DTW
Posts: 921
Joined: Tue Jan 06, 2015 3:54 am

RE: Alaska Lands On SEA Taxiway

Thu Dec 31, 2015 4:54 am

Quoting IPFreely (Reply 81):
He's suggested about 14 different stories already. Like I posted earlier, these interweb wanna-be's are easier to spot than magnetic north with a 6 foot compass.

Ok, list the different stories I have suggested.
 
audian
Posts: 179
Joined: Thu Apr 09, 2015 2:05 pm

RE: Alaska Lands On SEA Taxiway

Thu Dec 31, 2015 4:55 am

Landing on a taxiway is ridiculous. Glare, wet concrete, last minute change in runway are all mere excuses. Glad that no one was hurt. One should be ashamed to ask for excuses for such a dumb act. Shame on the airline for having such a poor standard training on Pilots. One should ban the airline from entering the US air space. FAA should downgrade the airline as well.

Instead of AS if it was a foreign carrier (say AI) the above would have been the average response.

Being AS, the average response on the thread is like "Common guys. Everyone do mistakes. After all pilots are humans."

[Edited 2015-12-30 21:01:17]

[Edited 2015-12-30 21:03:15]
 
PlanesNTrains
Posts: 9524
Joined: Tue Feb 01, 2005 4:19 pm

RE: Alaska Lands On SEA Taxiway

Thu Dec 31, 2015 7:19 am

Quoting audian (Reply 84):
Being AS, the average response on the thread is like "Common guys. Everyone do mistakes. After all pilots are humans."

I think you're falling into a common trap on A.net. You assume that the people that are chastising the AI's of the world are the same ones that are giving a pass to AS. We aren't one common conscience on here - we post where we have the desire to post.

Perhaps you're being facetious?

Quoting A332DTW (Reply 78):
I have made landings in all different types of weather conditions

I think the one key difference between you and this crew is that they made a mistake. Hopefully you never do, but if you do and nobody is hurt and there are mitigating circumstances, wouldn't one possible positive outcome be that you got to keep your job, perhaps get reprimanded and some retraining, and move forward with your career? I think that's what most people here are probably saying or thinking.

I don't think you're wrong at all that there is a reason to be concerned and to act BEFORE somebody dies. However, short of fully automating everything, there are going to be mistakes made. Hopefully the airline will address this very proactively with their pilots and it doesn't happen again.

-Dave
-Dave


MAX’d out on MAX threads. If you are starting a thread, and it’s about the MAX - stop. There’s already a thread that covers it.
 
A332DTW
Posts: 921
Joined: Tue Jan 06, 2015 3:54 am

RE: Alaska Lands On SEA Taxiway

Thu Dec 31, 2015 8:18 am

Quoting PlanesNTrains (Reply 85):
I think the one key difference between you and this crew is that they made a mistake. Hopefully you never do, but if you do and nobody is hurt and there are mitigating circumstances, wouldn't one possible positive outcome be that you got to keep your job, perhaps get reprimanded and some retraining, and move forward with your career? I think that's what most people here are probably saying or thinking.

Absolutely. Again, yes they made a mistake, so have I... I've made plenty of them, none of which I got off scotch free. I don't know where the misconception came from that this crew should have their career put to an end. Some serious questioning as to the decision making in that flight deck and an investigation into the crews' training, and circumstances involving that particular flight are, however, fair.

Remember there are 2 pilots in that flight deck. That's 2 highly professional, well-experienced airmen. At least one, if not both, had to have realized at a certain point they were not approaching a runway, therefor it is my belief that situational awareness and decision making were two major factors. Somehow that got turned into a witch-hunt.  
 
as77w
Posts: 53
Joined: Tue Mar 27, 2012 12:11 am

RE: Alaska Lands On SEA Taxiway

Thu Dec 31, 2015 9:39 am

Quoting FredrikHAD (Reply 75):
Let's look at Google maps (armchair warning still in effect!) (map rotated to simulate the pilot's view):

Perhaps somebody with air traffic knowledge at SEA could answer this question for me. What exactly is the purpose of Twy T extending entirely to Twy C? It seems like this recurring issue could be resolved if that segment did not exist at all, and I do not see how removing it would disrupt the flow of aircraft at SEA whatsoever.
 
User avatar
FredrikHAD
Posts: 453
Joined: Thu Aug 06, 2015 9:44 pm

RE: Alaska Lands On SEA Taxiway

Thu Dec 31, 2015 12:13 pm

Quoting as77w (Reply 87):
What exactly is the purpose of Twy T extending entirely to Twy C? It seems like this recurring issue could be resolved if that segment did not exist at all

Good point! The human brain excels at pattern recognition, even when the patterns only resemble each other.

Quoting jetblastdubai (Reply 59):
Think DWC will have any issues with unfamiliar or even local pilots distinguishing a runway from a parallel taxiway in all weather conditions?

Looks like a nightmare for both unfamiliar and local pilots. Not under normal circumstances of course, but when all the ifs, buts and maybes start lining up with Jupiter, that's when the first taxiway landing will occur at DWC...

/Fredrik
 
migair54
Posts: 2478
Joined: Thu Jun 14, 2007 4:24 am

RE: Alaska Lands On SEA Taxiway

Thu Dec 31, 2015 12:47 pm

If the pilots were not sure or have glare on the runway they should have perform a precautionary Go Around and come again doing full ILS App to Rwy16R, then 200 feet, at minimums for the ILS, they will be perfectly align with the runway, continue to land was the worst decision, luckily no vehicles, or other planes were on the taxiway.

I never liked that ideas of doing a visual swing to another runway visually after starting the instrumental approach, it's not a good idea, just to save a couple of minutes of taxi time.
And the note of DO NOT MISTAKE TAXIWAY T WITH LANDING SURFACE indicates that they have in mind a scenario like this one.

I have seen a very interesting investigation of a initially considered a very stupid pilot error, but read the investigation an you will see, many factor work against the crew.
http://avherald.com/h?article=4786ce1c&opt=0

Quoting audian (Reply 84):
Landing on a taxiway is ridiculous. Glare, wet concrete, last minute change in runway are all mere excuses. Glad that no one was hurt. One should be ashamed to ask for excuses for such a dumb act. Shame on the airline for having such a poor standard training on Pilots. One should ban the airline from entering the US air space. FAA should downgrade the airline as well.

If the FAA has to ban airlines for human errors you will have to travel by train only, actually even train drivers make mistakes, bus drivers...
The issue here is to find the root of the problem and avoid another case in the future.

Quoting as77w (Reply 87):
Perhaps somebody with air traffic knowledge at SEA could answer this question for me. What exactly is the purpose of Twy T extending entirely to Twy C? I

I think it could be use in case of other taxiways are close, airports are always renovating taxiways, runways, parkings, etc, so maybe it's not usually to see planes using it, but it could help in some cases.
 
User avatar
FredrikHAD
Posts: 453
Joined: Thu Aug 06, 2015 9:44 pm

RE: Alaska Lands On SEA Taxiway

Thu Dec 31, 2015 1:26 pm

Quoting migair54 (Reply 89):
If the pilots were not sure or have glare on the runway they should have perform a precautionary Go Around

I think there was some glare in the runway, but the pilots "knew" they were lined up properly. You don't question things you know, sometimes not even if training says otherwise.

Quoting migair54 (Reply 89):
And the note of DO NOT MISTAKE TAXIWAY T WITH LANDING SURFACE indicates that they have in mind a scenario like this one.

It happended (at least) three times before on this very taxiway, so yes! Do something about it!

Quoting migair54 (Reply 89):
If the FAA has to ban airlines for human errors you will have to travel by train only, actually even train drivers make mistakes, bus drivers...

Learn and improve. Ban only if necessary.

/Fredrik
 
N766UA
Posts: 8394
Joined: Thu Jul 29, 1999 3:50 am

RE: Alaska Lands On SEA Taxiway

Thu Dec 31, 2015 1:42 pm

I remember seeing SEA on google earth for the first time when the new runway was built, looking at how perfectly symmetrical all the concrete was, and thinking to myself "whelp, someone's gonna land on that..."

Generally speaking, we cannot accept nor excuse errors like this. That having been said, we've all made them, to some degree, and I can see how this was entirely possible. Learn and move on, and be thankful nobody got hurt.
 
b747400erf
Posts: 3177
Joined: Wed Jun 19, 2013 4:33 am

RE: Alaska Lands On SEA Taxiway

Thu Dec 31, 2015 2:25 pm

Quoting IPFreely (Reply 81):

He's suggested about 14 different stories already. Like I posted earlier, these interweb wanna-be's are easier to spot than magnetic north with a 6 foot compass.

You're not only a financial expert but now you are an expert pilot capable of deciding who is a wannabe?
 
User avatar
Devilfish
Posts: 7412
Joined: Tue Jan 24, 2006 7:52 am

RE: Alaska Lands On SEA Taxiway

Thu Dec 31, 2015 4:50 pm

This, at least, was on an actual runway...    ...

http://www.flightglobal.com/news/art...ands-on-closed-pisa-runway-420441/
"Everyone is entitled to my opinion." - Garfield
 
User avatar
ro1960
Posts: 1364
Joined: Wed Jan 04, 2006 8:19 am

RE: Alaska Lands On SEA Taxiway

Thu Dec 31, 2015 6:19 pm

Quoting par13del (Reply 47):

I'm not sure we understand "last resort" in the same manner. What you describe takes time to organise. We are talking about a plane approaching the taxiway and about to use it as a runway. How can you take down the windsock and reroute the taxyway traffic at the last minute?
Do not compensate for the lack of skills with a surplus of opinion.
 
User avatar
par13del
Posts: 10819
Joined: Sun Dec 18, 2005 9:14 pm

RE: Alaska Lands On SEA Taxiway

Thu Dec 31, 2015 6:53 pm

Quoting ro1960 (Reply 94):
I'm not sure we understand "last resort" in the same manner.

Obviously.

Quoting ro1960 (Reply 94):
We are talking about a plane approaching the taxiway and about to use it as a runway.

We were responding to a poster who said a way to avoid landing on a taxiway in error was to build the taxiway with S bends in it, pilots would not see a continuous strip and easily know they were lined up incorrectly.
 
User avatar
RayChuang
Posts: 8139
Joined: Sat Jun 24, 2000 7:43 am

RE: Alaska Lands On SEA Taxiway

Thu Dec 31, 2015 7:24 pm

Like I said earlier, the combination of:

1. Runway 16C was just resurfaced recently, so there were relatively few tire marks at the end of the runway.
2. It just rained very recently, so the glare from the moisture on Runway 16C and Taxiway Tango made it difficult to differentiate from each other.
3. The landing light system didn't clearly show that Taxiway Tango is NOT a runway.

...was the reason why the 737-700ER landing on the taxiway.

I expect SEA authorities to completely re-do the runway landing lights to clearly show Taxiway Tango is NOT a runway, and will put in special markings on Taxiway Tango to visibly differentiate itself from the SEA runways.
 
Viscount724
Posts: 19316
Joined: Thu Oct 12, 2006 7:32 pm

RE: Alaska Lands On SEA Taxiway

Thu Dec 31, 2015 9:38 pm

As a sidenote, aircraft don't only land on taxiways. A China Airlines A340-300 took off from a taxiway at ANC in 2002, and continued the 4,066 nm flight to TPE. The landing gear struck the tops of snowbanks at the end of the taxiway. The taxiway wasn't even aligned in the same direction as the almost 11,000 ft. runway where they'd been cleared for takeoff. The taxiway from the point where they began the takeoff roll was only 6,800 ft.

NTSB summary:
http://www.ntsb.gov/_layouts/ntsb.av...204X00182&ntsbno=ANC02IA011&akey=1

Related thread:
CI A340 Pilots Convicted For Incident At Anchorage (by Bobcat Aug 18 2002 in Civil Aviation)

ANC airport diagram. They'd been cleared for takeoff from runway 33 (then numbered 32). They departed from taxiway K from the intersection with taxiway R.
http://skyvector.com/files/tpp/1513/pdf/01500AD.PDF
 
cubastar
Posts: 314
Joined: Wed Nov 15, 2006 11:48 pm

RE: Alaska Lands On SEA Taxiway

Thu Dec 31, 2015 9:41 pm

Quoting catiii (Reply 4):
I think it's human nature to trust your visuals more than technology

Years ago, old timers (captains) used to tell us younger guys, that when during a visual approach, always tune in and use the appropriate instrument procedure (usually ILS) to the runway that you were cleared to land on, if there was one available, just for a "backup" to make sure you were headed for the proper runway.

Remember, When Performing A Visual Approach, And You Land On The Wrong Runway, It Always Happens In Good Weather!

Yes, I do understand that this was a Taxiway involved and as such would have no approach procedure. I was just
"calling up" a procedure that might someday prevent a landing on a wrong runway in GOOD VISUAL Weather.

[Edited 2015-12-31 13:53:11]
 
BravoOne
Posts: 4094
Joined: Fri Apr 12, 2013 2:27 pm

RE: Alaska Lands On SEA Taxiway

Thu Dec 31, 2015 10:16 pm

I believe that most airlines today require the crew to tune in and use all electronic approach aids for the respective approach being flown...regardless of weather. I can see how someone familiar with an airport might choose to ignore this under good visual weather as was presented here so that certainly leaves these pilots exposed. Now if the CVR shows that there extraneous conversations going on, that could add to the reasons behind this incident. Until we hear different, I will give the pilots the benefit of the doubt. A full investigation, followed by a simulator check and put the back to work. Don't let it happen again!

These type of events serve notice on all pilots that they need to keep vigilant at all times, even under benign conditions. Nothing will be served by making an example of them. Put them back to work as their piers will handle the rest.

Popular Searches On Airliners.net

Top Photos of Last:   24 Hours  •  48 Hours  •  7 Days  •  30 Days  •  180 Days  •  365 Days  •  All Time

Military Aircraft Every type from fighters to helicopters from air forces around the globe

Classic Airliners Props and jets from the good old days

Flight Decks Views from inside the cockpit

Aircraft Cabins Passenger cabin shots showing seat arrangements as well as cargo aircraft interior

Cargo Aircraft Pictures of great freighter aircraft

Government Aircraft Aircraft flying government officials

Helicopters Our large helicopter section. Both military and civil versions

Blimps / Airships Everything from the Goodyear blimp to the Zeppelin

Night Photos Beautiful shots taken while the sun is below the horizon

Accidents Accident, incident and crash related photos

Air to Air Photos taken by airborne photographers of airborne aircraft

Special Paint Schemes Aircraft painted in beautiful and original liveries

Airport Overviews Airport overviews from the air or ground

Tails and Winglets Tail and Winglet closeups with beautiful airline logos