Quoting deltal1011man (Reply 2): I don't think they will get 40% unless they take the last TA completely, but its openers.....thats the point. Both ask for a wish list then the real agreement will be lower than said wish list for both sides.

It's not an opener, it's a re-opener. Meaning that only those sections that are deemed unsatisfactory are being re-opened since there has already been an tentative agreement.

Quoting PGNCS (Reply 3): Yeah, exactly. It's an opener and both sides are expected to be far apart. What either side asks for and what they end up with on ratification are two completely different things.

Again, it's not an opener.

Quoting lightsaber (Reply 5): Depends on what ALPA is willing to give up? I'm sure DL would love for larger RJs, say a 100k lb weight limit instead of the current 86k. Perhaps with a maximum of 92 seats?    Asking for 40% will not will in the court of public opinion, but DL could make a counter accepting, for the right counter conditions...

Regionals can't even fill the pilot openings they have now...what makes you think they could fly additional routes?

Quoting lightsaber (Reply 5):   If ALPA strikes, it only helps the competition.

Not really, most pilot contracts prohibit their company from adding additional flights to fly routes that are flown by other pilots currently on strike. Why do you think Delta doesn't add routes to CDG/AMS whenever their pilots go on strike? Plus, Delta doesn't like bad PR...they won't let it get to that point.

Quoting ridgid727 (Reply 6): They deserve it. DL is turning unbelievable profits. Hope they get everything they want plus more. They deserve it!!

Yes, absolutely. It's time that people other than the fat cats at the top get a little dough.

Quoting FlyASAGuy2005 (Reply 7): So what about the other employees... I dont think they deserve it at a tune of 40%. That's huge and for the company to tdke them srtiously, ALPA would have to give up a lot.

Why should ALPA care about the other employees? They're the ones stupid enough to vote down a union. They have to worry about their members and their members only. If the other employees want more then they should get a union...otherwise go get a bag of popcorn from Delta and be happy.

Quoting tu154m (Reply 11): Really? Most employees lost their pensions, took HUGE pay cuts, and have lost the same benefits. The difference is, most employees make a whole lot less than the pilot group-even with the latest round of raises. Nobody has a pension. Fact is, this one group of employees has been coddled, spoon fed, and babied like no other group of employees in commercial aviation. I'm sorry, but even at starting wages, these guys make more than most-if they cannot live on these salaries, benefits, and all the perks that go along with it, maybe Delta should offer free financial counseling classes and therapy!!!! I understand it takes a lot of time, money, and education to get to their places as commercial airline pilots, but nobody held a gun to their head forcing them to get into this career field. It gets really old hearing the outlandish demands and seeing all of the concessions. Most of you do not realize that the pilots profit sharing is more than most ACS, GSE, and Aircraft Mechanics yearly salary. When is enough, enough??? It's always ME, ME, ME. No team work or family at all.

Again, Delta pilots are the only ones that have any leverage with Delta. They don't even have to go on strike to cause chaos. You can taxi and fly slower, not accept deferred mx writeups...you name it. They should get as much as they can...I know I would.

Quoting infiniti329 (Reply 15): You cannot deny they are the most important work group at any airline. Every Team has their superstars, and pilots are it.

Bingo!

Quoting mayor (Reply 16): Really doubt if you could operate an airline without MOST of the work groups there are, now.

True, but the other employees chose to let management determine how much they would get when they voted down unionization so they have no ground to stand on. Take it or there's the door bubba.

Quoting scbriml (Reply 20): Quoting ROSWELL41 (Reply 10): Many lost pensions in bankruptcy and agreed to 50% pay cuts to save their company. And no other DL employees did?    Quoting infiniti329 (Reply 15): You cannot deny they are the most important work group at any airline. No, they're just employees like the cabin crew, dispatchers and all the back-room staff. The pilots are going nowhere without all those other folks.    I really don't understand the god-like view that some have of pilots.

Again, the cabin crew and other departments at Delta made the choice (stupid in my opinion) to not have a union and let management choose how much they're worth. No room to cry because the pilots aren't that dumb to allow a management group to make all the decisions for them.

Quoting par13del (Reply 22): Reality is that this group is unionized, stick together and stand their ground, the idea that management and shareholders coddle, spoon feed and baby them is not even similar to having a perspective of glass half full or glass half empty. Management would put the same rules and conditions and pay scales on the pilots group if they could, reality is that they cannot because of the actions of the group.

Bingo!

Quoting diverdave (Reply 23): Yet without the FAs, all of those superstar pilots would be flying empty planes.

And the FAs chose to not have a union. So the pilots have a say, and the FAs get a bag of popcorn every Monday. Welcome aboard!

Quoting bobnwa (Reply 27): ALPA is not likely to give up a single penny to the other employee groups who they couldn't care less about. Asking for a 40% raise when they are already in the 95th percentile of all US wage earners is a bit excessive.

It's not a raise until their previous wages adjusted for inflation are reached. They gave up billions to keep Delta afloat...they should try and get that money back now that Delta is making billions.

Quoting flyDTW1992 (Reply 39): Quoting wjcandee (Reply 36): So tiresome but predictable: just like Allegiant, DL will be cast as an unfair employer who works its hero pilots to death and makes their lives so hard while flying dangerous old equipment, all the time paying them more annually than 95 percent of the workers in the US (and in the one-percent of hourly compensation). I don't see that being allowed to happen. I don't think Delta's top brass would dare invite that kind of PR, and as such I think some sort of common ground will be reached before things unravel to that extent.

I'd love to see the rat at the ATL airport. But that's just me.

Quoting threeifbyair (Reply 40): Yep. Same reason actuaries get paid massive salaries. Very hard to get new ones. Kind of hard for any other DL workers to threaten a strike since they don't belong to unions. The pilots do, and they are taking advantage of that leverage. The supply of new pilots is very constrained. DL pilots know that. They aren't going to get 40%, but they know that a strike would hurt DL profits badly.

Exactly! Can't complain if you gave up your right to negotiate your wages and benefits.

Quoting deltal1011man (Reply 41): ALPA wont strike. Government wont let them. NMB has already made it clear, when the 9E pilots tried to strike, strikes are done at UA/AA/DL and WN. They are simply to big to fail now.

Pilots don't need to strike to cause chaos at Delta. There's many things they can do to bring the operation to it's knees.

Quoting deltal1011man (Reply 41): Quoting global1 (Reply 8): Whatever increases in per-diem, the f/a's would expect a match, etc... It costs us just as much to eat. How exactly is that DALPAs problem? you want higher per-diem and want it like the pilots, vote in a union and negotiate for it. If you don't want a union then you are at will and shouldn't expect the pilots to care about how much money you make.

Bingo!

Quoting loggat (Reply 43): http://web.mit.edu/airlinedata/www/2...ployee%20Data%20and%20Analysis.htm You may notice that the pilots are the only work group that haven't exceeded their highest pre bankruptcy salary levels. Just as an example, the Flight Attendants are currently about 21% higher than their highest pre-BK salary (including the 14.5% raise received on Dec 1st).

You conveniently left out the fact that Flight Attendants today are much more productive then before bankruptcy. According to the same study you posted, Flight Attendants fly on average about 20% more then they did before bankruptcy. Pilots fly about 10% less. But nice try...

Quoting wedgetail737 (Reply 52): If ALPA struck against DL, AS would be doing the happy dance and it could be the end of the DL's Pacific hub.

It won't get to that point. Delta will meet most of ALPAs demands...just watch.

Quoting JoeCanuck (Reply 83): f you can grab a handful of cash, go for it...but don't pretend that flying an airplane is a mystical calling. Very few people flunk out of flying school. The globe is littered with wreckage caused by crappy pilots who made top dollar flying for airlines.

Hey Joe please try to control yourself and the flame bait. Since I see you're a Private pilot I can only assume you limited experience with airline ops...if any. Sounds as if for some reason you may not have made the cut and have chip on your shoulder?

MANY people flunk out of military training each year. Not sure what the current numbers are but they are real and airlines "retire" pilots for a number of reason due to proficiency. They do not turn a blind eye and let the continue which is more than on can say for Doctors. You have to kill quite a few before it get the attention of the hospital staff. BTW, Doctors routinely kill themselves in airplanes as well.

CRM was developed for the medical profession way before it was embraced by the airlines here in the US. There is/was a good reason for that.

Quoting mayor (Reply 93): All I'm saying is that if you've got two people competing for the same job......the first one has a college degree and a minimum number of hours and very little experience and the second has NO college degree, but many more hours than the first applicant in more types of a/c as well as, naturally, more experience.........WHICH one is the more qualified for the job, discounting the college degree requirement? Considering there seems to be a shortage of qualified pilots in the pool, doesn't it seem to make sense to open up the requirements, a bit to give the airline more to choose from?

Not sure why you're arguing this point here. You should contact HR at Delta first thing Monday morning and let them know their college degree requirement is wrong.

They'll be happy to stop cancelling flights due to the current lack of qualified pilots.

Quoting MSPNWA (Reply 99): They won't get 40% in an agreement, but it's a fair play for starting true negotiations--something DL hasn't had to deal with.

?

Delta's pilots have been unionized for ages. This is hardly the first time they've done this.

Quoting IPFreely (Reply 102): Not sure why you're arguing this point here. You should contact HR at Delta first thing Monday morning and let them know their college degree requirement is wrong.

Doesn't make any difference to me........I've already put my time in at DL. I'm just curious and, frankly, I thought I'd get a more intelligent discussion out of it.

Quoting OOer (Reply 100): True, but the other employees chose to let management determine how much they would get when they voted down unionization so they have no ground to stand on. Take it or there's the door bubba.

Quoting OOer (Reply 100): And the FAs chose to not have a union.

The F/As (and other groups) figured it's better to have it the way it is, now, rather than have an outfit similar to the Mafia, representing them.

Quoting copter808 (Reply 92): I quite agree--in part. Give them a big chunk of pay when the airline makes huge profits. BUT, during the lean years when the airline is LOSING money, let those same pilots PAY TO WORK. If they aren't willing to do that, then maybe they need to accept a more realistic salary/contract.

Quoting copter808 (Reply 92): Hmmm, really? When was the last time you noticed a PILOT marshaling a plane into the ramp? Don't recall PILOTS loading and unloading the airplane either. Never noticed a PILOT working the ticket counter either. (referring to airline flying, not corporate)

I'm guessing that there are none left in the pilot group who remember how the pilots and F/As were kept on the payroll during the fuel crisis in '73 or so. Many of them back then worked the ramp or cargo or worked the phones. They might do well to read up on that.


For those, here that have always considered DL the "evil empire", you might do well to read up on it, too.

Mayor, you silly goose. That doesn't fit their script of Delta Hate. Delta didn't "furlough every fall." They just can't accept that it's ok to be happy working for a company. I've been in this Industry a long time--and I'm better off at Delta the way it is than I EVER was a a "represented" carrier. Full disclosure: I'm not inherently anti-union. I don't want/need it here. If it sucked to be us AA and UA wouldn't be negotiating based on our work rules/pay. Who's leading the way?

Quoting delimit (Reply 103): ? Delta's pilots have been unionized for ages. This is hardly the first time they've done this.

That's not the point. The point is true negotiations. The past union leadership was so weak and unprofessional for that job that negotiations really didn't take place. This is the first time is a while (ever?) that DL management has had to face that.

Quoting MSPNWA (Reply 107): That's not the point. The point is true negotiations. The past union leadership was so weak and unprofessional for that job that negotiations really didn't take place. This is the first time is a while (ever?) that DL management has had to face that.

No it's not. If you knew as much about Delta as you think you do, you'd realize that DL went thru this with the pilots in the 80s.

Quoting mayor (Reply 104): Doesn't make any difference to me........I've already put my time in at DL. I'm just curious and, frankly, I thought I'd get a more intelligent discussion out of it.

How many Delta flights get cancelled because of a lack of qualified pilots in their hiring pool?

Quoting mayor (Reply 93): I know that the pilots pay in many other ways, also............we all did, some more than others, but the fact is.....we all did.

Quoting mayor (Reply 78): I know things are changing, but how many of those, now flying left seat, got much of their training and hours from the taxpayers, coming from the USAF, Navy & Marines? It's not like they paid for ALL of their own training

But look what you wrote! You seem to like to argue both sides of the point. In one post you complain about having to pay but in another post you agree that military pilots do pay. You can't have it both ways!

Quoting mayor (Reply 93): As can the experience and hours. All I'm saying is that if you've got two people competing for the same job......the first one has a college degree and a minimum number of hours and very little experience and the second has NO college degree, but many more hours than the first applicant in more types of a/c as well as, naturally, more experience.........WHICH one is the more qualified for the job, discounting the college degree requirement? Considering there seems to be a shortage of qualified pilots in the pool, doesn't it seem to make sense to open up the requirements, a bit to give the airline more to choose from?

I don't think your scenario is where DL is today. DL is not having a shortage of "qualified" applicants. There are plenty of applicants who meet DL's minimum qualifications. In fact, you will find, the average new hire exceeds the requirements by quite a large margin. In that situation, I'd have no problem with the pilot with fewer hours. Less "bad habits" to unlearn.

Quoting JoeCanuck (Reply 83): Oh please. It takes just as much skill, (many would argue more), to hand fly an ILS approach down to minimums in a Caravan than a 777...and the Caravan pilot doesn't have any autoland to back him up. He's flying that puppy all the way down.

Yes, you are correct, but the Caravan pilot is flying the aircraft down to CAT I minimums while the 777 crew is flying the aircraft down to CAT IIIB minimums after a 15 hour flight. You are really comparing apples to oranges. While the mechanics are the same, the other factors are completely different.

Quoting JoeCanuck (Reply 83): If you can grab a handful of cash, go for it...but don't pretend that flying an airplane is a mystical calling. Very few people flunk out of flying school. The globe is littered with wreckage caused by crappy pilots who made top dollar flying for airlines.

I have to ask, what planet are you living on? How can you make a statement such as "Very few people flunk out of flying school"? In the military that's not the case, and in the civilian world that isn't true either. We can argue semantics all day but in the real world the money is taken for flying lessons and it just runs out because you are too incompetent to get your ratings or you realize you are not up to snuff and just give up. Also your portrayal of wreckage around the world is just laughable! You really need to get out more!!!

Quoting MSPNWA (Reply 107): That's not the point. The point is true negotiations. The past union leadership was so weak and unprofessional for that job that negotiations really didn't take place. This is the first time is a while (ever?) that DL management has had to face that.

This is complete nonsense. You've not been party to any of those negotiations ever. How do you feel qualified to comment on them?

You really ought to take a step back from the Delta threads. Your bias is ridiculous.

The bigger they are the harder they fall. It's not impossible for DL to go the way of EA.
Unions and management must be reasonable,in there demands.

It is odd that unions have pretty well decimated except for highly paid people. And even there only certain categories in which political power or threats of destroying employers is a possibility.

If unions are ever to be generally rehabbed it seems to me that striking over wages should be subject to a cap, perhaps today for about $100,000 per year.

Its sounds like many of you think that if the pilots got a substantial raise (say ~30% over three years), DL is somehow in jepardy of failing. That is silly. Look at pilot wages vs the total expense sheet for this carrier. Next look at the profit curve since the last contract signing in 2012. The sky won't fall if the pilots get their way and I find it strange that so many are so negative towards a group negotiating for better pay and work rules.

I'm sure the pilots who fly for DL prefer them to anyone else. They should for many reasons among which is the management team at DL; its forged a path that frankly leads the industry. There is no incongruity in enjoying working for a company and not wanting to take whatever management wants to toss you way in a work contract.

Quoting frmrCapCadet (Reply 113): It is odd that unions have pretty well decimated except for highly paid people.

Most union leaders -- and I'm talking about executive leaders, not shop stewards -- are much more interested in their own renumeration than that of their membership. As a result they have long been willing to trade fewer jobs for higher wages. Just look at the UAW, Teamsters, etc. Higher wages = higher union dues = more money in union leaders' pockets, even if there are fewer and fewer members.

Quoting mmo (Reply 110): In one post you complain about having to pay but in another post you agree that military pilots do pay. You can't have it both ways!

When I was talking about pay, I was talking strictly about monetary compensation, not all the other ways they can "pay". Once you mentioned all the other way, I understood what you were talking about. Sorry for the confusion.

Quoting mmo (Reply 110): I don't think your scenario is where DL is today. DL is not having a shortage of "qualified" applicants. There are plenty of applicants who meet DL's minimum qualifications. In fact, you will find, the average new hire exceeds the requirements by quite a large margin. In that situation, I'd have no problem with the pilot with fewer hours. Less "bad habits" to unlearn.

Just curious, but I can remember any number of threads on here, in the last few years, talking about a pilot shortage because of retirements, fewer pilots coming out of the military, etc. Has that all changed, now?

As far as pilots having fewer hours being more desirable, perhaps they ALL should start out from scratch. Think that would go over well?

Quoting IPFreely (Reply 115): Most union leaders -- and I'm talking about executive leaders, not shop stewards -- are much more interested in their own renumeration than that of their membership. As a result they have long been willing to trade fewer jobs for higher wages. Just look at the UAW, Teamsters, etc. Higher wages = higher union dues = more money in union leaders' pockets, even if there are fewer and fewer members.

I am trying to determine just what you issue is with DL and ALPA. Just what unions and what positions are you talking about? Do you know how ALPA dues are structured? I would say from your posts you don't have a clue!

Quoting mayor (Reply 116): Just curious, but I can remember any number of threads on here, in the last few years, talking about a pilot shortage because of retirements, fewer pilots coming out of the military, etc. Has that all changed, now?

The big shortage is on the regional level. Traditionally, they were staffed by "low time pilots". However now with recent changes after some well publicized accidents, Congress and the FAA mandated an ATP was required. I have friends still with the majors and there is no shortage at that level of the Majors.

Quoting mayor (Reply 116): As far as pilots having fewer hours being more desirable, perhaps they ALL should start out from scratch. Think that would go over well

Then what do you do with military pilots? As it is, all new hire pilots start at the bottom of the seniority list. And I didn't say what you have quoted me as saying. I answered a very specific question you asked. If you were to rephrase the question so you had 2 pilots both with college degrees and the only difference was hours, I'd hire the pilot with more hours. You are trying to fit everyting in a nice little box when it's much more complicated.

Quoting IPFreely (Reply 115): Most union leaders -- and I'm talking about executive leaders, not shop stewards -- are much more interested in their own renumeration than that of their membership. As a result they have long been willing to trade fewer jobs for higher wages. Just look at the UAW, Teamsters, etc. Higher wages = higher union dues = more money in union leaders' pockets, even if there are fewer and fewer members.

Actually the dynamics are more complicated than you suggest. We had a dockworkers strike here on the west coast last year. The highest paid members were the force behind the strike. They were interested in preserving their unreasonably high wages. Many union members were pretty unhappy about it, and would rather have had the union bargaining for more new hires, and continuing the normal high wages. Meantime teamsters have been decimated at the docks, and contract truck drivers, mostly immigrants, are getting less than minimum wage.

Hence the drive in Washington State to up the minimum wage. We are moving, city by city, to $15/hour. Alaska Airlines is fighting it tooth and nail.

Quoting copter808 (Reply 92): BUT, during the lean years when the airline is LOSING money,

.....they should trim operations to affordable levels dictated by the market place versus attempting to continue as normal by having staff take cuts.
One of the few things I agree with Doug Parker on, leave folks salaries alone.
When the airline is profitable I prefer profit sharing and bonuses versus higher or high level of salary increases, usually all sections of the economy do not grow in sync.
Example look at the oil industry today, a few years ago they were raking in massive profits and everyone was pushing their political representatives to do something, anyone sorry for them now?

Its a cycle, increase salaries for example will minimize or eliminate the savings from lower oil prices, folks will then drive more since the price at the pump is going down, unless the government increases taxes to offset, there is a limit to how much the price of air travel can remain unchanged.

Quoting MMO (Reply 117): And I didn't say what you have quoted me as saying. I answered a very specific question you asked.

I was referring to this, specific statement.....

Quoting mmo (Reply 110): In that situation, I'd have no problem with the pilot with fewer hours. Less "bad habits" to unlearn.

Using this logic, the fewer the hours, the more desirable the pilot, correct?



I realize that they all start at the bottom of the seniority list.............I was talking about the number of hours, not seniority. I guess I was being a little facetious when I said they could start from scratch, but I was talking about their hours, not their seniority.

Quoting threeifbyair (Reply 40): Kind of hard for any other DL workers to threaten a strike since they don't belong to unions. The pilots do, and they are taking advantage of that leverage.

Leverage really i think not having a Union is plenty of leverage,if DL doesn't treat us right we vote in a Union simple,been with DL 21yrs haven't felt the need for a union yet  .

If you look at what the typical pilot qualifications are for those being hired at say Delta, United and American are these days you would find exceptionally well qualified pilots with an average of 4000+ hours, a BS degree or Masters in many cases. I now that Delta even looks at your grade point average in college, along with outside activities that you may have participated in. The former military pilots score typically high with an adjusted hours scale for those who have spent their military flying in single seat jets. For those with civil aviation backgrounds things like Line Check Airman, multiple type ratings and previous Part 121 experience are heavily weighted requirements for these applicants. Simply put they are looking for the very best employees to fill the those seats on their aircraft. Make perfectly good sense.

Now having said that, I know for a fact that in Delta's case they are looking a those pilots that may not have class A, top of the stack, but meet or exceed the published minimums. An example might a military pilot coming right off active duty having flown multiple F18 tours off a carrier and in turn does not have an ATP, but does have the written. Delta recognizes the fact that getting an actual ATP and type rating is not likely thus they will bend to accommodate this applicant so as to let them get the ATP and type rating during their initial check out on what ever their initial assignment brings.

Along with all of this Delta has an interview process that is infamous within the airline community. I have known at least two water walkers that have failed this portion of the hiring process the first time around.

Glad I'm not looking for an airline job today as the competition is brutal.

Quoting delimit (Reply 111): This is complete nonsense. You've not been party to any of those negotiations ever. How do you feel qualified to comment on them? You really ought to take a step back from the Delta threads. Your bias is ridiculous.

Don't be a hypocrite with the bias talk.

I'd suggest you start your education on the matter by studying the papers and talking to pilots about the recent "negotiations" that led to the ousting of the union leadership. They didn't even have professional negotiators working for them, and it showed. It was a very weak, out-of-touch union that was easily persuaded by management. No more evidence is needed than, in a time of record profits, the MEC sent to vote a TA that saved DL money. Hopefully that's changed. Maybe RA and the gang will have to work a bit for what they want now.

So, how do you know that what I've said is not the case? Where is your evidence?

Quoting MSPNWA (Reply 123): No more evidence is needed than, in a time of record profits, the MEC sent to vote a TA that saved DL money.

Whether it saved DL money or not, if you asked those same pilots, who turned the TA, down, they'll tell you that it wasn't about the money, but many other things, so it really didn't make a difference if it saved DL money or not.

Quoting MSPNWA (Reply 123): Where is your evidence?

Where is YOUR evidence? You rarely have any that isn't biased.

Quoting mayor (Reply 124): Whether it saved DL money or not, if you asked those same pilots, who turned the TA, down, they'll tell you that it wasn't about the money, but many other things, so it really didn't make a difference if it saved DL money or not.

In the end the contract was voted down for "money". It gave up far too many concessions in an environment that gave no leverage to management to do so. You have to understand that "money" stands for more than just pay rates. It's benefits, work rules, and quality of life too. The pilot group is waking up to their management and won't take whatever the boss says.

Quoting mayor (Reply 124): Where is YOUR evidence? You rarely have any that isn't biased.

More attacking the poster and not the post. Well, thanks for the fallacy to provide more evidence that I'm correct. I've already stated plenty of factual evidence, with no one able to bring up any of their own to counter.

Quoting mayor (Reply 120): Using this logic, the fewer the hours, the more desirable the pilot, correct?

Again, I will try to put this in perspective. You have 2 pilots for 1 job. They have identical qualifications, with the exception of one pilot does not have a college degree. You take the pilot with the degree.

Another situation with two identically qualified pilots. Both have college degrees but one pilot has 2000 hours while the other pilot has 5000 hours. You hire the higher time pilot and offer the other pilot the class behind the first pilot. Hiring pilots is not black and white. You have to look at the simulator evaluation, the interview performance.

With respect to your statement above, that is just ridiculous and there is now a minimum qualification required.

Quoting BravoOne (Reply 101): CRM was developed for the medical profession way before it was embraced by the airlines here in the US. There is/was a good reason for that.

I believe it was the other way round:

Quote: Crew Resource Management (CRM) was introduced in the aviation industry during a NASA workshop in 1979, designed as a training program to improve air travel safety and reduce the increasing number of fatal accidents attributable to human error. Studies had found that the primary cause of the majority of aviation accidents occurring at that time were due to human error. The leading causes of which were failures of interpersonal communication, leadership and decision-making within the high-risk cockpit. Today, organizations around the world have begun to adopt Crew Resource Management in the healthcare industry. Safer Healthcare has been working with hospitals since 1999 to formalize Crew Resource Management program training, coaching and integration. To date, we have worked with over 500 hospitals worldwide to create and enhance patient safety culture and create high reliability using Lean process improvements and CRM concepts.

Quoting MSPNWA (Reply 125): Quoting mayor (Reply 124): Whether it saved DL money or not, if you asked those same pilots, who turned the TA, down, they'll tell you that it wasn't about the money, but many other things, so it really didn't make a difference if it saved DL money or not. In the end the contract was voted down for "money". It gave up far too many concessions in an environment that gave no leverage to management to do so. You have to understand that "money" stands for more than just pay rates. It's benefits, work rules, and quality of life too. The pilot group is waking up to their management and won't take whatever the boss says.

I believe I stated that, just in a different way.........go back and look at the posts on here, from when they rejected the TA and notice what the DL pilots were saying........they said it wasn't about the "money", but about work rules, scope, benefits, profit sharing, etc. They, themselves separated money out from the rest and didn't lump it all together as you have. Apparently, only in your mind are those things considered money, but you're not a pilot are you?

Quoting MMO (Reply 126): Another situation with two identically qualified pilots. Both have college degrees but one pilot has 2000 hours while the other pilot has 5000 hours. You hire the higher time pilot and offer the other pilot the class behind the first pilot. Hiring pilots is not black and white. You have to look at the simulator evaluation, the interview performance.

Funny, you, yourself, claimed that you would rather have a low time pilot because they would have less to unlearn.

Quoting mayor (Reply 120): Quoting mmo (Reply 110): In that situation, I'd have no problem with the pilot with fewer hours. Less "bad habits" to unlearn. Using this logic, the fewer the hours, the more desirable the pilot, correct?

Guess you missed the sarcasm in this, eh? Sorry

Quoting MMO (Reply 126): Quoting mayor (Reply 120): Using this logic, the fewer the hours, the more desirable the pilot, correct? Again, I will try to put this in perspective. You have 2 pilots for 1 job. They have identical qualifications, with the exception of one pilot does not have a college degree. You take the pilot with the degree. Another situation with two identically qualified pilots. Both have college degrees but one pilot has 2000 hours while the other pilot has 5000 hours. You hire the higher time pilot and offer the other pilot the class behind the first pilot. Hiring pilots is not black and white. You have to look at the simulator evaluation, the interview performance. With respect to your statement above, that is just ridiculous and there is now a minimum qualification required.

I understand all that and I also understand that is how things are now........how the system is set up. I just thought a little flexibility might help the situation, but I now understand that there is not a mainline shortage as had been predicted a few years ago.

Quoting BravoOne (Reply 122): If you look at what the typical pilot qualifications are for those being hired at say Delta, United and American are these days you would find exceptionally well qualified pilots with an average of 4000+ hours, a BS degree or Masters in many cases.

I would be willing to bet that 99.9% of all those being hired have a bachelors or higher. The people being put into class have truly impressive resumes.

A ton of check airmen, military pilots, instructors, chief pilots, etc. A few FOs from the regionals get hired but they have extensive volunteer experience with ALPA (new hire pilot mentors, scheduling committee, etc.), outside organizations, or did something in a non-flying capacity, and a pile of recommendations. 1500 hours (unless single pilot military) isn't going to cut it.

Quoting MSPNWA (Reply 125): More attacking the poster and not the post. Well, thanks for the fallacy to provide more evidence that I'm correct. I've already stated plenty of factual evidence, with no one able to bring up any of their own to counter.

You are obviously biased. You've got years post history being unfailingly critical of Delta here. Do you think people don't recognize an obvious pattern?

Let's go back and reread your initial claim, shall we?

Quoting MSPNWA (Reply 99): They won't get 40% in an agreement, but it's a fair play for starting true negotiations--something DL hasn't had to deal with.

No qualifiers.

Quoting mayor (Reply 108): No it's not. If you knew as much about Delta as you think you do, you'd realize that DL went thru this with the pilots in the 80s.

Already proven incorrect.

Quoting MSPNWA (Reply 107): That's not the point. The point is true negotiations. The past union leadership was so weak and unprofessional for that job that negotiations really didn't take place. This is the first time is a while (ever?) that DL management has had to face that.

Still not bothering to qualify your post (hint: the past union leadership is all of them without qualification), so already factually incorrect, but hey, why not double down for fun?

Quoting MSPNWA (Reply 123): I'd suggest you start your education on the matter by studying the papers and talking to pilots about the recent "negotiations" that led to the ousting of the union leadership.

I'd suggest you support your own argument; otherwise it's just you posting random bile. Again.

Quoting MSPNWA (Reply 123): I'd suggest you start your education on the matter by studying the papers and talking to pilots about the recent "negotiations" that led to the ousting of the union leadership. They didn't even have professional negotiators working for them, and it showed. It was a very weak, out-of-touch union that was easily persuaded by management. No more evidence is needed than, in a time of record profits, the MEC sent to vote a TA that saved DL money.

This is not evidence, it is opinion. Feel free to post actual evidence. Transcripts would work.

Quoting MSPNWA (Reply 123): So, how do you know that what I've said is not the case? Where is your evidence?

I'm not the one who made the ridiculous original comment. You're the one claiming this is the first time Delta has had to deal with "real" negotiation. The onus is on you to support that.

Quoting dlflynhayn (Reply 121): Leverage really i think not having a Union is plenty of leverage,if DL doesn't treat us right we vote in a Union simple,been with DL 21yrs haven't felt the need for a union yet  .

You have the worst health insurance among the major airlines and they just gave you a 14% base pay increase while cutting your profit sharing (which in 2-3 years will end up costing you money). To be honest, Delta flight attendants don't feel like they need a union because they don't understand just how much they're getting screwed. Something that's a pay cut is being viewed as a huge pay raise. Delta management loves dumb workers!

Quoting mayor (Reply 128): I believe I stated that, just in a different way.........go back and look at the posts on here, from when they rejected the TA and notice what the DL pilots were saying........they said it wasn't about the "money", but about work rules, scope, benefits, profit sharing, etc. They, themselves separated money out from the rest and didn't lump it all together as you have. Apparently, only in your mind are those things considered money, but you're not a pilot are you?

My knowledge from pilots came from first and second-hand thoughts about the TA - and they weren't from the Internet. But you'll find the same reasons there.

How in the world can you put "money" in one sentence and benefits and profit sharing in another? Anyone with financial/economics training needs to lump all the values together. The company does - it's called economic value of the contract. One trend I noticed was that pilots that didn't understand finance/economics (and there's surprisingly a lot of them - pilots in general aren't strong in those areas) tended to be more in favor of the TA. Those that did understand the concept of value generally turned it down.

Quoting delimit (Reply 131): You are obviously biased. You've got years post history being unfailingly critical of Delta here. Do you think people don't recognize an obvious pattern? Let's go back and reread your initial claim, shall we?

Resorting to ad hominems isn't going to win an argument. It's Logic 101. Stop being a hypocrite. I have a "bias", for certain reasons. You have a "bias", for certain reasons. It means nothing in the course of a debate. Facts are what matter.

Quoting delimit (Reply 131): No qualifiers.

Quoting delimit (Reply 131): I'm not the one who made the ridiculous original comment. You're the one claiming this is the first time Delta has had to deal with "real" negotiation. The onus is on you to support that.

If it's ridiculous, then refute it. Shouldn't a ridiculous comment be easy to do so?

We know that the previous union leadership team did not negotiate in the basic sense of the word. How long every member of that team had been in power, I do not know off the top of my head. We do know however that Moak and Donatelli had been in union leadership since the bankruptcy days. A quick search told me that. So that's evidence that DL, in its current state (which I was implying in the first place), has never faced hard negotiations. So you can split hairs if you want. Either way I've provided you some evidence in support of it.

Quoting delimit (Reply 131): This is not evidence, it is opinion. Feel free to post actual evidence. Transcripts would work.

Sorry, it's factual. Look it up. Do some research. I don't have time to post every document about every little demand you have. Besides, if I'm wrong it shouldn't be hard for you to refute it with factual evidence.

Quoting delimit (Reply 131): Already proven incorrect.

So now you're okay with a statement - this one without supporting evidence - from a "biased" source?

This is enough. Either you come up with evidence supporting your side of the story, that DL has not faced weak negotiations in the relevant past, or this dies right here. I'm done trying to debate with you as you've only been hypocritical and resorted to logical fallacies in this debate.

Quoting JoeCanuck (Reply 83): Oh please. It takes just as much skill, (many would argue more), to hand fly an ILS approach down to minimums in a Caravan than a 777...and the Caravan pilot doesn't have any autoland to back him up. He's flying that puppy all the way down. Sure, you have student loans to pay off and a few years of terrible pay to get to be systems operators at 200' agl, and then make excuses when one of the big boys club flies a perfectly good airplane into the ground because he forgot the, 'how to unstall an airplane', lesson from the first day of flying school. Most of the training is paid for by the airlines as part of employment. Bloody hell. When some jet jockey who is full of himself splats the plane into the bush, is the minimum pay folks in the back who save the lives of the few who survive. If you can grab a handful of cash, go for it...but don't pretend that flying an airplane is a mystical calling. Very few people flunk out of flying school. The globe is littered with wreckage caused by crappy pilots who made top dollar flying for airlines.

  

Thank you! Nuff said...

40% ... what a joke...

Quoting CARST (Reply 134): 40% ... what a joke...

Not really. It's just a negotiation bargaining point.

My old labour relations professor taught us that one entering a collective negotiation should have 3 positions on a single bargaining point. The first position, which is what you open with is your 'best case' scenario, and you have 2 fall back positions, one which you are going to be happy with anyways, and a bottom level. Basically, it would look like this:

I'm selling you a widget. I open the negotiations by asking for $40. However, I know that I'm comfortable settling for $35 for the widget, but the absolute minimum I would sell this widget is $30. Anything lower, I won't sell it to you.

Also, my labour relations professor also preached about having some throw-away bargaining points, basically a matter that you are willing to trade away for a stronger position on a more critical matter later. One such bargaining point could be the issue of increased sick leave; you open the negotiations with asking for 4 more days of sick leave per year, but you are OK with dropping the request for increased sick leave if you get say, a 5% increase in salary.

[Edited 2016-01-04 01:21:02]

Quoting MSPNWA (Reply 133): Resorting to ad hominems isn't going to win an argument. It's Logic 101. Stop being a hypocrite. I have a "bias", for certain reasons. You have a "bias", for certain reasons. It means nothing in the course of a debate. Facts are what matter.

That's not ad hominem fallacy. Go reread what that actually means.

Quoting MSPNWA (Reply 133): If it's ridiculous, then refute it. Shouldn't a ridiculous comment be easy to do so?

You made an definitive statement. I questioned it. It's up to you to support it.

Quoting MSPNWA (Reply 133): Sorry, it's factual. Look it up. Do some research. I don't have time to post every document about every little demand you have. Besides, if I'm wrong it shouldn't be hard for you to refute it with factual evidence.

You're the one who is making a claim. The responsibility to defend that claim is yours.

Quoting MSPNWA (Reply 133): This is enough. Either you come up with evidence supporting your side of the story, that DL has not faced weak negotiations in the relevant past, or this dies right here. I'm done trying to debate with you as you've only been hypocritical and resorted to logical fallacies in this debate.

Consistently trying to shift the burden of proof to the people questioning your claim is just evasion.



[Edited 2016-01-04 06:57:16]

I don't know. If the contract is still open then Delta might impose large paycuts. Without the certainty of making money, there is.

Quoting MSPNWA (Reply 133):

This has been going on for 75 years. Neither side is very professional in terms of financial risks. The pilots are not. Airline management is good at managing airlines but, if they cared about long term returns they would never have accepted a position at an airline. Even the investors aren't really with it. This ends up being a bumbling blunder by all parties on a very predictable cycle. I expect DL pilots want their 300k and then 400k before the company potentially liquidates in 7-8 years, amid blood curdling accusations of deception. As has happened dozens of times before. The superstitious will talk about "moral outrage" etc.

Quoting Flighty (Reply 137): I expect DL pilots want their 300k and then 400k before the company potentially liquidates in 7-8 years, amid blood curdling accusations of deception. As has happened dozens of times before. The superstitious will talk about "moral outrage" etc.

Maybe I'm missing something, but what planet are you from?

Quoting MSPNWA (Reply 133): How in the world can you put "money" in one sentence and benefits and profit sharing in another? Anyone with financial/economics training needs to lump all the values together. The company does - it's called economic value of the contract. One trend I noticed was that pilots that didn't understand finance/economics (and there's surprisingly a lot of them - pilots in general aren't strong in those areas) tended to be more in favor of the TA. Those that did understand the concept of value generally turned it down.

Because that's what the rank and file did when they looked at the TA. I'll type this more slowly so you can get it......the pilots, themselves, said that it wasn't about the money (pay)..........they said it was about benefits, work rules, etc............separating money from benefits, etc. Get it?

Quoting MSPNWA (Reply 133): So now you're okay with a statement - this one without supporting evidence - from a "biased" source?

May be without supporting evidence, but I don't suppose this was something that anyone wrote down, at all. All I know is that when I was working for DL, in the 80s, there were some contentious negotiations, which throws out the window your theory that DL has never gone thru this before. I'm sure there were other times, also. So, in this case, you'll just have to believe what I say is true, "biased" though it is.
 

Quoting OOer (Reply 132): You have the worst health insurance among the major airlines and they just gave you a 14% base pay increase while cutting your profit sharing (which in 2-3 years will end up costing you money). To be honest, Delta flight attendants don't feel like they need a union because they don't understand just how much they're getting screwed. Something that's a pay cut is being viewed as a huge pay raise. Delta management loves dumb workers!

Im fine maybe you need to save money better like me  ..Oh the greed in this country is so real..I've said this before but 21 yrs ago i had a choice to work for DL or UA i chose DL,ten years later AA offered me a job but turned it down cause working under a Union contract didn't seem like the right thing to do so i turned the job offer down and remained at DL,i have friends/family at UA/AA and i seem to be the only one happy with my job Dumb workers hahahaha..

[Edited 2016-01-04 19:21:17]

[Edited 2016-01-04 19:21:53]

After reviewing OOer's profile and photos posted of an NWA 747 being repainted in Delta colors, I would wager to guess that we may be getting the perspective of an IAM former member/supporter who is infuriated that many of us don't want the IAM. That's fine, But , to insinuate that we are stupid and do not have a perspective beyond the next 'bag of popcorn', is a bit insulting.

Ask many of our former PA or TW colleagues how they feel about the IAM and you'll get an ear full.

We can always bring a union in, but its almost impossible to get one out (except for another one). It's like a roach motel.

[Edited 2016-01-04 20:25:01]