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jetblastdubai
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Delta Alpa Seeking 40% Wage Hike

Thu Dec 31, 2015 11:43 pm

http://finance.yahoo.com/news/deltas...ots-union-seeks-big-224943179.html

"Dec 31 (Reuters) - The union representing Delta Air Lines Inc's pilots is seeking a wage hike of about 40 percent compounded over three years as the carrier's profits surge, Bloomberg reported, citing a memo from the Air Line Pilots Association.

The union is taking a more aggressive stance in negotiations with the Atlanta-based airline after two-thirds of the pilots previously rejected a deal for a 22 percent wage hike over three years, Bloomberg said"

Not sure what to think of this. If passed, does this also put UAL into a corner with the their "Delta Snap Up" language in their proposed agreement?

From UPA extension LOA TA 12-15-15

"B. Delta Snap Up
1. If the pilots of Delta Air Lines ratify a new or modified agreement containing increases in hourly rates of pay (regardless of whether the agreement is the result of bargaining conducted under Section 6, Title I, of the Railway Labor Act but limited to a single agreement) on or before January 1, 2018 and the average increase in Delta’s hourly rates of pay is greater than that included in this Agreement, then the hourly rates of pay included in this Agreement shall be adjusted in accordance with Paragraph B.2, below."

[Edited 2015-12-31 15:51:42]
 
United1
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RE: Delta Alpa Seeking 40% Wage Hike

Thu Dec 31, 2015 11:49 pm

Quoting jetblastdubai (Thread starter):
Dec 31 (Reuters) - The union representing Delta Air Lines Inc's pilots is seeking a wage hike of about 40 percent compounded over three years as the carrier's profits surge, Bloomberg reported, citing a memo from the Air Line Pilots Association.

...I'm not surprised they are asking for such a large raise however I would be shocked if they actually got it. Generally both sides will shoot for the moon and settle somewhere in the middle.

Quoting jetblastdubai (Thread starter):
If passed, does this also put UAL into a corner with the their "Delta Snap Up" language in their proposed agreement?

If it was ratified possibly....
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deltal1011man
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RE: Delta Alpa Seeking 40% Wage Hike

Thu Dec 31, 2015 11:53 pm

Quoting jetblastdubai (Thread starter):
Not sure what to think of this. Were existing, negotiated wages insufficient or are they just trying to get more of the pie when business is good? If passed, does this also put UAL into a corner with the their "Delta Snap Up" language in their proposed agreement?

I don't think they will get 40% unless they take the last TA completely, but its openers.....thats the point. Both ask for a wish list then the real agreement will be lower than said wish list for both sides.

I expect the pay numbers will be about the same. 20-25%, it will be work rules and scope that will be better than the last TA.




or Anderson really will park them for 5-6 years.
 
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RE: Delta Alpa Seeking 40% Wage Hike

Fri Jan 01, 2016 12:01 am

Quoting deltal1011man (Reply 2):
I don't think they will get 40% unless they take the last TA completely, but its openers.....thats the point. Both ask for a wish list then the real agreement will be lower than said wish list for both sides.
Quoting United1 (Reply 1):
I'm not surprised they are asking for such a large raise however I would be shocked if they actually got it. Generally both sides will shoot for the moon and settle somewhere in the middle.

Yeah, exactly. It's an opener and both sides are expected to be far apart. What either side asks for and what they end up with on ratification are two completely different things.
 
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RE: Delta Alpa Seeking 40% Wage Hike

Fri Jan 01, 2016 12:13 am

Quoting jetblastdubai (Thread starter):
"Dec 31 (Reuters) - The union representing Delta Air Lines Inc's pilots is seeking a wage hike of about 40 percent compounded over three years as the carrier's profits surge

HA! Good luck with that.
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RE: Delta Alpa Seeking 40% Wage Hike

Fri Jan 01, 2016 12:52 am

Quoting United1 (Reply 1):
...I'm not surprised they are asking for such a large raise however I would be shocked if they actually got it. Generally both sides will shoot for the moon and settle somewhere in the middle.

Depends on what ALPA is willing to give up? I'm sure DL would love for larger RJs, say a 100k lb weight limit instead of the current 86k. Perhaps with a maximum of 92 seats?    Asking for 40% will not will in the court of public opinion, but DL could make a counter accepting, for the right counter conditions...

As already noted:

Quoting deltal1011man (Reply 2):
I don't think they will get 40% unless they take the last TA completely, but its openers.....thats the point. Both ask for a wish list then the real agreement will be lower than said wish list for both sides.

   If ALPA strikes, it only helps the competition.

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ridgid727
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RE: Delta Alpa Seeking 40% Wage Hike

Fri Jan 01, 2016 1:50 am

They deserve it. DL is turning unbelievable profits. Hope they get everything they want plus more. They deserve it!!
 
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RE: Delta Alpa Seeking 40% Wage Hike

Fri Jan 01, 2016 2:11 am

Quoting ridgid727 (Reply 6):

So what about the other employees... I dont think they deserve it at a tune of 40%. That's huge and for the company to tdke them srtiously, ALPA would have to give up a lot.
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global1
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RE: Delta Alpa Seeking 40% Wage Hike

Fri Jan 01, 2016 2:47 am

Exactly.

Other employees are very much watching.

I assume that the increase in pay would reflect adopting the same profit sharing formula that other employees have, as well as changes in work rules and new jet classifications (E190 etc...) which are beneficial to the enterprise.
Whatever increases in per-diem, the f/a's would expect a match, etc... It costs us just as much to eat.

These things have to be factored in for Delta to successfully keep unionizing campaigns at bay at other employee groups

[Edited 2015-12-31 18:48:32]

[Edited 2015-12-31 18:55:24]
 
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RE: Delta Alpa Seeking 40% Wage Hike

Fri Jan 01, 2016 3:01 am

Would be interesting if that proposal included a decrease in profit sharing.
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ROSWELL41
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RE: Delta Alpa Seeking 40% Wage Hike

Fri Jan 01, 2016 3:09 am

Delta pilots deserve every bit of it and more. Many lost pensions in bankruptcy and agreed to 50% pay cuts to save their company. In times of record profits, it's time for them to be made whole. There is absolutely no excuse for management not to pay up.
 
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RE: Delta Alpa Seeking 40% Wage Hike

Fri Jan 01, 2016 4:54 am

Quoting ROSWELL41 (Reply 10):
Delta pilots deserve every bit of it and more. Many lost pensions in bankruptcy and agreed to 50% pay cuts to save their company. In times of record profits, it's time for them to be made whole. There is absolutely no excuse for management not to pay up.

Really? Most employees lost their pensions, took HUGE pay cuts, and have lost the same benefits. The difference is, most employees make a whole lot less than the pilot group-even with the latest round of raises. Nobody has a pension. Fact is, this one group of employees has been coddled, spoon fed, and babied like no other group of employees in commercial aviation. I'm sorry, but even at starting wages, these guys make more than most-if they cannot live on these salaries, benefits, and all the perks that go along with it, maybe Delta should offer free financial counseling classes and therapy!!!! I understand it takes a lot of time, money, and education to get to their places as commercial airline pilots, but nobody held a gun to their head forcing them to get into this career field. It gets really old hearing the outlandish demands and seeing all of the concessions. Most of you do not realize that the pilots profit sharing is more than most ACS, GSE, and Aircraft Mechanics yearly salary. When is enough, enough??? It's always ME, ME, ME. No team work or family at all.
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RE: Delta Alpa Seeking 40% Wage Hike

Fri Jan 01, 2016 4:56 am

Quoting lightsaber (Reply 5):
Depends on what ALPA is willing to give up? I'm sure DL would love for larger RJs, say a 100k lb weight limit instead of the current 86k. Perhaps with a maximum of 92 seats?

The general feeling is, scope clause will never be given up, if anything, it will be pushed to go the other way. Personally, I feel like many ALPA groups would walk out before they were forced to change scope allowing more outsourcing.

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FlyHossD
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RE: Delta Alpa Seeking 40% Wage Hike

Fri Jan 01, 2016 4:58 am

Does anyone have any idea of how much DL pilot pay would be if only adjusted for inflation since deregulation? I really don't know what they made back then.
My statements do not represent my former employer or my current employer and are my opinions only.
 
jacobin777
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RE: Delta Alpa Seeking 40% Wage Hike

Fri Jan 01, 2016 5:07 am

Quoting jetblastdubai (Thread starter):

http://finance.yahoo.com/news/deltas...ots-union-seeks-big-224943179.html

"Dec 31 (Reuters) - The union representing Delta Air Lines Inc's pilots is seeking a wage hike of about 40 percent compounded over three years as the carrier's profits surge, Bloomberg reported, citing a memo from the Air Line Pilots Association.
Quoting ridgid727 (Reply 6):

They deserve it. DL is turning unbelievable profits. Hope they get everything they want plus more. They deserve it!!
Quoting ROSWELL41 (Reply 10):
In times of record profits, it's time for them to be made whole.
Quoting ROSWELL41 (Reply 10):
There is absolutely no excuse for management not to pay up.

The problem is first of all profits have surged but as harsh as it sounds, they are employees of the company. Shareholders and bondholders should get first "dibs" on the profits. There is nothing from stopping employees from getting more stock in DL so they can take part in the "massive profits".

Second - DL if anything should pay down most, if not all its debts and have money for "rainy days" (years actually).

Third - they are asking for a massive increase in wages (even if they don't get the 40%) when IMHO the aviation cycle is at or near the peak of its cycle. By the time these wages really start taking effect, the market will start to see a downturn and on will start to see the problems which affect the aviation industry in general.

While DL pilots deserve to be compensated according to market forces, rarely does one see any industry where a group of employees get 30%-40% raises in a matter of few years. Regardless if they had to take a previous pay cut or not.
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INFINITI329
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RE: Delta Alpa Seeking 40% Wage Hike

Fri Jan 01, 2016 5:07 am

Quoting tu154m (Reply 11):
Fact is, this one group of employees has been coddled, spoon fed, and babied like no other group of employees in commercial aviation. I'm sorry, but even at starting wages, these guys make more than most-if they cannot live on these salaries, benefits, and all the perks that go along with it,

You cannot deny they are the most important work group at any airline. Every Team has their superstars, and pilots are it.
 
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RE: Delta Alpa Seeking 40% Wage Hike

Fri Jan 01, 2016 5:23 am

Quoting infiniti329 (Reply 15):

You cannot deny they are the most important work group at any airline. Every Team has their superstars, and pilots are it.

Really doubt if you could operate an airline without MOST of the work groups there are, now.
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RE: Delta Alpa Seeking 40% Wage Hike

Fri Jan 01, 2016 5:59 am

Nobody deserves to be overpaid, let's get real. What you get paid has nothing to do with what you deserve. Nothing whatsoever, unless you are speaking to your own father. People lost their pensions before and they will go right to the brink again, and will lose everything again. Just please don't tell us this is about anything other than down and dirty hustling. It is what it is. You get what you can, while you can.
 
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RE: Delta Alpa Seeking 40% Wage Hike

Fri Jan 01, 2016 7:26 am

Quoting ROSWELL41 (Reply 10):
Delta pilots deserve every bit of it and more. Many lost pensions in bankruptcy and agreed to 50% pay cuts to save their company. In times of record profits, it's time for them to be made whole.

It is going to get interesting when the economic tide turns. It ALWAYS does.

Pilots are too near sighted to see that in the long run they have competition in the form of start-ups. DL pay goes to stratosphere (followed by AA, UA and WN), and setting up new airlines with pay rates tied to labor market reality just becomes very attractive.
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RE: Delta Alpa Seeking 40% Wage Hike

Fri Jan 01, 2016 9:14 am

Haha good luck with that
 
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RE: Delta Alpa Seeking 40% Wage Hike

Fri Jan 01, 2016 9:47 am

Quoting ROSWELL41 (Reply 10):
Many lost pensions in bankruptcy and agreed to 50% pay cuts to save their company.

And no other DL employees did?   

Quoting infiniti329 (Reply 15):
You cannot deny they are the most important work group at any airline.

No, they're just employees like the cabin crew, dispatchers and all the back-room staff. The pilots are going nowhere without all those other folks.   


I really don't understand the god-like view that some have of pilots.
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flyDTW1992
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RE: Delta Alpa Seeking 40% Wage Hike

Fri Jan 01, 2016 11:21 am

Quoting scbriml (Reply 20):
No, they're just employees like the cabin crew, dispatchers and all the back-room staff. The pilots are going nowhere without all those other folks.   


I really don't understand the god-like view that some have of pilots.

        
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RE: Delta Alpa Seeking 40% Wage Hike

Fri Jan 01, 2016 12:39 pm

Quoting tu154m (Reply 11):
Fact is, this one group of employees has been coddled, spoon fed, and babied like no other group of employees in commercial aviation.

Reality is that this group is unionized, stick together and stand their ground, the idea that management and shareholders coddle, spoon feed and baby them is not even similar to having a perspective of glass half full or glass half empty.
Management would put the same rules and conditions and pay scales on the pilots group if they could, reality is that they cannot because of the actions of the group.

The Eastern and NW strikers stood their ground, lost their jobs and a large number say serve's them right, hardly given any credit for standing up for something, principle is going the way of the dodo.
How much different would the industry have been if staff did not do give backs, investors fought chpt.11, and airlines were forced to "live and operate within their means"? No one seems to talk much these days about the huge bonuses given to management who trimmed the fat while the losses continued, we had some interesting threads.
How could an industry loose billions while continuing to operate, who exactly was loosing money so that now things are profitable they need to make up, definitely not the initial investors since most got wiped out in chpt.11 just like staff.

To do a mirror look, the issue then could be, why is management paying the rest of the employee groups so little, the shareholders make a lot because they took the risk to invest, the pilots make a lot because they demand it, and the rest get.........because market forces say that is what they are worth.
Okay.
 
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RE: Delta Alpa Seeking 40% Wage Hike

Fri Jan 01, 2016 2:29 pm

Quoting infiniti329 (Reply 15):
You cannot deny they are the most important work group at any airline. Every Team has their superstars, and pilots are it.

Yet without the FAs, all of those superstar pilots would be flying empty planes.

Quoting incitatus (Reply 18):
It is going to get interesting when the economic tide turns. It ALWAYS does.

Exactly. The trick for the unions is to sign a contract at the top of the market. If we're not there, we must be close.

David
 
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RE: Delta Alpa Seeking 40% Wage Hike

Fri Jan 01, 2016 3:14 pm

Quoting diverdave (Reply 23):
Exactly. The trick for the unions is to sign a contract at the top of the market. If we're not there, we must be close.

Davi

Pretty much sums it up 40% though is obscene and not likely to happen. Delta went down this path when they first bought the 777 back in 98 and it didn't happen then either.
 
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RE: Delta Alpa Seeking 40% Wage Hike

Fri Jan 01, 2016 3:29 pm

Quoting tu154m (Reply 11):
but nobody held a gun to their head forcing them to get into this career field.

Nor was a gun held to the heads of any of the the other employees.

Quoting par13del (Reply 22):
No one seems to talk much these days about the huge bonuses given to management who trimmed the fat while the losses continued

Which is part of the fuel feeding the negotiations.
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pjc747
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RE: Delta Alpa Seeking 40% Wage Hike

Fri Jan 01, 2016 3:46 pm

Pilots aren't just any other employee. Yes, you need all the parts to make the operation happen, but pilots have a unique and important role. Yes, FAs are there primarily for safety and emergency, but the safety and reliability of commercial aviation is so high that an entire career as an FA can be entered with the expectation of mainly dealing with passengers, giving food, drinks, etc.

The pilots, however, have a massive responsibility. They are ultimately responsible for the lives of hundreds of people aboard who depend on them, and them alone, to be safely delivered to their destination. The fate of those passengers, their safety, that of a machine worth scores of millions, along with all its cargo, are in their supreme charge. Ticket agents, baggage handlers, gate attendants, food caterers, and FAs do not have such a massive responsibility. Therefore having the highest pay, and most generous pay in the company, it proper and is prudent when those employees are depended upon so much.

Yes, you need training to do any job related to commercial aviation, but it takes years of training and hard work to make it to a legacy carrier, an investment of time, energy, higher education, low pay at regional airlines to become a legacy pilot. Not so with any other job. Any reasonably competent person can be trained to be a ticket agent, baggage handler, caterer, tug operator, and many other jobs are low-skill jobs to boot. It is a massive leap of expertise and investment from any other related job to pilots.
 
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RE: Delta Alpa Seeking 40% Wage Hike

Fri Jan 01, 2016 3:50 pm

Quoting FlyASAGuy2005 (Reply 7):
So what about the other employees... I dont think they deserve it at a tune of 40%. That's huge and for the company to tdke them srtiously, ALPA would have to give up a lot.

ALPA is not likely to give up a single penny to the other employee groups who they couldn't care less about. Asking for a 40% raise when they are already in the 95th percentile of all US wage earners is a bit excessive.
 
incitatus
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RE: Delta Alpa Seeking 40% Wage Hike

Fri Jan 01, 2016 4:35 pm

Quoting par13del (Reply 22):
How much different would the industry have been if staff did not do give backs, investors fought chpt.11, and airlines were forced to "live and operate within their means"?

Very different. Then some airlines would have liquidated.

Quoting par13del (Reply 22):
Management would put the same rules and conditions and pay scales on the pilots group if they could, reality is that they cannot because of the actions of the group.

That is the concerning part. In the long run pilot raises at DL and at airlines that follow can price them out of the market. In the short run they absolutely have leverage and will get 40% raises if they want them. No need to meet in the middle.
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mayor
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RE: Delta Alpa Seeking 40% Wage Hike

Fri Jan 01, 2016 4:38 pm

Quoting SPREE34 (Reply 25):

Nor was a gun held to the heads of any of the the other employees.

And I don't believe any of the other work groups are claiming that.

Quoting pjc747 (Reply 26):

Sky Gods  
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global1
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RE: Delta Alpa Seeking 40% Wage Hike

Fri Jan 01, 2016 4:54 pm

Absolutely, safety is job one. But the traveling public takes this as a given. They don't leave an airplane thinking "gosh, Delta got me here safely, so I intend to be loyal to them". They assume American, United, or Spirit would have done the same.

Repeat business and loyalty is driven by the interface they've had with the brand in general. From res, to the ticket counters, SkyClubs, CSA's at the gate, the FA's (the group of people who spend by far the most time with the customer and therefore have a unique opportunity to 'make or break' their experience), luggage being delivered on time. etc...

All groups are important to the customer experience. And if CSA's, F/A's, RAMP, IT, etc.. don't deliver, the pilot's wont have to worry about their contract because no one will be knocking on our door.

[Edited 2016-01-01 09:07:02]
 
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SuseJ772
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RE: Delta Alpa Seeking 40% Wage Hike

Fri Jan 01, 2016 5:12 pm

Quoting mayor (Reply 16):
Really doubt if you could operate an airline without MOST of the work groups there are, now.
Quoting scbriml (Reply 20):

No, they're just employees like the cabin crew, dispatchers and all the back-room staff. The pilots are going nowhere without all those other folks.
Quoting diverdave (Reply 23):
Yet without the FAs, all of those superstar pilots would be flying empty planes.

In full disclosure, I am not a pilot (at least one that gets paid to pilot) and I don't work at an airline.

The issue of importance - like salary - isn't based on need, but rather how easy it is to replace someone. It's supply and demand, only instead of goods, it is employees. This is why Pilots are more important (and are paid as such). It is incredibly hard to find good ones. Flight attendant, like teachers, fulfill a very important role, but it is a hell of a lot easier to replace flight attendants than it is pilots. And it is even easier to replace ground crew, than flight attendants. It's also why Dispatchers are paid more than Flight Attendants.

It's why Software Developers are paid more than IT Help Desk.

This is the way the world works.

[Edited 2016-01-01 09:13:31]
Currently at PIE, requesting FWA >> >>
 
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cougar15
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RE: Delta Alpa Seeking 40% Wage Hike

Fri Jan 01, 2016 5:12 pm

Quoting mayor (Reply 29):
Sky Gods

I was gonna make the same comment  

Today an Airline flight to me is a supply chain and every link in the chain needs to work! Now at Delta, things maybe a .. aehm little different due to the interesting fleet mix! I think an MD80 Skipper has a heck of a lot more to do than for example a T7 or 73NG Captain (which I think a well trained 25 year old of the Playstation Generation is totally capable of!)
However - and fully appreciating the pilots sacrifices during CH11, every other bloody worker/link in the chain had to make those sacrifices too!
40% is ludicrous and....



Quoting incitatus (Reply 18):
It is going to get interesting when the economic tide turns. It ALWAYS does.

Those times will return!
Personal opinion only, but I preffer a Bonus System covering things like controllable delays (a Skygod being a dick and authorative about things like late loadsheets, when everyone is trying their best to make the STD etc etc... not included! ) would be the way forward to me!

Again, flamebait me, personal opinion only, but I do as a pessimist like to think over the brim of my teacup!
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RE: Delta Alpa Seeking 40% Wage Hike

Fri Jan 01, 2016 5:49 pm

Quoting pjc747 (Reply 26):
The pilots, however, have a massive responsibility. They are ultimately responsible for the lives of hundreds of people aboard who depend on them, and them alone, to be safely delivered to their destination.

Same responsibility as train drivers. Or bus drivers. Or anyone working at controling an nuclear reactor. Or any other job of great responsibility. You still will see that most other work groups with a similar responsibility are some of the lowest income groups in our society.

People are not paid by direct responsibility. They are paid by "supply and demand". If it is a job that can be done by a huge mass of people (after being trained to do it properly) the supply will be larger than the demand, thus the payment is low. Pilots still think they are gods and the supply is limited. They don't understand that there are huge masses of people who would like to have their job.
As soon as the airlines in the US are getting back to school and train enough new pilots instead of picking them up from flying schools and part 135 operators, they will have full control over the supply again. Thus there is no chance for the pilots demand such hilarous high raises.

Quoting jetblastdubai (Thread starter):
The union representing Delta Air Lines Inc's pilots is seeking a wage hike of about 40 percent compounded over three years as the carrier's profits surge, Bloomberg reported, citing a memo from the Air Line Pilots Association.

Is there one zero too much in that quote? If they are really asking for a 40% raise, their brains must have been shrunken to a mushroom sized form by all the radition they get from flying all the time. Four percent over three years sounds realistic, that would be a raise along with the average yearly inflation. Everything above inflation can not be tolerated by the airlines.
 
CV880
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RE: Delta Alpa Seeking 40% Wage Hike

Fri Jan 01, 2016 5:57 pm

Quoting ROSWELL41 (Reply 10):
Many lost pensions in bankruptcy and agreed to 50% pay cuts to save their company. In times of record profits, it's time for them to be made whole. There is absolutely no excuse for management not to pay up.

Many, who were at minimum retirement age, walked away with million dollar payouts which helped drive DL into BK. Some of these payouts were $2-300mil per month which DL could not sustain. These payouts were the result of a new contract around the turn of the century (2000) when senior pilot salaries went north of $300k per year. After that, pilots at UA & AA demanded increases. Pilot pensions were dumped as a result of the lump sum payouts. The pilots who were not of retirement age were the ones that got screwed as their pensions went to the PBGC.
 
pjc747
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RE: Delta Alpa Seeking 40% Wage Hike

Fri Jan 01, 2016 6:07 pm

Quoting CARST (Reply 33):
Same responsibility as train drivers. Or bus drivers. Or anyone working at controling an nuclear reactor. Or any other job of great responsibility. You still will see that most other work groups with a similar responsibility are some of the lowest income groups in our society.

But the comments I made were to respond to those who believe that the pilots are no more a worthy recipient of such increases in compensation as others.

Nonetheless the skill required to be a rail engineer is significant, but not nearly as that of a a pilot, and frankly it does not require much skill to become a bus or shuttle driver in the U.S. The difference between the task at hand and elements involved is a great distance between pilot of the air and from the land. This is how one may rectify a 20% to 40% increase in the compensation of pilots. It is a massive jump, but it is a jump applied to a group whose merit is substantial to receive it. A crew of two pilots have more individual responsibility than any of those mentioned groups, and any groups involved in commercial airline operations. As such, if an increase in compensation by the world's most profitable airline is to be given, which it is, then it is natural and prudent that it be given, in priority, to that group which is of most value, importance, and significance.
 
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RE: Delta Alpa Seeking 40% Wage Hike

Fri Jan 01, 2016 6:38 pm

All that such a demand is going to mean is that the contract doesn't get amended for 3-5 more years, during which time the economic tide will doubtless turn. They could have had the TA, but they rejected it and came in with ridiculous demands, and so there won't be an amendment for a while.

Unless they quietly give up something of value. Pension? RJs? Profit sharing?

Because what isn't going to happen is DL's net pilot cost per hour going up 40 percent. Wages? Sure. GIve up something to offset it.

And now we will hear a bunch of whining and bitching about DL being "unfair", blah, blah. "Managment bonuses" blah blah. "Safety" blah blah. "Gave up in hard times" blah blah.

So tiresome but predictable: just like Allegiant, DL will be cast as an unfair employer who works its hero pilots to death and makes their lives so hard while flying dangerous old equipment, all the time paying them more annually than 95 percent of the workers in the US (and in the one-percent of hourly compensation).

So humorous to hear the one-percent being so demanding while the rest of the country struggles to maintain a teensy rate of growth.

[Edited 2016-01-01 10:49:18]
 
flyDTW1992
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RE: Delta Alpa Seeking 40% Wage Hike

Fri Jan 01, 2016 6:46 pm

Quoting pjc747 (Reply 35):
Nonetheless the skill required to be a rail engineer is significant, but not nearly as that of a a pilot, and frankly it does not require much skill to become a bus or shuttle driver in the U.S. The difference between the task at hand and elements involved is a great distance between pilot of the air and from the land. This is how one may rectify a 20% to 40% increase in the compensation of pilots. It is a massive jump, but it is a jump applied to a group whose merit is substantial to receive it. A crew of two pilots have more individual responsibility than any of those mentioned groups, and any groups involved in commercial airline operations. As such, if an increase in compensation by the world's most profitable airline is to be given, which it is, then it is natural and prudent that it be given, in priority, to that group which is of most value, importance, and significance.

All hail the skygods   
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global1
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RE: Delta Alpa Seeking 40% Wage Hike

Fri Jan 01, 2016 6:46 pm

Bingo!

If the demands being made are unrealistic, Delta could take the long, slow road and this could take years to play itself out.
 
flyDTW1992
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RE: Delta Alpa Seeking 40% Wage Hike

Fri Jan 01, 2016 6:54 pm

Quoting wjcandee (Reply 36):
So tiresome but predictable: just like Allegiant, DL will be cast as an unfair employer who works its hero pilots to death and makes their lives so hard while flying dangerous old equipment, all the time paying them more annually than 95 percent of the workers in the US (and in the one-percent of hourly compensation).

I don't see that being allowed to happen. I don't think Delta's top brass would dare invite that kind of PR, and as such I think some sort of common ground will be reached before things unravel to that extent.
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threeifbyair
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RE: Delta Alpa Seeking 40% Wage Hike

Fri Jan 01, 2016 7:24 pm

Quoting suseJ772 (Reply 31):
The issue of importance - like salary - isn't based on need, but rather how easy it is to replace someone. It's supply and demand, only instead of goods, it is employees. This is why Pilots are more important (and are paid as such). It is incredibly hard to find good ones. Flight attendant, like teachers, fulfill a very important role, but it is a hell of a lot easier to replace flight attendants than it is pilots. And it is even easier to replace ground crew, than flight attendants. It's also why Dispatchers are paid more than Flight Attendants.

Yep.

Same reason actuaries get paid massive salaries. Very hard to get new ones.

Kind of hard for any other DL workers to threaten a strike since they don't belong to unions. The pilots do, and they are taking advantage of that leverage. The supply of new pilots is very constrained. DL pilots know that. They aren't going to get 40%, but they know that a strike would hurt DL profits badly.
 
deltal1011man
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RE: Delta Alpa Seeking 40% Wage Hike

Fri Jan 01, 2016 7:35 pm

jeesh.
Its frickin openers people. Amazing so many think the pilots (or company) should start out negotiating with what they expect to get.

Quoting lightsaber (Reply 5):

   If ALPA strikes, it only helps the competition.

ALPA wont strike. Government wont let them. NMB has already made it clear, when the 9E pilots tried to strike, strikes are done at UA/AA/DL and WN. They are simply to big to fail now.

Quoting FlyASAGuy2005 (Reply 7):

So what about the other employees...

What about them? They want 40% then vote in a union and negotiate for it.

What about the pilots when everyone else gets a random 14% raise? I assume you believe Delta should have given it to the pilots out of the goodness of their hearts also?

Quoting global1 (Reply 8):
Whatever increases in per-diem, the f/a's would expect a match, etc... It costs us just as much to eat.

How exactly is that DALPAs problem? you want higher per-diem and want it like the pilots, vote in a union and negotiate for it. If you don't want a union then you are at will and shouldn't expect the pilots to care about how much money you make.

oh and little hint, if I were you per-diem wouldn't be my b**ching point. Triple what you get into your 401K is where I would start with management, but thats just me.

Quoting DiamondFlyer (Reply 12):
Personally, I feel like many ALPA groups would walk out before they were forced to change scope allowing more outsourcing.

ha
years and years and years of ALPA backing down on scope and you still have faith? You sir, are one of the very few.

Quoting infiniti329 (Reply 15):
You cannot deny they are the most important work group at any airline. Every Team has their superstars, and pilots are it.

uh, yeah I can. No maintenance they don't leave the ground. No FAs they leave the ground without revenue. No agents to check people in, load the bags, etc. etc. again they leave the ground without revenue.

They spend the most on education and have a tough life. I get that, and they should be paid more because of it. But more important or stars of the team? nope.

Quoting incitatus (Reply 18):

Pilots are too near sighted to see that in the long run they have competition in the form of start-ups.

So they should wait for the down turn, take even more pay cuts?

its not being near sighted, Nothing DALPA is going to do is going to keep Delta in the black. Sorry. Its an up and down industry, gotta take when you can.

Quoting scbriml (Reply 20):

I really don't understand the god-like view that some have of pilots.

me either. Most are fine, but that 1-5% is exactly why working on planes in hangars, is a much better job.

Quoting BravoOne (Reply 24):

Pretty much sums it up 40% though is obscene and not likely to happen. Delta went down this path when they first bought the 777 back in 98 and it didn't happen then either.

again, openers.
everyone take a step back and chill. It isn't going to happen. Nothing to see here......

Quoting pjc747 (Reply 26):
Pilots aren't just any other employee.

yes they are.

Quoting pjc747 (Reply 26):

The pilots, however, have a massive responsibility. They are ultimately responsible for the lives of hundreds of people aboard who depend on them, and them alone, to be safely delivered to their destination. The fate of those passengers, their safety, that of a machine worth scores of millions, along with all its cargo, are in their supreme charge. Ticket agents, baggage handlers, gate attendants, food caterers, and FAs do not have such a massive responsibility. Therefore having the highest pay, and most generous pay in the company, it proper and is prudent when those employees are depended upon so much.

wait.

no no no. I'm sorry.

That big tube they are flying, it leaves the ground and stays up there because of maintenance. Unless you think you can fly an airplane without maintenance.

smh pilots can really be the worst sometimes.


Oh and Delta pilots who comment, just remember.....your union is asking for all this money, you can also thank TechOps for keeping costs really low and bringing in almost 1B in extra revenue.

Quoting CARST (Reply 33):

Is there one zero too much in that quote? If they are really asking for a 40% raise, their brains must have been shrunken to a mushroom sized form by all the radition they get from flying all the time. Four percent over three years sounds realistic, that would be a raise along with the average yearly inflation. Everything above inflation can not be tolerated by the airlines.

uhhh. Please don't even get involved in US labor negotiations
signed every airline employee ever.

Quoting wjcandee (Reply 36):
All that such a demand is going to mean is that the contract doesn't get amended for 3-5 more years, during which time the economic tide will doubtless turn. They could have had the TA, but they rejected it and came in with ridiculous demands, and so there won't be an amendment for a while.

If you think they should have taken that TA then you know nothing about their current contract or you don't like money. Seeing your other comments, my guess is both.

expecting DALPA to take huge concessions in a time of 20% operating margins and billions and billions of stock buy backs making management a lot richer is horse crap.

Quoting wjcandee (Reply 36):
So tiresome but predictable: just like Allegiant, DL will be cast as an unfair employer who works its hero pilots to death and makes their lives so hard while flying dangerous old equipment, all the time paying them more annually than 95 percent of the workers in the US (and in the one-percent of hourly compensation).

So humorous to hear the one-percent being so demanding while the rest of the country struggles to maintain a teensy rate of growth.

Nah they couldn't say they. They are worked on but your beloved MROs.  

real world, again, When has DALPA ever done such? Delta/DALPA have always had a good relationship and very very rarely has it gotten real ugly. Its openers.

I hope DALPA releases the Delta opener. I bet this thread turns in a real quick hurry when people like you see the companies wish list.
 
calpilot
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RE: Delta Alpa Seeking 40% Wage Hike

Fri Jan 01, 2016 7:48 pm

Deserve, replace, Sky God, Employee Group vs Employee group, one group more important than another,,, all the insults on and on.

Look, it takes everyone in a company pulling together, everyone is important. For an airline GSR's, FA's, Ramp personal work hard dealing with difficult customers, difficult conditions, difficult management, difficult co-workers, etc.

However, just ask yourself one question (just one is all it takes), if you were to replace any one person, within any one employee group FA's, GSR's, Ramp, Clerical, Support, etc., with an Off The Street hire (from scratch, HS education or college). To do it well, to meet FAA requirements to be hired, to be competitive with other career fields.
How long would it take to train that individual?

Correct me for facts on these time waggs?

F/A 7 to 9 weeks
CSR 6 to 8 weeks
Ramp 4 to 6 weeks
Clerical, office support 6 to 8 weeks
MX technician 1 to 3 years

Pilot: Commercial Rated or ATP Rated , 1500 hrs minimum flight time, Multi engine experience, PIC experience, jet aircraft experience preferred, College degree required (at DL) 3 to 6 years

I support my co-workers, I admire the hard work each and everyone of them do, they help make the company, and my job possible; I'm sure they could earn the same wages I'm payed for flying a B757 as well. So, Spend a $100K in flight lessons, join the Air Force, or Navy, and get the same career.?
 
loggat
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RE: Delta Alpa Seeking 40% Wage Hike

Fri Jan 01, 2016 7:52 pm

http://web.mit.edu/airlinedata/www/2...ployee%20Data%20and%20Analysis.htm

You may notice that the pilots are the only work group that haven't exceeded their highest pre bankruptcy salary levels.

Just as an example, the Flight Attendants are currently about 21% higher than their highest pre-BK salary (including the 14.5% raise received on Dec 1st).

The pilots would need a 31% salary increase from the 2014 numbers listed on the chart to also be 21% higher than their highest pre-BK avg salaries.

I don't think opening with a 40% negotiating position is out of line. That is effectively the ceiling as far as ALPA's position.
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mmo
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RE: Delta Alpa Seeking 40% Wage Hike

Fri Jan 01, 2016 7:57 pm

Quoting CV880 (Reply 34):
he pilots who were not of retirement age were the ones that got screwed as their pensions went to the PBGC.

You might want to brush up on your history. That is not what happened at DL/NW. The pension shutdown was a negotiated event. It was NOT turned over to PBGC. IIRC UA and perhaps US were turned over to PGBC.
If we weren't all crazy we'd all go insane!
 
loggat
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RE: Delta Alpa Seeking 40% Wage Hike

Fri Jan 01, 2016 8:03 pm

Quoting MMO (Reply 44):
It was NOT turned over to PBGC

Sure about that?

http://www.pbgc.gov/wr/trusteed/plans/plan-20544100.html
There are 3 types of people in this world, those that can count, and those that can't.
 
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NWAROOSTER
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RE: Delta Alpa Seeking 40% Wage Hike

Fri Jan 01, 2016 8:16 pm

Pilots at Northwest Airlines when they went on strike NEVER wanted any other employees or Union group to honor their picket line. They did, however if I remember correctly, insist that any other employees that did honor their picket line be recalled as a part of their back to work agreement. They also were so smart that they did not always proof read the contract offered before acceptance and ratification. When Northwest started making work rule changes the pilots did not like, Northwest's response was "read your new contract, as these changes are allowed per the contract."
Also, if any other employee group went on strike, the pilots were the first to cross the picket line.
If Richard could break the pilot's union at Delta, it would be one of his happiest day in his life.   
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mayor
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RE: Delta Alpa Seeking 40% Wage Hike

Fri Jan 01, 2016 8:23 pm

Quoting MMO (Reply 44):
You might want to brush up on your history. That is not what happened at DL/NW. The pension shutdown was a negotiated event. It was NOT turned over to PBGC. IIRC UA and perhaps US were turned over to PGBC.

I believe you'e incorrect. The pensions of the non-contract employees were not turned over to the PBGC, but those of the pilots certainly were. Those of the non-contract employees were the beneficiaries of the Pension Protection Act of 2006.
"A committee is a group of the unprepared, appointed by the unwilling, to do the unnecessary"----Fred Allen
 
pjc747
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RE: Delta Alpa Seeking 40% Wage Hike

Fri Jan 01, 2016 8:25 pm

Quoting deltal1011man (Reply 41):
wait.

no no no. I'm sorry.

That big tube they are flying, it leaves the ground and stays up there because of maintenance. Unless you think you can fly an airplane without maintenance.

smh pilots can really be the worst sometimes.

Right so pilots really don't make it happen, I forgot. Maintenance is a necessity, but the skills that make a skilled auto mechanic make a skilled marine mechanic and make a skilled IA. It just requires more regulatory licensing and such. It is skill and it is valuable, but working on airplanes is not a unique trade, its just an area of working with machines. The fact it flies and doesn't break is more a testament to engineers and fabricators than mechanics.

Pilots aren't gods, but they actually make the flight happen. They require hundreds if not thousands of hours of flying time and experience, detailed training and the ability to accomplish all these complex tasks with great precision under an incredible range of circumstances. Any other employee doesn't shoot an ILS approach hand-flying into blizzard conditions where you can't see anything until you're 300ft above it. The fact that every pilot isn't cut out for the requirements of ATP flying and operations says something/
 
flyDTW1992
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RE: Delta Alpa Seeking 40% Wage Hike

Fri Jan 01, 2016 8:38 pm

Quoting pjc747 (Reply 48):
but working on airplanes is not a unique trade, its just an area of working with machines. The fact it flies and doesn't break is more a testament to engineers and fabricators than mechanics.

Nonsense.

Quoting pjc747 (Reply 48):
Any other employee doesn't shoot an ILS approach hand-flying into blizzard conditions where you can't see anything until you're 300ft above it.

But a mechanic ensures that aircraft is rated for ILS operations and all its equipment is prepared to get the airplane on the ground at the pilots' direction.

A dispatcher determines whether the destination is reachable under current conditions and makes a decision with the captain whether or not to launch.

Flight attendants evacuate that plane's cabin when the aircraft overshoots the runway due to snow and ice.

Ramp workers painstakingly deiced it in open buckets in a -15 degree windchill to ensure the complete safety of everyone onboard.
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