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Okcflyer
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RE: DL To Start 737 Ops To Hawaii

Sat Jan 02, 2016 4:47 pm

The 737 holds significantly more fuel in the wing than the 'Bus can. When a 737 runs into headwind issues, is it fuel volume limited or simply a matter of MTOW? Do any of the US carriers have one of the AUX tanks in the belly of the 739?

Quoting wedgetail737 (Reply 49):
But if you want to guarantee a widebody, then HA is pretty much it now. That could change quite a bit when HA takes delivery
of their A321-Neos and get rid of the 767-300's.

United has a fairly dedicated 777 fleet for Hawaii they're doubling the size of. Probably won't see many of them leaving from the west coast if you live MST-EST time zones, just connect through one of the other hubs to catch the widebody.

It will be interesting to see what Delta does with the A321s. I suspect they'll fly them on higher density east coast routes and skip the aux tanks. They sit 15+ more (10-15%) people than a 739.
 
COSPN
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RE: DL To Start 737 Ops To Hawaii

Sat Jan 02, 2016 5:04 pm

Wow how did we survive the 1960s when the only 707 and DC8s flew everywhere
 
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DocLightning
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RE: DL To Start 737 Ops To Hawaii

Sat Jan 02, 2016 6:40 pm

Quoting Max Q (Reply 39):

The constant downgrading of the travel experience on this route is not fun, a 737 is not the same as a 757, its cramped and has a bad ride.

Horsepucky. The 737 has precisely the same cabin cross-section as the 757 with some minor differences in interior fittings. The seat width is the same. The source is the diagrams published by Boeing.

And if you're going to tell me I'm wrong, prove it.

I also challenge you to prove that the 737 has a worse ride.
-Doc Lightning-

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flyboy80
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RE: DL To Start 737 Ops To Hawaii

Sun Jan 03, 2016 8:59 pm

Can the -900ER do a "standard" load out of OGG? I've heard pilots say the 321 has much better takeoff performance then a 900er given some of its differences.

How many pax do AA 321 seat vs DL/AS 739? I think the AA 321 has less first class seats as well?
 
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TWA772LR
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RE: DL To Start 737 Ops To Hawaii

Sun Jan 03, 2016 9:24 pm

Quoting wedgetail737 (Reply 49):
But if you want to guarantee a widebody, then HA is pretty much it now. That could change quite a bit when HA takes delivery

You can take a massive detour to the east. Every flight to Hawaii originating east of Denver are widebodies.
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superjeff
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RE: DL To Start 737 Ops To Hawaii

Sun Jan 03, 2016 9:48 pm

Quoting flyboy80 (Reply 53):
How many pax do AA 321 seat vs DL/AS 739? I think the AA 321 has less first class seats as well?

AA's new 32B's have 16F and 167Y (I think; not sure how many MCE -Y+ seats are included in that). The older LUS planes have about another 6 seats because they don't have Y+.

Not sure of Delta's configuration on the 739, but I believe they have 16 seats, which is what AS has in their 739's. I've flown Alaska's 739 and it was a bit tight in coach, but survivable for 5-6 hours. I haven't flown Delta's version yet. Note that both are going to the new lavatories to cram in more seats, though.
 
Prost
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RE: DL To Start 737 Ops To Hawaii

Sun Jan 03, 2016 10:03 pm

Alaska has a raised literature pocket in their seats, and I felt that Alaska's legroom felt more comparable to Delta's comfort +. Just my perspective, however.
 
flyboy80
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RE: DL To Start 737 Ops To Hawaii

Mon Jan 04, 2016 12:38 am

No, Delta's 900ER has 20 first class seats. That means it was only three seats total less then the AA 32B, and must be considerably tighter because the 321 has around 9 or 10' more cabin floor space lengthways. The 321 does have some doors however that might take a few feet off my figure.

The 900ER at DL must have a very tight first class, and regular Y. Alaska has a similar seat count with less first class, and no Y+. I do know the forward galley on DL's 900er does not accommodate full size carts in the unit aft of the 1R (galley service door) I believe United and Alaska's have full-size carts stored in that location, which slightly reduces cabin floor space another 10-12" or so. The DL 900ER First Class galley is ridiculously tiny.
 
airlineaddict
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RE: DL To Start 737 Ops To Hawaii

Mon Jan 04, 2016 10:40 am

Quoting wedgetail737 (Reply 49):
But if you want to guarantee a widebody, then HA is pretty much it now.
Quoting Okcflyer (Reply 50):
United has a fairly dedicated 777 fleet for Hawaii they're doubling the size of. Probably won't see many of them leaving from the west coast if you live MST-EST time zones, just connect through one of the other hubs to catch the widebody.

If I'm not mistaken, UA uses the 777 on one of its daily frequencies between LAX and SFO to HNL.
 
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SFOA380
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RE: DL To Start 737 Ops To Hawaii

Tue Jan 05, 2016 3:37 am

I too miss the days of the Western DC-10 "Spaceship" having flown it many times as a kid from SFO-HNL. It was a dream. The rolling plastic volcano serving punch and all. The small narrow body planes aren't that bad however and certainly no worse than being on an east coast transcon out of SFO. Heck the flight to Hawaii is shorter and usually full of people in a good mood! Quite different than on a 737 or 320 to EWR.
 
bobnwa
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RE: DL To Start 737 Ops To Hawaii

Tue Jan 05, 2016 4:06 pm

Quoting flyboy80 (Reply 53):
I've heard pilots say the 321 has much better takeoff performance then a 900er given some of its differences.

What pilots fly both the 321 and the 900, to be able to do a comparison?
 
flyboy80
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RE: DL To Start 737 Ops To Hawaii

Tue Jan 05, 2016 8:50 pm

Quoting bobnwa (Reply 60):
What pilots fly both the 321 and the 900, to be able to do a comparison?

I'm sure some have experience on both types, but in my experience, I imagine the comments made as general points of comparison from conversations they'd had with colleagues on the opposite type.

Someone did write in Tech Ops forum not to long ago specifically the thrust to weight ratio on the 321 is notably better; One of several factors at hand regarding takeoffs performance from Hawaii headed back to the mainland...

Out of curiosity, how much more thrust, and fuel capacity will the 321 NEO have compared to current new build CEO 321s? Would be interested in similar figures for the 739-MAX as well if anyone might know off the top?
 
chrisair
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RE: DL To Start 737 Ops To Hawaii

Wed Jan 06, 2016 1:25 am

Quoting RWA380 (Reply 38):
I've never seen a 739 or been on one either with AS, but of course that doesn't mean they aren't happening. Are the 739 flights to Hawaii run as subs, or actually scheduled? I am sure the winter months they aren't even viable to OAK or SJC.

Sorry I'm a little late to the party here, but the 900ERs are routinely scheduled to Hawaii in the summer. I flew one in 2014 SJC-HNL-OAK. They are scheduled to HNL and KOA from SEA and the Bay Area. Haven't seen one going across the water out of PDX or SAN, though. OGG and LIH only get the 800s, likely due to the short runways there.
 
Viscount724
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RE: DL To Start 737 Ops To Hawaii

Wed Jan 06, 2016 1:40 am

Quoting SFOA380 (Reply 59):
Heck the flight to Hawaii is shorter and usually full of people in a good mood! Quite different than on a 737 or 320 to EWR.

Not always. Following from Transport Canada occurrence reports:

November 2015:

A WestJet Boeing 737-800 (C-GJLZ/ WJA1852) from Vancouver, BC (CYVR) to Kahului, HI (PHOG) reported a disruptive passenger incident. Upon returning the aircraft to the gate for a passenger medical incident another passenger became disruptive and was pulled off the flight for being intoxicated and irate. Police were requested to the gate and spoke to the passenger.

August 2015:

A WestJet Boeing 737-800 (C-GWRG/ WJA1852) from Vancouver, BC (CYVR) to Kahului, HI (PHOG) reported a disruptive passenger incident. A passenger was consuming their own alcohol and not listening to flight crew instructions. Police were requested to meet the aircraft upon arrival.

May 2015:

A WestJet Boeing 737-800 (C-FBWI / WJA1882) from Vancouver, BC (CYVR) to Kona, HI (PHKO) experienced an unruly passenger incident. A passenger was being verbally abusive and swearing at the flight attendants. The passenger was not listening to them and changed seats several times. The flight was enroute to PHKO and decided to return to CYVR to offload this passenger. Police met the aircraft and removed the passenger. The flight ended up being cancelled as the crew needed to debrief in CYVR, which put them over their duty day.

January 2014:

A WestJet Boeing 737-800 (WJA1877) from Kahului, Hawaii (PHOG/OGG) to Vancouver, BC (CYVR) experienced a passenger related incident. The Crew requested police (RCMP) to meet the flight in CYVR for an unruly passenger.
 
AAR90
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RE: DL To Start 737 Ops To Hawaii

Wed Jan 06, 2016 6:16 am

Quoting superjeff (Reply 55):
AA's new 32B's have 16F and 167Y

AA's LAX-HI A321s seat 16/165. Most of today's LAX-HI flights all had restrictions though (162-179 max pax limits). Return flights appeared to have no restrictions.
*NO CARRIER* -- A Naval Aviator's worst nightmare!
 
Max Q
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RE: DL To Start 737 Ops To Hawaii

Wed Jan 06, 2016 6:23 am

Quoting DocLightning (Reply 52):
Horsepucky. The 737 has precisely the same cabin cross-section as the 757 with some minor differences in interior fittings. The seat width is the same. The source is the diagrams published by Boeing.

And if you're going to tell me I'm wrong, prove it.

I also challenge you to prove that the 737 has a worse ride.

You want to fly on that little skateboard to Hawaii, be my guest, you can try to kid yourself it has as much room
inside as a 757 too, good luck with that.


Whether i'm flying it or riding in the back, I will always choose the 757 over any narrowbody from A or B.


Unless you want to bring back the 707 or DC8, now that I could go for    
The best contribution to safety is a competent Pilot.


GGg
 
bobnwa
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RE: DL To Start 737 Ops To Hawaii

Wed Jan 06, 2016 12:13 pm

Quoting flyboy80 (Reply 61):
I'm sure some have experience on both types, but in my experience, I imagine the comments made as general points of comparison from conversations they'd had with colleagues on the opposite type

In other words, you didn't hear any pilots comparing the 321 with the 900?
 
wedgetail737
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RE: DL To Start 737 Ops To Hawaii

Wed Jan 06, 2016 1:23 pm

Quoting Max Q (Reply 65):
You want to fly on that little skateboard to Hawaii, be my guest, you can try to kid yourself it has as much room
inside as a 757 too, good luck with that.


Whether i'm flying it or riding in the back, I will always choose the 757 over any narrowbody from A or B.


Unless you want to bring back the 707 or DC8, now that I could go for

Too bad the 757's are aging and will eventually non-existent. I guess your flights to Hawaii are numbered.
 
deltal1011man
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RE: DL To Start 737 Ops To Hawaii

Thu Jan 07, 2016 2:46 am

Quoting bobnwa (Reply 60):

What pilots fly both the 321 and the 900, to be able to do a comparison?

uh....

any pilot (at least a AA and DL) who wants to fly the 737 then move to the 320 (or vise versa) can so long as they can hold it. (kind of a simple way to put it but you get the point)

I know plenty of pilots who have flown both. Of course at the end of the day with de-rated take offs happening all the time it doesn't really matter but its "nice" to have 37K or 40K on the 757 or 33K on the 321 vs 28K on the 739.

Of course it would also be nice to have a car with 1000HP but that doesn't mean its the most economical thing in the world.

Delta doesn't care much about it would be nice to haves or the cockpit size unless it brings in revenue.
 
Viscount724
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RE: DL To Start 737 Ops To Hawaii

Thu Jan 07, 2016 2:53 am

Quoting Max Q (Reply 65):
Whether i'm flying it or riding in the back, I will always choose the 757 over any narrowbody from A or B.
Quoting Max Q (Reply 65):
Unless you want to bring back the 707 or DC8, now that I could go for

As already mentioned, the 757 cabin is the same width as every Boeing narrowbody since the 707. If there's any difference in seat pitch between 757 and 737, that's the airline's decision.

The DC-8 fuselage was all of one inch narrower than the 707 (and 727/737/757).
 
planemaker
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RE: DL To Start 737 Ops To Hawaii

Fri Jan 08, 2016 6:25 am

Quoting Viscount724 (Reply 69):
As already mentioned, the 757 cabin is the same width as every Boeing narrowbody since the 707.

Why would anyone say otherwise... twice. And, more so, that it is wider than the A320.
Nationalism is an infantile disease. It is the measles of mankind. - A. Einstein
 
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DocLightning
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RE: DL To Start 737 Ops To Hawaii

Fri Jan 08, 2016 6:39 am

Quoting Max Q (Reply 65):

You want to fly on that little skateboard to Hawaii, be my guest, you can try to kid yourself it has as much room
inside as a 757 too, good luck with that.

I am not kidding myself. You are kidding yourself.

http://www.boeing.com/assets/pdf/commercial/airports/acaps/737.pdf
Page 67: Interior dimensions

http://www.boeing.com/assets/pdf/commercial/airports/acaps/757_23.pdf
Page 21: Interior dimensions

And while we're at it: http://www.boeing.com/assets/pdf/commercial/airports/acaps/707.pdf
Page 19: Interior dimensions

Boeing 737 cabin width trim-to-trim: 354cm.
Boeing 757 cabin width trim-to-trim: 354cm.
Boeing 707 cabin width trim-to-trim: 354cm.

They are identical. If you have information to the contrary, cite it or be quiet.
-Doc Lightning-

"The sky calls to us. If we do not destroy ourselves, we will one day venture to the stars."
-Carl Sagan
 
Max Q
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RE: DL To Start 737 Ops To Hawaii

Sat Jan 09, 2016 9:48 am

The 757 cabin is considerably more spacious inside than the 737, while the fuselage width may be identical the interior design allows more room on the 757.


Calm down Doc..
The best contribution to safety is a competent Pilot.


GGg
 
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aerorobnz
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RE: DL To Start 737 Ops To Hawaii

Sat Jan 09, 2016 10:45 am

Meh, it's not different to EWR-LAX or BOS-LAX on a poxy 737. I I have flown HNL-MAJ-KWA-KSA-PNI-TKK-GUM-MNL at around 18h30min worth of flying plus transit time onboard a UA 738 with just over an hour in GUM so I guess it can't be that bad.
Flown to 147 Airports in 62 Countries on 83 Operators and counting. Wanderlust is like Syphilis, once you have the itch it's too late for treatment.
 
bobnwa
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RE: DL To Start 737 Ops To Hawaii

Sat Jan 09, 2016 3:30 pm

Quoting deltal1011man (Reply 68):
I know plenty of pilots who have flown both.

What airline do they work for, that currently or in the recent past has the A321 and the 900?
 
phatfarmlines
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RE: DL To Start 737 Ops To Hawaii

Sat Jan 09, 2016 4:03 pm

Quoting Max Q (Reply 39):

The constant downgrading of the travel experience on this route is not fun, a 737 is not the same as a 757, its cramped and has a bad ride.


We've gone from 747's to DC10's to 767 and 757's down to the smallest narrowbodies made by Boeing or AB, at this rate we'll be back to the DC4 soon.

How quickly we forget....I know there was a period back in the 90s where it was exclusively widebodies connecting the mainland US & Canada to/from Hawaii, but you can see from the mix even operating as far as the late 80's that all widebody service would not be sustainable in the long term.


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As far as the 737s to Hawaii trend, you can blame Aloha for starting it with the then-new capable 73Gs. But don't fret just yet, HA will provide some variety with those A321neos.
 
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Tomassjc
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RE: DL To Start 737 Ops To Hawaii

Sat Jan 09, 2016 6:08 pm

Quoting phatfarmlines (Reply 75):

How quickly we forget....I know there was a period back in the 90s where it was exclusively widebodies connecting the mainland US & Canada to/from Hawaii, but you can see from the mix even operating as far as the late 80's that all widebody service would not be sustainable in the long term.

My last DC8 ride was on UA SFO-HNL in October '89. I was non reving and things were a mess that day due to WX in the midwest. By mid afternoon there were close to 100 misconnect passengers waiting for space to HNL. An announcement soon came that UA would run an extra section to accommodate everyone, non revs included. From the hanger came a DC8-71! We were all in HNL by dinner time after a great ride on a Stretch 8! I don't recall anyone complain that they weren't on the regularly scheduled DC10 or 747. (Except the woman who sat next to me that got nervous when the Captain announced that we would do a "rock and roll decent" into HNL using some reverse thrust procedure!)

Tomas SJC
When once you have tasted flight, you will forever walk the Earth with your eyes turned skyward -Leonardo DaVinci
 
planemaker
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RE: DL To Start 737 Ops To Hawaii

Sat Jan 09, 2016 7:32 pm

Quoting Max Q (Reply 39):
a 737 is not the same as a 757, its cramped
Quoting Max Q (Reply 65):
you can try to kid yourself it has as much room
inside as a 757 too, good luck with that.
Quoting Max Q (Reply 72):
The 757 cabin is considerably more spacious inside than the 737,

Even though Boeing's specs shows that the 757 & 737 interiors are identical, you insist for the third time that the 757 is considerably more spacious than the 737...


Nationalism is an infantile disease. It is the measles of mankind. - A. Einstein
 
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drerx7
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RE: DL To Start 737 Ops To Hawaii

Sat Jan 09, 2016 8:56 pm

Isn't the cabin height of the 757 greater than the 737?
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Viscount724
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RE: DL To Start 737 Ops To Hawaii

Sat Jan 09, 2016 10:27 pm

Quoting Max Q (Reply 72):
The 757 cabin is considerably more spacious inside than the 737, while the fuselage width may be identical the interior design allows more room on the 757.

What part of the 757's interior design are you referring to? You will find detailed 737 and 757 cabin dimensions on their website and I see nothing that would allow more room on the 757. As previously mentioned, seat pitch is up to the airline.
 
UA444
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RE: DL To Start 737 Ops To Hawaii

Sat Jan 09, 2016 10:36 pm

Quoting planemaker (Reply 70):

Why would anyone say otherwise... twice. And, more so, that it is wider than the A320.

No it isn't. The A320 is wider than the 737.
 
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DL_Mech
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RE: DL To Start 737 Ops To Hawaii

Sat Jan 09, 2016 10:57 pm

Quoting Viscount724 (Reply 79):
I see nothing that would allow more room on the 757

Passenger seating areas may be similar, but cockpit, forward lav/galley and entryways are much smaller on the 737NG.
This plane is built to withstand anything... except a bad pilot.

Former AMT on A220,A310,A319/20/21,A330,A350,B707,B717,B727,B737,B747,B757,B767,B777,DC-9,DC-10,L-1011,
MD-80/90,MD-11
 
Viscount724
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RE: DL To Start 737 Ops To Hawaii

Sat Jan 09, 2016 11:03 pm

Quoting DL_Mech (Reply 81):
Quoting Viscount724 (Reply 79):
I see nothing that would allow more room on the 757

Passenger seating areas may be similar, but cockpit, forward lav/galley and entryways are much smaller on the 737NG.

Those things, except to a minor extent lavatory size, have little or no impact on the passenger. And I can't remember the last time I used a lavatory on a 737. I seldom have the need to on flights shorter than about 5 hours. I much prefer to use the facilities in the airports before boarding and after arrival.
 
planemaker
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RE: DL To Start 737 Ops To Hawaii

Sun Jan 10, 2016 12:15 am

Quoting drerx7 (Reply 78):

Isn't the cabin height of the 757 greater than the 737?

They are identical.   .

Quoting UA444 (Reply 80):
No it isn't. The A320 is wider than the 737.

You misinterpreted what I said. I know that the A320 it is almost 6" wider than the 757.  
Nationalism is an infantile disease. It is the measles of mankind. - A. Einstein
 
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DocLightning
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RE: DL To Start 737 Ops To Hawaii

Sun Jan 10, 2016 4:02 am

Quoting Max Q (Reply 72):

The 757 cabin is considerably more spacious inside than the 737, while the fuselage width may be identical the interior design allows more room on the 757.


Calm down Doc..

Or, be an adult and say: "I was wrong. There is no difference."

Or, be an adult and say: "There is a major difference in this or that measurement. Here is the reference."

We're all here to learn and to provide each-other accurate information. Or that should be why you are here. So when you keep on repeating blatantly false claims, why are you here?

Quoting DL_Mech (Reply 81):

Passenger seating areas may be similar, but cockpit, forward lav/galley and entryways are much smaller on the 737NG.

Forward lav and galley and entryways are slightly smaller on the 737, which tapers to the front. This makes no difference in the passenger experience except during embarcation/disembarcation.
-Doc Lightning-

"The sky calls to us. If we do not destroy ourselves, we will one day venture to the stars."
-Carl Sagan
 
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DL_Mech
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RE: DL To Start 737 Ops To Hawaii

Sun Jan 10, 2016 4:23 am

Quoting Viscount724 (Reply 82):
And I can't remember the last time I used a lavatory on a 737.

I think it's funny that all of the people on FT complain about the smaller forward 739 lavatory when it is just a standard forward 737 lavatory. I think that they are used to the larger 757 lav.

You and I have both flown on 707's with five lavatories (two for F/C) for a max of 189 people. It is frustrating when people compare the 738 or 739 to a 707 experience not considering that the cabin plan for the four engine Boeing was more generous.
This plane is built to withstand anything... except a bad pilot.

Former AMT on A220,A310,A319/20/21,A330,A350,B707,B717,B727,B737,B747,B757,B767,B777,DC-9,DC-10,L-1011,
MD-80/90,MD-11
 
deltal1011man
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RE: DL To Start 737 Ops To Hawaii

Sun Jan 10, 2016 8:11 am

Quoting DL_Mech (Reply 81):
but cockpit,

no question about that. Sitting in the cockpit for a few minutes can be painful (compared to the bus or 757/767) I really don't know how pilots do it.
 
BoeingGuy
Posts: 6333
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RE: DL To Start 737 Ops To Hawaii

Sun Jan 10, 2016 7:17 pm

Quoting planemaker (Reply 77):
Quoting Max Q (Reply 39):
a 737 is not the same as a 757, its cramped
Quoting Max Q (Reply 65):
you can try to kid yourself it has as much room
inside as a 757 too, good luck with that.
Quoting Max Q (Reply 72):
The 757 cabin is considerably more spacious inside than the 737,

Even though Boeing's specs shows that the 757 & 737 interiors are identical, you insist for the third time that the 757 is considerably more spacious than the 737...

Quoting drerx7 (Reply 78):
Isn't the cabin height of the 757 greater than the 737?

Everyone, the 707, 727, 737, and 757 all have exactly the same fuselage diameter. None of them are any more spacious than the other. The last poster above is correct. The 737 and 757 have identical interior cross sections.

Now, having said that I just flew on a new AA 319 and transferred to a 737-800 at DFW and didn't notice any difference in spaciousness or comfort, despite the 6" different cabin width. I was in Economy + in each of them and found the 738 to every bit as comfortable, and I liked the seat back pocket configuration much better, and no entertainment box in the way of your feet.

All in all, the 737-800 was a nicer ride, but then I'm a bit biased.
 
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DocLightning
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RE: DL To Start 737 Ops To Hawaii

Sun Jan 10, 2016 9:01 pm

Quoting BoeingGuy (Reply 87):

Everyone, the 707, 727, 737, and 757 all have exactly the same fuselage diameter.

They all have the same passenger cabin. If you look at my sources in reply 71 you will see that the lower lobes are different.
-Doc Lightning-

"The sky calls to us. If we do not destroy ourselves, we will one day venture to the stars."
-Carl Sagan
 
NZ1
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RE: DL To Start 737 Ops To Hawaii

Mon Jan 11, 2016 2:25 am

This thread has drifted well off topic and will now be locked.

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